JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum Co-writng pros and cons

I am in the process of having my first co-writing experience. I'm finding it to be very painful to say the least. I'd love to hear some of your experiences. How involved does the lyricist get in the melody writing? In my very naive mind, I always thought the lyricist would "hand over" the lyrics and the melody writer would write the song and maybe re-write as needed and then bingo! Its done! But not in this case... My lyricist is also a songwriter..so I think there's a power struggle going on here. I need to hear from ya'll. Is this a unique situation?

HiDee Mz D, & Yeah, sometimes that happens..."2 Different Visions" on the Same Thing. Just remind yourself you DID want a "Second Opinion" when you got into the Co-Write..and "Being-FLEXIBLE" is what SUCCESSFUL Co-Writing is All About.

SOMETIMES..when You..as The Lyrics Half..pen a Song..you hear a really good MELODY...& Yeah..it's HARD to sit back and NOT "Argue Your Case"..(As I just did Yesterday..on one.) But I recommend ya "Argue Gently"..assuming you WANT that Other Half to keep Contributing.

Worst Case Scenario: Your Other Half ends up with Something You, the Initiator, Can't Stand. You can agree to "Try Again". You can agree on "It's My Song Initially/I take it Back"...or you can let THAT Version Stand...(and you'll try Another..WITH a diffo Co-Writer) (&..probably hear from Their Attorney...IF you get a Hit on Version 2).

My wife's cutting my hair as I pen this. It's a decent analogy: IF, when she's done cutting, I hate the Results, I'll still manage to grow some MORE hair..& somehow, life will go on.

Co-Writers are like Lovers...Some you'll Love...Some you'll have Serious Spats With (Tho THEY may produce some of the BEST you ever Created)..Some will leave ya Hangin'...& Some are Just Great Fun To Hang With. All of 'em Beat just working Lonely into the Night.

Good Luck with This One,
Big Hugs,
Stan

Donna,

It's musical dating. At 1680 songs with 1300 people in five years (I am in the middle of one right now, while writing you)you have to date around. Trying not to get too tied into any one thing and remember that it is just a song. The more you write,
the more people you write with it makes each one easier and each one a little stronger.

You learn from every person you write with and every song you write. Soon you have a catalogue of work and can look back and be a little objective about what your best work is.

And while there is some "turning over' the lyrics, it almost never is that way with more experienced writers. There are very few pure lyric writers or pure melody writers now. Almost everyone does both. And when you turn in something that is "too finished" it can force someone in a box, and that can stifle creative freedom. In a town like Nashville,which is a songwriter's town, the less finished something is, the more attractive it is going to be to most writers, particularly those who are professional or have existing track record.

So the best thing I would suggest is try to get along with who you are writing with and build on the relationship. Of course if it is too hard to deal with you might want to finish it up, learn from the experience and move on, not going there again. You will do better next time.

But don't be too quick to reject a person. A friend of mine is named Pam Belford. She had a number one George Straight song called "If I Know Me." That was the 19th song she had written with another hit writer named Dean Dillon. That means there were 18 songs they wrote that went no where.

MAB

Donna....Stan is right about most everything he has said. The really good composers are somtimes the most difficult, but the most productive. Sometimes our lyrics have to be trimmed or rearranged to fit the right melody.

I've had some just throw out really bad melodies or melodies that sound like other hit songs. I hope you work through your differences and create a good one.

Stan...your analogy has me LMAO

redwing

Stan is right, and so is Mike. It's a *lot* like dating, or even (more to the point) sex. You adapt to what your partner likes, and as long as the adapting works for you, you'll do fine.

I'm mainly a lyricist, but I have some musical knowledge (I can read music, plunk out chords on the piano, understand the notes in the scale of a key). I write lyrics and in my head have a strong rhythmic idea and a sortakinda melody that I can force myself to write out if need to. And I usually start with a "finished" lyric.

I've written with a lot of people -- here are my methods:

* Give someone a finished lyric and have them come back with something fantastic

* Give someone a lyric and give them my basic melody and rhythm idea for them to develop and improve

* Give someone a lyric, write out the melody, tell them exactly what the rhythm is and have them layer and develop it

* Get a musical track from someone with a verse/chorus melody already on it and write lyrics to match it, and tack on a bridge

* Get a full musical track from someone

* Give someone a lyric, have them come up with ideas, give them ideas of my own, and go back and forth until we're both happy.

Right now I"m trying something new, co-writing a lyric long distance with someone who is a singer/songwriter. He had a basic notion for a song, I wrote two verses on that idea, he rewrote them and put a melody to them, and I took that and wrote the rest of a lyric. We'll see where it goes from there.

I was in Nashville recently and had several different writing experiences. One co-writer called me (while I was on my way to the airport) to discuss cuts and changes she wanted to make. I trusted her a lot and we talked through various ideas until we agreed.

It's all different and it's all good. The more adaptable you are the better. But you need to talk it out.

One regular co-writer and I almost didn't "make it." Our first collab he wrote a melody to a lyric I had. I wasn't happy with the take and gave feedback -- he didnt take it well and we both got our back up. That might have been it, but I offered to take one of his tracks, already written, and write lyrics to it, and we wrote a beautiful song -- and that experience allowed us to be more honest with each other and trust each other more.

Just talk to your collab, and listen to them -- it's like a marriage, you have to keep the lines of communication open.

Hi Donna. It seems that I am at odds with everyone else.
Almost every song I have is a collaboration with composer/singer and I have never had a problem. (over 50 songs now and maybe you have heard some of them on the site).
I keep it simple. The lyrics are mine the music is the other persons. If they need to make a little change in 1 or 2 words then its still my lyrics. I guess that most have never had to make changes of any note as most lyrics have been finished at the time. When I have had composer/singers in a different country, compose for me there has to be some word changes due to translating, but still the lyrical side of the song is mine.
I would have thought that if the song lyrics are finished and they work, then big changes arnt needed.
Of course I have only on 1 occation worked with someone over the net, all others I met personally and became friends with. Maybe that makes a differance.

On my two latest songs, I have paid a melody writer to create the melody for me. No hassles or ego issues. He writes it, I except it. Job done.

These are all just my opinions.

Good luck with it

Roy

I have written music for other peoples' lyrics but not the other way round. Most but not all attempts have resulted in a finished song.

Some lyricists write with a good sense of timing and have a knowledge of song structure which makes composing music for the lyrics fairly straightforward. Others have good ideas and write interesting lines but their ability to write to fit a rhythm or structure just isn't there, so the composer has to make a lot of changes for it to work.

Hi Colin.
Just thought that I would say Hi.

Roy

Hi Roy! I'm back...Colin

Another note,

What I have found is that if someone already has something completely written, they are very seldom interested in actually making changes that are needed to make the song work. What affects one person may not affect the next person the same way. So what one might have a real emotional tie to is not the same with the other person.

A real problem we have here in Nashville are people coming to the town with ideas, lyrics, phrases, titles, etc. that are very contrived and are ideas that are very cliched' and overdone. if you don't hear hundreds of songs all the time and put yourself in the place of people in the industry, the publishers, song pluggers, artists, record label people, who DO hear thousands of songs all the time, there is no way the writer can be objective or see what is already out there. So they tend to write things that are not as up to date as they need to be.

The result of writing with writers who have existing lyrics for me, is I usually try to get them to move to something else and keep the existing lyrics for someone else that might be more attuned in that way. This is the way most professionals would do. They rarely like to be constrained.

MAB

Post deleted by Marc Barnette

My experiences have been mostly positive. I have certainly learned from each collaboration. The most difficult thing for me is when there is disagreement. In general I try to structure it so that I do the lyrics and the other person does the music. I usually find that suggestions on the lyrics from my c0-writer are useful and I incorporate them.

Tom

Hi Marc.
you noticed that when you post a reply it posts it twice. I get this as well.

Roy

Good views by the way.

Roy,

I have noticed that lately. I usually catch them and delete them first. missed that one. I am in a co-write right now. Go figure. Eight songs down this week.

MAB

Some thoughts:
I'm not the least bit interested in putting music to somebody else's lyric, "fixing" somebody else's lyric, or in writing out a whole lyric and asking somebody else to write the music. To me, that's not really co-writing.
I prefer to write songs "from scratch" in the same room with my co-writer(s). Usually, we don't get a song all the way done in one session, so we'll do a little (or a lot) of work on it independently, and then run ideas past each other when we get back together. I've had songs where we wrote a passable first verse and chorus, but as soon as my co-writer left, I caught on fire and wrote the second verse and bridge. I sent an email before they even got home and said "What do you think?". It's also happened to me the other way.
I think you have to be comfortable enough with your co-writer (and yourself) to say whatever crosses your mind in a writing session, and to hear whatever crosses your co-writers mind.
You have to be aware enough to sit back and shut up if your co-writer starts really getting on a roll, so you don't get in the way...and confident enough to ask your co-writer to hush for a minute if you need them to.
You have to be open to suggestions, but willing to fight for your point of view. If you're not happy with a word or a line, don't "go along just to get along", but don't get so hung up on being right that you miss the opportunity to write something great.

One of the good things about co-writing is that it can force you out of a tunnel-vision approach.
I liken co-writng to a basketball team and a coach. When you're in the game, running up and down the floor as hard as you can, you can't see everything. The coach calls you to the sideline and makes observations..."So-and-so is open in the corner every time. Make sure you get him the ball", or "Make sure to block out that guy under the basket"...and then you go back and try to implement. Not that one writer is the team and the other is the coach, but rather that multiple perspectives make it easier to see more options.
I'm really tough on myself as a writer, and tend to be tough on my co-writers. Not mean, just tough...for the sake of the song.
Co-writing is not for everybody, or for every song, but it can be useful.

One of the huge downsides to co-writing is that you are tied to that person through that song forever. It's like having a kid together. You don't want to do it with just anybody.
Let's say for instance that Marc and I wrote a song together, and he wasn't happy that it was up to his standards, but I was running all over town saying "This is a MAB song". He wouldn't be happy. Or maybe we wrote a great song together, but I was a {expletive] to everybody I met in town. I would be dragging his name down by association. He wouldn't want that either.
What if the song we wrote was really great and I was holding out for an Alan Jackson pitch, but Marc wanted any cut he could get, so he gave it to a no-name independent artist who might sell 2000 CDs, earning us almost nothing, and nullifying any chance for a Alan Jackson cut? Or what if I was so blinded by wanting the big cut that I couldn't face the reality that the smaller cut was better than nothing? In that respect, you want to know your co-writer and his or her values, and what their plans are for the song you write.
My friend CJ Watson once told me "Co-writing is like sex. When I first discovered it, I wanted to do it with everybody I met. Now I just want to do it with people who I love and respect."
It makes perfect sense to me.

Great post Kurt.

One of the things I hope that we can get them to see through posts like this are the different points of view and how many songs and writers we deal with continually. If I could do anything for anyone on these pages, it would be to get them to come around to a town like this, just to see the diversity, the parsonalities, and how to interact with them.

For those of you who don't know, Kurt is a GREAT writer and very well known around town. One of the embodiments of being able to do what they say when they go, "Say the same thing in a different way." Kurt does that every time so I hope you guys get something out of what he says. I am proud that he mentioned me in his post. But that is exactly the way it is here.

MAB

I mostly agree with Marc and Stan. (Hi, guys.)

I have done two kinds of collaborations, and I liken both to forms of dating (or equivalent). I have done a bunch where I have musicated other people’s lyrics, and those are a lot like one-night stands—real WBTYM stuff. I am interested not so much in the person themselves as the product (the lyrics).

I want the lyrics as done and as perfect as they possibly can be. I do not want to do somebody’s work for them. The lyrics have to “sing”—when I read them, I have to hear music (and that doesn’t always happen). And I apply the same rules I apply to my own stuff: the writer needs to be either talking about something new, or if about something old, doing it in a new way. Inevitably, I will end up tweaking the lyrics a little in the course of setting them to music, and my justifcication will usually be “It has to sing this way.” I hope the lyricist will be okay with that.

In the end, the sole judgment of whether what I did is any good is theirs, not mine. I don’t claim any ownership—I have simply provided a delivery system for their words; if they like it, great, and if they don’t, I will do my best to forget it. Sometimes, the lyricist will have suggestions for changes, and sometimes I’ll be able to make them, and sometimes it will be better. But it’s their song.

What I think of as “true” collaboration—where I and someone else have written lyrics together—is a lot more like serious dating. You’re letting someone inside your head (dangerous territory, that), and you’ve got to be aware of and tolerant of each other’s thinking styles. I tend to be a perfectionist, and that may be one reason why I haven’t done a lot of those. I’ll end up arguing over the position, meaning, implication, and sound of every word, and I will appreciate it if the other person does the same. I will usually end up doing the music (like I’ve said a number of times, I always hear music)—but again, I consider the music the delivery system. It’s the words that are important.

The plus side of all that wrestling and agony is the product will end up being pretty dang good. The only one of those I’ve done with someone from JPF is “Dead Things in the Shower,” which Bobbie Gallup and I co-wrote. I can testify from performing experience that it’s a real crowd-pleaser, and it’s become our band’s standard opening number. I want to make it the title cut on my next album. What I’d expect some of the Nashville pros would find frustrating is there’s not much you could do to that song to make it better (except have somebody besides me sing it, of course); it is, I think, about as done and perfect as it can be.

All jes’ my opinions, of course. Like the old car ads used to say, your own mileage may vary.

Joe

Hey Joe, (There's a title for you)

It should also be noted that there are different purposes for songs. Not every song is meant to pitch and not every song deserves to be pitched.

There are songs that we write:

For cathartic reasons. Songs to get us over loss, anger, depression, National calamities, etc.

Songs for personal reasons. Friends, relationships, gifts, etc.

Songs for a personal statement. Outlook on life, politics, life issues.

Songs for live effect. Comedy or humerous songs to fit into a live situation that might not have a life at 8:00 in the morning but get a great response at 10:00 at night.

Artistic songs that are for our own use.

Pitchable songs. These that fit a more solid direction.

All of these take elements of patience and if you are writing with a person who doesn't share the version of where that song should go, it can lead to missed communications and hard feelings. Sometimes if you can identify the application for the song, it helps on the approach on the song.

Kurt made an interesting observation about the "quality of songs" to one writer or another. i have written songs with people that simply didn't turn out the way I wanted them to or that they wanted them to. Of the five major cuts I have had, three of them are songs I would have never thought would be cut.

Another thing that will happen sometimes when you enter in to business with publishers are that one writer might have more of that "Type of song" than the other writer does. For instance, I tend to write from a pretty bluesy point of view. A lot of co-writers don't have a lot of that, so often they will tell me they want "one of those type songs." I may have fifty of the same type of song, but since in most instances I am being paid to help them, and am teaching craft as we go, I have to do my best to try and give them something they can use, even though it might not be one of my strongest of that particular genre.

But as a result, many people have taken the songs I write with them into situations I might not have been able to get into myself. I have an artist and several songs at Sony right now, that I didn't have to take over there. The artist I wrote them with took them and they made it as part of their deal.

As always I try to emphasize that in everything you do, it is not just about one or a few songs. It is the raltionships you cultivate through those songs. So in whatever method you pick, try your best to be flexible or at least be diplomatic with what you do.

Again I cannot begin to tell you how many self inflicted wounds I have seen where someone has a bad experience, talks bad about the experience and then the person they had the bad time with ends up getting a record deal, hit songs or becomes a major factor.

"Today's secrataries are tomorrow's record executive.
Today's record excutives are tomorrow's secrataries."

MAB

co-writing didn't hurt Elvis any.

I agree with most of what has been said....Communication and compromise is key...let the other person know your ideas and never be afraid to experiment and bounce ideas back and forth till the best results are achieved....too rigid a viewpoint and unwillingness to cooperate with changes will result in a very poor song. I do not agree with the "my lyrics your melody attitude" and an unwillingness to change anything..... that sounds a tad belligerent and confrontational and could lead to trouble. Very few lyricists will write lyrics that fit another persons melody exactly so some change will always be necessary. I have had to make changes to lyrics presented to me in order to make the song meter and sing easier. Never had a prob. Explaining why, asking permission to do certain things and keeping in touch at all the various stages builds trust.

Eb,

It's funny you said that. Elvis actually didn't write anything. But Col. Tom Parker, his manager, insisted that he have a part of the publishing or some writing credit or they would not do the song.
One of the few people to ever turn him down was Dolly Parton. They wanted to do the song "I'll Always Love You" that she had written. She refused, because the song had already been released. So they didn't cut it. And today she goes back and forth on if she was right or not.
Now a friend of mine is Micheal Rodgers, the son of Jimmie Rodgers, who wrote "Honey Comb." Jimmie had a song called "It's Over" that had been a hit for him and Elvis wanted to record it. At first they said the same thing, it had already been released. But they decided that they would give Elvis half the publishing on just his versions of the song. Well, they did it on the "Aloha from Hawaii" special, and has been included on dozens of Elvis recordings and DVD's. Made several hundred thousand dollars.
So you kind of have to decide what all this means to me. for myself, I write so many songs, I am very much like "Take it, I'll write more." I don't mind if people change things, do different versions, adapt it to their own styles, whatever. Just list me as a writer and send me a check.

MAB

Hi All,

Really interesting posts here and points of view. I guess there are different ways of collaborating or co-writing, but being flexible is I feel one of them, in the end you want to have a good song,but you do have to get to know the other person(s) you are writing with. I think changes to either music or lyrics is something that will happen during the process, but like a lot of processes like this each time, I guess is different, as well as, maybe, the egos

MAB: Like the Elvis story, a pop producer/writer in the UK, Pete Waterman in his book made the same point in that some artists approached him to record some songs, but they would only do so if they had a writing credit. As for Dolly, I guess that at least I Will Always Love You became a huge hit for Whitney, that maybe there are not as many regrets (if that is the right word).

Honestly, a visit to Nashville sounds like a good thing, although I tend not to write in a country style. I can't think of the writer, but when he moved to Nashville, he said it took him a few years to get into the style of writing before he got anywhere.

As for amount of songs, I remember Frank Wildhorn saying he wrote hundreds of songs before he got anywhere with one of them.

Ok sorry if I have pulled the thread slightly off topic, just a few thoughts that came to mind while reading.

Thanks for all the points of view, and always to MAB. Not sure if you have, but thinks you should write a book on all this!!!!

Cheers

Alan

When I co-write, I just jump into it with my head under the arm. Im in it to meet people, and care less about the productivity of it.

All of the advice is good, but it's about doing it, trusting your mama has brought you up well.

Power struggles can be devastating for a colab, as you need creative space to day and do stupid things, so if other use that to put you in a box, you probably just need to move on.

No matter what each writer bring to the table or don't, it's about positive reinforcement, helping the best out in each other. So in your case, a simple agreement on if you don't like something shut up and suggest something else, and if you do like something, say it - might work.

That way you ensure you move forward in a direction you both like and feel good about.

If you can't talk that much, you are not doing anything together, anyway.

Wow...There is much wisdom and experience in these posts.

As a lyricist with some musical knowledge I can relate to most of what has been said here.

But I have learned that I would rather play to other's strength's add mine and be very open-minded about the whole process.

It is IMO part marriage, part sports team and a heckuva emotional investment.

It is obviously important to have a goal in mind as Marc pointed out well.

Sometimes I just wanna write a fun song....ya let your co's know up front...or maybe ya think that the fun one could be something commercially viable..that' the amazing part of the creative process...

You gotta leave your ego at the door....not to get stepped on mind you...if a co is burnin your flag so to speak then defend your position..explain why you believe it works...


Kurt...I especially identified with your post as to co-writing...It's like two engineers for example have an idea to build some new rocket (or what have you) and I build the thing on my own without any input from you and hand it off and exclaim "Now I have this great idea here...you just have to figure out how to make it fly"...

I would think we would still be tryin to figure out how to get to the moon with that approach...lol.

Larry

Alan,

Thank you, but there are already far too many books unread out there, they can definately live without another one from a fairly unknown writer. The closest I get to it is on threads like this and the online workshop I do on another forum. But I have been around for awhile.

On Nashville, since it is my actual job to act as an unofficial ambassador for the town and songwriting, the thing I see most of is not that you have to write "country" as much as use a trip to "fill up the well of the soul." It is a VERY diverse climant, with hundreds and thousands of different writers, artists, industry people (pluggers, publishers, agents, managers, record people) doing many different styles, and types of music. If you want to find out all about one legged banjo/tuba players and only write with those people, you will find them here.

I like it when people make trips and spend a few days, visit writer's nights, open mics, picking parties and basically get a bird's eye view. The good news and the bad news are the same.

The good news is that "Everyone is just like you, trying to do the same thing, and know exactly where you are coming from."

The bad news is: "Everyone is just like you, trying to do the same thing, and know exactly where you are coming from."

But if you come around, be nice, enjoy meeting people and sharing ideas and of yourself, you will do fine. You leave refreshed, feeling like there are a lot of distant cousins, brothers, sisters and overall kindered spirits out there. Makes it a little more tolerable than you would think.

On the Dolly "I'll Always Love You". It was a pretty big hit for her around 1967,when she was leaving the Porter Waggoner show. It is actually about her feelings for Porter, who was trying to hold her back because of his own desires for her.It broke out well and sold quite well for that time. Then it was another hit for a few people before the 70's when Elvis wanted to do it. That was her main reason for holding out that it had been a big hit a few times before and she was the sole writer and publisher on it.

It was one of those songs that pop up every few years, get cut and become a big hit. Whitney's version was done as a launch for her and Kevin Costner's movie "The Body guard" which was to be the launch of her acting career. After she fell in with Bobby Brown, she acted like an idiot for about ten years.

I had occassion to meet Dolly about 12 years ago and asked her about how she felt about the Elvis thing and she kind of smiled and winked and said "It sure would have been nice to have an Elvis cut." So I tend to think that in hindsight she might have liked to make a different decision. She is MUCH richer, but hey, it would have been Elvis doing the song. How many people can say that?

Co-writing can be a LOT of fun and can be addicting. Or you can work with Addicts and it is a nightmare. You have to take the good with the bad and look at an overall career judged in who knows you and how they know you, and your overall reputation.

MAB

Well,
I don't do any co-writing to speak of but if an Artist wants to negotiate a bit extra I would be open to it.

A Dolly note. Several years ago when I had some songs on My Publisher's Web Site he E-mailed Dolly and asked her to take a listen and comment. I got a very good critique on my songs from Dolly. She said she was very impressed. Maybe there's hope for me yet.

Marc, sorry to hear about the flair up at Warner Bros? Maybe it will still work itself out.

Ray,

As of 11:38 Friday, Nov. 6, 2009,Frankie is still with the label. Day ain't over yet. That is kind of how you live in this business. One line at a time, one song at a time, one co-write at a time, one artist at a time, etc. while you have hundreds of them out there at the same time, you always stay focused on the task at hand. That is why you build teams, to take the relay baton to the next level.

MAB

Ray,

You'll find this funny as hell. There is an online industry forum I subscribe to which is put together by various people all over the world. These are hit makers, legislators, government officials, technology people, hit writers, producers, label executives. It is a newsletter the hit writers use for information on technilogical and legislative issues. Basically like reading stereo instruction manuels. Dry as toast and all full of legalease.

On one of the forums I found a column written by an industry critique from Los Angeles entitled "7 Ways Artists Screw Up Big Time." I clicked on the link and the first one was "Attachment." It went on to detail about how writers and artists get too attached to songs and miss opportunities by letting them go in other doors. It said "One example I know was a writer/artist who had a great song that another artist was interested in cutting. He held on to the song for himself instead of letting the other artist cut the song. The other artist turned out to be Garth Brooks."

That was me. I was the one who held on to a song of mine, "Can't Blame Nobody But Me" for myself and turned down a Garth Brooks cut when I was approached by Garth and his manager Bob Doyle at a writer's nighta about 4 monhts after I had come to town.

You see, some of us are famous for our idiocy as well as our brilliance. When I talk to all of you it comes from personal experience. When I try to warn you of certain things it is not because I am trying to claim I know it all. It is because I have usually fallen in the holes or seen other people fall in them first and have seen the damage.

I can't ever save you from falling in some of the holes but sometimes I can minimze the damage. You might just break a foot or two but at least you will live. There are many who didn't make it. Some of these holes can be pretty deep.

MAB

Well Marc,
All I can say is that is a helluva way to run a railroad. Just think, you could be rich now instead of here conversing with us peons.

But, at that time, neither you or I knew how good Garth would do. If it will make you feel any better Garth was born in that group that the Astrologers said would be special in some way as all or most of the Planets were lined up in the same sign.

Well now we have a good look at that prediction. A few times I had a chance to pitch something to Garth but never had anything I thought fit him. I know at the time Clint Black was expected to do better than he did.

Without desiring controversy... let me also chime in about co-writing. It can fall anywhere between wonderful and downright terrible. So many factors involved. I've had several very good co-writes but to be totally honest... I'd rather do the whole thing by myself. My objective is not to "sell me as a vocalist." I'm basically doing what I consider to be "live worktapes"... no multiple track recordings are necessary in order to get the gist of the song across. My idea is simply that somebody with "ears" will recognize that the song might fit their singing or performing style for a new album or project. I have a fair voice but I'm nearly as old as Willie Nelson... and some say I sound a little like him. (I disagree... but what does it matter?)

Besides trying to tap into the income stream from others doing covers of my work... I'm interested in having my work being heard by new audiences and performers 100 years in the future. Yes, immortality of sorts... plus an income stream for my family after I'm gone. Sure, I know my odds are long... but even though I've written and recorded some pretty good songs... I don't believe I've written the "hallmark" song that will define exactly who I am as a songwriter. If I "hit the bigtime" wonderful... and if I don't ever make it, at least I tried... and loved every minute of it.

If I could afford to send my songs to a great studio and hand pick the vocalists to sing them, I know they would sound better and have a much better shot at success. Being a practical man, I also know that I have limited resources. It would be foolhardy to get a demo done by a Nashville Studio for every song I create. I'll know when I think the time is right. Meanwhile, I always operate under the theory that "all it takes is one." With the right contacts and a little luck... the sky is the limit.

I would prefer to have the song exemplify me as the writer... and not represent a group collaboration. The watering down of the royalty stream is another factor to be considered when doing co-writes. But heck, if it suits you and your game plan... go for it. It is obviously the primary method used in Nashville today. I can't or won't say it's wrong... I'll just say that it is not the only way.

Dave,

There is not so much controversial, just facts of history. Almost every writer who has ever lived, particularly dating from the beginning of the last Century, co-writing has been the primarly tool of development in music. Very few have just started being immensely talented writers that just one day started writing. Even in the days of George M. Cohen, the writers of vaudeville, Broadway, Hollywood, thirties, forties, fifties, sixties, on to today's writers, co-writing is the method of advancement.
It was not until the 50's that actually you had any one writer write songs. There were the lyricists and the composers. So it is not just Nashville, it is music history. I would probably ask how Lennon and McCartney would have found their way without each other, Elton John and Bernie Taupin, Rodgers and Hammerstein. They would be the first to tell you the importance of it.

In the modern age, it is not as much about "watering down" anything.It is survival. There really aren't solo written songs any more because there is just no where to go with them. Unless you have other people with a proprietary interest in the song, there is no incentive to forward that song. Particularly in the era of rampant downloading and free music, it takes multiple people just to pay for the demos or to fund the way a publisher can even stay in business. The songs themselves rarely even pay for themselves, so multiple business interests have to be involved. It doesn't work any other way.

If a person writes a song by themselves, they always have that question, "What's next?" Good question. The majority of forums like these are always about just that. What song service to use, what will it take to get artists, publishers, pluggers interested in taking a song to the next level. At that point the writer has to go look in the mirror. That is who they have to help them, to promote the song, pay for the demo, get to artists, up the ladder etc. And they are going up against the people who make the decisions on music's own interest.

So there really is no where to take songs that aren't written with some form of inside track. That doesn't mean people give up, quit writing, etc. Everyone can get their music out there. The Internet is for that. But they still only have themselves and if they are trying to get it into the marketplace, they have to find ways to give other people incentive above their own interests. That is the hard part.

If you are not a singer, not young, not amazingly talented and have a huge network of people, you have a very tough row to hoe. That doesn't mean it is impossible. But it is as close as you can get to impossible. Someone else has to carry the baton and the economic issues have changed that forever.

So to address the title of this forum, there are just very few options any more. It is not about watering down or being elitist or just the "Nashville way." It is the way of the world. The entire reason so many people are coming to Nashville and learning the "Nashville way" is because they simply have exhausted all other avenues. Business dictates the market. It is the business of music, not the business of friends or creative endevors. Those are important aspects, to be sure. But without business, there is no music outside of most people's personal, private use.

Everyone have the right and responsibility to say and do anything they want to. They have no right to be heard. That is earned. One of the ways to earn it faster is to partner with other people to help "carry the baton." One of those is through the co-writing process. And when it comes to the commercial aspect of today's music industry, that has become the only way.

MAB

Marc:

There is significant truth in what you say. Still, it is not the only way. "To each his own!" said the old lady, as she kissed the cow! (LOL!)

It is in my world.

MAB

Marc:

You win!

Kurt:

I took the time to go back and read your post. As Marc said, it was really laced with words of wisdom. If everyone had the ability to bring a cup of coffee into the old conference room and sit down amongst one's songwriting peers... it would be the perfect venue for creating songs as a group. Unfortunately, most of us don't have that resource available to us... and that's exactly why co-writing is such a time consuming and often painful experience. It's just easier for me to be the Captain of my own little ship and do the whole darn thing all by myself. I really enjoyed your post.

All I can say is what an amazing thread this has turned out to be! I can't keep silent and not give you guys an update on my co-writing first experience. Its been about 8 weeks now that my co-writer and I have been working on this one song. One of the challenges is that he's in Texas and I am in NY. To help in this process, we each purchased a Tascam home recording system which has been a great tool for emailing our revisions on the song to each other. To complicate matters even further, my co-writer is also my brother. So, with that in mind, we fight like siblings do and me being the kid sister, I have to fight extra hard to make my points and not be bullied. Through this whole process, we have hurt one anothers feelings, fought for control, insulted each other and then finally we got all that garbage out of the way and we've come to a place of mutual respect and enough harmony to actually work well together. I've got to tell you, I may be "black and blue" from all the long distance fighting, but man, you'd all be proud of me if you could see him!! All kidding aside, this is what I have learned: whoever your future co-writer is, if you don't like his music and respect his talent, don't bother trying to co-write. With that mutual respect in place you can bring out the best in each other that's going to result in an awesome song. We aren't finished yet, but we're getting close. I'll let you all know when the demo's done. I'd love to hear your comments. Thank you all of you for the invaluable lessons learned in this thread.

In the meantime, I've got to share some exciting news. My brother's song "Moving Billboard Picture Show"is now #1 on the European charts! You can listen to this song at: www.garycurtis.biz. Song written by: John Rose. Sung by Gary Curtis and Billy Swan. You may remember Billy from the hit single "I Can Help". Billy is currently trying to get the song released here in the US. God, I hope this doesn't mean my brother's ego is going to be bigger than it already is!! I may have to beat him up some more!!:) Very proud of my big bro!!

Donna,

Send your brother to me. I can take anybody down a few notches and make them feel like it's their idea! LOL! One of my little "Rain Man" skills, open manipulation of feelings and thoughts. I should form my own little Charles Manson group!!!

Never date your brother or end up in a co-writing relationship. Ask the Osmonds!!!!! I am in a silly mood today. You are actually doing fine.

Take the experience and learn from it in future things. Yes, siblings can often be an impediment to working together. Two of my back up singers were twins and ended up getting a major record deal with two top tens. The Kinley's were like my Sisters and often they found it difficult to work together. and THEY LOVED EACH OTHER incredibly. Sometimes I was the "brother in the middle." As they got their deal, they often called on me to help moderate. Not an easy thing.

Everything is a learning experience. Sometimes the first one is hard and then other ones work out. Or you decide to be freinds (or related) and not write. I have about two dozen very close friends who are hit writers that I really don't care to write with. Our styles just don't mesh. I would rather have the friendship even if it means missing a cut. That keeps me much happier.

Now get out and write some other songs. After months you should be having dozens of songs pouring out. Write about how much an ass your brother is. That should be good for three or four!!!


Just kidding.

MAB

Hey Donna...

I have only 2 writer's that I have colab'd with and I assure you I am dang lucky to have them...You learn alot working as a team...They teach me more than I can honestly give them back at this time...It is like a marriage you have to give and take...compromise...but you work towards a common goal...produce a more excellant product than you can do on your own...

Larry