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Tomorrow I am picking up a Zoom H4 mini recorder. Has anyone used these things for songwriting and pre-recording mix ideas? Up to now, when I created a song, I used a normal dictation machine. Fine for words, and basic melody. But then, I'd take it to studio and begin all over again-this time to incorporate instruments, and hear clearer how things would all work together, nuances etc. Of course that can be time-consuming. I am hoping that with the little H4 fella, I will be able to sit here, and layer some tracks and have a glimpse of the work way further down the road with the multitrack function. Hopefully I'll hear how instruments will work together, break strategies, EQ clashes etc. sonic problems opportunities etc. And I am hoping this will occur way ahead of setting up in the studio. Anyone else who has used one of these? Am I being overy optimistic that it will cut down dramatically on studio time? Thanks

Paul Ryan
www.ryantunes.com

As I understand it, the original H4 was just a stereo recorder while the newer H4n will let you record up to 4 tracks but I'm not sure whether it will work in the same way as a conventional portastudio/multitracker. You might be better off looking at something like the Fostex MR8 or Zoom H16 which are possibly more appropriate for what you want to do.

Our bass player has just bought himself an H2 which is great for recording rehearsals - the H4 has better mic inputs though.

Cheers

James.

Yes, I'm with James; make sure the H4 will do what you want.

A couple of friends have the H2 which I have played with a bit. It is really great for recording rehearsals, gigs, etc. or for laying down scratch tracks which can then be transferred to a computer workstation and built upon.

Thanks guys. Yes, the H4 has a 4 track multitrack function plus a 2-track stereo function. You choose one or the other for recording. I plan to use the 2-track early during songwriting and tune forming and the 4-track later on when it's more crystalized adn I bring instruments in. Picked it up earlier and I've been playing with it a bit tonight. The the sound isn't bad at all, but no way you could use it for a studio quality sound. However you apparently can put pro mics through it, if you want to (not sure I'll go that far). I am thinking of it more as an early generation mix-idea tool. It came with cubase, so there is obviously a computer mix interface. So far my summary is: At best it will do what I'd hoped with the multitrack mix allowing for me to hear how different instruments can be worked. At worst it is already way way better than my old dictaphone during the songwriting phase. So far so good.

Paul Ryan
www.ryantunes

Why not use a laptop? There are many (paid and free) software options out there. A mic is very cheap as well, and you get the high quality layout you want from the very beginning. You can even start working on editing the song right after you recorded something.

I also was thinking a lot about getting a pocket studio (was looking into the Boss BR), but realized it's just another gadget that does what my laptop can do quite easily. Though smaller...

I have an H4, the reason I got one was I used a friends that we tried out for use at a local colleges radio station. We ended up purchasing 2 of them for the station.

I record in mp3 on mine, you can fit a lot in there this way. If you use the 4 track recording, you have to record in wav format and it uses up a lot more space.

It sounds like it will be the perfect tool for what you want to do. The best way to cut down on studio time is to know your material cold. Have fun and good luck.

I agree about the laptop.....the quality of MOST portable devices is suspect....certainly no good for anything other than very rough recordings.....a laptop and an interface will give you better than CD quality....a good interface is about the same price or even less than a digital recorder......buying a digital recorder IMO is a waste ot money.

On my Myspace site, the song titled "Mmmmm, Buzzz, Click" is actually a podcast of three tunes that were recorded with my H4. I hand held the H4 while recording. Granted the original use for the H4 was intended for oral interviews, but they worked quite well in a live situation. Great for catching those little bits that will never happen again...

Jim - have you tried any of the little Zoom recorders? They're nothing like the older dictaphone style recorders that you might be thinking of. The built-in mics may not be up to the standard of Neumann KM84's but they'll give any of the cheaper small diaphragm condenser mics a good run for the money. The H4 has microphone inputs that are easily as good as, if not better than, most budget soundcards while the H2 inputs are certainly better than those built-in to most computers.

Cheers

James.

I have not tried the Zoom but have used similar type devices...they are pretty good for capturing ambient noise or taking a quick record of something as a ref. I would not use them as a serious recording application as they do not have enough control, storage or ins and outs for band work. We use mixing desks linked to a PC for live recordings. I also have a home studio and access to a pro studio so do not realy need this type of thing.
The specs do look pretty good and I am sure many people will find them useful....My only nit is the price.....I would rather use a desk with firewire or usb or take along an interface plugged straight into a laptop. These things have come down a lot recently and are comparable.
BTW is reaper still a freebie?....I had it a while back just to try it out. I now use Cubase as all my friend have it and it makes life a lot easier with us all using the same softwre.

REAPER is still free to try with no restrictions other than a nag screen that shows up when you open the application. If you like it, a license is $60US for non-commercial use. It's my main app these days.

http://www.reaper.fm/

Hi Patrick thanks for info.... Reaper is a neat prog....it has more to offer than Audacity...perhaps not as user friendly for beginners though. If it is free I would suggest folks try it out.
Even at $60 well worth the money. I would not give up Cubase now even for a freebie.....as I said all my friends and the studios I use have it.....it makes life a lot easier if we all sing from the same hymn book.

Reaper is my main program now - although I still use Adobe Audition for its restoration features. It works well with a wide variety of hardware from a basic built-in sound chip to a 26 channel multitrack interface (and probably more).

If you need to translate work from other programs to/from Reaper then it would be worth taking a look at AA Translator which can handle Nuendo (and hence probably Cubase) amongst all kinds of other formats. Like the Reaper guys, the developer is very responsive to suggestions.

Cheers

James.

On the laptop/H4 question. The only reason for buying this is to lay things down real fast, and on the move - not for final recording. On the laptop, for me just not as practical. As an example, over the weekend I was sitting in a mall waiting for my significant other shopping. That little H4 was in a pocket. I was thinking of a tune and subject idea. I turned the little fella on, hummed a rough tuneline, put down a few words and the general subject idea, turned it off. Total elapsed time-maybe maybe 1 minute?. Later at the hotel, just put a guitar behind it, sharpened it up and voila, I had a first draft. Portable, quick. The laptop could have done all of that I suppose but, I didnt need to cart it around with me, take it from the case, turn on/off wait for the boot, start a file, remember to put the mic in the case (not crazy about the computer mic) etc. Each of those by itself is no big deal, but combined is a pain-esp the carrying around part. I wanted an invisible, easy and fast tool and the Zoom gets it done.

Paul Ryan
www.ryantunes.com

btw-James On AATranslator agree 100% about their customer service. For final tracking, my .ses files need to go from Audition on my computer, and to my producer's machine (Nuendo). Unfortunately it isn't working and for the past month or so (on and off), AAT has been trying to help get my producer's machine to read my session file. Great guys. They are going way beyond the xtra mile for one potential customer in my case.

Paul Ryan
www.ryantunes.com

Paul you summed it up...the little Zoom gizmo is ok for a very rough laydown of ideas. Anythng beyond that where you would want quality recording and the ability to multitrack I would use a PC or a laptop. It is horses for courses. I have several little MP3 players that have a built in mic and up to 2GB storage. They are the size of a cig lighter. For the purposes you want they might be better and a lot cheaper alternative. They retail for just a few bucks.

Jim - There is absolutely no comparison between the Zoom recorders and those MP3 players (I own a couple too). Yes, the MP3 players are OK for recording the spoken word but their recordings are obviously not up to anything more. The Zoom recorders are very different - I could certainly envisage a track recorded on one ending up as part of a final master if the performance was good enough. They are much less fiddly to use than an mp3 player and are also far superior to the built-in audio on most laptops too.

If you haven't done so already, you really ought to give one a try before dismissing them.

Cheers

James.

Right on James. I probably could have filled in that scenario a bit more. But the point is that by the end of the night, that germ of a song idea, noodling away in a mall, was a four track fairly decent sounding mix. I was already looking to dress up the lyrics, and add some subtleties to the tune, chord substitutions etc. The 2 units are not even close for usage and functionality. I could never have been this far along so quickly with the old unit. In this case, the next day I was already testing for optimal instrument combo's that would reduce common frequencies, looking at arpeggio ideas and so on. Again no real formal setup-just the machine, the instrument and moi. Previously all that would all have been done in studio. What you get with the Zoom is basically instant acceleration from zero, and well into the mix plan. For any song idea that makes it past the "Zoom phase, by the time I get to studio now, the instruments, the song and even some mix ideas are all ready to go.

Paul Ryan
www.ryantunes.com

I have an Edirol R-09. I have used it mostly for interviews, but occasionally for sampled sounds. It can do 24bit 96khz, which is useful for pro quality.

I import the samples into my daw and fiddle around. You know, the old Steve Cropper trick with a bouncing baseball as kick drum sound. Not that good with the tweaking yet, though :-)

With all the stuff around, I don't use it much now, but hope to get more time to sample original sounds in the furture..

From all I've heard from several internet conversations I've had, that Zoom is an excellent little notepad AND can also capture a great recording. Sort of wish I had one for long drives.

Pocket studios are great for recording practices, or getting ideas down, but I prefer to record directly to my computer. I have a Boss Micro BR... never use it. I'm just keeping it so I can say I have a multi-track recording device that can fit in the palm of my hand. It's like a piece of furniture now.

I have a Tascam pocket recorder and the quality is quite good for a little, casual recorder but they are very limited. One issue is the fact that if you touch it when recording you can hear that as a noise on the recording. Some of them now have remote controls. I use it for recording notes on songs as ideas come to me - particularly at night. It should be quite useful in certain limited circumstances (like recording a live performance for casual use) - but I don't think it would be very useful for serious recording. It is far too limited, cannot do editing etc.

They are cool toys.

Tom