JPF Home Page Forums Musician Gear and Techniques Guitars and Guitarist Forum Tuning Devices vs. Ear

Hi all,

I've got this rant in me, because it's very frustrating when you listen to an out of tune guitar and someone tells you, "well, I used a machine, before AND afterwords, so the guitar MUST be in tune during the song...

WRONG...feel free to disagree with me, but there are two major reasons why:

1) equal temperment is not as ear-friendly as just intonation, in most cases. Equal temperment was devised as a way to make navigating through all the keys sound good, or the least bit bad. Whereas just intonation is more worried about low ratios, total consonance, and is usually key or mode specific, usually a better choice for guitarists playing in one key with no modulations to the other side of the map.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament

2)string action + depressing strings=out of tune

In most cheaper guitars and even many expensive, the simple act of "playing a chord" can throw the intonation off just enough for that chord to "just not sound right". There are several factors that can cause this, but mainly it's the action of the guitar plus the technique of the player, divided by the overall quality of the guitar in question. I played a nice Martin 12 string for years, with medium gauge, thinking, "when I take this in the studio, I'll change to light gauge, and knock 'em dead" well...what happened was that everything sounded out of tune in the studio because my "technique" had not had enough time to adjust and...er..."lighten up" I was depressing strings as if they were still medium gauge, and there was nothing I could do about it, until I could reteach myself to "back off" a little...

So my best advice is, if you need a tuner to tune a guitar, use it to check fretted strings too. Better yet, tune a guitar by playing through the chords and/or notes that are to be used in the particular song you're about to play, and make sure they all sound good, and if you have no ear for this, grab a friend who does.

That's all,
Mike

I am no guitarist but this sounds perfectly logical. I see guitarists using tuners and also tuning strings to each other using ears. I hate it when I hear out of tune guitars. I see guys play all night with out of tune guitars....drives me mad...no excuse with the modern tuning gizmos and/or an ear.... very amateur.

I do use one of those electronic gizmos, because I am mostly tone-deaf. I can tune the guitar to itself, using simple laws of physiucs, but I have to have someone give me somewhere to start with if the guitar's going to be in tune with everybody else.

And I don't necessarily stop there. I'll usually run through the theme of "Alice's Restaurant" several times (these days, it's about the only thing I fingerpick) and see if that sounds all right. The way I play "Alice," I end up playing every string on the guitar, usually two at a time, so if something's really off, it'll show up.

Joe

I think when I first started playing string instruments, the only tuners were the tube-based strobe tuners. Incredibly accurate- incredibly expensive. I used them for setting frets on my sazes.

Note to reader - the Turkish sazes have adjustable frets so you can position them for your particular pitch table(s).

If you couldn't afford those strobetuners, you usually had to tune by ear, sometimes aided with a tuning fork. A lot of times, if I was accompanying an instrument that culdn't be tuned easily (piano, harmonica) I would tune to that. Tuning by ear - I think that's a skill that's fading away into oblivion. As a result, folks just can't hear when things are off, since they now rely on their gadgets. I prefer using the electronic tuners, since it's quicker, but I have tested assorted tuners side by side, and they are not all that accurate from one manufacturer to another. One companies A440 was closer to another's A441, etc.

And yes, I still have a tube-based Conn Strobotuner.

>In most cheaper guitars and even many expensive, the simple act of "playing a chord" can throw the intonation off just enough for that chord to "just not sound right".<

This problem is frequently due to the nut slots being cut too high (nearly all new guitars have nut slots that need filing deeper). When the slot is too high, the depression of the string is much the same as bending it sideways - it makes the string sharp. The best way to check for a high nut slot is to depress a string at the third fret and then look for clearance between the string and the first fret. The clearance should be barely detectable. If there is more than that, file the nut slot deeper (or have a tech do it).

There's no such thing as a guitar in tune unless it doesn't have frets.

Try this: tune a guitar with the tuner, open strings only. Now listen to the harmonic on the fifth fret of the sixth string, it's an "E" ok now listen to the "D" harmonic you get on the sixth fret of the sixth string and compare it to simply fretting the third fret of the second string's "D" wow, it's way off. For more fun, tune the third fret of the second string to the harmonic on the sixth fret of the sixth string. Then play the "four finger" E7 ( 6open 5-2nd fret 4-second fret 3-first fret 2-third fret and 1-open). To me, that's the most "in tune" E7 in the world! But then play a D chord, but not too close to your refrigerator, it will curdle the milk.

Nope, can't tune a guitar, but you can tune a casserole.

Because guitars have imperfect intonation which, as Mike points out, is inherent in its design, I take a multi-layered approach to tuning. I cannot depend entirely on a tuner, nor on my ear. On a very good day, though, my ear is better than the tuner. If the tuner is available, I use it first, then I check multiple ways around the neck to confirm the soundness of the tuning, including fretting to open strings (not just on the fifth and fourth frets), but other key points as well, and using harmonics. I play acoustic most frequently, and they are very temperamental to the weather, drafts, unevenly heated rooms, direct sunlight, etc. My experience, is that if I use the tuner alone and depend on its accuracy, I will probably not be satisfied with the tuning so I have to use my ears, as well. Some days my ears just don't cut it, and I cannot get it right no matter what I do, but that is not too often thankfully.

Other instruments that do not have digitally applied tones (caused by frets) can be much more easily tuned with tuners accurately. It is a little easier to compensate for tuning issues if you are soloing, or single string playing, because you can bend a little to overcome flatness. I have even at times started a fret lower and bent up to compensate for a slightly sharp situation.

I tune pianos by ear, which is getting nuts now with having Tinnitus. (Afterwards that is).

Anyway, as Michael points out "equal temperament", which is how a piano can sound good and in tune while playing the low end with the high end, guitars are tuned with having no beats in their fourths and thirds. That alone will make for headaches trying to get the guitar to sound in tune, given that the factor of strings and playing tension is taken care of. Pianos are tuned with slightly flattened fourths and fifths, (after the first fourth has been tuned slightly sharp). It's a compromise to get each half step exactly, (or close to it anyway), the same distance apart, in beats per second distance that is.

If a fourth, or third on the guitar are beatless, "Unlike" a good tuned piano, as in the goal of ear or machine tuning for guitars), then you're going to get a non equal temperament tuning for that guitar.

Guitar thirds are not what they should be, for the fourths are beatless. That's why no matter what is done to the guitar, some odd sounds will occur when playing some chords, depending on the position played.

I am having a brain freeze trying to imagine how a guitar could be "made" with equal temperament. MAYBE with having the fifth fret (The A Note) be made to be slightly sharp of pure, of the same low E string? Then what? Have the A string have it's fifth fret, (the D note), slightly flat of pure?. Then what???? NO!!!

I bet if a designer of guitars started with the E temperament, and would follow as if on the notes of a piano E to A, (same as above, then make the B, (ANY B)....the closest B slightly beating on the flat side of pure,,,then that would.,,,,,,
No! No No!

Holy Crap! Guitars suck! Just play yer out of tune guitars and sing better!

And they say tuning pianos is hard?
30 minutes, 220 strings tuned for concert ready use. Equal Temperament! Play any chord, (Mix and match em!), anyhow, anywhere on the keybooard,and you got great sound! Give me a piano any day over a six string.

Hi John,

Now I'm not so sure--I guess I assumed that "machine tuners" use equal temperament, and that's why I said in most situations. guitarists should have alternate methods at their disposal, since much guitar music is set in one key/mode.

Guitarists playing songs with little modulation should go towards just intonation by playing through the chords in a song and making sure they sound good. That's why that's what you see solo (mostly folk) performers doing this: the fifth fret on low E played, then immediately an open A...that method, THEN play through the chords and scales...this is best for most folk music.

If I was to play Bach or 12 tone music, I could understand using a machine-tuner, even songs containing modulations from, say, C Major to Eb Major...I'd still run through everything in a few seconds, just to make sure...

--Mike

You're supposed to tune them? Wow, that explains alot

There are some luthiers who build compensations into both the bridge and the nut to try and bring a guitar closer to in tune. They can be pretty efficient with it if they know what they are doing, but it is never perfect.

I am aware of the physics, and I have run into this problem with a 7 string archtop that I made like franenstein from peices of other broken intruments... (see the avatar) I love that guitar and have painstkingly tuned, reset, and EVEN recarved, bridges, the nut, etc. etc. I KNOW the neck is set as close to perfect as can be acheived in the real world (at least by me) the guitar is VERY sensetive..(ONE of the things I LOVE about it!) (oddly nough I like electrics to be set up exactly opposite HUGE gauge strings and rock solid set up where you have to have gorilla hands to bend notes!!!) With the archtop, I have to tune it open, and then go back and tune the harmonics, and it is a compromise between the tunings , often it's a particular piece I will be playing, that determines which direction I err on.. flat or sharp in relation to the note being tuned to. I have come to learn te guitars "personality" but IF I become TOO aggressive and press my fingers TOO hard when chording I always notice those strings pulling sharp. so TO ME it's more about tuning my fingers and playing style... the guitar can only be SET at the start of a song and then you have to play it in a way that the note are in tune.. VIBRATO ANYONE!!!???

( I guess now they have instruments that roboticly self-tune even switching to alternate tunings DURING a song!?!?)

Hi Kenneth,

I have a killer method for great guitar vibrato:

Strum chord, or play a note and let it ring, then SHAKE YOUR HEAD VIOLENTLY IN TINY LEFT-RIGHT, LEFT-RIGHT MOTIONS for the duration of your chord or note...

Works for me every time...

--Mike

that's a great method.. I try to hold my head perfectly stil and concentrate as hard as I can on shakig the REST of the world left to right !!! either way, I guess YOUR way might be easier!!!!

My Seagull was in tune when I bought it 7 years ago. When should I re-tune it?

you can't tune a seagull , but you can tuna fish!

maybe you can't tune a seagull, but with a lot of time, you can tune a flamingo guitar:

I love the way the strings actually CROSS OVER eachother!!! I would want to play the flamingo neck (flamenco style) MOST OF ALL!!!

That flamingo guitar (&c.) must be a hard thing to hold when performing.

Joe

"No it's not..."



I have fun with this sometimes playing with multiple tracks...tune the perfect G and play those chords that way...then tune the perfect E and play those chords that way...etcetera...then patch them all together in separate tracks.

Tune it? I would have thought catching it would be the biggest problem.

I think I used to jam with this dude... he is a real show off !!!!

I think he is related to some of these country cousin kissin folk.

O.K. NOW I AM OFFENDED ... I SIR, AM FROM THE COUNTRY!!!!

My attempt at humor!

to get BACK to the topic, You know I have argued about the physics involved in guitar tuning, and relative tuning , and intonation with other musicians, who just COULDN't get it.. I would say "that note is pulled sharp" and they would say I just tuned it.. here I'll show you.. and then " so you think your ear is more accurate than MY TUNER" of course by this point I was over it, and if they couldn't hear the dissonance, I wasn't gonna try to argue with them, but it's funy how people that play a stringed instrument cannot even know the physics of how their instrument is making the vibrations, or even HOW ANY musicain can not LISTEN to the sound of one note as compared to another and HEAR if it is resonant, or not. SHOULDN'T that be taught BEFORE the cool moves and how to play with your guitar slung down at your kees?? or before purchasing the newest latest cool equipment???

A while ago I posted an article about the new Gibson SG self tuning guitar.
http://www.gibson.com/robotguitar/
How does this baby fit in with using "ears"?

I am working on having my ears roboticly tuned...

The Gibson robotic guitar is an expensive gimmick. I honestly cannot imagine even wanting one, but I am sure plenty of suckers will buy it.

it's probably good (and bad ) for students that are learning to play.. so many times they don't have the patience or discipline to tune often enough or properly... overall it is a bad thing (to encourage laziness), but I can see it making lazy people ENJOY playing more.. I will reserve my final verdict on good or bad for the results, but I agree I DON'T think MOST musicians will think it is worth the additional cost.. personally I think the LESS attachments and doo dads you ADD to the wooden structure of a guitar the better.. it just alters the ability of the wood to vibrate and make it's proper sound... I'm sure they have taken this in consideration in the design of the product, but I just object to the principal...

Jack you are correct. The Robot Guitar is an overly expensive piece of kit with gizmos that most serious guitarists would not even consider using.
Now if they could produce a SG that PLAYS itself...well I would consider investing in one of them.

my relatives came from Scotland, one day I would like to meet some of my kin if they are still there in Scotland, and I'm not shy or embarrassed about wearing a kilt

You are welcome anytime I would give you the guided tour. Funny thing in Edinburgh most people who wear kilts are getting married or American tourists.

thanks what I meant to say was I could be as comfortable in my jeans as well as a kilt, would love to compete in the highland games for seniors too

Hi

Good thread Mike...

Tuning the guitar? That is why I switched to Bass

To me the first most important thing about the tuner is it gets you in 440 or at least closer than your ear will. Certainly most anyway! I like to trust the tuner first then do exactly what Mike said zip through all the chords in the song to make sure they all sound okay to me. It's amazing how you can PERFECTLY in tune then play a Bminor chord and sound out!

Being in 440 sets up everything else that follows. The better the strings you use the better they are applied to the guitar makes a HUGE difference. Too much slack not enough slack all that jazz.

I don't know much about the technical reasons that cause the tuning trouble but I sure know the common ones that you can see, hear,avoid & correct lol...

A huge impact on your tuning is the temperature. Don't you HATE it when your home and your smiling inside because your guitar has been pretty much in tune every night for the last 4 months... then you put in the case go to the gig and it is a NIGHTMARE all night long??

At least till the last set... It's one of the reasons the first sets never sounded the best of the night. LEt that guitar sit in that room as LONG as you can before you gotta play it. Even from the control room to the live room....
I have to do a track tomorrow in the live room, I put the guitar in there tonight!

Here's another - Your recording... you got your guitar and strap on and your sitting you play, then after a-while you stand up. Your like wow man what happened?
That strain you just put on the neck with the strap by standing is what happened
Check your tuning when you change positions like that or DONT move!! lol...

Here's one that sneaks up and bites you on the butt.. so many of us use cappos
And of course what does the cappo do? 1- Changes key for you. 2- Puts your guitar out of tune

Decide if your gonna tune up to 440 put the cappo on and leave it.. OR put the cappo on and retune. The cappo will make the guitar just a touch sharp ands that's okay just be aware of it when your going next to the keyboard that is locked in 440.

Sometimes I retune to 440 after the cappo is applied sometimes I don't. I actually like it when things are just a tiny bit off from each sometimes. It adds character! Like the old days lots of character in music.

All The Best
Sub

In an assisted living unit prmiarily for the elderly where I work, I noticed someone that was there to tune that piano, and an old one that can easiy fall out of tune.
He suggested not to move it too much.

I started when I began playing electric guitar attempting alternative and psychedelic rock, which has much diadic and open strings, and I can not even name some of what I attempted. I also liked making my own variations of it up. And have transposed what is more electric guitar oriented scales to synth and acoustic guitar too.
A device would straight jacket my creative synapses with something like that that is less classical.
But there is definitely a use for a device tuning instruments or even getting someone that is qualified in certain areas with tuning.

I use a Boss chromatic stage tuner. It has an output that cuts the signal to the amp so you can tune silently. If you are jamming with other guitarists who insist on constantly noodling, an in-line tuner is a valuable tool.

I try to always retune after applying a capo. Good info in this thread.

I am very careful about capo placement. Most people attach it midway between frets which is guaranteed to change the pitch, and if you get close to a fret it stretches the strings even more. I place the front edge of the capo directly on the back edge of the fret and test and adjust until I have the spot where the strings ring clearly. This is the point where the string is least stretched and, therefore, closer to its initial tuning before applying the capo. It is best to apply it and re-tune, but in a performance situation you seldom of time for that. This technique produces the best results I have found.

Ok good I'm glad to see that I'm not crazy I'm new to playing and always thought it odd that after I tuned with a friends tuner I'd quickly play the cords and it seedem off and I'd have to trace down the errent string.(like I said new and teaching my self) If I'm playing with another insturment I deffenitaly ear tune to them but sometimes (ushaly based off the air pressure) I can't tell what way the note is off I know it is but I have to fiddle with for a wile to figure out if it is too sharp or flat. Oh on a related note (no pun intended) I can sit down and ear tune an insturment but I am tone def to my own vioce(the amount lower that I hear my own voice is 1 not a standerd abount and 2 changes as the pitch changes) however If someone else can tell me when I matched with the first note then I'll be dang close on the rest of the song(because I can hear the amount of change from the first note).

I'm just going to get one of those guitars that tune themselves that they have out now.

Did anyone mention that a guitar with a warped neck will never be in tune? Sometimes it will be fine when you play chords in first position near the head, but slide down a bit and it's totally off.

Did anyone ever mention that a musician with a warped ear will never be in tune either.

but a warped musician will have a good ear for interesting music.

That's why I need a freakin' TUNER!

For novice tuners, a major secret about tuning your A string to 440 Hz with a tuner is...you are in tune to most recordings. That means you can play along with your CD's and such. I remember when that tidbit of info was a little epiphony and all I had to tune with was a tuning fork in A.

Me with the Great Cushing. If I could hear the note, I wouldn't need the electronic gizmo. (And if everybody else was confident about what they're hearing with their musical ears, they wouldn't be borrowing the gizmo from me all the time.)

Joe

Yes, Tom a warped musician's guitar could be completely in tune whether or not the warped musician was in tune with the rest of the world.

Bob, don't FRET about it.