JPF Home Page Forums Lyric and MP3 Feedback Lyric Feedback Forum 3 "Grounds For Goodbye" (His version)2 duet versions

ended

ended and both are shelved

Hi Folks,

This song, 'Grounds For Goodbye' was my original song. It was
posted on (bmi songwriter101). I requested help to turn my song
into a duet type song..Gary Gray ask to co-write my song. He
posted the new version under just his name alone???? Now I see
that he also came to the Just Plain Folks forum and did the same
thing. Please correct this mistake Mr. Gray. It's not okay...

Frances Williams

my versions are 2 duets and the version you did was a solo plus mine are formatted entirely different to your solo version

Hmmm. This is not good. I don't know who the authority on this would be, but ya'll should take it there.

Just for comparison. Acknowledging a co-write would seem the gentlemanly - and ethically responsible - thing to do.

Donna
------------------------------------------
(c) All Rights Reserved
Frances Williams
Oct. 09, 2008

‘Grounds For Goodbye’

V1)
The say every love and life has its seasons
And every broken heart has its reasons
So honey you don’t have to ask me..why
You’ve given me grounds to say goodbye

V2)
I worshipped the ground you walked on
You know I was so in love..with you...
Would have given you all the world..
Everything with a fence...around it

Or Baby I would have tried to.......

Chorus)
But there you stand..telling me
you have found someone new
So when I turn..and walk away
You don’t need to ask me why
You’ve given me all the grounds

Tag)
Grounds to say goodbye
Yeah, baby grounds for goodbye

V3)
The Judge said I made my case
I wipe the tears from my face
We devide our things..take off our rings
and you don’t have to ask me why
You’ve given me grounds for goodbye

Repeat Chorus)

Tag)
Yeah, Baby grounds for goodbye
all I need for a long goodbye
Grounds to say goodbye

______________________________________________________________


Extra Verses if this could be a duet song!!

V1)
Darlin’ I know that it’s all my fault
I am the one..who was to blame
I broke..all our sacred wedding vows
When I played that ol’ cheatin’ game

V2)
Darlin’ I’m beggin’ you to forgive me
please let us give our love..one more try
If you say no..I’ll understand the reasons why

Tag)
I’ve given you..grounds to say goodbye
All the grounds to say goodbye..goodbye

Comments and help will be greatly appreciated.
Fran Williams

Nov 27, 08 | 4:09 pm

It looks pretty obvious that it's the same song with some changes made, but Frances' statement that Gary asked to be the co writer to turn it into a duet would seem to remove any doubt that it should be a co write, (If there was any doubt)
JMO
Wy

I stand by it being mine as far as the duets of it and like it was pointed out to me you cannot copyright a thought or idea or a title and have nothing further to argue or discuss on that matter of it

I'd say that Donna is CLEARLY right...wow!It appears that the possibility of a duet was even mentioned...
I,ve heard of things like this,but to witness it is actually a little scary.I hoped that this issue can be worked out fairly,because it does seem that Frances has a great idea for a song.

ditto to what I previously said

"Here is the male version of the song Fran got me interested in doing it might needs some more tweaking if it does it’ll get done,also will be posting the female version too, both songs are duets.

“Grounds For Goodbye “(Him version)

(Both)
They say love and life has it’s sea--sons
that ev’rything must change or end
but when I try tellin my heart these rea--sons
I find myself starting over again

(Her)
I worshipped the ground that you walked on
fell so deep in love with you
I would’ve given you the world if you wanted it
without even askin me to

(Him)
Darlin’ I know that it’s my own fault
and I ‘m the only one to blame
I broke the sacred trust between us
when I played that ‘ol cheatin’ game

(Chorus) (her)
But here I stand telling you that if you found somebody new
you don’t need to explain it or lie.…
so when you turn to walk away think of words you didn’t say
they were the grounds for our goodbye

(Him)
Darlin’ I’m beggin’ you please forgive me
won’t you give me 1 more try
I know if we find love together
there won’t be any grounds for goodbyes

(Her)
I need more than words to believe you
to fix the love we once had
my heart and mind needs assurance
your good intentions won’t turn bad


(Chorus) (Her)
But here I stand telling you that if you found somebody new
you don’t need to explain it or lie.…
so when you turn to walk away think of words you didn’t say
they were the grounds for our goodbye

(Her)
The judge said it’s time to divide things
as I wiped the last tear from my face
he can take back the ring that he gave me
it’s meaning has become a disgrace

(Chorus) (Her)
But here I stand telling you that if you found somebody new
you don’t need to explain it or lie.…
so when you turn to walk away think of words you didn’t say
they became the grounds for our goodbye
so when you turn to walk away think of words you didn’t say
they became the grounds for our goodbye

© “Grounds For Goodbye” 11-29-2008 by Gary D. Gray All Rights Reserved (BMI)

Dec 06, 08 | 12:20 pm
Frances Williams

Hi Gary,

You did a good job on turning my song ‘Grounds For Goodbye’ into a duet song. Why did you post only your name on the copyright? I told you via my e-mail that I was going on a trip. I also offered several more suggestions for the song, and would get back in touch when I got my new laptop on line…

Fran Williams

Dec 06, 08 | 5:38 pm
g gray

lol I’m sorry that’s easily fixed

Dec 06, 08 | 5:49 pm
g gray


“Grounds For Goodbye “(Him version)

(Both)
They say love and life has it’s sea--sons
that ev’rything must change or end
but when I try tellin my heart these rea--sons
I find myself starting over again

(Her)
I worshipped the ground that you walked on
fell so deep in love with you
I would’ve given you the world if you wanted it
without even askin me to

(Him)
Darlin’ I know that it’s my own fault
and I ‘m the only one to blame
I broke the sacred trust between us
when I played that ‘ol cheatin’ game

(Chorus) (her)
But here I stand telling you that if you found somebody new
you don’t need to explain it or lie.…
so when you turn to walk away think of words you didn’t say
they were the grounds for our goodbye

(Him)
Darlin’ I’m beggin’ you please forgive me
won’t you give me 1 more try
I know if we find love together
there won’t be any grounds for goodbyes

(Her)
I need more than words to believe you
to fix the love we once had
my heart and mind needs assurance
your good intentions won’t turn bad


(Chorus) (Her)
But here I stand telling you that if you found somebody new
you don’t need to explain it or lie.…
so when you turn to walk away think of words you didn’t say
they were the grounds for our goodbye

(Her)
The judge said it’s time to divide things
as I wiped the last tear from my face
he can take back the ring that he gave me
it’s meaning has become a disgrace

(Chorus) (Her)
But here I stand telling you that if you found somebody new
you don’t need to explain it or lie.…
so when you turn to walk away think of words you didn’t say
they became the grounds for our goodbye
so when you turn to walk away think of words you didn’t say
they became the grounds for our goodbye

© “Grounds For Goodbye” 11-29-2008 by Gary D. Gray /Fran Williams All Rights Reserved (BMI)

never thought I'd see song theft in motion. It's the same song. You cant copyright a title is correct. But u also cant take Sweet Home Alabama change a few words to a duet and call it your own.

The choruses r identical. As well as the rest. If u didnt have access to original version it would b a fluke coincidence... but.. it doesnt seem to be the case.

I thought that the laws that state that a title or idea is not copyrightable were made to cover those who use the idea or title unknowingly and without realizing that something just like it or very close even exists,but not to cover for someone who knowingly and blatantly takes the ideas of another and calls them their own without even giving the originator any credit.This just doesnt seem right to me at all.In fact it's pretty much stealing.Its seems that Frances had a beautiful song that may have needed a little tweaking,and the "tweaker"tried to take all of the credit.I'm not trying to be mean at all Gary,it is not my nature,but I feel in my heart that you are a Godly man,if that is true,then I know that God will lay it upon your heart to do the right thing.
Michelle

rather than to continue and hash this out I will shelve both my versions of it and she can use her original version(as it was then) as she sees fits without using any of mine which I will shelve indefinately and not persue any further how's that? are ya'll happy now?

you could do that but I think she was just looking for acknowledgement and recognition on her work. She had no qualms crediting you. Why the problem the other way? Isnt that the idea of a co-write?

I don't believe that intent is a factor in the law. It is legally permissible to knowingly use a title or idea. It is not legally permissible to use too many of the same words or sections of melody. Whether you not you do that is up to a jury, it's not totally black and white.

Bill

Wow! I don't think anyone is asking you to pull your versions, Gary. Just admit that it is a co-write and move on. There's an old saying "It OK to be wrong, but it's not OK to STAY wrong".

Kevin

There's nothing to 'hash out', Gary. And it has nothing to do with making anyone 'happy'. It appears to be song theft - or at least major plagiarism - on your part.

I'd recommend that Frances contact BMI to see exactly whose name is on the copyright.

I hope you'll have more respect for any JPF member with whom you offer to co-write.

Donna

Hi Folks,

I wanted to thank everyone for your kind words of wisdom.
It has never been my style to cause trouble before, but
this was not right. I'm not quite sure what caused this
to happen. A title,hooklines and storylines are not the
the same as a Song with verses, chorus, tag and etc.

Sad little girl,

Fran

Hi Fran,
We are glad you are here.I hope this wont discourage you in any way from hanging out here.JPFs is a great place.There are so many wonderful,helpful people here.We hope that you will stick around.
Michelle

If it hasn't been reported already, I think Brian Austin Whitney should know about this situation and weigh in on it.

Be sure to check with BMI, Fran, or make a point of registering your original material if you haven't already.

The good news is that you still have the original lyric. If you decide to venture down the co-write road again, you can seek out someone this time with talent and integrity.

There are excellent lyricists here whom you could ask.

Donna

Welcome Fran,
The problem is that something like this reflects on the whole board and it's a GOOD board.
At least it got a thorough airing.
People who've been here a while know what we're like, but new people might think poorly of the whole board
I hope you stick around a while and see for yourself what we're like
Wy

As a rule of thumb, if someone seems to be justifying taking some or all of someone elses work and then calling it their own, I would avoid ever working with that person going forward. Whether or not that happened here is up to interpretation as I don't have all the facts and some info has been deleted.

Never write with someone unless you are comfortable with then and unless you've clearly spelled out the terms of the colloboration. Ideas are not always protected, but presentations of those ideas certainly are. It's up to a judge and possibly jury to determine the what is infringement. Stu may be able to offer non specific advice on these topics from a legel point of view.

Brian

I am taking songwriting classes from a PRO. singer/songwriter, who has sold stuff to Allison Kraus, among others. We had talked about this very thing in class.
She said that even if the person writes only one line of the song, if you worked on it together, it is a co-write, and especially if you agreed to coll. Otherwise, in Nashville, at least, your name will be MUD if you try to list the song as totally yours. Now if someone on this forum gives free suggestions, I think that is different... BUT if they almost re-write the song for you, with major idea changes, I would not feel right, going and then listing the song as mine.... unless it was agreed upon.

I hope you guys get it worked out. It is a hard situation. Good luck~
Kimberly

Fran--

You and I are friends. We've embraced and I like you. Nobody should do this to you. I suggest that if you don't sue Gary for plagerism, you'll only encourage him to do it to someone else, kinda like the rape victim who doesn't report it. You must, Fran, in all good conscience proceed, because Gary refuses to aknowledge reality.

JD

why are you trying to aggravate me JD? I said don't post anything to me or I'll turn you for for trying to start something!!

JD: Encouraging someone to sue in this situation is like encouraging someone to go bankrupt. There is no money to be made (damages) and you would only spend $20,000+ on legal fees for nothing.

Now I wish that gary would just have admitted wrongdoing, apologized and moved on. But he didn't -- we all know what he did and he will forever be known by this action he took. Sounds like pretty high punishment to me.

Kevin

this lyric has been on the shelf and will never be used in any manner by me or anyone, why it was brought forward is only known to those who did it

somehow this doesn't suprise me, but I won't go into details now

seems like some people either can't read or they are looking to start trouble which is it? So I'll re-post the words again!

this lyric has been on the shelf and will never be used in any manner by me or anyone, why it was brought forward is only known to those who did it

Hi JD,

Thank you for the comments. I am having several of my songs
made ready for the market, by a very good singer/songwriter.
My song,"Grounds For Goodbye" will be included, and its very
good! None of Mr.Gray's lyric words will be included in my
song. Mr. Gray is not to use any of my song!!!

Best,
Fran Williams

Hi Folks,

I wanted to thank everyone who commented on this song.
This situation could have been avoided, and I hope that
it will never happen again.. In good faith, I wanted
the right thing to be done.. I gave Mr. Gray a very
good chance to correct the problem. This is my orginial
song, and I will follow-thru, and get it recorded!!

Best,
Fran Williams

Fran,

Feel free to post here, we are a friendly bunch. None of us had ever seen song theft in action, so thanks for bringing it to our attention. I believe Gary is no longing posting on JPF, so don't hesitate to jump in.

Kevin