JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Mentor Questions Forum What do I owe my helpers?

If people make a lot of suggestions on the Lyric Feedback Forum and I use their help in the revision of my song, do I owe them co-writer rights to my song? I have searched the site, and I don't find a list of "agreements" I had to accept before becoming a member.(Of course some parts of the website are still under construction, so maybe I missed something everyone else already knows).

Unless there is a written co writer agreement between you and the concerned parties all you owe them is a thank you for the suggestions/help.

Hi Pam,

As said before-you owe the folks who offer suggestions nothing at all-cause they arent co-writers unless you say they are......all suggestions offered on the lyric or Mp3 board are Keep Or Sweep...co-writers split demo costs....so unless you specifically bring bring someone in on a demo and they agree to help pay for it-you have no obligation for writing credit or royalty payment if the song is picked by a music publisher or label.....

hope that eases your mind

good luck

Tom

Pam,

I think there are some risks involved. Very low risks, but risks nonetheless. As long as your songs don't go any where, then no problems will occur (LOL). If suddenly one of your lyrics was #1 on the radio -- who knows what will really happen? I wonder if this situation has ever occurred before on an internet forum song?

The alternative is to never post anything and where's the fun in that?

Kevin

Disturbing thought Kevin , but good point.

John

This comes up now and then. I contend that if some songwriter who posts on a peer critique website has a serious hit with a song that has been posted, the lawsuits will pile up like two NFL teams on a loose football.

Here's a question:

If a songwriter used one or two of your suggestions that you and, perhaps, others believe just "makes" the song, then that song becomes a #1 hit, making a LOT of money. What would you think? Now, don't answer that here, just think about it

That's why I always recommend that when critiquing someone's songs, people don't change the song without offering that change free and clear and say so in the post. Instead of doing rewrites and changing words, just say what the problem is and describe ways to make changes.

But either way, even if a songwriter writes a hit song all by theirself and never makes a change of even a comma placement, I would bet that if it was ever on a peer critique songwriting site, such as ours, that there would be a lot of "sour grapes" posts, claims, boasts, and probably even a lawsuit or two.

Every few months you'll read posts here by new members that claim their uncle actually wrote all of the Rolling Stones hits but had them stolen, somehow, and would like help to find out how to sue them. Or, there are posts by people who wrote a song called, "I Love You Baby" and heard a hit called "Baby, I Love You." and are positive that it was stolen from them. Now, just imagine people who actually had some internet interaction (now there's a song hook) with a songwriter who has a hit on a song that was posted while it was in the rewrite stage?

This is why you don't find hit writers on sites like these.

Now, don't get me wrong. I think our song crit sites are a great service to folks as a development tool. But, if I were posting songs here and was going to make even the slightest change based on someone's recommendation, I would ask, in public, if they wanted a cowrite, and then print out and keep a hard copy of the answer.

It might help newbies like me if this advice were given somewhere on the site so we know the risks before we get in a sticky situation.
Cheers!
Pam Bowen

Aw come on Mike,
That may be what "you'd" do, but if everybody did that, there'd be as many or more of "those" posts as there are songs posted now!! Sometimes a song is changed in accordance with 3 or 4 different peoples suggestions. It'd be a total mess.
Sure, it's "theoretically" possible that there'd be a big lawsuit, I might get struck by lightning tomorrow too <G>
IMO, KOS takes care of it very nicely.
Wy
(If anyone "knows' first hand ,of a major lawsuit arising from a posting on JPF that resulted in a big hit , I'd be interested in hearing about it)

Pam...Great question! Thanks for asking, because I have thought about this very thing. Everybody on this board seems to be very tight, but it's still a great question.


redwing

Pam,

I agree. I would suggest a "sticky" at the top of any peer crit forum, here or at other websites.

However, the reality is, as far as I can tell (and I've done a bit of casual research on this) there has never been a hit that was originally posted at a peer critique forum on an internet website. It's a scenario without fruition. So for the past several years it is a problem that hasn't happened.

For one thing, there are very few songs posted on websites that are even in the ballpark of hit material. For another, the vast, and I mean VAST majority of hits come from a lot of personal relationships developed with major players in the music industry. The songwriter who is writing hit quality songs and interacting with other hit songwriters and successful music biz folks, generally, has little time to be critiquing and posting on peer crit sites...and they will not be exposing themselves to possible lawsuits or nuisance harrassment.

So as a newbie, I wouldn't worry. I'd simply not use others' suggestions without communicating with them.

Wyman,

Yes, I said what I would do. Whatever anyone else does is up to them. I believe that any song I begin to write could be a hit, and treat them as such. When I make concrete suggestions about songs, I usually add in writing that they can use those suggestions free and clear. I never use others' suggestions without offering cowriting credit. Other folks can do whatever they wish.

Personally...I will ask someone to be a cowriter, if their sugg really made an impact on a song...now...if I use a sugg...sometimes I won't, that whole KOS part is typically when I don't. Of course, I've had some that come in and completely rewrite what I had...but it's still my basic lyric, just seriously tweaked, I would want them as a co.

I don't expect to be made a co, unless I'm asked and I agree to it. Some lyrics just don't hit me the way others do. SO, if I ever make a sugg to you, you may feel free to use it if you like, I expect nothing in return other than maybe some input on something I may post. Of course, there are some suggs folks may make, they may expect you to use them, then expect to be named a cowriter...find out a little about who you're accepting lines from...this may give you more insight as to what you may be willing to do.

Janice wrote a lyric, I loved the lyric, before I got to the second verse it had a melody I was singing, I sent it to her, I didn't expect to be a co on it, she made me one, but I really just liked the lyric and wanted to let her know how much. I don't mind being a cowriter with anyone...if they understand I may or may not have great sugguestions...just depends on the day.


The folks up above me here, they know what they are talking about and what to watch out for...what to do and not to do, me, I trust anyone until I have reason not to. (bumpkin, I suppose) But once burned, or tormented, I turn on em. (hehehe) I think it's just more of getting to know people and expectations...of course...if someone suggs, my song became a hit, and they spoke up then...well, I'm not greedy...but you'd have better made a great sugg...you and the other 10 folks, and be willing to cough up on the demo I had to pay for...=) (haha) Kidding, well, depends ont he cost...but anyway..I think you shoudl be clear on what you use, and what you don't. Opening up a lyric for a cowrite also means they may want to add, and add, or change...and that may not be what you are looking for.

Just where do we draw the line......a song can be a hit for a lot of reasons not just the lyrics and melody......It could have great production that tuns a mediocre song into a hit.....It could have a great arrangement...It could have a great instrumental solo.....All these things and more contribute to the song being a hit. Should everybody who contributed any part to the writing, performing, recording, mixing, and mastering also be cited as cowriters?
Example the James Bond famous guitar riff was an ad lib by a guitarists paid basic rates on a work for hire. He made nothng else out of it. Worse still most people do not know who he was.

Interesting about the James Bond guitar riff Jim. I see this co-write business can get a lot more complicated than I originally thought.

John

If they get paid it is a work for hire, that's it.

I've often had writers ask if I want a co-write for some suggestion of lyric they found valuable.

I generally answer that, "I hereby relinquish all legal right to the contributions I made to this lyric," and state that I intend to be legally bound by that, and advise them to print it out and put it in the file with the lyric for future reference, should a question ever arise.

I'm confident if they ever get it to market and it's a hit they'll remember me and, if there's anything they can and want to do for me at that time, they'll look me up. Otherwise, I see little reason to complicate things for them by insisting on a co-write status which would require my agreement in every move they make, unless I grant them authority to make legal commitments without further consultation from me.

I do suggest that it be formalized in such fashion, to preclude a confusing legal issue that may crop up just as a piece begins to make money, which would likely involve other people and companies and reflect badly on the songwriter whose credibility then falls into question, making it difficult to get others to work with them in future.

Sage counsel Gary...

I came on these boards a scant few months ago...and have received more help than I can possbily repay at this time..but I have learned to pay it forward...I don't have a lot to pay forward now but as we learn others will benefit from those who came before...IMO

Larry

This is quite an interesting thread!

Mike's comments scares the hell out of me, due to how lawsuit-happy Americans have a reputation of being over here. If you sue in Denmark you most likely won't even break even from paying your lawyer, but in the US that's a whole different business.

The rules of JPF is not protecting us members from these things, so I guess Mike's comments are valid. The JPF FAQ states:

-------- Start Quote

What are the rules of conduct for the forum?

Registration as a user implies acceptance of the following terms and conditions:
- Participants shall not post any material that is likely to cause offence, protected by copyright, trademark or other proprietary right - without the express permission of the owner of such copyright - or that contains personal contact information, phone numbers or addresses.
- Participants may not use the forums to post or transmit advertisements or commercial solicitations of any kind.
- The forum Administrators and Moderators have the right to edit, censor, delete or otherwise modify any posted message.
- This web site does not verify or guarantee the accuracy of the material posted to the forums or bear any responsibility for any loss, damage, or other liabilities caused by any posted message.

-------- End Quote

But then again, you can get sued for anything. Imagine the opposite: you get sued for giving bad advice in a thread on a song, with the aledged result that it DIDN'T become a hit!

Magne,

The nasty little secret about songwriting lawsuits are that no one wins on those either. The legal fees ALWAYS outway anything the writer would make out of a suit and the bad feelings and damage to a professional career are permanant.

The biggest lawsuit here, the "George Harrison" My Sweet Lord/He's So Fine" lawsuit in the 70's (that was settled in the late 80's) resulted in collusion between George Harrison's manager, Alan Klein, and the writers and publishers of the song "He's So Fine." After about 15 years of legal wrangling, Harrison was proved to subconsiously lifted the song from the original song, and did pay a fine. But then was awarded the publishing company of the original songs. So in the end, he paid the fine, to himself.

All of this legal mess we have all drifted into simply poisons the dialogue. And like everything else, just what we need in life is more negativity.

It's too bad.

MAB

[It's too bad] Well, that good to hear I thought you Americans were better at the dirty business. But Im glad we all suck at that

Nothing grows from negativity, not even sad ballads

I have not read any of the replies so excuse if I repeat or am on a different angle than the topic has evolved to. IMO you owe helpers nothing but a big thank you and a chance to repay the favour back some time in the future....Most if not all people offer help and advice here free and without any obligagtion. It is our duty and pleasure as musicians to help advise and teach others..... we are all on a learning curve. Any help I offer is free of charge and I expect nothing in return other than the satisfaction of having been of benefit to a fellow musician. I would like to hope that if anyone made the big time from help someone gave they would try in some way to repay the debt...I know I would. I have never signed any proper contract and I often laugh when people make so much out of legal issues and contracts. What is hard about equal splits or paying someone what they deserve forthe work done?

If you ever get a hit, you'll spend a lot of time in court no matter what...big money = lawsuits.

Go ahead and get a hit first! Get sued! It means you're making money.

Better still, be a little careful and make sure you win those lawsuits. Then you get to keep some of that money you make.

I don't know if any song posted on the net ever became a hit or not.
But a few years ago I read a lyric on another forum that I really liked. The line that stuck in my head was. "He put a bottle to his head and pulled the trigger". About a year later I heard a song on the radio with that line. I recognized it immediately.
I later went in search of the lyric but could not find it.

So I don't know if it was Whiskey Lullaby or not.

As far as the co-write question goes I don't think I would worry about it because it is highly unlikely any of us will ever write a song is posted here that becomes a hit .

But at a workshop in Nashville a few years ago an Entertainment attorney was speaking. He was asked the question.
His answer.
ANYONE who contributes a line to a song is a co-writer on a lyric. If that line is in writing and posted on a forum for other people to see it is a legal co-write. If it is written on a napkin in a bar it is a legal co-write. Of course the writer would have to prove it.
The only exception would be if a written statement releasing the author from a co-write accompanies it or you have a work for hire agreement that specifically states the line is given without a co-write.

Of course he might have been wrong.

Bill,

I am not totally sure, but Whiskey Lullabye, the song with the "Trigger Line" is a "Whispering Bill Anderson" song, that I believe was written in the 60's. I remember it from many years ago. He and Brad Paisley are very good friends. Brad has cut a few of his songs.

MAB

Hey Marc
Yes, Bill Anderson wrote the song. I think he might have had a co-writer on it too. Not sure about that one tho.
In the 60's? really? I thought it was a new one.

I didn't mean to imply anything just that I had seen the lyric on a forum that seemed similar or even the same.

The only other ones I remember having seen on the net was a song done by Leanne Rimes that had been on soundclick and one done by Kenny Chesney that had been post on another forum. Both legal cuts.

It does happen but given the numbers of songs posted it seems very rare.

Just a reminder that the songwriters' share of a #1 hit song might be $20,000 or so... hardly enough to cover the legal fees.

It is my contention, as someone who gives feedback on songwriting forums, that I do so freely of my own will, and that, without reservation, all my comments and feedback belong unreservedly to the writer of the song. Otherwise I wouldn't freely offer my help, or press "enter" after writing my suggestions.

The fact that no song published in a forum like this has ever made a hit is testament to the fact that this business is crooked. I have heard songs and read lyrics on this forum far superior to a hell of a lot of things in the charts. It just proves my point that this is a fickle crooked closed shop business and talent and hard work from outsiders count for zip. If I wanted to find truly talented performers and writers the charts is the last place I would look. I judge on quality of song and talent of performer not on how many bucks a thing makes.

Don't know where you got that figure from But the only songwriter I have ever personally talked to that had a hit in the top ten, and told me how much she earned, on the Country charts had a Co-writer. They gave the publisher 50 percent. So Her cut was only 25 Percent,
Her first royalty check was $90,000.00
That was about 4 years ago. As far as I know the checks are still coming.

I believe CD Mechanical royalties are 9.1 cents. Usually the Publisher gets half. So if you are the only writer that is about 4.5 cents per CD. 1 Million CD's $45,000.00 and that does not include airplay where the real money is.

So I think there is more than enough incentive to sue.

Guess I had the numbers wrong, still my main point was, if I post feedback on a public forum, I make the choice to give my suggestions/comments freely to the writer(s) of the song. And if I give feedback to my students who are songwriters, I also consider that feedback to be free and any suggestions I make unreservedly belong to them, in perpetuity.

Vikki
You are a person with honor.
I hope I would be too.
But I do believe there are some nefarious types out there that might not be so honorable.

BEER!

Don't forget the pizza....

yes, I forgot the beer!!

Me with Mark. Over on the Seniors Forum at Soundclick, they actually are passing around virtual bottles of beer to thank each other for each other's help.

From my end, any help, advice, &c., I give anybody is freely given; I derive satisfaction out of having helped you make a better product, and am thankful I got to learn something in the process. And help I get from you guys works the same way. Like MAB suggested, don't hold your breath waiting for any of my songs to become a hit.

Joe

I've never posted outside of JPF--I feel ok about posting a lyric here--If one of my tunes breaks the mold, I DO kind of trust Brian, the mentors, & the site. I started the thread & can show at least that thru the site as step 1 in a court battle. And if you show that much talent in the site...You might develope
the contacts u need right here. any crit or suggestion u make is free & clear as far as I'm concerned---If u find urself digging someone's style, then contact them personally about working as co-writers, and negotiate a deal from there

Hi Pam,

Welcome to JPF!

I have offered, and accepted tons of help and advice on this and other sites. I have also done a lot of co-writes. I have never asked for, or accepted, a co-write unless it was discussed beforehand. When I want to do a major part of the work, be it musically or lyrically, and want credit for it; I will approach that person with an email or PM. Without some kind of understanding in place, oral or written, I think any lawsuit would be ill conceived. I also think it would be in bad taste. I believe almost all of us are here to learn and to help each other as much as we can. I believe we would applaud one of our own making it and not look at it as sour grapes. Of course all of this is MHO.

In the past when people wanted to use my suggestions, most of them asked if they could and if there were a lot of them used, offered to make me a co-writer - which I always decline because I can't afford to share the financial cost of the enterprise. Sometimes I remember to mention that all suggestions may be freely used.

I wonder if there were some sort of official waiver that could be made in regard to this when we post suggestions. A lot of sites mention that posts made by the poster become the property of the website owner (excluding original works.) or at least they are given permission to use them.