JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum Collabs are rampant these days!

I just noticed that 11 or 12 of the first 20 songs on the MP3 forum are collaborations and/or co-writes. Is this % higher than in the past? I went back to page 50 (2 collabs) and page 100 (1 collab) just to see -- not a scientific study though, LOL!

Kevin

Guess we're all having fun together!

Kevin,

It is something that is more and more common in the overall music industry. If you are doing this at all, you start going to workshops, make trips to a music center, study songwriting/artists web sites, watch entertainment television or DVD's, or study the history of music, you find that actually collaborations are the rule rather than the exception.

You only have to be around it a little while to realize there are some very basic reasons for it. the least not being that someone playing to someone else's strength while someone filling in their own weaknesses and learning the craft insist upon it.

But over the past ten years it has become not only suggested but a requirement. You write a song by your self and you then go "Now What?" About ninety per cent of threads like these are dedicated to pitching, TAXI, PRO's Publishing, songwriting pitch services,finding ways to market music. You have to get in the doors. So how you do that is collaborate. It opens up your perspective for the craft, enables you to get out of your own way, addresses problems that might come up in critiques earlier rather than later, and then gives you contacts you did not have on your own.

In Nashville it is the way of life. The entire town is founded
on it. The Music Row area is three blocks wide and 16 blocks long of small houses next door to each other. The place was founded as a neighborhood of writers, artists, publishing and record companies, close proximaty to reinforce that community. And while we now have major conglamorates intersperced as well, it still has that small town feel.

You are probably seeing the effects here. Most people that are interested in songwriting in this day and age make a pilgramage to Nashville at some point, whether to be involved or just as a fact finding mission. So they see and hear that over and over and finally it sinks in. This is truely a community type business and you cannot do it alone.
So the co-writing is an extension of that. That would be my two cents on why you are seeing that effect. It is simply the way things are done. And throughout history, you see many more songwriting collaborations than you ever see solo writing.

MAB

I am working with six other songwriters (five from JPF) on songs for Justice's new cd. It is a great experience and the songs are better than I can do on my own.

Tom

I love collaborating and I've found fantastic collaborators on JPF.
___________________________________________
Nadia
http://iacmusic.com/artist.aspx?id=137230
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=936270
http://www.songramp.com/homepage.php?userid=27495
http://www.showcaseyourmusic.com/nlcripps

HIYa Kevin!

Perhaps The Economy has a bit to do with it, too. I no longer have the loot to visit a Studio..BUT...I gladly share 1/2 my Song with those who can "Musicate" a lyric & do the Demo.

Of-Late, my co's with JPFers have been doin' well...

"God's Like That" Co-ed by IdaMarie Naelitz: Held by Oak Ridge Boys.
"A Little Less Food (& a Lot More Beer)" Co-ed by Canada's Doug Murphey is in "The Shoebox"...NightShift's first Indie Movie, now in-production.
"Livin' On UN-Easy Street" Co-ed with Oregon's Joe Wrabek for his "Failed Economy Concert" is among his "Most-Requested".
"It's OK to Cry" (Coed with Tampa JPFer Andy Karpinsky) and "You Saved Me" (Co-ed by JPF-NY's Mark Schuessler) are on Branson Emerging Artist Jamie Asselin's new CD.
"Let's Play With DNA" is in finishing stages with JPF-Scotland's
"Big Jim Merrilees" as of this week (& it's a blast...you'll hear it soon at the MP3 Board here.)
I'm a-waitin' to hear JPF-Denmark's "SoundCabinet"'s music on "A Black Belt In Love"...'cuz it, too, promises to be a Good'n'...

In Short...(Finally)...I'm having a pretty good year with CO-Writes from my fellow Music Folks out there in JPF-Land/Still hoping to do MORE!~

Stay Tuned....& a Big Guy-Hug,
Stan

Let me play the "Devil's Advocate" here without wanting to ruffle any feathers or stomp on any egos.

There is nothing wrong with collaboration as long as it is truly a "team effort." Leave your ego at the door if you plan to do many collabs. Be willing to hear your co-writer's ideas thoroughly before commenting or just slamming the door.

Here are the negatives to collaborations:

1. It can often lead to a mediocre song. (Too many cooks in the kitchen can spoil the brew)

2. Many collaborators are not skilled in the art of negotiation and "wear their feelings on their sleeves."

3. Sometimes, the "musicator" assumes that he/she is the senior partner and only "tolerates" the lyricist.

There must be a dozen more reasons but these three seem to be prevalent. Collaboration, as Marc has said, is truly a path to success in the music world of today. I've had several very good collabs and a few complete disasters. Choose your partners carefully, establish ground rules and agreements, expect timeliness and apply the same rules to yourself. Most of all, try to create an atmosphere of levity and enjoy the human aspect of building something together. Best wishes for success.

It's so true, collaboration can be a good thing or a bad one depending on so many things.
I suppose I've been lucky and I love collaborating with other songwriters, singers and instrumentalists. I think mutual trust, respect, honesty and loyalty are very important. I also think, whatever works, if some songwriters prefer to create songs on their own, let be it, it's their decision, there is no one rule for everybody. The main thing is enjoying the songwriting and believing in yourself/ves. I wish good luck to everybody here. We are all here to share our own experiences and our creations and it's so fantastic. Thank you so much everybody.
Kindness regards,
_________________________
Nadia
http://iacmusic.com/artist.aspx?id=137230
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=936270
http://www.songramp.com/homepage.php?userid=27495
http://www.showcaseyourmusic.com/nlcripps

The difficult thing about collaborations is when something does not work out and one is working with a terrific person. It is hard to say - "That does not work" or "Sorry, I don't like that."

Tom

I think it depends what doesn't work out. If you mean you don't like something in the song, of course it's important to say it (in a nice way of course). It's so important to make sure that both collaborators agree during the process of collaborating and a reasonable compromise is one of the way to achieve it. It's not possible to agree to everything. It's like in marriage - collaborating is a partnership and there will be agreements and disagreements. If you mean - the song is never making it - well, these days it's often the case with so many songs, it wouldn't be a fault of your collaborator. There are so many aspects in collaborating and one collaboration is different from another.
_________________________
Nadia
http://iacmusic.com/artist.aspx?id=137230
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=936270
http://www.songramp.com/homepage.php?userid=27495
http://www.showcaseyourmusic.com/nlcripps

I get very bored writing by myself.

MAB

Me too, I tried an online "dating site" to find Missus Write...but I've found it's easier to hit things off in person.

I've found more collaborators thanks to JPF than when I've tried in person. It's truly a wonderful site.
Nadia

I get bored writing myself too, but I have the disadvantage that Im a slow thinker, so I have a hard time to come up with good lines in the moment of a cowriting session. It's been like that for 20 years with me, so it's not just that I lack experience.

For me, the best ones often come long after the fact, and then if Im in a cowriting session, the train is really gone before I have entered the station. It's different with playing, though, as Im quicker to improvise with my hands and ears, but not my mind..

I try to handle my 'slow' disadvantage by bringing a bunch of stuff to the table (to get others to work hard too ), and have dictionaries beside me, so I can do it. Im amazed every time what the spontaneity of writing together in real time can achieve!

But I wouldn't only do collabs without doing my own stuff, as well. It's when I write on my own, that I feel the aphorisms and the great stories that takes a little more time to work out, really can be included in lyrics.

Of course, this is still possible in collabs if you plan for it. But different set-ups (cowriting sessions, writing alone, email cowriting, wrting music to a lyric or vice versa) can really provide a great variety in the output IMO.

Co-writing sessions are not the only way to collaborate and I too take time to compose my music, Nagne. I know some songwriters are really fast. Well, I can improvise easily but I like to put time into creating music when I compose it so I can easily spend months on one co-written song.
Nadia

Magne,

One of the biggest by products of co-writing is pushing the writer on speed and focus. When you have a limited amount of time on something, it brings the discipline to get it finished. Plus with two or more people writing, they are all focused on the same thing, which again, brings different levels to it.

Nadia, to speak to your point, most Nashville sessions are done in twos. One to start the song, generate the idea, design a template for the song. Then usually, the writers do indidual work on the song. Then they get back together and finish it up. One of the reasons on many hit songs you see the same names over and over in this country, is that they finish one song and start another.

One of the biggest problems I get with writers are being unable to finish songs. That is because if you do not put guidelines or deadlines on something, there is no incentive to get it done.

So there are ancilary benefits outside of just the writing of the song. Having multiple people pitching a song, having different avenues of thought going on, building the speed and focus factor in discipline, getting more songs going at the same time, and building future relationships all come into play.

That is why collaboration is more like dating or marriage than just one song. And it can show you the people you DON'T want to hang out with as well.

And that can be very important.

MAB

Sure, there are many ways of collaborating but in spite of taking a long time for each song, I've always finished my projects, MAB. I honestly think, whatever works.

Nadia,

Then you have your pathway down. Most writers are not that disciplined and in a world where the competition is writing hundreds of songs with hundreds of people, they are the ones that generally get the deals, the cuts, the hit records. Time is really not a luxury many in the music business can afford.

So much of what these sites are about are "what do I do with my music? "How do I see publishers?" "What company is going to help me get my music out there?" It is and always has been a numbers game. The reason Mozart, Bach, and others were so successful were because they were prolific. They were usually commissioned to do work, write operas, musicals, etc. and had a very tight time frame to do it in.

With the modern era, when a writer or artist gets hot, the demand for their product goes up and if they don't fulfill that, they are yesterday's news faster than they ever imagined. The reason the Beatles did as well as they did, aside from being genuises, were their output. They wrote all the time. And for every one of the 214 songs people have heard there were probably close to a thousand that were started, finished, or just didn't make the final cut.

So it is good to finish things. But the more you finish, the better off you are and more applicable to the needs of the people who are in the business of promoting music. It is and has always been a numbers game. That is the one thing that never changes.

MAB

Early in my songwriting I tried to find someone to co-write with. As with most I wasn't very good and needed some help. However as time went by I started writing by myself and finishing songs. I'm not sure if Co-written songs or solitary songs are more sucessful but writing hundreds of songs that may never be heard or go anywhere probably is no more than equal songs by a single writer.

I have Registered 60 songs for copyright and can't find a place to pitch most of them. For me forcing a song before it is ready is a big mistake.

My former publisher called me last week about starting up again. If things go as planned we will have another Web Site up where we will put up a selection of songs by the end of the year.

You are right, of course. I really appreciate those parts of cowriting!

Well, you think the numbers are more important, MAB. I have many numbers, not hundreds but many and it doesn't change anything. People say it's who you know and someone on this forum said that it's who knows you. If nobody knows me (in music business) I can compose millions of songs but nothing will change.

Just as a matter of interest has anybody pitched a collab and how did they get on? I have not heard of any collabs being pitched so I would assume the figures are quite low compared to the huge amount of collabs written. Interesting to hear peoples reasons for writing collabs apart from just a fun exercise and why they would not consider pitching...some might not even know anyone to pitch to.
The comment about online dating brought a smile to my face. Writing a collab here is a bit like online dating...you never know who you will meet, what sort of relationship you will have and how things will turn out in the end. Will it be happy ever after, end in divorce or will you even get past first base.
One thing for sure it is always a learning experience. LOL

Jim,

One hundred percent of what I have had cut were collaborations. Five major label cuts probably a couple hundred independent cuts. And One hundred of what I pitch are collaborations. I do write a few things myself but they have very little interest to me. Since I am teaching by doing, it is the little light bulbs that go off over their heads showing them a way to do something they didn't think of before that is the reward to me. And then to see songs they write later with other people are what makes things work for me.

Nadia, I am pretty sure on here I was the one that said "Nashville is not about who you know. It is about WHO knows you and how they know you." But I didn't start that saying. As far as I can tell it came from the fifties in Nashville but one of the first people I knew about saying it was Kris Kristofferson, who said it in the seventies. Someone told me that Brian Epstein told the Beatles that in the 60's as well, but I have never seen that personally.

Not much has changed over the years. That is pretty much how music has always been, from the writers, to the artists, to the publishers, to the record companies, to the fans, it is always pretty much about who knows you and how they know you.

MAB

Hi Jim. I've sent many of my cpllabs to publishers but nothing has been taken so far. I have to say I really hate with passion these letters which I call thank you but no thank you letters which could have been addressed to anyone and clearly show that no one bothered to listen to our songs. I wonder what other songwriters will say about their personal experience of submitting collabs.
_________________________
Nadia
http://iacmusic.com/artist.aspx?id=137230
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=936270
http://www.songramp.com/homepage.php?userid=27495
http://www.showcaseyourmusic.com/nlcripps

Hi Nadia submissions are like junk mail unless they come from a bona fide source. Do you open, read and reply to junk mail? Not many people I know open or read junk mail therefore it is no surprise that the record companies who get hundreds of thousands of unsolicited submissions do not have the time or inclination to listen to them either. There is more than enough great material already in their vaults and even that takes some amount of work separating the wheat from the chaff. The fact that you have even received a "nice no thank you" letter back is a triumph. I would concentrate on making quality demos of your very best songs and finding out WHO exactly to pitch to. Find out who is actually currently in the market for your kind of material. Do your homework and target market. I use this analogy....More chance hitting your target firing a rifle with a telescopic laser sight than letting off a machine gun in the dark when you know there is no one around.... that is just wasting time and costly ammo. Buy the trade magazines and look at the ads as a starting point. Visit the web sites of the people you may want to deal with and find out how to get in touch with them properly. Contact agents and management companies. You need to change how you are going about things so you can be more productive. Even then there is only a slim chance you will be successful but if you want it you cannot give up....TRY HARDER get a thicker skin and be more persistent.

Good advice, somewhat largeish James.

Also, I would add Nadia, to visit places where music is played. Support other musicians and they will support you. I know it gets difficult with time, money, etc. But it is really the only way to break through the walls.

The average publisher, PRO's artists, producers, record labels, etc. go through Hundreds of songs every few days. There is simply no physical way to go through all the stuff that comes in. So they only deal with people they know.

And then there are the really weird people. I am right now getting very threatening e-mails from a guy who dislikes what I said about his music. He is making all kinds of very odd overtures toward me and other people in Nashville. There are some real weidos out there and we get them all the time.

So just think about how you would like to be approached if the roles were reversed. There are some great people out there, but you really have to go the extra mile to let them know who you are. If you don't, your competition does.

MAB

Two writers = double the exposure, and double the opportunity.

Besides, it's more fun, and can often bring up a better result.

cheers, niteshift

Hi Jim. I know what you are saying and I agree, I don't like junk mail and that's why I've never once sent my music without asking over the phone and receiving a positive yes from the publishers and record labels. The response is agreeable and they sound keen. I wish they'd tell me the truth - that they are not at all interested in any submission from an unknown songwriter like me. I wouldn't spend my time and effort sending them my submissions then. Yes, I'm all for a role playing, I can easily imagine myself being in their position, Marc and I would never tell people that I'd love to hear their music and I will get back to them straight away. Why promise if you know that you are not going to spend any serious time listening so that you are in a position to get back. No, I don't believe that in 10 seconds you will know if the song is good. I tested it, there were so many songs I didn't think much of in 10 seconds and after that, at some point I was totally taken by them. Of course you can say so what, I'm not a publisher. Well, it's true but all I'm saying is they shouldn't promise something they are not going to deliver. They shouldn't call themselves pro active and they shouldn't reply that they only need 1 week and they will definitely get back. I went to other sides of London when I was told that the publishers didn't receive my submission via the post and I delivered my music in hand to the right publishers who looked into my eyes and said that they would call me in a week time. That was in 2004! I just think that it is not fair, that's all.
Yes, nighshift, in theory you are right but unfortunately there is no formula which is working that way, it depends on so many things. I wish it was the way you are saying, it sounds so nice and you can extend it to 3 collaborators triple the opportunity. Well, I'd like to believe that.
I'm sorry for sounding pessimistic. It has been a long time since I've started to submit my music and I do my homework spending too much on computer and talking to everyone I can imagine. So much time, effort, energy and wasted hopes and nothing changes. Yes, I've tried to arrange good recordings but you know, it's still the same, if no one in business listens to my music, doesn't really matter if all my submissions are radio playing.

Nope, it's not fair. But neither is life in general.

I wouldn't be too dispondent. There's a heck of a lot of music being put out there, and only so many sets of listening ears.

I really would re-work your thinking re the publisher thing. I'm not even sure if real publishers exist any more. Most are simply the publishing arm of the recoed label, or the artists own company.

If at all possible, I'd try to work with indie artists. Look for something that you can provide, in exchange for what they can provide. Opposites attract, as they say.

One thing you might me able to do, is provide simple melody lines for the rap/hip-hop genre. I heard one track the other day where the piano line was not played so good. They looped it, so you had the same mistakes repeating over and over.

Just an example, but you get the drift.

If anyone can provide info as to wether there are any real live publishers available any more, please step foward.

cheers, niteshift

I'm sure you are right, niteshift. Well, may be someone here has a more optimistic expersience, would be interesting to know.
Nadia

For what it is worth most of the chart music is not great...most people on this forum could produce music just as good if not better than a lot of the top 40 chart stuff....I bet if Taylor Swift anonymously sent in a new song unsolicited, even if it was her very best, it would be filed in the garbage bin unlistened to with all the others...and I bet that even if it was listened to it would still find its way into the bin. This illustrates the point it is not what you know but who you know. The best songwriter has no chance without the right connections and introductions. All the brothers, sisters, sons and daughters of existing stars who also coincidentally make the big time did not get there by talent or being discovered in a small pub. Their famous relatives put in a good word and asked for a favour.
I remember hearing about a famous songwriter who tried out the system by sending in stuff under a fictitious name and address....he found that his stuff was rejected.....The same stuff put in his own name was cut and made number one. No point in complaining...just make the best music you can and try your hardest to pitch it in the hope you get lucky......It is like a lottery. You cannot win unless you buy a ticket.

Interesting, Jim. So, there is no hope but try in case you get lucky. Yes, very interesting.

Hi Big Jim,

To me, it seems you have "faulty logic"...you set up an unresolved hypothesis

I bet if Taylor Swift anonymously sent in a new song unsolicited, even if it was her very best, it would be filed in the garbage bin unlistened to with all the others...and I bet that even if it was listened to it would still find its way into the bin

and then automatically claim to "win" that bet with

This illustrates the point it is not what you know but who you know.

But you can't prove a point with a hypothesis, with a "bet" unless you actually carry out that bet!!!. Just because "you think" you would win your bet, doesn't mean you have, and so have proven NO point, here.

I bet if Ms. Swift sent the same demo to 100 labels, 50 would end up in the garbage. 40 would reject her, because she sounded "just like Taylor Swift." The last 10 would sign her, because she sounded "just like Taylor Swift." ...but I'm not going "in search of" any deep seated implications, from my bogus data, other than...it's fun coming up with bogus data.

From my POV, it seems like, seems like...those who have had marginal to little success in "the biz" are more likely to have a "sour grapes" outlook; and those with more success, or are at least happier with their situation, are more likely to say, "keep trying, work at it like your life depends upon it, because sooner or later creme rises to the top." Now I'm sure there are exceptions, but I can't remember when I last heard a successful producer or artist who said "it's who you know." Generally they say, "keep working at it...if it's what you love to do, at least you're spending your time doing what you love."

I believe there is always a bit of a "self fulfilling prophecy" at work, in one's outlook...that what you truly believe in, you tend to advance towards...so...as a strategy for success, I would always prefer positivity and desire, over negativity and skepticism, but that's just me.

Mike

Well Michael if you read ALL my post you would see that I cited the case of the songwriter who set out to prove the point and proved it. I will not name him but he proves the point.
Human nature that those with limited talent who do make it will not admit that they got there by luck or knowing someone.
Human nature that those who have not made it but DO have talent will have sour grapes looking at lesser mortals who have made it.
There are exceptions EG. Madonna who slept her way to stardom and freely admits it. But the rules mainly apply "stay schtoom once you make it"
I agree that positive thinking and self belief is a great thing and it keeps you going but there is a fine line between keeping positive and a delusion that you will make it against all odds when the odds are stacked very heavily against you.
Are you saying that life is fair and the cream always rise and that talent is always rewarded? You would not be the first to be delusional in this way.

I too agree about being positive and striving to get what you want but am not naive enough to believe that you will always get it.

Big Jim,

I did read ALL your post, but because "some famous songwriter" sends out a song and gets rejected, does NOT mean that Taylor Swift sends out her best song and gets rejected.

You didn't name "some famous songwriter", you named Taylor Swift, and again said this:

I bet if Taylor Swift anonymously sent in a new song unsolicited, even if it was her very best, it would be filed in the garbage bin unlistened to with all the others...and I bet that even if it was listened to it would still find its way into the bin

and then you said

"THIS proves my point", THIS being the Taylor Swift example, not SOME FAMOUS SONGWRITER.

Telling me "some famous songwriter" did that, qualifies as URBAN LEGEND, unless I know exactly WHO you are talking about. Who might that be, Jim? And Jim, even if this guy exists, why did you not simply use HIM in your example? The way you set up your "argument"...it is EASY to knock down. You would have been more convincing researching, finding out "famous songwriter's name", citing your sources, and THEN presenting your argument.

I know HOW to read, and I know WHAT you said, Jim, okay?

Perhaps you skipped logic class in high school?

You say:

I too agree about being positive and striving to get what you want but am not naive enough to believe that you will always get it.

Feel free, Jim, to point out in anything I have written here that remotely suggests that if you "believe hard enough , that you will automatically get it." All I am suggesting is that desire develops an edge, and that believing that it can happen is better than believing it can't...I mean, if you believe it can't, or is unlikely, then why try? And then, maybe it's conductive to less effort, this skepticism?

Mike

Wow,

We always get back to Taylor Swift don't we. Well, she was unknown. She wrote a song called "Tim McGraw' by herself for a talent contest at her school when she was 14 years old. She didn't send in any anonomys songs because she didn't have to. Several people told other people about her and she ended up with a Sony publishing executive with very long track record. He helped her be developed over a period of two years.

She attracted several people including a woman who had been around called Liz Rose. The reason she attracted Liz, Scott Borchetta and everyone else is because she stood out from the other 20,000 American Idol and Nashville Star Wanna be's who were young, blonde, attractive and could half way sing. She stood out from a pack that tons of people were trying to promote the same way and blew away people every single time. At the same time a hollywood actress with ten times the promotional money tried to do the same thing and went nowhere.

I just don't get the belittling nature of people that dismiss her. from my point of view, that is simply ignorance. But that is fine. As Ringo Starr once said, "When we started out, people laughed at us." So history repeats itself.

She appeals to a HUGE audience and is the biggest thing going on in music. She is respected by the biggest names in show business and you cannot fake that. Too many people try and fail.

Nadia,

The fact is that everybody is a nobody at first. And most of us never do much. That is the nature of the beast. Nobody sent for any of us. Nobody can force people to like us or our music. But it does no good to be dissapointed or dejected. You just have to keep working.

Thomas Edison failed 3,999 times before he invented the incandessant light bulb. I think you should read some biographies on some of your favorite writers, artists, composers, etc. and find out what they went through. You will probably find out it was constant rejection, constant dissapointment. And the truth is that when people "make it" which is a very subjective term, many times they are no happier than before they were anybody.

Just be the best you can be. Reach out to others and find allies. You have to have more than just some ideas on songs or songs. You have to have a team of people who believe in you and promote you as much as you promote you. That is a career.

MAB

Maybe the best strategy is do it cuz you love it...then...ANY success...is creme.

I love you guys!!!!! I'm just a novice, but you all do know of what you speak. I want bore you with yesteryear stories, but I've been praised for my lyrics by one pro, and then chewed up by another for the same set of lyrics. All I know is I'll keep writing, learning and going to clubs to listen to those up-and-comers.

What I've learned from reading all your posts has encouraged me.
Nadia, I know too how you feel. If not getting heard makes you want to pull your hair out then you will go crazy. Relax and write and listen to these guys. It may not be what you want to hear but you need to hear it.

redwing

Well Michael the urban legend will remain an urban legend. I have no intention of namedropping in this case. If you do not believe me then that is OK. If you do not accept that a lot of undeserving untalented people get there by connections and getting a boost from people in the know who they know then that is also OK. I know different. I admire positive thinking....but I also admire realism. A dream is great and everyone should strive to attain goals. That said no point in getting completely deflated because your pie in the sky dream is unattainable. That is my point and I fail to understand why this point is coming under attack. It is not being cynical negative or being skeptic...it is being truthful and realistic.
I know lots of positive minded, dedicated, very talented people who have not made it and probably never will. Sadly I also know people with talent which lies somewhere between non existent and very very limited who have made it really big.
Nothing wrong with positiveness and desire but..... a bit of luck and a relative or friend in the know wins every time over positiveness and desire. Talent and drive does not even enter the equation.

Jim it's not a question of believing you or not. You make a claim involving a songwriter, and it's just natural curiosity, as well as "good debate etiquette" to have sources, or at least the name of the songwriter in question. Otherwise you have no case, no proof of anything.


I never said this. Of course this is true, in many cases, maybe in a majority. What I said was: 1) enjoy what you do 2) let your desire pave the way 2) believe in yourself, and that you can be successful.



Jim, the ONLY thing I attacked was you coming to the conclusion "This illustrates the point it is not what you know but who you know." based on betting Taylor Swift would not get signed, if she sent in anonymous recordings.

We can agree to disagree about the relative values of skepticism and positivity, in regards to success in the biz. Ultimately, the only thing that matters is that we enjoy what we are doing, so that we don't end up at the end of our life, wishing we had done something else.

Mike

The point that I feel is missing in all these conversations is that no matter what, who, why or when, an artist, a song, a writer, is judged on 15% the song and 85% the networking, personality, and sometimes pure luck, that makes a success. And the bottom line, the music PURCHASING public. That is what you can't fake.

People are judged by personality, attitudes, that is what makes someone want to work with someone else.

Nashville in particular is two things.
The art of the hang.
The art of the referall.

Anyone that succeeds at all has to have a network of friends, co-writers, producers, industry people, that all push that particular person. They have to build fan base. utilize the same tools everyone does. But it can;t be manufactured any more than trends can be created. They can be nurtured and developed with money and power, but they can't be forced on the public.

There are always people that are very deserving yet, never go anywhere. There are those of limited abilities that seem to go everywhere. But when it comes to actual "SALES" that is the bottom line of every thing. There is simply no way to artifically manipulate that, at least for very long. There are flash in the pans, but those are gone very quickly.

It is my opinion that Taylor Swift is going to be one of those that people talk about for a long time. She is VERY smart. And something I have not seen since Garth Brooks. Someone that has engendred respect on almost every level of the playing field, from very experienced writers, very experienced, industry types, very jaded individuals and most of all, with the buying public.

That is my point. You can't fool all of the people all of the time.

MAB

What a good read thank you so much to everybody who takes time and write. Thank you Kevin for starting it. Nice to meet you, redwing. Thank you for your understanding.
Nadia
http://iacmusic.com/artist.aspx?id=137230
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=936270
http://www.songramp.com/homepage.php?userid=27495
http://www.showcaseyourmusic.com/nlcripps

Marc I agree with you however my comments about Taylor Swift could be transferred to just about anybody famous. I just used her as an example to illustrate my point. I still would bet that any big star trying to submit anything under an assumed name would be knocked back. That is the point I was making. I do not rate miss S personally but that is just my opinion. I concede that lots of people do rate her. It is obvious that the business operates on a "who you know network" Your own statements and general comments about networking, team building and the industry in general would suggest that I am right.
As for fooling all the people all the time well a certain Mr Simon Cowell does a pretty good job of that.
Just because someone sells shed loads of recordings does not necessarily mean they are any good. It just means they have a team of good con artists behind them. I am not interested in how much money or how popular people are....too long in the tooth for that...I am only interested in their talent and the quality of their music. There are far too many people in this industry who are punching way above their weight and too many who do not get the credit they deserve.
It often puzzles me that the paying public will listen to and buy any old crap if they are told to. The buying public are generally pretty gullible. I am sure that people who work in advertising have taken that principle to heart and to new levels.
It also puzzles me why people protect these talentless individuals. Why cannot folk be honest and admit that certain folk have very little talent when it should be obvious to everyone that they have been put there under false pretences.
I tend rock the boat.... to call it like it is rather than defending the system just to keep everyone happy. The industry can be pretty corrupt and will always be so.

Big Jim: "to call it like it is ..." --> probably better to say "to call it like it like I see it ...".

Doing any collabs these days?

Kevin

Then I don't stand a chance. For some reason I believe people think I am aloof, which is not true. What they see as aloofness is really shyness and a inferiority complex, which I have had to battle all my life. My lack of outgoingness is a form of self protection to keep from being hurt. A very few close friends know the real me. I am a serious and sincere type, but I also have a funny and fun loving side, which I only show to those close to me. I know that the person who is as foolish as a bag of nail and likes to carry on and joke, is much more liked than a serious guy, but that is not me (I can be after a few drinks, but I don't drink). So as a serious guy, I don't stand a chance, regardless of talent, too many guys or gals out there with out going personalities to attract attention to them and away from me.

Wow Everett! You can be serious and still be liked. It takes a lot to share your feelings, so thats a start. Although I am a big kool-aid drinker when it comes to MAB, I don't think he means that you have to be the life of the party to hang. Thats just my opinion.

redwing

Wow Everett! You can be serious and still be liked. It takes a lot to share your feelings, so thats a start. Although I am a big kool-aid drinker when it comes to MAB, I don't think he means that you have to be the life of the party to hang. Thats just my opinion.

redwing

Guess that was worth saying twice.
Sorry

Hey Everett,

I really don't think that's the case.

Music attracts all personality types. The gregarious ones will want to be out there in the spotlight, as the artist. The quieter ones will do other things in the industry.

It really shows in a studio situation. Those that are serious, are well respected. Are quiet and do their job. No one wants a fruit loop mucking things up. But that's different on stage, you need personality and presence.

The real pros I see in this industry, are quite mellow, kind, and sometimes very insecure people. Quiet and unassuming. They're judged on talent, and talent alone. And they do very well for themselves too.

I often think that the music is an expression, which can't be expressed in another way. Tis for me anyway. ( Not that I'm quiet and unassuming LOL )

It takes all types mate. If you've got the goods, ( as a non-perfomer ) you don't need the veneer.

cheers, niteshift

Everett,

The thing that people find when they come around (not move) Nashville is "Hey this people are ALL just like me." It is called "Finding their tribe." ALL WRITERS ARE Insecure, self aware, shy, nervous, etc. ALL of Them. That is why they write their feelings down in music, so that speaks for them.

People look too often about music and Nashville in particular as if it is all important to get known, get cuts, get rich. And that is so small a part of it. It is about getting to know and being around people just like yourself. Most people will never go anywhere. Even great ones. That is just life.

How many businesses that are started every year fail? About 80% of them. How many people who play the lottery actually win? Less than one per cent.

So all that fame and money and stuff is so fleeting and rarely happens, you can't look at your musical journey in terms of "making it" based upon radio hits, or things like that. I know tons of "local" heros that have good music, fan base, and make very decent livings. But they come to Nashville to soak up the creativity and be a part of a vibrant society.

I have never, ever, ever, met a hit writer that ever made money a primary part of their musical journey. Tomorrow night in Cincinatti I am playing with two of them who are good friends of mine. Will Nance has had about three George Straight number ones and a recent Brad Paisley number one. The other is Danny Wells, who wrote "These Days" a huge Rascal Flatts number one and "Check Yes or No" a huge George Straight number one.

I have known these guys for years, long before they got successful. And they are exactly the same now as they were then. They want to share their music with as many people as they can. They want to write songs that make the world sing along. That is the point. Making money or getting hits is actually pretty far down the line. It is in the back of everybody's mind, to be sur. This is business. But it is simply not the determining factor.

You have to separate the facts from fiction in business. Just like a store or a resturant, you have to know what your competition is doing, but you spend the most amount of time developing and distributing your own product. That is what we all do. Some people are hit writers because they make great product. Some are lucky but they had a hand in getting the right product into the right places at the right time.

Everything is about upping the level of your odds. You co-write with people, bring them into your songwriting universe, you up the level of your odds. You meet people who like you and want to pass your music along, whether they are publishers or pluggers or just the general public who want someone they know to hear you, that ups the level of your odds. You build upon one song, one co-write, to other songs, other co-writes, solo songs come in when you have the back doors open.

And then it is so much up to the fates, luck and outside influences you NEVER will have anything to do with, you can't worry about that stuff. Only worry about what you can do.

So shy? Join the club. Everyone is. Everyone is afraid of rejection. Everyone is scared of their music not measuring up. Everyone is scared of failure. That is all just part of it.

MAB