JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Mentor Questions Forum Is there a market for folk music anymore

it is the music I love but even the greats like Lightfoot and many others don't seem to be played much anymore and are left to the few gatherings in the summer and some scare clubs.
Is there a market for a folk song writer?

Thanks so much
Dan

It depends what you mean by "market".....

Make a fortune? Make a living? Make a few bucks?

There are certainly people who like and will spend money (see shows and buy tunes) on that kind of music. And there are plenty of venues around -- coffeehouses and folk festivals and street festivals -- where folk music is the thing.

But remember, for folk music, all you need is a guitar and that's the first instrument most people learn (them's that aren't learning the piano). Anyone can play their guitar right into garageband and then layer on a vocal and put it on their MySpace and burn CD-Rs to sell or even give out when they play at the local coffeehouse. No, not all of them are good, but there's so damn much music out there it's impossible to hear it all.

So yes, there's a market, but it's harder and harder these days for a performer to find his/her audience --- and for the audience to wade through all the choices to find the acts and voices that really speak to them.

Look at the Four Bitchin' Babes -- a quartet of female folkd singers with a rotating membership. Every few years one of the Babes "retires" from the group and a new "Babe" is added. They play their own songs, each others' songs, songs by prior Babes like Christine Lavin. They publish a CD each year along with their tour. The Babe tour supplements and cross-publicizes their own solo work. They market to a female audience and their themes are gynocentric (the opening number this year was about how their audience was full of women "and seven men")

I got invited to see them in Phoenixville this year at a pretty big theatre (an old movie theatre with both orchestra and balcony seating). And it was totally sold out.

Yeah, there's an audience out there, and a market. But like anyone you have to find a way to stand out, and find the people who will "get" your particular voice.

Hey Dan,

Folk music is as big today as ever. Possibly even bigger in terms of fans. It's just not on mainstream radio anymore, but you'll find it on the Americana stations.

Check out the Folk Alliance: www.folk.org you'll find a thriving organization dedicated to the preservation and promotion of folk music. If you do a search for house concerts sites such as www.house-concerts.org will pop up. A lot of folk that used to be at coffeehouses and bars are now at house concerts. Chicago's Old Town School of Folk Music, www.oldtownschool.org is going strong and bigger than ever. And, a search of folk music radio will bring up a host of both online and broadcast radio shows dedicated to folk and acoustic music.

So, yes, there's a market for folk music, and it's a fairly big market, you just have to seek it.

All the Best,
Mike

Thank you Mike

I think Folk Music will make a comeback

and get back on mainstream radio.......because Folk music is reality based-and people can relate to it........with so many people really having major upheavals in their lives due to very tough economic times-they will want lyrics and themes that are deeper and more meaningful than whats now considered Top 40......

my opinion anyway-we shall see

Tom

Me with Tom, I think. folk music has never died--it has just been periodically ignored. In these troubled times, I would expect it to become more popular again, *not* because of the subject matter (which has never really changed), but because people will be hearing more of it. Folks are going to be getting their entertainment closer to home, and that's mostly going to be entertainment the Industry can't deliver--and a lot of it is going to be local folksingers.

Joe

True that! About a year ago I went to hear a Greek band at the Southern Ohio Museum and Cultural Center in Portsmouth, Ohio. They had a dinner prior to the music which I didn't want to attend so I walked in about the time the music was to start. There were, I estimated, a hundred people there. I went to the wine table and bought a glass to enjoy while they finished up. The director came and stood next to me so I asked, "Is this your usual turnout for an event?"

"No!" she confided. "I don't know what's going on." She went on to tell of an art event they'd held at a nearby convention space, specifically for women. Over 200 showed up! She said the convention center asked her the same question, to which she gave the same reply.

Speculating, I think, when you consider spending $30 or $50 just for gasoline to get to an event, you start to think of alternatives, and desire more local entertainment, and, as Joe says, that's likely to expose folk songs, if not folk acts, and possibly gain them the notoriety to come to the attention of the big marketers.

I think it was the mix of folk and blues and rock and pop and soul and jazz that radio used to play that made my musical experience from the 1950's and 1960's hook me into music.

I have two folk songs among the eclectic mix on my website:
We Could Use A Little Rain
and
Fancy (And Maybe Nevermore)

You can use the control buttons on the Ovation guitar on the left to step through the titles to just hear those two, if you like. The others play automatically at random.

Hi Dan,

Mike is right, Folk is there, you just have to look for it a little.

Maybe gone are the days when "Kingston Trio" types can have hits, but who knows?

Folk/pop artists will usual sell more records, and genre lines truly blur with singer-songwriter types like Janis Ian, John Gorka, David Wilcox, etc...

Phil Ochs is an interesting folk artist. He possessed an amazingly beautiful voice, was second to Dylan in popularity in the early 60s folk scene, and he believed in the purists folk music "ethos"...By '68 '69 He couldn't sell records, it was the wrong musical climate. His perceived need to "survive" had him lose his core values, and he began to shift with the tides, become a "country singer" , then an "Elvis imitator", and in '76 he hung himself. If he could have held on a few more years, and been "himself", I imagine he might have weathered the storm.

Folk artists who wish to remain "purists" probably won't reach millions, but "thousands" is totally withing the realm of possibility. Still, these purist types can end up touring up to 300 days a year, even with strong "Americana" radio support, to support their "recordings", so, you really have to be "into it" I suppose, but that's a good thing, right?

Best wishes,

Mike

Listen to "the Foot:"

He speaks volumes of truth. Folk Music will always be around and will resurge in popularity as each decade "discovers" it. To my mind, the same can be said for "Mountain Music" or Bluegrass as many call it. It never goes away... just gets rediscovered and carried along for awhile.

Dave

http://www.ShowCaseYourMusic.com/DaveRice

Curiously enough, Justice music shcool program (sixth grade) is using Blowing in the Wind and If I Had a Hammer for their performance this Spring.

Tom

Dan, I think your writing, singing and playing are beautiful. I think there are still people out there that enjoy folk, but the radios dont play it as much. If that is what makes you moved, and the only genre that works for you, do it. it is an artist thing. you have to do what makes you happy. good luck- Kimberly

Hey guys,

One of the things to be aware of is that many of the designations of types of music have changed over time. As the folkie era faded away and any thoughts of that now bring to mind pot smoking hippies, tie die and patuli and insence,the designation changed more to "roots or alternative" music. A lot of what was once considered "Folk" was absorbed into that genre.
And there are a LOT of options for those kinds of music and songs. Kerreville folk festivals, conferences, and hundreds of arts and crafts festivals all over the world specialize in that kind of music. There are some radio stations that still play it, mostly internet and satillite, radio, but mainstream radio doesn't have the audience numbers that support that kind of programming. Like it or not, youth always drives radio formats. Always have and always will.
I would contend that there are elements of folk still in country music, Jamie Johnson and some others come to mind right off the bat, and there are elements all around. But for the most part, styles of music adapt and change and what might have worked in "our day" simply has changed names.
After all, we no longer have "country and Western" any more either. hmm. we used to have both kinds of music.

Country AND Western.

MAB

I am surprised at the question. That's because I think folk music is bigger now than it has been for many a year. As to whether there is more of a market for folk song writers (assuming you don’t perform) that is another issue altogether but I would imagine the opportunities as much the same as other genres.

Nigel,

I would say the folk music genre is probably one of the biggest genres. But that is mainly from folk artists. And artists don't buy as much product since they are always trying to sell their own, more than looking for something to buy. Again,
folk music is dominated by writer/artists, so it is difficult to find applications for purely folk songs in the market place.
I have been told that Europe is a much larger listening audience for that type of music than we are here. We have always been driven by "pop culture" and the mainstream scene here, so folk takes kind of side roads when it comes to that audience.
But as I said, there are many opportunities for folk affecinados to express themselves and share what they do with like minded people. There are music fairs, conferences, conventions, festivals, etc. almost everywhere you look. So there are a lot of options.

MAB

thank you I truely appreciate your comments, yes there are festivals and many people who still love folk music. I hear great song writers at folk festivals but - and here is the but ... I bet they don't sell 200 CD's. So when I say market it appears to me to be very limited retail wise but that is the question and not my comment. I have heard some killer songs that nearly everyone would enjoy in the country genre but I don't see how anyone will hear them outside of the festivals. Much of the country music from the past is indeed folk or traditional based. However with the cost of studio time and unless a CD is home produced where are the market opportunities? I see even greats like Lightfoot rarely played anymore outside of the specialized sirus or traditional stations with limited listeners. Or am I wrong , it is actually a question. I see on the web where many summer festivals have closed due to poor attendance.

Now Canada still seems to have a strong following.

When I look at great writers and performers IE ... look at John Prine .. his writing is as good as ever. His concerts are small venues and most people I know would not know about his latest CD .. so that is the market question.

Thanks again

Dan,

I can only offer perspective that comes from dealing with a lot of people from all elements of the music genre. Except for the blip on the radar screen of the 60's, folk music was always kind of a "living room" sing along element of music. It never reached a lot of sales and was almost always exclusive to it's relativly small, yet dedicated legions of fans.
Like any elements of the music industry, I would suggest you tap into the people who are actually doing it and find out where and how that market exists. There are things like house concerts, the aforementioned festivals and in almost every city and town are coffee houses and smaller clubs that cater to that. As far as getting rich, promoting your material to large audiences, that just rarely happens because it is a very artist driven format and the majority of people involved in it are interested in selling product, not buying. It is like any type of music, trying to create your own niche.
From a venue perspective, it is very difficult to depend on a constant stream of listeners for folk music. There are pockets of it, the North East, New york State, Boston, Baltimore, DC, areas like that with clubs like the Birchmire, that feature those kinds of acts. I know they are out there because they come through here all the time. Of course the majority find very quickly that they are in a niche market and either adapt their style to more country for wider acceptance or be grateful for the small sales they get, try to keep their costs down and do what they can to get their music out there.
All music is off and festivals have suffered. all music is a luxury item as opposed to food and with the wide spread availiblity due to the internet, it is just very hard to stay alive with music alone. Many have turned to teaching (such as myself)or motivational speaking in conjunction with their music.
Other than that, it is really hard to answer what you are looking for. The market is selective, there are a LOT of people who do it, huge supply, finite demand. It is that way in all forms of music and everyone is finding their own way the best they can. It seems to be stronger in Europe and Canada but there are travel and trade issues to deal with. Things that people from Nashville often find is that you have to be very careful how you approach international markets. There are not so much clearly paved avenues and most people I have ever known that go to those markets usually lose money the first couple of times as they learn the ropes.
I am sorry if I can't provide more insights. I deal more with people trying to get out of the folk market and make their songs more commercial because of the reasons we have named here. I hope this makes some sense.

MAB

There is ALWAYS a market for good music. If you are in a Nitch Type music your market may be limited.

Real Folk Music went out when eletricity came in. Bluegrass likely replaced folk music. Earlier before Country Music it was called Folk Music. Make marketable music. It will probably sell.

Ray,

Ain't that the truth. You remember when Pete Seeger was trying to find an axe to cut the power cables when Dylan went electric in 67' at Newport. And that is kind of the thing with so much of folk music. They are purists, and if anything comes outside their purveiw of what fits "Their market" it is not accepted. The same with Bluegrass.
And the revulsion in folk to conform to a commercial time frame, make their stories more relevant to today's audiences, up date their language, etc. is exactly the reason it remains a niche. The same can be said of Bluegrass and drums. They simply won't hear of it. So it relegates itself to a limited appeal.
That is what a lot of songwriters and singers go through. They have their own styles or own things in music they want to do yet are angry at the world when it doesn't get or embrace what they have to offer. And the definition of "good" or commercial is so subjective, it often falls on deaf ears due to the writer or singer's own attitudes or traits.
Many times people come to Nashville, play songs for publishers and pluggers that come from that folk perspective. it just doesn't fly because you are just not going to get people to listen or market seven and eight minute, nine verse songs. We are simply not in that time any more. Love it or hate it, that is the deal.
Now people always have the right to form their own record labels, (what most artists do any way) publishing companies, etc. and go about developing their own markets. And as we have said with folk, there is a lot of places to go. But you have to realize the limited factor of that marketing plan.
Some people that were mentioned earlier, John Prine, being one, have been successful in their own ways, but again, started many years ago, and have developed it over the years. A personal favorite of mine, David Wilcox (we auditioned for the Bluebird the same day) have done well on their own. There are those like John Hyatt and Mac Macanally, who adapted their style to the more country market and have succeeded, and Hyatt has done well in the rock market. Steve Seskin had some success years ago and has turned a lot to teaching as opposed to really changing his style.
So much of this has to do with the soul and attitudes of the artist and writer. If they wish to find a market, they will. If they don't want to put forth the effort to market themselves, they won't. It is about that simple.

MAB

Marc
thank you! that completely answers my question. For me it doesn't matter because I do things just for fun and the music isn't good enough even if the market was there but I was very curious because I heard people say yes it certainly is yet can't see it anywhere commercially. You stated it very clear and completely answered the question. Thanks so very much for your kind response.
To all of you nice folks great answers ...
Dan

Oh one final question guys, do you think bluegrass and blues fall under the same type of constraints market wise?

everyone I talk to gives me a different answer so I wanted to ask you guys who are experts in the music field like my question on folk. Oh is a singer songwriter like Gillian Welch considered bluegrass or country in the industry? I am trying to understand the classifications in the music industry. Again none of my questions were directed towards myself. I am a computer geek who has fun nothing more. Just trying to understand markets and classifications and if the questions sound silly it is because of my lack of knowledge about music.

Thanks again
Dan

Marc,

I've run afoul of both the folk and bluegrass purists many times.

In my Chicago days, I was chairman of the faculty at the Old Town School of Folk music as well as a performer in the Chicago folk scene. Chicago Magazine called me the city's "favorite singer-songwriter." When I moved to Nashville, I returned to play at the school (a major folk venue) and some of the Chicago clubs quite frequently. One year at the school, I outdrew the Carter Family. But when a new director was named, he decided not to book me at the school, said I wasn't "folk" enough. Mind you, I played a single with acoustic guitar, not even acoustic electric, and included traditional songs. When the school had their anniversary party, I was finally invited to play, so I brought the late David Schauffer (generally regarded as the world's number one mountain dulcimer player) and Vinnie Farsetta (multiple award winning banjo frailer) and we folked them good. We out folked other acts that night including the Limelighters, and Tom Paxton. That night only Odetta, God rest that wonderful lady, was as folkie as our trio. So I have a personal "thing" about the folk purists.

In Bluegrass, the old band I was with, Red, White, and Blue(grass), had the bluegrass pedigree. Members included Norman Blake and Vassar Clements. However, we were the first major bluegrass band to travel with a drummer. Man did we ever catch H-E-double hockey sticks for that!

Of course, nowdays, there's neo-punk-folk, folk-jazz, every kind of music is all folked up.

Guys
There is no way I am a purist on any music. I just trying to understand the categories there is a 1954 publication on what is folk. Heck if music is good it is good no matter what we call it right. I just trying to understand when I go into buy a CD there are about 1000 different classifications. It is like what is country? for a purist country is Hank Williams ... but that boundary was exceeded years and years ago ..

I trying to figure out from an artist standpoint .. A James Taylor is he folk? or a Lightfoot?

those guys don't do 9 verses of the same thing. I agree completely with your assessment. I am not railing at all nor talking about myself in anyway. The music industry is a dynamic I try to understand for I hear so many different answers other places. Thats why I ask the experts and do so appreciate your time..

maybe there is no classification just music and that could be the answer .. don't know. but me as a purist ... no way
heck I like opera also ...

When I say I heard great music at a folk festival that most would say country, others would say folk ... I am not talking where have all the flower gone for 30 straight minutes. Maybe the easiest question would be this. If James Taylor or Lightfoot were starting today would they have the success they have enjoyed 30 years ago and what would they be called folk , country?

thanks again

I like a lot of folk music, but I agree with Marc about a lot of the folkie attitudes I come across. Actually, Chicago is more open to folk in a broader sense than a lot of other places. If you check out some of the folk sites and read comments and follow listening patterns of many of the listeners, it is clear that there is still a strong core of elitist folkies out there that cannot listen to something if it does not fit their very tight definition of folk in terms of instrumentation, delivery, etc. I consider much of what I do folk, but because I often combine the country elements of my youth I and will mix my sets up with a range of styles I know some of them cannot hear it.

Geeze
I didn't think I was a snobby folk anything. I also like country, some say I play a pretty good bluegrass banjo ... I also use to do rock ...

Just said that folk is the music I like a lot probable most and wondered if there was a market. Marc kindly answered.

I regret asking the question folks

my apologies

I will close the thread

I am not sure why you regret asking the question? Did you not want feedback?

Dan,

Nobody said anything about you...nobody. My observations were about some of the folk music community, same as some of the bluegrass community, same as some of any music community. There are always some people who reject anything but a very narrow view of their favorite music. No one included you in that observation.

I'm a folkie and a bluegrasser myself.

Dan,

Nobody is getting antsy here.Everything is fine. It is a very good question and one I come in contact with a lot. As I said, my job in life is as a "personal consultant" for songs and songwriters. I work with them around the world on sites like these, when they come to town, pretty much anything you can imagine.
The truth is that people and music are very personal things. They all have their own vision. Yet, when you step out into the market place you have to conform those visions to other people's versions of what that is. The people who book clubs, have radio shows, do special events, etc. You name it.
When I moved to town in 88' I was about as close to a square peg in a round hole as you could get. I am very strongly influenced by Ray Charles and the Eagles so i was constantly "Too blues for country and too country for blues." But a guy that was seen three weeks before me,Travis Tritt, ended up getting a record deal doing almost the exact same thing as I was. The guy who signed him, saw me three weeks later and said "If I had seen you first.." I actually had a bigger vocal range. But that is what happens.
In bluegrass, blues, folk, etc. there are always kind of unwritten rules. They are not in stone just kind of taking for granted. Artists like James Taylor started at the end of the folk boom in the 70's and were embraced by the singer songwriter boom of that era. Carly Simon, Elton John, Billy Joel, Cat Stevens, all started out as those acoustic singer/songwriters and adapted into rock. Right place, right time. There were people like Donovan and others who did the same thing in England and all those musical movements kind of adapted into "FM rock."
In the 70's they went from AM radio to FM radio and so all kinds of music made it into the mainstream. In the space of a thirty minute set you would hear "Dead Skunk in the Middle of the Road" by Loudan Wainright the third, "Uneasy Rider" by Charlie Daniels, followed by Pink Floyd, Led Zepplin, David Bowie, Alice Cooper, James Taylor, the Eagles, etc. It was an amazingly diverse format.
In the 80's corporations controlled radio and the formats fragmented, and that has been the same to this day. Audiences changed and that "group mentality" of the Woodstock years, segmented into their own areas. Niche's like Bluegrass, blues, folk, etc. all split to their own worlds.
Now, we have a little bit of the same "group mentality. Someone with a Kenny Chesney on his I-Pod, might follow that with Nine Inch Nails,Cold Play, and instersperce Nancy Griffith, Gillian Welch and John Prine. It is actually very diverse. It is just that the music is all over the place now. That is the current market place, all over the map.
Music is now about niche's and more artists developing smaller fan bases. It is a very customized world and what you or any of is are trying to do,is find a fit for yourself and try to fit in or create your own niche.
Most of us take those influences and put them into an amalgamation of styles inside each songs. if you would like an example of what I do and what I am talking about, you might visit my web site, www.marclanbarnette.com. in the methods of my teaching examples, I write songs with people then follow them through to the demo process.
The song is called "Less is More" and the demo is about our recording process. It shows me bringing the song into the studio I work out of, Jay's Place, us mapping or "charting" the song out, and adding the players as we go. the song is a bit of a throwback song to the 60's or 70's Motown era (The Bass player is Bob Babbitt, who played on Signed Sealed Delivered, Midnight Train to Ga., Rubber band Man, and many others) The lesson was how to slow down lyric patterns to develop a more singable song. The student was a client out of North Carolina, who is moving to Nashville and trying to learn to write in more of a contemporary country vein. The Video won it's first award at an Indiana movie festival.
The point is it takes my R&B, and blues influences and put it in the style of some modern country singers like James Otto, who are in today's commercial country market.
The only way I can explain some things are to show you. While this doesn't so much show you about your initial question, it does demonstrate (I hope) ways to adapt and shape music where it fits into more catagories.

MAB

Dan, I hope you didn't think I was meaning any offense to you as a folkie. Like I said I consider much of what I do folk, it is just that some people are so narrow in their views that what I do doesn't fall into their definition of it and that seems crazy to me. I do think there is a market for it, but it is limited. The most successful ones I know of in this day and age manage to get into the folk circuits in their areas doing house concerts and festivals and getting airplay on certain PBS and internet radio stations and programs. They will not sell CDs in the millions, but some of them make a decent living. It requires constant work and touring to maintain it, though.

Marc, I hope you don't mind a correction here, but I believe the URL to your site is: www.marcalanbarnette.com

You forgot an "a"'. :-)

EDIT: Had to correct my correction!

Guys
no offense taken my friends. And thank you for the time. I understand now. After what Marc said the light went on. In the 60's and 70's it was a group oriented space. Today with the technology it is more niche since there are so many more ways of delivering music. Categories are now pretty much meaningless and styles are mixed. Great info
Thank you
I listen to the songs on the link Marc ... how beautiful
thanks again
DAn

Hey guys,

Kevin, I don't know if you are talking to me, but my name is Marc-Alan Barnette, not Burnette, so that link I don't think would link to me.

MAB

Sorry Marc, That was a typo on my part in trying to correct your typo. In your post, you forgot the first "a" in "alan", and I accidently changed the "a" in barnette to a "u".

I'll give it one more try: www.marcalanbarnette.com

Kevin,

That's right. What was my typo? Oh, the first "A". Thanks. See we all miss stuff. Something about doing forums at 2:00 in the morning after 14 hours a day of doing stuff with music. Thanks for keeping an eye out for me.

Is there a forum or thread here about what everyone is doing? I know the success stories, but I was wondering is their like an activities forum? Would be interesting if people shared where they were, any problems they are experiencing, etc. It has been my experience in these types of places that if someone is going through some problems there is someone else who just went through or is going through the exact same thing. Helps avoid pitfalls. I'd like to see that.

MAB

Ray,

I'm with you. Cream floats.

When the Stray Cats came in all at once everyone was 'in to Rockabilly'. I was just happy to hear more than 1 or 2 good songs on an album for a change.

Genre is and will always be transcended by qreatness.

br
www.writethismusic.com

"Genre is and will always be transcended by qreatness." -billrocker

Bill, that is a wonderful quote, is it yours? I'd like to add it to my sig line, I'd give you credit for it of course, if I could have your permission.

Mike

Mike,

I'm quite honored. Yes, it just popped into my head at that moment in time. Feel free. I truly am honored that you asked.

Thanks so much.

br (Bill Renfrew)
www.writethismusic.com