JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Mentor Questions Forum What would be my cut??

Oh Michelle ! My phone number ? I'm not Tiger Woods you know ! I'm in the phone book, but I'll PM you.

As for your split, yep to what Mike said. The producers cut historically, has usually been around the 20% mark.

No, not going to Tamworth this year. Too busy, and too much to do. But I'm sure you'll have a GREAT time. Have a cold lemonade for me.

cheers, niteshift

Okay MR. Knowitall is the name of the music biz guy at the label.
He is not Mike Caro, Mike is a victim just like the rest of you lol..

Question - Why do I constantly here Publishers or Labels asking for up to 75% of the publishing?
And how everybody has to give up there first song at least...

Thanks

Ah, Well,
Most of the time a Publisher wants 100 percent of the Publishing. The other 100 percent goes to the songwriter(s). Any Publisher that wants more than the 50 percent of the royalities will be found out and may be out of business because of no songs to pitch. The 50/50 spilt is pretty normal and legitimate.

Do read those contracts carefully and get a reversion clause, written into the contract, in plain English. No more than 3 years.

At current rates of 9.1 cents per copy a million seller would generate 91 thousand dollars half going to the Publisher, the other half going to the songwriter(s). If there are more than one writer on a song the songwriter splits would be determined by a co-writing agreement or equally if no co-writer agreement exists.

Producers are paid by the Artist/Label not by the songwriter's unless the writer(s) agree to it in writing.

Shakira, the rock singer, recently recieved 1 million downloads via "Spotify" or whatever the latest download source of the minute. She was paid a whopping $137. A publisher would also recieve $137. I guess if you can sell five million, you would get five times $137.

MAB

Well,
My Publisher once got 2 cents from BMI. I actually may have some royalities at BMI but I never checked. Let her ride. One day I, too may get a check for 2 cents. Yippiee!

I'm sure when Mike said that publishers or labels wanted %75 of the publishing, what he meant was that they wanted 75% of THE PUBLISHING, not of the writer's share. It gets confusing because everyone thinks in terms of 100%. But it is two different things...100% of the publisher's share and 100% of the writers' share. The difference is when the writer is also the publisher, they tend to think of it in terms of 100%, but it's not, it is 200%...100% of the writer's rights and 100% of the publisher's rights. Until the writer signs away his or her publishing rights, they own 100% of the publishing. They may want to sign 50% or 75% of their publishing rights away to a publisher, a label, a producer, an artist, a bank, their brother-in-law, or whatever.

Often, a publisher wants 100% of the publishing rights, but then may negotiate away a percentage of that. It is, and for a long time has been, very common that a label or artist or "well connected" publisher wants to have a percentage or even all of the publishing in return for a cut. It's legal, it's part of "the game." Is it moral? It's business, if you get a cut from doing that and make money, that's good, no? If they were asking for sex it would be immoral, for money, no. The world's most moral person said to go ahead and "render unto Caeser." He understood the difference between the game of business and the game of life. If you do well in business, you can help people. Now, whether you do that or not...that IS moral.

I have a friend who was starting to write with some number one writers. He wrote a song with two writers from a big publishing company that was connected to a label and an artist. The company paid for a good demo on the song. The publishing company asked my friend for half of his publishing rights. He didn't just tell them "no" he told them "(bad word) no." That was his last chance with a big company. He is well known in Nashville as a great writer, but gets no cuts. His big writer friends took a chance with him, offered him an opportunity, and got bitten. Was the publishing company "moral?" Well, they offered an unknown writer a chance to work with their connected writer and be pitched to their artists, in return for the opportunity to publish the unknown writer's songs, and still give him half of his publishing money. Doggone, they sound like Santa Claus to me.

I would recommend that someone without "clout" in the business, when asked for a cut of the publishing say something like, "Sure, it's my first big cut, I'll sign an agreement that if it gets cut and released by (insert a BIG name here) you can have ALL of the publishing, first time only." That way, even tho you have no clout in the business, you are not getting screwed, rather you are doing them a favor...first time only.

Of course, Michele, I don't know what your situation is concerning just who owns what percentage of what...nor do I want to know...but that could change some of the advice I give here.

Good luck with this, God bless, get a hit!!!

Mike

If you go by the book (in the US), mechanical rights to record a song is $0.091 per unit -- the publisher's cut is 1/2 and the writer's share is 1/2 (or $0.0455). Generally, I would assume that you have to give up 100% of the publishing to get it cut by someone who could deliver 5 million in sales (or 1 million).

Therefore your cut from just the sales and downloads for each million would be 1,000,000 * $0.0455 or $45,500 per million units sold. If you had a co-writer, it would be $22,750 per million units sold. (NOTE: remember this is by the book. The artist can also negotiate with you a lower mechanical rate).

Now there is also a revenue stream from radio play which is collected and distributed by BMI/ASCAP/... For a #1 hit that stayed on the charts for awhile, this would amount to more than the mechanical rights monies. I don't know how these are calculated or split up, so I don't have even a "by the book" scenario.

Kevin

P.S. Sorry, if you paid Paul for his recording/producer services, then he won't expect a cut from the mechanical sales or the radio play. You get to keep (legally and morally) all the revenue.

Michelle,

Like almost every argument I have ever heard regarding this and similar money subjects, they are all so cart before the horse I can't even understand why people discuss them. If you look at the majority of the real music industry, especially the majors, they don't even look at those kinds of numbers. they are more concerned with selling 50 copies, then 100, then 1000, if you sell those kinds of numbers, people present themselves along the way.

If you have a publisher who takes 25%, that is a 25% publisher.They doubtfully will have any clout enough to get songs exploited anywhere, much less 5 million copies. the amount of songs actually released on major labels or on independents with major distribution, number in about the 1000. Out of those less than 200 recieve any significant airplay and the sales of those number in the 10's of thousands, not the millions. The amount that even sell in the 100,000 plus range are less than about 50.

So I would concentrate a little more on doing that than tossing around irrelevant numbers. In order to get a song anywhere, up the commercial avenues, even with enormous Internet exposure, is going to take more and more giving away of pieces of the song.

Susan Boyle, with 100 million in Internet interest has sold 701,000 copies so far of her debut CD. That is amazingly successful, but far from 100 million.

So I would deal with more reality based assumptions first before I tried to get into larger numbers. Sell 50 first, then worry about the 5 million on down the road. it is a long long road. Much longer than anyone ever thinks.

MAB

Michelle,

I am glad. You don't have any idea of that kind of idea and people that I deal with in an almost daily basis of people that come around and are SURE they are going to make a fortune in the music business. Most of the people I have known to ask that same question are serious. That is a weird part of the industry.

MAB

Michelle,

I don't know if you have been reading any of the other stuff I have been writing, but basically you have to look at things like this.

Music is a relay race. You start by creating something interesting and unique that is recorded well and go about the process of getting it out in the public's eye. Hopefully other people start talking about it, buying CD's, telling their friends, sending MP 3's or downloads, hopefully legal.

If there is a video involved on You Tube that possibly gets video airplay. Hopefully, if you are a performer, your gigs start improving. Since, at the beginning, you are not going to be much of a commodity, since you are unknown or possibly known in a small circle. The more you are seen, the more people pass your name around. You begin to do openings for larger named artists. Your reputation grows and as you offer opportunities for other people to make money (everybody of quality will only work on percentages or guaranteed fees) that ability grows as well.

For songs, if you are able to get publishers interested in your work, they will be responsible for taking them to the industry.
The higher the level of the reputation of the publisher, the higher the level the song may get. And of course, the higher the percentage.

At every level, from yourself, to musicians, to studios, to publishers, managers, agents, etc. your ability to make money is incumbent on your ability to make money for others. For the public, it is about motivating them to actually spend money on your product.

It is the same as any product out there. Food,computers, household items, toilet paper, it is simply the same thing. Music is more of an emotional product, as all entertainment is, but it is still a product. It competes with the other songs, artists, writers, producers, record labels, then with television, movies, video games, I pods, sporting events, etc.

It is a global marketplace. We all compete. Do better than your competition and you succeed financially, emotionally, and other wise. If you don't have competitive product, or is not well recorded or up to the standards your potential audience is accustomed to, or if it just falls flat, we are not always the best arbiters of our own product, you don't compete. And you either quit or keep trying.

Everything in the music industry has about a 96% failure rate. As a hit writer, producer, actor, artist, etc. About 4% of your work is what gets the attention. The rest simply dissapears. It is not always anyone's fault. Sometimes it simply doesn't work. Not much you can do about that. You just try again.

The point is that at every step, there are people who come into your life that have an effect on yourself and your product. Nothing happens overnight and usually it takes years to really build solid things, from product to reputation.

What people see with successful artists, or songs, are just the successful things. They don't see the failures, dead ends, or things that don't work. But if you read biographies or
watch backstories about any success, that is a principal things people talk about. The failures.

It is not about getting knocked down, or failing. It is about how you get back up and how you keep going.

MAB

Michelle,

Like almost every argument I have ever heard regarding this and similar money subjects, they are all so cart before the horse I can't even understand why people discuss them. If you look at the majority of the real music industry, especially the majors, they don't even look at those kinds of numbers. they are more concerned with selling 50 copies, then 100, then 1000, if you sell those kinds of numbers, people present themselves along the way.

If you have a publisher who takes 25%, that is a 25% publisher.They doubtfully will have any clout enough to get songs exploited anywhere, much less 5 million copies. the amount of songs actually released on major labels or on independents with major distribution, number in about the 1000. Out of those less than 200 recieve any significant airplay and the sales of those number in the 10's of thousands, not the millions. The amount that even sell in the 100,000 plus range are less than about 50.

So I would concentrate a little more on doing that than tossing around irrelevant numbers. In order to get a song anywhere, up the commercial avenues, even with enormous Internet exposure, is going to take more and more giving away of pieces of the song.

Susan Boyle, with 100 million in Internet interest has sold 701,000 copies so far of her debut CD. That is amazingly successful, but far from 100 million.

So I would deal with more reality based assumptions first before I tried to get into larger numbers. Sell 50 first, then worry about the 5 million on down the road. it is a long long road. Much longer than anyone ever thinks.

MAB

Michelle,

I don't know if you have been reading any of the other stuff I have been writing, but basically you have to look at things like this.

Music is a relay race. You start by creating something interesting and unique that is recorded well and go about the process of getting it out in the public's eye. Hopefully other people start talking about it, buying CD's, telling their friends, sending MP 3's or downloads, hopefully legal.

If there is a video involved on You Tube that possibly gets video airplay. Hopefully, if you are a performer, your gigs start improving. Since, at the beginning, you are not going to be much of a commodity, since you are unknown or possibly known in a small circle. The more you are seen, the more people pass your name around. You begin to do openings for larger named artists. Your reputation grows and as you offer opportunities for other people to make money (everybody of quality will only work on percentages or guaranteed fees) that ability grows as well.

For songs, if you are able to get publishers interested in your work, they will be responsible for taking them to the industry.
The higher the level of the reputation of the publisher, the higher the level the song may get. And of course, the higher the percentage.

At every level, from yourself, to musicians, to studios, to publishers, managers, agents, etc. your ability to make money is incumbent on your ability to make money for others. For the public, it is about motivating them to actually spend money on your product.

It is the same as any product out there. Food,computers, household items, toilet paper, it is simply the same thing. Music is more of an emotional product, as all entertainment is, but it is still a product. It competes with the other songs, artists, writers, producers, record labels, then with television, movies, video games, I pods, sporting events, etc.

It is a global marketplace. We all compete. Do better than your competition and you succeed financially, emotionally, and other wise. If you don't have competitive product, or is not well recorded or up to the standards your potential audience is accustomed to, or if it just falls flat, we are not always the best arbiters of our own product, you don't compete. And you either quit or keep trying.

Everything in the music industry has about a 96% failure rate. As a hit writer, producer, actor, artist, etc. About 4% of your work is what gets the attention. The rest simply dissapears. It is not always anyone's fault. Sometimes it simply doesn't work. Not much you can do about that. You just try again.

The point is that at every step, there are people who come into your life that have an effect on yourself and your product. Nothing happens overnight and usually it takes years to really build solid things, from product to reputation.

What people see with successful artists, or songs, are just the successful things. They don't see the failures, dead ends, or things that don't work. But if you read biographies or
watch backstories about any success, that is a principal things people talk about. The failures.

It is not about getting knocked down, or failing. It is about how you get back up and how you keep going.

MAB

Great Info here guys thanks Marc and Mike D and all the others
who put up numbers and great questions and answers.

See Michele I told you to post that question here..

My area of know is not here at all lol.. It's definitely in studio, in bands, in pop culture, in music & music biz history & observation, and in writers and musicians heads.

Oh and dealing with failures/rejection and incompetent doctors!

Good thread guys

I just recently sent it to a female producer in Nashville to have a look, and she loves it, so currently I'm pricing around to get the best deal. She offered three different suggestions and prices, very reasonably priced too. I also got this song criticed, and another one, I agreed with one of the critics, but one we didn't agree with.