JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Lack of critique in the mp3 Feedback Forum

I'm personally happy with the way this thread turned out. I think it was constructive and respectful. Mike Caro made the statement that he thinks folks should state what kind of feedback they're looking for when they offer a song up in the mp3 forum. I really agree with this. If everyone did this I'd be a really happy camper!

Up to this point I've responded to everyone who's replied to me which I'm not going to do from here on out - All the best to everyone - See you in the mp3 forum.

Peace,

Ian


I love and appreciate JPF. It's a great place and it's in that attitude that I make this comment...

I've been an off and on contributer to the mp3 forum for a few years now. For me, making music is always about getting better. I want to know what works and what doesn't. And I pretty much always point out the good AND 'needs improvement' when making comments.

It seems to me that most comments don't have a constructively critical element. I wish they did. It really seems most comments are non-critical praises only. Without any critique. Just praise.

I think it's great that folks are so respectful. But JPF is maybe the biggest songwriting forum? I guess I just wish that there was a bigger embracing of constructive criticism here. Criticism is hard to take at first. But you get used to it and then you start to identify and apply stuff and you get better. And when you listen to others stuff with a critical ear, you start listening to your own stuff better. If criticism is done in a good constructive spirit it tremendously positive IMO. I just wish there was more of it here at JPF.

Ian Ferrin's 2¢ - I say again... I TRULY appreciate everyone here. This is a great place and the above is said in a true spirit of appreciation.

Peace,

Ian

Post a link to your song in this main forum, and I guarantee you'll get some critical critiques. ;-)

heh heh....this is funny to me.

Hey Ian, It does seem like a good ol' boy thing doesn't it? I don't think that it really is. For one thing the real heavyweights shy away from the MP3 forum. They have their reasons. I only frequent the board when I have a song, which is rare.

The critiques that I have gotten over the years have always been honest and educational. You may see familiar names, but they are only people who frequent that board more often. That doesn't mean that they are a good ol' boy.

We have had this discussion before. It will take time for you to trust the critques that you get here. It's better than paying for a critique.

Thanks Ben,

I'm guessing that this isn't a totally new topic, but I've never discussed it here so I thought I'd post.

I don't have a problem with ANY critiques... My point is that I wish we had more! I've probably posted 10-20 songs over the last few years. I agree there's some good constructive comments here. But in my experience most comments don't have a constructive element. I'm not trying to critique the board either. I guess, partly, I'm just wondering why this is?

Peace and Shalom and Pas,

Ian

Ian, there is a forum here for people who want to learn how to properly critque. I don't use it myself because I don't like to critque other peoples music. I am a bad writer.

I listen to the stuff over at the MP3 forum as much as I can, and say what I DO like. There's rarely something I DON'T like. I think we have such damned good writers here, there's not a whole lot to critique. We have such a wide variety of stuff going on, and most of the people who put their songs up are just really good at what they do, and then the collabs, well, those are FABULOUS! I think we just have some really extraoridinary talent going on here, better than the average bear.

I think there's many who might agree with you. I think it's exactly this attitude I'm trying to challenge.

Think about all the elements of a demo... Melody, Lyrics, Production, Arrangement, Rhythm, Overall sound, Balance, Groove, the Vocal, the instrumental performances, the mix....the song itself... and on and on. There's SOOOO many elements to a recording. Surely there must be something you find not completely perfect? Something that could be improved? Don't we all want to have better tunes? Don't most people here have dreams of making their mark on the world with their music? How is that possible without really good recordings and songs? And wouldn't we achieve really good recordings and songs a lot faster if we gave each other thoughtful and frequent constructive feedback?

Peace,

Ian

Hi Ian & friends


Just about a month ago or so I had a thread fixed there "Post Your Song Here For Review" For that reason.
This was pretty cool because it let me find the persons who really wanted to get into there song a bit. I mentioned I would skim through it and pick a few out. I think i did them ALL except maybe one or two, not sure but two missed at most.

See the problem I found before that by EXPERIENCE is you pick a song. You listen to it. Perhaps two or three times. You spend an hour typing all these thoughts...
Then the person..

1- NEVER comes back to the thread!

2- Says - "Well that song was about my daddy"

3- I write for myself only! Don't really care what anyone thinks. lol

4- This song was for my kid, my dog etc....

5- etc.... etc.....

When someone states there goals like EVERYONE should do when they look for a critique it makes all the difference in the world.
Not so much for a novice but when someone is looking to INVEST in there music and or if they are pitching, or going for something, film wise, taxi wise whatever! genre wise. Say it!

Of course certain basics apply to ALL song-writing but the differences in approach
and DETAILS are HUGE!

I often said and you can ask Scott Cambell or Louis
"Guys were sending each other to much flowers and candy here" lol

Anyway lots of that is my fault. Notr the flowers but the lack of critiques.
Because of health reasons I haven't been able too keep up. It' very hard and wears you down even if you could sit up straight and felt decent

Also you can't help but get very attached to some of these wonderful people.
We become bias and JPS "just plain supportive" lol..

My best suggestion Ian is to put your material on the forum with Harriet Pat & Pete
Every week it's in danger of being discounted yet so many people don't contribute there.

Have you ever posted a song there?

Ian, I totally agree with you. I would go one step farther and say that often when people do get a non-back patting critique, some feel the need to write lengthy replies "defending" their work. A simple thanks to acknowledge the support would suffice. Accept the criticism and go on. Maybe it's true, maybe it isn't. But negating the opinion of someone who has been invited to critique a piece is really bad form and discourages honesty.

When I see people praising what I perceive to be mediocre work, it makes me wonder what they really think of what I will post. How can I believe them?

Hi Mike,

That's a super thoughtful response,

Are you talking bout the "Mentor Lyric and MP3 Critique Forum"? I've looked thru it before and read some of the critiques.... it's actually not something that seems open to much dialogue which is why I still like the mp3 forum for all it's flaws... Some folks really give good critiques. You and niteshift are great and many others have given good critiques that I've learned from. I KNOW many folks are capable of giving good critiques and just don't... probably for multiple reasons. Anyway... I like dialog. Sometimes people hear something and they don't communicate is so well on the first pass and you get it clarified thru dialog. Sometimes people (myself often included) will relisten and modify an opinion after discussion.


That's why I ususlly only try to throw out the 1 or 2 most helpful things I can say. Then I check back... if there's a reply or a question then you've opened a dialog. But FWIW, I basically completely agree with you.


Yeah, explaining your song isn't great. Song's gotta stand on their own.



I remember that thread and almost posted there.

I'm not criticizing anyone. If folks just want to say a quick praise and move on that's OK. I think some folks just post a comment so you'll listen to their tune. I'm not really against that either. It's a part of how the system works. I just wish folks would take a bit more time and think of SOMETHING to say besides 'great job'. Critiquing is TRULY a win-win proposition. You get better at listening and the posting musician gets real feedback from fresh ears.


I utterly and completely agree. Well said. And if someone just wants non-critical comments, they should say so too.

This thread is turning out as I'd hoped... it's a good open and friendly dialog. It's how critiques should go in the forum!

Thanks Mike,

Ian

I totally agree Jean... I think everyone starts (I certainly did) by getting defensive. It's human nature. And if someone gets defensive on me 2-3 times in a row, I stop commenting on their stuff. But I think everyone can learn. Maybe even by reading this thread, one or two folks will stop being defensive and start being thankful for thoughtful constructive criticism.



Yep, I agree. And I take the comments of these praise-only-ers with a big grain of salt. But I don't judge too harshly. I've seen a couple of folks here make real progress in learning to give better critiques. I just wish more would! --- It mystifies me that there's some REALLY good songwriters that won't hear a word of criticism and are pretty much in the 'praise-only' camp. If these folks especially would learn to give and receive constructive feedback, I KNOW JPF would be a stronger resource.

Thanks Jean,

Peace,

Ian

Ian,

I think your concern is very difficult to give a simple answer to, and allthough it is valid to some point, we must also remember that these foras are provided to songwriters for free (or at least for small donations).

There also are many levels here, and very few (if any) at the top level of songwriting, at least who provides critiques at the boards.

Like you say, writing songs at a high level (or what you wanna call it), takes tremenduous amounts of time, as there just are so many factors and soo much work. I think this is so demanding on the time currency that topwriters and commentators just don't have the time to take a walk out of their songwriter circles and pro-critiquer's and listen and comment in here.

Also if you are a top dawg, you can only loose credibility by critiquing others work for free (unless a suitable framework is provided, like in our Mentor Forums). Basically because beginners etc post for a variety of reasons, and some of these reasons are just vanity. In the creative business, you quickly learn to give people what they want (otherwise you won't be a pro for long), and if the folks need praise to get'em going.. they get praise.. Praise can be supportive, for songwriters at all levels. So not everything have to be critique (that is a leftover from the age of enlightenment).

Therefore I think your expectations are too high, when you consider the circumstances. These boards are for everyone, beginner/ amateur and up (well, perhaps not really for the top dawg's ). Most of us are not eloquent in providing great critiques, and find comfort in the role of the average listener.

So if we get a good constructive critique once in a while, and I think we do (sometimes you provide them, Ian.. thanks!), we should consider ourselves lucky. But that cannot be the average expectation IMO

I rely on many others to critique my work in later stages, like the guild, collaborators and pro-critiquers, but I've found the critiques here to be important for especially rewriting the lyric before moving on to demoing.

Hi Ian,

If I may critique your critique for a moment, Ian, I think you are over generalizing a little here. There are all kinds of critiques from all kinds of people with all kinds of motives here, and that is what makes this place great.

I think everyone of us has a distinct personality. Many critique in depth, many critique some in depth, while going easier on others, some dish out only praise. Maybe this is a little slice of what it's like , lol, in the real world?

I myself, depending on who I am critiquing, may dig in deep and talk about the phrasing of a particular word; or, if it is someone more "sensitive" who I am critiquing, I go softer. Some people need more encouragement, than criticism. When I critique, it's my call how and what I say to someone, and I like to think I am a pretty good judge of who needs and/or wants a real critique and who doesn't. Mostly I just try to get along. The worst thing I could do is give an in depth review to someone who doesn't really want one, and believe me, I used to do this, and it hurts (having the "reviewee" get extrememly defensive), but that is human nature.

And me, I still can feel very hurt, and get defensive. I am a human being. I dare anyone to honestly say they don't ever feel a little hurt by another's comments. If we don't come in here vulnerable, as in, with our defenses down, then we are doing something wrong!

So maybe your real question is, why doesn't everybody "grow up" and act towards their work in a detached way, so they can learn and grow from the experience? I think the answer is this...Who am I to judge the where and when of another persons own inner growth? Don't we all grow when we are ready to?

Mike

Hi Jean,

I am just curious, in these instances that you are perceiving mediocre work that others are praising--do you yourself critique said piece and let the writer know your feelings? Or, do you keep your thoughts to yourself?

Also, have you ever considered the possibility that just maybe it was your perception (of mediocre work) that needed looking at, at least on one of these occasions?

Could it simply be possible that maybe you have higher standards of excellence than others?

Isn't it sometimes possible that if twenty people praise something that you don't like, that maybe a majority of the "praisers" actually DO like the piece, that "trust" need not be an issue, but maybe your own "standards of excellence?"

I don't understand why "believing them" enters into the picture. Are you saying you think some of us critiquers lie to each other???

I'm sorry Jean, but I come away from reading that particular statement, feeling like you think your own perceptions are "better" or "truer" than the perceptions of the people praising the so-called mediocre work.

Mike

It seems there are more mp3s appearing lately and when I go in for a critiquing session, I tend to look for people I have become acquainted with or look for someone who has received few or no critiques.

Sometimes the genre is a turnoff. There are some that I don't want to be involved with. I can't stand to read posts and lyrics from one person on here because she can't spell and doesn't use a spellchecker! Sometimes I feel a bit rushed to try and get to as many as I can so I make my reviews pretty brief. Occasionally, one grabs me and I dig in for whatever reason.

On the other hand, I have received some very helpful reviews pointing out things I hadn't noticed or thought about (Mike Caro's thread in particular). I try to incorporate the suggestions and report back. I do notice that there are often many more visits to the thread and song plays than there are comments. I usually assume that the visitor did not like the song if he didn't leave a comment so I take that as a negative.

With respect to the comment about only giving praise and not constructive criticism, I think there is some of that. I don't want to come off as a curmudgeon and sometimes feel unqualified to say what I feel. I have seen other forums where the critiquers are arrogant and bash songs for reasons that are not pertinent (performance vs song for instance).

All in all, this is a helpful forum. It does help when posting a song for feedback to ask specific questions. Is this radio ready? Is it good enough for a demo? Would Joe Blow sing it? Does it sound like post-punk-jazz? Does the story line grab you?

Good thread and questions.

About 1/2 the time, I am here to listen in a non-critical way and in those cases I leave "cheer-leading" type remarks. Other times, I feel like getting into a tune and do my best to judge it from an overall perspective and also look for "problem areas". If you are going to point out issues, though, you had better be ready for the writer to not like you any more (LOL!).

As an engineer by training, I tend to look for problems, so I think that carries over into my songwriting listening/critiquing. Let's face it, 99.9% of the songs here are non-studio demos of songs that are works-in-progress. If you can't find something that can be improved, then you just aren't trying. A lot of times, those "things that can be improved" don't really hurt the demo and sometimes they do. Hopefully, I point them out when they do.

Kevin

Yes, we have had these discussions before but I think they're worth revisiting - if for no other reason than we probably are always having new people show up and these might be helpful to them.

My feelings are much the same as Mike Z's. People post here for a lot of different reasons. Some are trying to become published songwriters, some are hobbyists who want to improve but don't feel the need to write commercially, and for some, as Sub has also said in the past, this is "their gig" - meaning they are primarily just sharing. Complicating the picture is that they are at many different levels, from beginner to pro.

I imagine some of the critiques must look pretty strange to the casual observer - where the same person is somewhat hard on a pretty good song and soft on one that might need a bit of work. But for folks that are here day in and day out over a period of years, I think the whole thing probably makes sense. You eventually get a feeling of what people want in a critique and try to give it. Also, I find myself tending to critique in the context of where the poster is at. For instance, if someone is just learning to play the guitar and is primarily trying to get the point of the song across, it doesn't make sense to me to critique the arrangement. That kind of thing.

Sure, it would be nice if folks indicated exactly what they want in a critique but they mostly don't. But over a period of months, you can figure it out.

My sense is that people are generally getting what they need in the forum. No easy thing, given the diversity of goals and abilities.

Scott

I try to point out the good and bad and what can be improved by setting out advice in areas the piece can be improved. There are some who give positive feedback in a cheerleading style regradless of how good or bad the song is. As I have said before you cannot fix a thing if you do not know it is broke. Whilst negatives can be a bit soul destroying false positives can wrongly boost egos. What we need is more honest appraisals from neutrals who do not have an axe to grind who can give a balanced critique. One thing I have noticed is that far too many critiques only speak about the lyrics and very little is ever said about the quality of the demo, performance, arrangement, melody etc.

Michael,

Here at JPF and elsewhere, there are people who lie to each other. Usually with the best intentions. Sometimes they lie because they don't have the heart to burst a bubble. Sometimes they lie because it's clear that the people submitting a piece for critique are just seeking a back pat and won't hear anything they say. Sometimes they lie because everyone else says, "good job" and they are afraid to differ. Sometimes they lie because if they say what they really think, others will criticize them for their opinions.

When it comes to standards, there is a wide spectrum on these boards. Some people hold higher standards for themselves and lower the bar for the work of others. Sometimes it's the other way around. Some people are just learning and have not yet acquired "standards."

There is a wide variety of achievement levels here at this site. There is a wide variety of purpose for posting songs as well.
Everything is lumped together and there is no way of telling who really wants a thorough critique and who is just "sharing" unless they specify that in an introduction. Introductions are almost pointless as many don't bother to read them at all.

All critiques are opinions and are valid. Perception is what is requested when people ask for a critique. All I can do is offer mine. The songwriter doesn't have to agree with me or make changes because of my opinion.

Michael, you can come away with any impression you like. That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. If you think I am some sort of snob or hold my opinion higher than others,then fine. Think what you want.

By the way, if anyone is wondering, a moderator is not an expert. A mentor is. Moderators only keep an eye out on the forums they have been assigned to and facilitate a little. So when someone is a moderator in a particular forum, it doesn't mean that his or her opinion is to be valued any more or less than those who are not moderators. In case anyone is wondering.

I've found we can all get what we're looking for with a little extra effort. If you really want to hear as many negatives as possible, make that clear when you post...I guarantee that will make the reviewers feel more comfortable pointing out what they didn't like.

But good luck hoping that will always happen. Let's face it, we first join up because we like the idea of getting feedback. But how many of us felt qualified, right out of the gates, to GIVE feedback? How many of us felt comfortable telling others that something sucks?

It isn't easy for a lot of people to do. I'd just make it clear what you're looking for whenever you post, and help pave the way for others to feel brave enough to bash your baby.

Mike, "This song was for ... my dog etc...."

Most excellent.

Tom

Ian, you make a good point. I don't comment on the songs that I don't like but I suppose I also do not want to offend someone. It has been subbested that when someone wants a real, critical response, they mention this when posting.

Tom

Interesting subject!

I enjoy getting feedback as much as the next guy. I take all replies seriously. I've made changes many times because of the critiques. Heck, I've spent $5,000 upgrading because of critiques. Yeah, I'm only human; I enjoy the praise as well.

One of the main reasons I post tracks here is that one never knows what film producer may be lurking about. It's just one of many ways for promoting my product.

But the bottom-line; music is meant to be heard. I remember from a music appreciation class the three music essentials; composers to create, musicians/singers for production, and the listener. Without the listener, music would be pointless.

Best, John

Yes, Jean, I know, I was playing "innocent" so as to hear your thoughts on the subject. I just know that if I was to worry, like you, about the "true intentions" of everyone who posts a comment, then I too might not never post a song or lyric.



Agreed.



I completely disagree here. There is a way of telling. If you actually hang out in a forum long enough, you can know exactly who wants a thorough critique and who doesn't! We all do have personalities, and needs, as writers, and it just takes a tiny, tiny bit of sensitivity towards any given writer, and time spent with them, to know, generally, what they want and need in a critique.

Jean, the perfect analogy is like living in your neighborhood. Do you know your neighbors? How well? Was it immediate? Just by being somewhere, you begin to acquire a feel for the people in your surroundings. Then it's simply up to you whether you want to apply the same critiquing standards to all, or to each as individuals with individual needs. I choose the later. Do I ever miss the mark? Of course, all the time. It is not an exact science.



I agree with what you say here, but if you say "when I see people praising what I perceive as mediocre work," and then see your let this perception lead you to be tentative towards posting your own work (do you?), it makes me wonder if this "questioning of others' motives" is such a healthy activity to engage in, in any serious way. I mean, can we really know someone else's motives for praising, dissing, etc.? Why not just believe in someone's sincerity, until they go out of there way time and again to show you that are simply looking for either a "sweetheart deal" or to make your life a living hell? One could then take that freed up mental space and apply it towards writing and such.



Jean, I was responding to, and judging one particular statement, namely, "When I see people praising what I perceive to be mediocre work, it makes me wonder what they really think of what I will post. How can I believe them?" I don't know you well enough to think one way or another about you. Those thoughts are reserved for my closest friends.

Mike

Hi Ian

Good post and responses here.

I think for the most part people here do get what they need over time... Certainly I'm a good example. In the beginning I lurked and read. Then I joined and posted a few critiques that were objective - but just MY opinion... I quickly saw responses like 'who is this jm?' so i had to post a lyric...... very much a novice --- got some suggestions that I took and some that I left --- still haven't finished that song.... lol..... but I kept reading and responding, writing.... I wasn't even recording at that time....... SLOWLY --I've learned a few things... But I Have to say --- and I know that you have listened and commented on my stuff --- it HAS gotten better. The more time I spend reading the good and the bad - imho- is what makes me grow and strive to reach the bar --- the bar rises all the time -- as does the work of people who spend time here....... IT's working -- is all I can say

the more time that you can give -the more that you get back

I wish that I had more time to give it --- but my own work and there's always more and more now - takes precedence.....

I Prefer to give positive feedback -- and in general will continue to do so --- interjecting as time permits - a suggestion as take or leave...... if I have more time I do more.....

Best regards and Thanks !

jm

Hmmmm......

Well, to be honest, I think the mp3 forum works well. But it only works well if you clearly sate what you're after. I used to put nearly finished work up there, but now put it up much earlier, to gauge how it might be percieved, or to get wrinkles ironed out, before they become major hassles which can't be fixed.

A critique is not a criticism. It's a valuable tool to pick up errors, and faults which are not always evident to the writer. I can't say how any small things have been picked up by a fresh set of ears, which I've then gone back over and smoothed out.

I really don't see any point in saying " I like it " unless it's qualified with more in depth coment. Sometimes, but only rarely, does a song just "work". There's always room for improvement.

cheers, niteshift

Myself, I don't worry overmuch about critiques of my material in the MP3 Forum. I want as much input as I can get in the *Lyric* forum(s). True, I'll have rendered as perfect as I think I can get it before I post lyrics there--but just because I've done everything I can does *not* mean I've made it as good as it *can* be.

But by the time I've put the music to it, and recorded it, it's pretty much in final form, and unless somebody sees (hears?) something glaring, I'm not really expecting a lot of input. I'm just letting those who said they wanted to hear it that it's available to hear.

Now, if I'm musicating someone else's lyrics, I definitely am after input on the MP3 Forum. I want to know how good a match it was (is), and whether I got across what the lyricist was trying to express (or what y'all thought the lyricist was trying to express), and whether I maybe added something to it.

All of which is to say... it depends.

joe

I thought you forgot all about that post you started...you aren't required so I haven't mentioned it but you are right...there is a couple waiting for a response

Important point made by Niteshift. Asking for a critique when a lot of money has been spent on a demo and it is probably too expensive or late to change things is a bit pointless. Better to post at an early stage or at several crucial stages in the songs development so ALL feedback can be considered and positive changes can be made to improve the song. This will make the final product better.
I have seen many people post songs and when they receive great suggestions about improvements reply with the standard phrase TOO LATE IT HAS GONE TO DEMO AND CHANGES WOULD BE TOO EXPENSIVE AT THIS STAGE.
It would be prudent to post early so the song can be properly developed.

Wow - I'm amazed at all the feedback... I'll do what I can to answer everyone who's addressed me specifically...



Hi Magne - I agree that it's not simple and I'm not really criticizing those that post only praises. I'm mostly lamenting and encouraging I think. When I post, for me, it's all about getting better. Re $$, I think you can look at Mike Caro as a great example... he has a studio business that actually benefits by his great and in depth critiques here. Personally, I do this as a hobby and am not interested much in the money side of things. Besides, if we help each other fix our recordings don't we improve the chances of everyone making some money down the road. Besides, the people that charge for critiquing in this world aren't the ones frequenting the mp3 forum much.



I'm not sure what you mean. Mike C. is maybe the top dawg here and he's probably the best critiquer too. I don't think he loses any credibility. Personally, I'm way from the top dawg, but I strongly believe I hear stuff way better because of the critiquing I've done here and at two other forums.

I agree that the folks in the lyric forums are generally a bit better than than in the mp3 forums at critiquing.

Peace,

Ian

Thats a super thoughtful response Michael and I don't disagree with it.

I think probably most of the comments in the mp3 forum are praise only and often not useful. I hope I'm not judging... I would personally be completely happy if folks took Mike C's admonition to heart and stated what kind of feedback they're looking for. I have a feeling that if people actually stated that they didn't want any constructively critical feedback that not many folks would listen to their tunes.

Peace,

Ian

I think we're about 90% of the same mind Colin. I think this is great and pretty much how things work best. Not every piece is for everyone.



I'm not sure about no comment=neg. reaction. EVERY thread has a lot more views than comments.



If folks did this more often, I doubt I'd have started this thread. I completely agree.

Peace,

Ian

I think you've hit the nail on the head here Kevin... I think that some folks may not 'like me anymore' simply because I've critiqued their stuff. I never mean anything personally and I completely expect others to critique my stuff. To me, this is what it's about.... Getting better. It's a big part of why I posted this thread.



I completely agree on this. I've certainly made some bad critiques over the years... but that's part of the learning process. Learning to be a better critiquer is part of the continuum too! And it teaches me too... lots of things I used to think were important, I no longer do... and I think this is due to listening with open ears to lots of different stuff!

Thanks,

Peace,

Ian

I don't disagree Scott. I too give vastly different critiques depending on the person... but I tend to give critiques about 90% of the time. My big gripe is just that SOOOO many comments don't include ANY critical element... they're praises only. Like I've said a lot of times, I'm not necessarily against praise only comments. And I think it would be VERY instructive if people would state upfront that they don't want constructively critical comments. And I don't think many would be willing to make this statement... So it's a very interesting conundrum!

There isn't an right and wrong answer here. This is a good discussion.

Peace,

Ian

You're a good critiquer Jim and my comments certainly weren't directed at you!. Personally, I'd much rather have someone critique the lyrics than nothing at all. There's lots of lyricists that listen on the mp3 forum who don't have much musical knowledge.

Good comments...

Thanks,

Ian

Hi Mark,

This is a GREAT response. I think you've hit a lot of emotional issues on the head...


I pretty much agree. But I don't think anyone wants just negatives. Personally, I always try to throw out the positives and the constructive elements.


And I think if folks only want praises, they might post that too!


That's true. I'm not completely against praise only comments. Especially from newbies. I too want everyone to join in and for JPF to grow!


Personally, when I post, I often do. I almost always say what kink of critiquing I'm looking for. I agree w/ Mike C. that stating what kind of feedback you want is the important. And when people do that, I honor it.


You've used some strong terms Mark. I'm wondering if I've offended you in the past by some of my comments? I hope not. But if I have I truly apologize. My very true goal is just to make better music. If you ever think I'm being too harsh PLEASE let me know, either in the thread or by PM.

Peace,

Ian

The more I answer these comments them more I'm convinced that the best solution is for folks to state what kind of critique they're looking for at the top of their threads. The bottom line is that the mp3 forum does truly work best when folks do this!

Thanks Goeff,

Peace,

Ian

I don't disagree... I usually don't comment much on production aspects of pro demos. If there's a problem with the basic song, I sometimes still point it out... It might save the songwriter some grief if they end up agreeing.

Peace,

Ian

Hi Joice,

You're one of the folks that I think has really grown in your critiques. Wouldn't you agree that when you listen with a critical ear it makes you a better musician in general?

Peace,

Ian

Hi Joe,

It sounds like you post 2 different types of mp3s?... solo works and collaborations... and that you find different types of comments more helpful for the different types?

Do you state in your thread what kind of feedback you're looking for? The more I answer these comments, the more I think that's the basic answer!

Thanks,

Peace,

Ian,

Great thread! I have been dealing with the same issues. And over the past months, I've learned a few things.

Whether I ask for real criticism in my posts or not, I get a lot of friendly responses, some nutty suggestions, and a few truly helpful critiques. I appreciate them all, but I take note of the few who really care enough to be truthful. They are the ones whose responses always get my attention. Some have posted here in response to you.

Also, the responsibility is entirely on me, if I want to hear the truth. So I pursue those honest few until I get something real. If I have to go back to the drawing board with a song, so be it.

Finally, no one wants to be the bad guy. So, to JPFers whose opinions I value, I try to make it clear that I expect unvarnished truth, not a pat on the back. Music is my favorite form of expression, but it's also a craft. I'm learning from some of these guys. When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.

Jonathan

Ian,

I think the best way to get people to change is to lead by example.

Apply this "Golden Rule" kinda thing to JPF, and you get:

"Critique unto others as you would have them critique unto you."

Mike

Ian, I don't think I do specify. Maybe I should. I mostly just haven't worried at my end whether anybody actually says anything about a finished song of mine (i.e., *.mp3). Last song of mine I did (lyrics and music), I got rather a large number of comments on the lyrics, which I appreciated, and next to none on the *.mp3, and didn't really worry because the song was basically finished by that point.

When I'm adding music to someone else's lyrics, I *do* care, because the music is the part I'm contributing, and I want to make sure it fits right. I haven't worried much, though--people have been pretty good about comments.

Joe

Dear Ian..

My thoughts are probably repetitive...I only glanced at the comments this time ....but... I think sometimes..
because of...

1)
Time Element (sometimes we can't be here as much as we'd like)

2)
the writing level and acceptance level of the writer
to a strong critique ...(I think this is a super important one)

3)
Critiquer's confidence level (Some days I'm a lot more confident than other days...and definitely certain areas I'm more confident than other areas)

I think the 3 of those affect my comments some times, and maybe
they affect others....when they're critiquing...

I also think there's been times...when someone will come in like
a Bulldozer...maybe not knowing that someone's new...and knock them off their feet with comments like.... you should stick to baking cookies.... or ....no one would buy a cd if you sang on it....or....what's wrong with you people...why isn't anyone
telling this person that he can't write? ...

To me, those aren't critiques....and ...they aren't constructive. In everything that's posted...I think there's
at least ONE good thing that could be said...even if it's...
Hey...It's great to see you posting your lyric!...
and then proceed ...with the nits.

Also, what we offer up is our opinion. Some things are definites...but there are a lot of comments made based on
personal likes and dislikes...too!...

Anyways, I personally like strong critiques given to me....
I don't always do what's suggested but I always read and think about it......and sometimes, it takes me months/years to see that a particular constructive comment was right on target....

I think as critiquer's we have a responsibility too...
maybe to err on the side of...(not sure how to word this)..
giving at least SOME encouragement...

I'm grateful for strong critiques...and I was very grateful
for the encouragement I was given when I started writing here.
Very best to y'all....
Kaley

I think most of the arguments and sentiments are starting to repeat... I've made a statement in the opening thread that I'm not going to keep responding to everyone. I think the discussion here has been great!



I completely agree. My format for giving critiques is always to find the good and the 'needs improvement'. In the same way that I challenge some 'praise only' folks to listen more critically, some folks, maybe myself included, need to work harder to find the positive elements.



Indeed!

Peace,

Ian

By opening and leading this discussion here, Ian, you have proven to be a great example on how to run a thread, whether it's a discussion on an important issue, or a thread on your own songs.

I will certainly do my best to find the 'sour spots' in your songs from now on

absolutely ~ Ian

it Does though, take a certain amount of time to gain the confidence that we have something to offer --- and More Time to really listen

Time is a Big factor for Lots of people, I think......

jm

We've covered a lot of good ground in this thread. One comment I want to look at.


It's all personal when we critique songs -- especially to the songwriter. That doesn't mean we can't be honest and businesslike, but we have to realize that if we say anything less than positive, there will be some potentially hurt feelings. It is the nature of the beast.

Kevin