JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum Song Critiquing

Hi guys,

I'm new to this forum all the way from London England. I've been writing for 6 years and will post some songs on the MP3 section for you to hear. The reason I make this post is I recently invested in getting one of my latest songs critiqued. I decided to do this because i'd picked up some good tips after reading Jason Blume's "Inside Songwriting" a really good book by the way.
Anyway his company, Moondream Music offers a critiquing service at $30 per song. You might think that's a bit but I could not believe the feedback. Best money i've ever spent & I've tried TAXI and other English companies.

The reason you will like the critique is because you get sent an Mp3 file with the person talking you through your song in my case it was a guy called 'Rick Chudacoff'. I have posted the critique that I received on my myspace page & the song he critiqued so you can hear it for yourself.

http://www.myspace.com/jamesdfitzgerald

If you value good opinion then I suggest you give it a go.

http://www.jasonblume.com/1289852.html

Enjoy

James

Hi James and welcome to JPF.

Jason Blume is in fact a member here although not active on the boards. The merits of his critiquing services and paid critiques in general have been discussed at length here on other threads over the years. Some see it as an invaluable service others see it as a waste of time and money. At the end of the day it is down to an individual to decide for himself. If you are prepared to shell out money for a critique and value the opinions of the person critiquing and can learn from this then fair enough you will see the value in this. I personally do not see much merit in this type of thing.

We have a MP3 critique board where you can post your Mp3 and lyrics free of charge. Generally songs will get several free critiques from a variety of people with different levels of, ability, experience, walks of life and genres. I think this is as valuable if not more valuable than one critique from a paid critiquer.

I listened to the critique and to your song and IMHO I do not think this critique was worth any cash whatsoever.
There are three elements to a song
1. Lyrics
2. Melody
3. Production and arrangement.

The guy doing the critique never spoke about production and arrangement. He hardly mentioned melody and only spoke generally and very briefly about lyrics.
I would expect a full in depth analysis of all three elements for my money including a line by line dissection of lyrics plus several suggestions as to how to improve. All he seemed to say was change "it matters" to "it matters to me".... BIG DEAL. IMO

Your song although pretty good had several areas that needed attention to bring it up to a pro standard worth pitching. Minor Lyic changes were pretty low on my list of things needing fixed.
Perhaps if you post your song on The MP3 foum and see what our members throw up you will get a comparison between our free critiques and a paid service.

There are a number of scam operations offering critiques for cash. I would point out that the Jason Blume service is regarded as one of the best in the marketplace. Whilst I have nothing against Mr Blume I personally am not that impressed with his book, or other services. Others here will probably strongly disagree. JMO.

This brings me back to a post a while back where I posed the question, "Would you pay for a critique?" (Or something close to that.)

My opinion was that I would not and others, for various reason said they would, and what Jim said actually summed up my point of view on the matter.

I also listened to the critique and as positive as it sounded I did not actually hear anything that you could not have gotten here for free. Worth 30$ ? Matter of opinion.

Please post your mp3 and your lyric on the Forums and over and above the regular, "I liked it." comment, valid as that is because we all have different tastes, you will receive nice little tid bits of insight from third parties that can stear you in the direction you might be looking for. (It has helped me over the years.)

Welcome and I look forward to listening/reading your material.

Doug

Hey Jim & Doug,

Thanks for your insight. I would say that the critique was worth it in that It has opened my thoughts to lyrics which is not something I've ever particularly focussed on. I thank you for taking the time to reply. I probably won't pay for another critique as like you say there is an MP3 section here and this site quite clearly has many experienced writers to feed from.

I look forward to reading many more posts.

Cheers

James

Hi James. Welcome to JPF. Looking forward to hearing your songs in MP3 section.

Nadia
____________________________
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_music.cfm?bandID=936270

http://books.google.com/books?id=X6IXouh7xvkC&pg=PR6&lpg=PR6&dq=Rick+Chudacoff,+jason+Blume&source=bl&ots=c2NYPBawX_&sig=IiSrDzt8H9TQO5b_uCDukiK1VTw&hl=en&ei=4SQhS-zyF4GOlAe47fD7CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CA4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false


Seems all one would need is to read what they teach. Was all that info in the critique?

It's here:

http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthr...5&topic=0&Search=true#Post777688

Good grief ! Is the critiquer a news reader ? "You're doing a really good job ? " Hello ?

The critique is esoterical garbage. I didn't hear MUSIC mentioned once. No note to structure, no note to MUSICAL PHRASING, no note to MUSICAL ARRANGEMENT or production, overall feel, vibe, beat, vocal strength, instrumentation, choice of instruments, drums ( bad and mechanical ), prosidy..... what else ?

What a load of rubbish for $30.

Don't worry James, you can put up your work on the mp3, and be insulted many times over for free.

Welcome to JPF. You kinda get the feeling by now, that the guys here take a dim view of the so called "service industry" towards songwriters. Some is legit. Some is not. This is not.

cheers, niteshift

I haven't read that particular book but the other book I would say follows what the critique said so I think I'll probably stick to multiple free reviews from here & reading books. Cheers

Oh wow this topic is causing a stir. Ok, well lesson learned for me. I'll take off my blinkers now.

It's easy to tell the difference between a good song/production and a crappy one. What isn't easy is telling the difference between a good song and a great song. The latter being in the ears of the beholder.

Save your money in the future and post your MP3's here James - IMO. Also, if you have specific issues with one of your tunes, mention your concerns in the post.

Best, John

John D, you're shouting......

cheers, niteshift

I think I agree with all the veterans here. I get my best critiques, and best suggestions, from "peer review" by other writers. And I have found the most and best of those here at JPF.

I did take advantage of one of those paid-critique fellers (except it was free, because he was offering a promotional deal). It was okay, *but* being a Nashville Professional, he spent most of his time telling me why my song would never be marketable in Nashville. (I kinda knew that already.)

No, he didn't mention the music (which I could have used feedback on), or the production (where feedback probably wouldn't have helped anyway--I know my equipment is primitive, and my use of it poor). He did have some good suggestions for tightening up the song, and I have used them in our band's performances of the song. But we do perform it, and audiences do really like it, and I probably would not be performing it if I'd relied on this feller's panning of the song.

I would not have wanted to rely exclusively on that guy's opinion (and I would have been tempted to do so, had I been paying for it)--and of course, I would not have wanted to pay for his opinion, either. I would really rather have multiple opinions, from a wide range of perspectives. And I get that from you guys and gals. Thanks.

Joe

I'll give a thumbs up to pro critiques, provided they're from trusted sources like Blume's service.

Why? Because their criticism is geared toward writing marketable songs, whereas all the free advice we get here is geared toward whatever any one of us happens to believe. Personally, I prefer to sift through all the opinions of a board like this, but then again, I'm not trying to write a million-seller. If I was, I would be leery of everyone's opinions here, since we're all in it for various reasons, and the info coming back can be confusing, wildly contradictory, and often wrong. That works for me...but it might not work so well if I was trying to be more marketable.

Hey Mark,

Yes, I somewhat agree, but in this case, it's simply verbal diahorrea, to make the listener/songwriter happy on spending $30.

For what ? To make them feel good. It does no justice to the song in question ( which isn't half bad in my opinion ) and shows no depth or understanding of how a track of music works.

It's light weight dribble.

cheers, niteshift

Right on Nite! I especially like the part about verbal diarrhea.

I can't say anything about the music aspect, but I think the reviewer gave good advice about the lyric. In fact, I'd written (in a Word file) an extensive review of the lyric before I even realised there was an MP3 attached to it. (It was in one of the forums, but seems to have disappeared.) Then I listened to the song (I do like James' vocals ) and heard the critique. Many of the points made by the reviewer were similar to comments I'd made as well, and he made it clear in a fair bit of detail that the lyric needed to be re-thought and restructured. I don't know the monetary value of that kind of advice, but it's the type of thing a lot of us need to hear.

Now that James knows about JPF, he'll get a lot of that type of information for free.

Donna

PS: Welcome to JPF, James.

Ha!!! Na,,,,,voice just a little strained,,,,so it's just seems that way!

Really, I was just separating our sentences, so they wouldn't all blend in to appear as if nothing was replied, since I put them in that quote box. I never do that!,,,Well,,,,once now.

GET IT?!!!!! Ha!!!

Cheers and a wink,
John

Hey Donna,

It's not about lyrics, they make up less than 10% of the work load. It's about the song.

It's quite obvious that the so called "professional" criquer is pandering to an audience that ( whom he hopes ) has no idea. He collects his money, and end of story.

cheers, niteshift

I agree with Nite........You are correct about giving a thumbs up to a pro critique with the provisos you state. However if this "pro" critiqe is an example of Mr Blumes services then I and a few fellow JPFrs should set up in competition. Quite frankly the critique was amateurish and patronising, it lacked any substance or decent advice. It also would make more sense to provide a written critical report that can be easily referred to rather than a recording that sounded as if the guy made it up as he went along. I doubt very much if this guy knows much about songwriting or critques.
So Mark how do you know whether you "Pro" IS ANY GOOD?
Gender specific critiques. You would need a guy who specialises in your genre. How do you find a trusted source. It is no use sending for a critique to a Nashville country guy if you are writing europop.

You don't. All I'm saying is that the info from these services is more likely to be focused on a marketable song than the mishmash of opinions we are used to giving and receiving.

Is it worth it? That's up to the reviewee. I know I've never spent a dime on it, but I do see the value.

Value ? Please expain. The critque in question was nonsence.

cheers, niteshift

OK, I think that this was a very good critique. He spent the first minute or so going over the music and saying that the melody, while not wow!, was pretty decent. Everything flowed, phrasing was on, rhyming structure, blah de blah.

That semi-discordant chord leading in the bridge at ~2:15 did seem odd to me. Seemed like one instrument was changing but everything else was still playing the chorus.

He then spent the majority of time on the lyrics -- and since he felt the melody, phrasing and structure was pretty good, it made sense to me to move on. The number one critique was "how are the verses really supporting the title?" (and I guess you changed the title based on his comments). And then he really spent a lot of time hammering home that point.

The detail of the critique was higher than 95% of what you would get here from a peer review (although if you get 5-10 reviews then maybe, in total, the depth might be there). I thought all the lyrical points made were spot on and really made a lot of sense to me.

If I sent off this song and got this review back, I would consider it money well spent -- IF I made changes to fix the lyrical issues pointed out.

I might say that in addition to the 7 minute voice message a "critique sheet" that measured the song against Jason Blume's writing principles would have been an expectation of mine. Minus that, it is still a pretty good critique.

Kevin

I know we have discussed the importance of lyrics on the boards numerous times and I have mixed feeling about the outcome. I listened to the review first and then listened to the song and frankly I have no idea what the lyrics are about or what most of them are. They are just not important to the listener in this genre.

Having said that, the lyrics are probably a barrier to entry when it comes to getting the song published. If a publisher reviews the lyrics of this song and does not like them, it helps him decide to dump it and move on to the next song, even if nobody ever understands the lyrics when the song is played.

So as Mark said, if you want to have a hit record, it has to pass muster on all fronts even if it is not important, or else another song will win out.

Hopefully the reviewer is aware of this and is just focusing on what he sees as a problem, rather than talking about the music or production which he does not see as a problem?????????

Looks like Kevin just saved me a longwinded explanation, but he pretty much nailed how I viewed this.

I'm really not on the opposite side of your view, and I can definitely see how some critiques are more valuable than others. To you, this critique is complete drivel. To me, it's a good bit of coaching.

Contrary to country and some other genres lyrics are one of the least important things in this style of music. As a pro critiquer he should have at least pointed out an in depth analysis of the strengths and weakness in the musical and production aspects which account for the majority of requirements for this type of music. I thought that for hard earned cash this was one of the worst crits I have ever seen.

This is a myth. Lyrics are very important in this alt-indie type style of songs. Even in pop songs, there is always a memorable hook that someone can relate to. Michael Jackson's lyrics were well written at times.

For example here's a "rock" type song that has mighty fine lyrics (it a relatively old example, but it'll do). Great lyrics separate the fly by nights from the great acts. Of course, these aren't "country lyrics" so the story isn't well defined.

Kevin

*********************************************************
A Long December Lyrics
Artist(Band):Counting Crows

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNF1a-ZG1uc ??
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x22lag_counting-crows-a-long-december_music

A long December and there's reason to believe
Maybe this year will be better than the last
I can't remember the last thing that you said as you were leaving
Oh the days go by so fast

(chorus)
And it's one more day up in the canyons
And it's one more night in Hollywood
If you think that I could be forgiven
I wish you would
(Na na na, etc. yeah)

The smell of hospitals in winter
And the feeling that it's all a lot of oysters, but no pearls
All at once you look across a crowded room
To see the way that light attaches to a girl

And it's one more day up in the canyons
And it's one more night in Hollywood
If you think you might come to California
I think you should
(Na na na, etc. yeah)

Drove up to Hillside Manor sometime after 2 a.m.
And talked a little while about the year
I guess the winter makes you laugh a little slower
Makes you talk a little lower about the things you could not show her

And it's been a long December and there's reason to believe
Maybe this year will be better than the last
I can't remember all the times I tried to tell myself
To hold on to these moments as they pass

And it's one more day up in the canyon
And it's one more night in Hollywood
It's been so long since I've seen the ocean
I guess I should
(Na na na, etc. yeah)

I did not mean that lyrics were unimportant as such I meant that in the big picture and this genre specifically they are relatively unimportant. POP music is famous for its throwaway drivel lyrics. I can quote many examples. Just listen to Miss Spiers and Pussycat Dolls and Jay Lo etc etc etc. Most people who listen to this genre only remember the hook or part of the chorus and have no interest in analysing what the song is about. That is a fact I have been to the occasional karaoke. The pop genre is clearly production and arrangement led. I like a great lyric as well as the next person BUT in a pop song critique would recognise that other things are far more important to make a song a hit.

I think the problem here, is the critiquer in question is simply blinkered as to what makes up a song. Either that, or he's simply telling the payee what they want to hear. No surprise there.

As Jim says, the big picture is totally overlooked. Pay me $30 and I'll send you an in depth audio file concerning the bass line. Pay me another $30 and I'll critique simply the vocal style and arrangement. Pay me another $30...... you get the picture.

I would suggest James puts his work up on mp3 board, under Subs' "gimmie a hit song" thread. You'll get 10x better information at where you're at, ( and for free ) rather than this pedestrian walk in the park back slapping pseudo mind slapping nonsence.

cheers, niteshift

PS - yes, I'm grumpy today !

Hi James:

Before I forget, welcome to JPF. We have several Londoners who post regularly here. I hope you'll stick around to enjoy all the banter, interesting news and people who frequent this site.

I don't send my songs out for critiques. You'll probably get all you are looking for in that regard by posting your lyrics and music on the boards here... and it's absolutely free. You may also want to check out SongRamp.com for a similar environment.

Merry Christmas,

Dave Rice

Mass consensus.

But for a large production, which I am not in to, many swear by going through TAXI for picking up the most trusted leads on it.

Or, get REAL involved in cities where the most music business is being practiced for one's genre. And, get in on as many sit-ins and clubs as possible, while becoming familiar with all the secretaries of the publishers, labels, and studios, working a friendly path of relationships along with an ever growing understanding of the craft and all business ways.

That's a lot harder than mailing in songs, and a once a year check, with waiting for things to happen. There's probably good reason too.

John

Good point John.

I remember well, living in London and trying to write the "next big hit musical" in a one room apartment in Wilsden Green. ( a suburb on the northen tube line ).

Wife was a dancer in the West End, I was taking composition classes in Lower John St, right behind the big Fosters sign.

I wasn't 'successfull' in most terms, but I actually did live the life of the wannabe artist.

Johns' right. Concentrate on your craft, and you've got a major musical hub to do it in. Mix with others in your professional field, and that will do you much better than sending off your $30 to someone whom makes their living by being a parasite.

Frequent the local haunts, where songwriters hang out. They've probably changed now, but I used to hang around Covent Garden, Oxford St, Soho, and would get to meet some stunning ( often drunk ) individuals who were actually doing the business. That's were it lies.

cheers,niteshift

One of the advantages with critiques from Nashville pros is, if your music fits Nashville, they can open doors for you if you really write a great one. It is to their advantage to do so.

Twenty years ago, there was a mantra in Nashville --
Don't pay anyone to listen to your songs.

I think you reach a point in your writing (if you are really good) where the pro critiques are less likely to help.

I noticed you changed the title to It Matters To Me.

Like Kevin said, I thought it was a pretty good critique. Also like Kevin said, it was more in depth than you would get with just one critique here on the boards.

Wow guys what a response. I'm partly glad I started this post purely on the basis of seeing how uber active these forums are! I'm very impressed.

Thank you for the welcome it's lovely to be here.

I have taken on board everything that everyone has said. I do still feel that the critique was worth paying for as I now have something to compare against the advice from those here. I also did agree with the lyrical advice he gave. My Co Writer Tim & I have never particularly bothered too much on lyrics & I've believed in some ways they aren't always important but I've now learnt that we need to spend more time on them. The main reason for this is because we are gearing our work for the main stream market & will be going aiming for the publishing route.

I could go on thinking that our melodies and music are good enough to make it on their own but I've woken up now to the whole concept of selling a complete package. If the lyrics aren't good on the sheet then I will have a lot less chance of getting through any paper sift that might occur.

Aside from all that I have already had some very positive feedback in the MP3 section which will greatly assist. I will most certainly use that as a regular place to test out our work.

Cheers

Jim

This thread proves that critiquing a critique is comparable to critiquing a song. You’ll find an assortment of opinions. As I mentioned earlier in this thread; it’s in the ears of the beholder.

John

LOL John! I am working on a tune right now called Country is in the Ear of the Beholder and it is turning into a raucous rock-fest.

Kevin

It is nice to have you here Jim. Just one point worth making. You will probably be aiming at the British/European marketplace.
The USA has traditionally been a hard nut to crack. Robbie Williams never made it in the USA. The heavy country bias associated with most American critiquers where lyrics dominate is worth considering in any comments made re lyrics. Are lyrics really as applicable and important to a Euro hit as folk might think.

Hey nightshift,I always say....It's about the song.

Two brief thoughts on this whole subject:

1. If you're going to pay for a professional critiquing service, do your homework and use one that has intimate knowledge of the primary genre in which you compose. If you use a critiquing service oriented to Country music, you should expect the critique to focus on the lyric more so than anything else. It's indigenous to the genre. Other genres will have different areas of focus. Do your homework!

2. A critique from anybody, pro or not, is as valuable in terms of either money spent or intrinsic worth, as the submitter chooses to make it. If he thinks he got a good deal...he did. If thinks he didn't...it was bad deal. That's left to the composer to decide. It's his/her money...only he/she can decide on the value pof the product/service received.

Welcome James! It's good to have you with us. Hope you enjoy your time here. I've been active here for almost 9 years (February 2001). I have few complaints...and the ones I have are greatly outweighed by the value of the good stuff. All the best!

Alan

Thanks Alan. I've been here just one week & i've learnt so much already. I look forward to learning much more over the coming years