JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Industry Message Forum What is music worth?

That report has largely been debunked by various sources. The problem with that report is that MCPS-PRS looked at a single point of sale and made their claims based on that. Meanwhile, eMusic reported that virtually every song in their catalog (which exists entirely out of 'long-tail' music) sold at least one copy over the same period.

John,

Great research. That says that last year of the 13 million songs availible for sale on the Internet, 10 million did not sell a single copy. That is 85% of music that was given away for free. That needs to be something that you "I'm selling it on the Internet" point of view need to think about. The Internet is used as an advertising tool, and music is being given away to get people to shows.
So Lucian, I go back to my original point, that is you want to work hard and get out there performing all the time, you will do pretty well. If you are thinking you are going to sit in your living room at your computer, waiting for CD BABY or some site to have your money rolling in, you better have a REALLY good day job.
Music has always been a "point of sale" business. Most people buy CD's after they become aware of an audience, primarily through videos. So before you think you can just put out a shingle and declare yourself a "successful musician" you need to be prepared to get out there, advertise and work.

MAB

Jim,

Even if those exact numbers are wrong, it is pretty accurate as far as I am concerned in dealing with writers, artists, record companies, producers, etc. Downloading has decimated what we make, there is absolutley no doubt about that. And that most people are conditioned to demand music for free. They feel they are entitled to it.
Which reinforces my whole mind set which is to de-emphasize the money factor, do music for the love of it, and then if good things happen (and they will) count everything as a plus.

MAB

On this subject i am of the opinion that the technology was available and being used before the record companies, including ones like SONY who are also in the technology business started paying attention to it as a viable entity for retail. They did nothing to protect themselves and in turn lost billions of dollars for them and artists on their label. Yes they were caught with their pants down and are still feeling the effects of it. On the other hand the indie artists thought they were getting a leg up only to be three steps behind the techies on keeping income flowing to them for each download, download 1 file share 8 is about where it is , but that's just my opinion. Opinions don't change the facts of the world we live in. Those are the rules of the game now, we all must deal with it as it is.

Yes Marc the establishment do not like it when they have to compete on a level playing field.
If people can put out good music for free and advertise for free and network for free...forcing the establishment to rethink then I say more power to their elbow.

Record shops are all but a thing of the past...closing at an alarming rate.
Downloads are on the up. Most of the top recording labels have missed the boat despite trying to get legislation in their favour. Independants are NOW making their mark..the establishment with its conveyer belt manufactured songs and acts are on their way out. They are being replaced by home grown stuff that is every bit as good if not better than the cloned mass produced stuff we here on TV and radio.

Live music is now making a comeback. Perhaps we are going back to the days of the front room concerts where everyone had to do a party piece and everybody played an instrument.

Music will never die....it evolves...I will be glad when the current dinosaurs become extinct. They have ruled for far too long.

Maybe if the dinosaurs made music for the love of it and had some taste we would not be in this situation.

I love music BUT I cannot accept the mediocrity that these guys churn out. I am capable of doing that on my own without having to get paid obscene amounts of money.

Moker,

You are very right in your assesment. The deal with Sony and other entities is while they lost revenue in the purchasing of music, acts, etc. they made money in their product divisions, I-pods, CD burners, blank CD's. etc. These companies are invested in many different avenues and have companies under different names so you don't always know it is them.
But it is here, there is no avoiding it. We are going to have to make the best of it. More people will get known better and their music will be out there. But getting paid for it in that way, will be difficult. At the end of the day it is about activity.

MAB

People being conditioned to demand music for free is only a part of the whole picture. A big part, perhaps, but if people REALLY didn't want to pay for music, why the heck does the iTunes Store still work? And why are initiatives like Spotify gaining tracktion? The market is transitioning and yes, unfortunately, this has a negative impact on many who rely on the old market for their livelihood. On the other hand, there are plenty of folk who are thriving in the new market. The success of someone like Jonathan Coulton, who's made a career out of giving away music for free (and then selling it to his fans once they were hooked), would have been entirely unthinkable 10 years ago. The tide's changing. Get with the flow or get out of the water!

I disagree with de-emphasizing the money factor. If you really want to make a living with your music, you can. All the tools are there, it just ain't easy. You can't just flip a switch and wait for the money to come rolling in. You have to work for it. And gold plated humvees might not be in your direct future (but who cares about those things anyway?)

One more example: Steve Lawson is a solo bassist from the UK, who has just returned from a profitable tour doing shows in living rooms across the US.

Anything goes these days!

Jim,

You must have a different situation in Scotland than we do here because live venues are closing at an alarming rate. And I wouldn't hold out hope for the dinosaurs to die off at any time soon, they still hold the cards, still control retail, and still are the primary purveyors of video and advertising budgets.
I don't know if you read the other thread that a study was done and 85% of music on the Internet for sale was given away for free. Out of 13 million songs out there 10 million did not sell one copy. An argument was made that disputed those findings but in my dealings with the industry, both independent and mainstream artists, that is about right.
But music will live on and adapt. Always does. But their will always be a mainstream. It doesn't just one day dissapear. There will always be charts, always be record companies. Always be publishers. Someone will always make money and most people won't. And even when you think some of these people make a fortune, they actually make much less than you might think.
The point of everything I do, and probably Rand and other pros is that you make great music and constantly work on getting it and yourself out there in as many ways as you can. That is the other constant. Those that work hard at it, will be doing well.
Those who don't, won't.

MAB

meanwhile Taylor Swift tickets are going for $220 a head on the Ticketmaster auction for the concert here in Jacksonville in May. The site was jammed to where you couldn't get through the day they went on sale and now there's an auction starting at $220...sounds like the mafia is in the ticket business...ha...I think Taylor's activity has generated some demand, whatcha think?

Our bluegrass band sells cds steadily on the internet. We've got three cds on CDBaby and sell all three equally as well. That's been one of the keys, we sell the three cds at just about three times the rate we sold when we only had one.

What gets our sales? TV exposure. We're on RFD-TV's bluegrass show fairly regularly. Everytime we appear, sales spike. That, and live exposure. When we play the festival circuit we sell there (and those live sales account for more than a third of our yearly sales) and we tell them to look us up on CDBaby.

Many of the folks who buy from us have heard us before, have bought from us before, and stop by our tables at the festivals to say they bought our cd on CDBaby.

It's all the fact that they know us, and knew us before they bought. I'm not aware of one sale that we got from people just cruising the net looking for bluegrass and bumping into us.

Jim,

I think we are on the same page here. The people who do well are innovators. I have a LOT of friends (including myself) who have found ways to combine their music with motivational speaking, some who have turned alcohol problems into a positive (one friend has entire CD's and videos dedicated to just that, there are AA radio stations, and she does a comedy routine about a very serious subject) Some find house concerts. Some use the internet to great effect, but almost ALL of them are out there "pressing the flesh."
You just can't count on any one thing, great writing, good recordings, videos, Internet, live shows, advertising, etc. to make your fortune. You have to do it all.

MAB

Hi Marc you are preaching to the convrted I do all the things you say...I perform live...I network...advertise...sell stuff at my gigs....I even record session stuff and diversify by making jingles and voice overs. I make a reasonable living and do not put all my eggs in one basket.

Yes online sales ratio to stuff posted is very poor and I believe the figures...but back in the bad old days the situation was even worse. Nobody other than the handpicked few or very rich people who could afford to produce a record and pay for expensive studio time and pressing of records had any records out in the first place.

Established big name stars are now performing live concerts to make a profit because the record sales are too low. I remember the time when tours were huge lossmakers but neceesary to promote an album.

Now a tv or radio played track is there to promote a tour.

I have to agree times are tough and the first thing to take a back seat and get cut back is music and entertainment. I do not think that it is as bad here as in some places in the States but it is getting that way. Being the Capital of Scotland we have many tourists and a large population so there are tons of places to play. The cream will always have work.

I think we have a lot in common even if it is only a love of music and a desire for perfection.

You also wear skirts with no underwear so there is that additional drawing factor. LOL!

We are on the same page. Keep at it and let me know if you ever need the ol' Jingoistic American perspective.

I don't know if I told you of my friend and client David Campbell from Edinborough. David comes here a couple of times a year, and was having me critique a song. He had these lines,

"Going to New Orleans, gonna listen to some jazz,"
"Goign to New Orleans, gonna catch the Mardi Gras"

I said, "David, it is pronounced Mardi GrAW, not Mardi Grass."

"Oh," he said in a very thick Scottish Brogue,
"I thought it was the plural!"

Got to love the Scotts!!

MAB

Marc, thanks for the reply, how many shows do I play? None. I might do the odd little gig in Camden Town where I live when the time is right, but never outside of Camden Town... Kentish Town maybe. I'm hard working but not in the way of using the phone for 12 hours a days. I hate making phone calls at all, and that's not something that will change. Of all the things you mentioned I will probably do almost none. I have health problems which limit my energy, and currently ALL that limited energy is devoted to my music - I only leave my flat twice a week currently to do the shopping. So with all its downsides, the internet has given me a possible avenue to take my life out of a terminal drift it had been in for a long time.

Like you say, this business is what you put into it, and I do literally put my soul into it, so my hope is my music has that little bit of something about it to make it stand out from the ordinary. Deciding to make my own album was a kind of act of faith on my part, and I'll leave it to the music gods to show me what to do and how to promote my album when it's done.

Cheers Lucian

Lucian,

I wish you well. I just don't know how you make people know you are there outside of taking your music to them. I am a student of music history, and I have just never heard of anyone building a fan base by staying in the living room. Maybe you can be the first.

MAB

Perhaps you need to study some more then, 'cause that's what he did!

Stayed at home the first year, writing, recording and releasing a new song every week. He only started touring once his music had already found an audience on the web. The key thing, of course, is that his "Thing a week" by itself was a noteworthy endeavor, which is why (I think) he managed to draw attention to himself online.

Hi Marc I agree with Jim. In this PC age it is easy to get people to hear your music....all from the comfort of your own living room. I do very little of this however... As a performing singer I try to build a fan base at gigs...but certainly the way forward is to network online AND get out and meet people as well. Either way on its own can work but doing both covers all the bases.
Time is precious and you have to manage it and use it the best way you can.

jim,

Very nice. We people over here that win the lottery too. They don't do anything except put a few bucks in the convenient store and buy a ticket. Happens in about one in a billion times. But I don't think people want to plan on feeding their families, paying their bills, based upon that.
The things I talk about are the reality of life. I have heard a lot of these people who do nothing but stay in their living rooms. As a matter of fact, I would say a majority of many people I work with do just that. And their music reflects it.
The Internet is a tool, like everything else. And some people succeed. I wonder how well he would be doing if he never left his home. In the 90's we had a lot of people plan on using the Internet to make their fortunes. Some did. For a while. Then it burst. It was called the dot.com bubble.
But I guess since it is so easy now, no writer should ever even get out anymore. I guess everybody can base their hopes on the Internet, and no one has to even do any work outisde their living room again. Cool. I welcome it. Thins out the competition.

MAB

Well, there's staying at home and staying at home. If all you do is record a CD, put it on the web and wait and see what happens, then your chances of success are comparable to winning the lottery with a ticket you found on the sidewalk.

But that's not what Jonathan Coulton (the guy I linked to above) did. He came up with a novel concept, attracted a lot of fans with that and eventually made decent living by selling his music to those fans - all from the comfort of his living room.

During the dot com bubble everyone and your uncle thought that the internet would make them rich with next to no effort. Why people believed the internet to be like that is quite beyond me (the idea is just plain stupid). However, the fact that the bubble burst doesn't mean that you can't make a lot of money on the web (this guy made tens of thousands of dollars a month with the ads on his blog). Of course, running a business on the internet is just like running any other business - you gotta be smart, you gotta work hard and you gotta reach out and let people know you.

Jim,

If you read the post from Lucian, that is just what he intends to do. He doesn't play out, doesn't co-write, doesn't go anywhere outside of his neighborhood. He is wanting to do a CD and put it out on the Internet.
You see, I am a reactionary individual. I read and listen to what people say and try to give them advice based upon real life instead of theories and execptions to the rules. That doesn't happen enough to base career advice on.

When I moved to Nashville 20 years ago, it was called a "ten year town." That means it took a minimum of ten years to develop the skills, get attention of hit writers, publishers, record company exectutives and start making tangible inroads. I got a major cut essentially the first night in town. It took an average of 2 years to play a regular set at the Bluebird cafe' which is Nashville's top songwriting night club. There is a standing list of 25,000 people who have auditioned and are waiting to play. I played in three weeks. I had serious attention from major record labels and publishing company entities within six months.
I have been working with an artist and have gotten him to the point of signing a major label record deal worth around 2 million dollars. That is one year after beginning working with me and is based mostly around songs I wrote with him.
You see, I have broken all the rules too. I could point to all kinds of execptions and give examples of things like that, but that would not do Lucian or people in that position any favors. These major companies have millions of dollars to put into promotion and do just that. If they could just sit back and break artists on internet, they would. They don't because they know like always you have to get your artists and music in front of the people.
Even the fellow you are talking about, I am sure did a lot of work that you probably don't even know about to promote what he is doing. And he probably had a lot of people along the way who did elements of helping him along, from a grass roots organizations that tell their friends, and business people that helped him along at various points. And he might not even know all the people who have helped him. We often don't know of our own "guardian angels" who are out there promoting us and doing things behind the scene that make our careers come alive.
The point of all of this is developing strategies to get music and artists, and writers out into the real world. The Internet, through web sites, networking sites and other resource avenues are important to a career but not the only avenue. And on their own, only end up being in the millions of "spam" e-mails we see too much of from people we don't know.
People like Lucian come to Nashville all the time. Those that have very little real world experience outside the confines of their own computers or in their own social and local networks. And their music sounds like it. It sounds as if they went to a grab bag of subject matter, rhymes and cliched' approaches. Because they write songs that all sound exactly alike, with very little differentiation between them and everyone else out there. The only way that happens is to create a product that separates you from everybody else and that only comes through knowing what is out there.

That is what I suggest. Get out there and find out what is there, and do your homework before you start a project or end up spending money to get the same results the majority of writers and artists do. Doing forgettable product that costs money, time and precious emotional resources.

MAB

Marc,

Sometimes, it IS important to write the same old love song. It's part of the learning process, and there's no way around that unless you're Jimmy Webb, and even he wasn't born a great songwriter, he wrote the same crap we all do when he started out.

Picasso painted in the style of his predecessors before he went all Cubist on us. There is a place, in a writers life, for the good, the bad, and the ugly. Hopefully, the "good" is before us, the "bad" behind, and "ugly" the one we write every time we get drunk and think Waylon needs a new song.

What in essence you are saying in your last post then, is folks come to you thinking they are more "advanced" in their writing then they really are, and you have to set many of them straight, which is probably a difficult job, unless you're a sadist.

But keep in mind that there are a myriad of reasons why people write, not all of them are to be a hit songwriter in Nashville. Some people might just want to be able to sing their girlfriend a nice, heartfelt love song, with perhaps a bit less concern to have a "unique" way of putting it, and his existence and song is just as important and valid as the guy trying to make a living finding unique ways of saying "I love you"...

I DO think you underestimate the importance of DESIRE to achieve a goal. One can find ways of networking that haven't even been invented yet, if one has a strong enough desire to achieve a goal.

In a way, it's Darwinism in action: the ones with no true desire fall by the wayside over time, leaving the ones with true desire. The ones with true desire who are too stubborn to learn from their mistakes and write a better song then give up, leaving those willing to put out a big effort, and who are open to learning and growth. For these people, the ones that STILL don't make it--HAVE, in a sense, because they didn't play the victim, but truly gave it everything they had; moreover being someone who can write a good song is, in and of itself, a good and important thing that nobody can take away from you.

I don't think it's fair or nice to use Lucian in your example, though, because there are those with health problems who become actualized, and achieve their goals. And besides, Lucian writes a rather unique song, he has a distinct songwriting "voice", and he does just need to stick with it, and to network to the best of his ability. He is writing as an "artist", not as a Nashville songwriter, so saying "People like Lucian come to Nashville all the time" can be misleading. People like Lucian do not go to Nashville at all, you are using Lucian as your example of a "naive person" and I think Lucian knows what he needs to know at this particular place and time.

Why are we here? Let's not forget that as long as we participate in this JPF process to some degree, we ARE networking, we ARE becoming better songwriters, we point out each others cliche's and promote each others' uniqueness, and only a small percentage are trying to be songwriters in the sense that you are experienced with, in Nashville in the year 2009.

Finally, I stand by what I said: that the ONLY question we really need to ask, is: If I knew I would NEVER make another penny (more) at music, would I continue to make it?

Mike

Marc, I'm going to a specific thread in response to these comments.

Mike,

I don't think you understand very much about what it is I do for a living. I actually work almost exclusively with people who just want to write. I am involved in helping them in their goals to make them better writers. And no,not everyone wants to be a hit Nashville songwriter. I don't want to be a hit Nashville songwriter.I want to write the best songs I can and teach by example. But almost every one that comes to Nashville, gets on these threads, and work at writers, generally want some exposure to the industry in some way shape or form. That is reality.
I am making no aspersions on Lucian's talent or Charachter, or any physical problems he might have. and if it seems like that I apologise. If you knew me or my works you would know that I am the last person to do that.
I respond to people's comments about process and try to give them some ideas of what to expect. When I talk about "people like Lucian come to Nashville" i mean people that don't get far from their own door yet are wanting people in the industry or in the public to "discover them through the internet.' Some might,but without some kind of contact with the public, the chances of that are very slim just due to the amount of traffic on the Internet.
I am not trying to preach Nashville or the music business. I am trying to show the "other side of the desk" which is what people come to this town for. If it doesn't apply to those who are not interested in it, they should ignore what I am saying. Everyone has their own methods. Some are new and innovative and some are as old as music itself.
People come to Nashville primarily because it is a fairly easily navicable community of like minded individuals. It is not just country. It is blues, rock, soul, R&B, Rap, hip hop and Christian and pretty much all things in between. But one of the main reasons they come is because almost all other forms of music are self contained. which means there is almost no chance for outside cuts. It is a do it yourself world.
What I am attempting to do is show the pros and cons and provide some insight to what it is here. They are usually not going to Europe, Asia, Austrailia, or other countries or other towns in the US. They come here. And they come usually becauase they can't find the sense of community in their own neighborhoods. At least that is what they tell me. That is why I address things in Nashville. For the people who are interested in it. Those who are not interested in it don't have to listen to anything I or anyone else says. I am not the last word. Just one of them.
And even if people are not trying to be an artist, writer or conformist, that is fine. But the second they step into the arena of ideas, at least as far as it goes here, there are rules and etticate that apply. No one has to learn or adhere to them. But it makes things a lot easier when they do.

MAB

Marc,

Perhaps you don't know what I do. I moved away from Nashville to take care of my mom who is now 92. It's not writing lyrics for a living, but it IS a job with a heart. Nowadays I'm physically around other songwriters quite a bit less than you, I'd say. Still, it was fairly understandable to me, and pretty easy to see that another member of this community might not enjoy being made the "poster-child" of the "wide-eyed huckster" on his way to Nashville.

In the future I won't talk directly to you about music outside of "the Nashville perspective" since you seem to indicate that I should stick to "your" subject, and that's okay by me... But just because I bring up different ideas doesn't mean "I don't understand what you do".

Still, you might understand how somebody seeing "what is music worth", and reading Everett's initial post, might think their ideas are welcome, and might be a little confused by how one particular perspective has come to dominate "the conversation"...

You really can't disagree with anything I said in my prior post, and maybe folks DO need to be reminded that a steadfast desire is as major a puzzle piece as having the goods. I, like you, wish for more folks to understand what they really want from music, so there's no deep regret at the end of the line.

Mike

No argument there!

All I'm saying is that it doesn't really matter whether you go offline or online or both. In every case, your success is most often directly proportional to the effort you put in.

great thread...i love reading all these perpsectives

..ant

my thoughts on "what is music worth"

my grandfather was a troubador, from a long tradition in spanish families in new mexico...played traditional spanish folk songs...wrote these great "one-off" songs for weddings, birthdays, anniversaries and such...songs were like little stories, he wrote in a lot of personal details about folks lives..when he'd play and sing them, everyone would go wild whenever they would hear these fun lines with references to memorable moments...afterwards, these songs were pretty much "thrown away"...but they were priceless, as are my memories of them and him.

my cousin was a singer and bass player in a local band. they never became famous and played mostly clubs, weddings and such. I don't think he ever did anything for a living but play music - a working musician. he passed away a couple of years ago, and at his funeral a stream of friends, many musicians, came and talked about the impact his music, playing and entertaining had on their lives...to play music for a living and leave an impact...pretty priceless.

no fame, no big money involved...but pretty priceless stuff

..ant

my thoughts on the music industry, making money, etc.

i think music industry is like any other industry. build your skills, work hard, produce a quality product (i.e. hooky material), get yourself out there, network like crazy, pave the ground for your success. but for big success -- having a hit song for example, which seems to be a lot of the focus in various discussions -- you need a combination of timing and luck. you can be very talented, very dedicated and hard working, but if the market ain't buying what you got right now, seems you're out of luck. It's gotta be the right place, right time and the right song.

I remember seeing No Doubt when they were just a local band. After their huge success, Gwen Stefani said they spent years without major success because their music was catchy and positive, while everyone was into Nirvana and depressing grunge. When that shifted, they were in the right place, right time, with the right material.

Luck is so important. Seems like for every rule, there's an exception:

write positive songs -- Tracy Chapman's stuff is kinda depressing, but she's had success
don't write the same thing over and over again -- Jack Johnson and tons of others have had success repeating their formulas
don't just post on youtube and wait for success - Chocolate Rain - 34M views on YouTube and the guy has made "hefty hefty fees" for licensing

I read that Slumdog Millionaire almost went straight to DVD!

..ant

my thoughts on the internet

it's only just begun. everything will change.

being in the software industry for 25 years, where piracy has been a problem since day one, it's a losing battle. i think in the end, subscription based music services will win the day. every song ever recorded for a simple monthly fee. if the industry doesn't make it happen soon, eventually peer to peer systems will win instead, because they will offer essentially the same thing. unstoppable. ease of use is the only barrier and that's coming down with each new generation of peer-to-peer software.

the extreme possibility is that recorded music moves to a creative commons model. recordings will be free. musicians will make money by performing. songwriters by licensing for commercial uses. but no individual is gonna be paying for songs or CDs one-off.

The only choice, in my mind, to stop the peer-to-peers is for the industry is to offer a subscription service that is dead-simple, high-quality, inclusive of all songs, and cheap cheap cheap. make the peer-to-peers irrelevant by offering a more appealing commercial solution.

I'm not a student of music history, but it seems to me like most of our history, musicians made money by performing, composers made money on commissioned works and sponsorship, and most music was performed outside of commerce..there's every possibility that this period of time (invention of recording to now) where songwriters made money via royalties, and musicians made money selling copies of recorded performances, will be just a quaint and fleeting blip on music history. kinda like the quaint and fleeting blip in history where we could simply pull oil out of the ground to fuel our engines (a time soon coming to an end). a lot of money was made until everything changed and new business models had to be invented.

..ant

one more thing...

i'll never make a dime but i'll do it till i die

..ant

P.S. maybe that'll be the title to my next song

Music is worth getting mad about.

This is what I'd like to see happen. Every song ever recorded available to listen to on a paid service, each song listened to would be paid a small fee, every song downloaded by listener,a larger fee. This service should be available by car and home radio as well as by the net. A listener should be able to program his/her preference in music to be available at the touch of a button, and be able to search, find and add more music to their program. I'm sure this technology is available, just a matter of someone applying it. All should be available world wide by satellite.

I think this would put way too much power in too few peoples' hands. Would your songs be included in this, Ev? Or anyone's here at JPF? What would be the prerequisites? Let's say the bar is set at how many indie downloads one sells before getting added. Then a rich person would have a much bigger advantage over a poor artist by simply buying enough of their own songs to get put on the mainstream service. Or would there be "programmers" to decide what gets on? That wouldn't ever get corrupt, would it?

Yes, there are a lot of upsides to it, I'm just too skeptical about the downsides. If one service offers everything, it turns into a monoopoly.

We all have different taste in music, one man's meat is another man's poison. Much of the music played on radio today, in many genres, is poison to me, but someone likes it, so it is made available. So why not make all professionally recorded songs available on some giant storage hard drive. It would be up to the listener(subscriber) to locate the genre of music he/she likes and filter through to find songs that appeal to them. They could download and pay for them or program them to listen to on radio or what ever. There are programs available on the net now that offers much the same service, but you have to access it through the net, I'd like to see it accessed through other means like radio or TV, in your car or home. This service could offer several fee structures to choose from, like a very low fee for having access but paying a fee for each song listened to or a higher fee for access with unlimited free listening . Computers would keep track of each song listened to and pay a fraction of a cent to the copyright holders and the record labels and performers. This amount would be deposited electronically into their bank accounts when a certain time passed or when a certain dollar value was reached.

I believe this is doable but it will take a lot of money and imagination to put it in place.

Good idea. I think the biggest problem to overcome would be getting everyone to cooperate. For example, the labels who own the most popular songs would want to be cut in at a higher rate.

Everette,

The problem is indeed getting everybody to agree. for a while there were rock bands that offered their music for free to get people to their shows. There have been bands like the Grateful Dead that encouraged bootlegging of their music because they gained so many fans.

Offline, online, downloads, CD's, live performance, radio, it is all part of an overall stratagy to get attention. In subject matter and direction, production, writers, artists, musicians are just very simply trying to get attention. just like always. some people are going to find one way that works for them and the same thing might not work for the very next guy. But at the end of the day, the important part is making the kind of music you feel comfortable doing, doing it as well as you can, and getting it to people who like your product. We are writing for ourselves first and foremost. That is what matters.

Mike, you can actually talk about any type of music and any market you want to. I enjoy hearing what other people do. I am always trying to be "crystal clear" that I am "Nashville centric" because for 99% of what I am involved with are people trying to come here. But I in no way think Nashville is the center of the universe. It certainly isn't. There are many other communities outside of ours. It is just the main one I know about other than my visits to other places, and for the most part, I am involved with mostly people from other places trying to come here.
But I am the first to acknowledge innovation and when people
succeed where other's fail. and interestingly enough, most of the people who are being successful in places like Nashville are actually the ones that skirt the rules. And then make the rules fit them.

MAB

Marc, I know you well enough to know you do not think this is the center of the musical world. It's simply a hub to which many songwriters gravitate. Folks here come from all sorts of backgrounds with various dreams and goals. To borrow your percentage, 99% of your suggestions are universal. Write the best songs you can, know your audience, look at yourself objectively, etc.

I don't like using the word "rules," even though it is the right word (meaning, in our context, not laws, but a measure of what has been found to be successful). People read it and say, "well I won't follow no rules! Rules? What rules? Who made those rules? I'm a bloody genius!!! Rules are for fools." and etc.
I'm trying to train myself to recommend that folks write "close to the style" of course, people will rankle at that too. It's funny, everyone wants the magic pill that makes a hit song, but when you tell them what it is, they get mad. It's like losing weight or learning to play great guitar. It's simple...just work really hard at it.

I don't believe that a one-size-fits all subscription service is a viable option, both from the consumer and producer perspectives... but I do have high hopes for subscription services like Spotify (www.spotify.com)

I've learnt a great deal from MAB's and Mike's posts. I don't pretend to know the Nashville scene by any means, but now I have an overview when dealing with others.

The annoyance you're seeing, is coming from those that write in a particular genre, and can't understand why this paticular place should be the "gatekeeper". It's the gatekeeper, because it is the music hub of that genre. It is the filtering mechanism in regards to quality, which is defining and pushing foward, that medium.

I ( personally ) find it quite different from what I do, yet, as a musician, know that having great contacts there, I am able to offer a service, if it's required on a "player scale". In other words, if you could go anywhere, on an unlimited budget, hire the best natural players you could, any genre, where would you go ?

I think the problem lies in perception. To a professional music supervisor, I'd have to say "go to Nahville" , they've got the best, from the pickers, to the symphony orchestra, brilliant sound stages, and a techical crew which simply knows the business.

As a songwriter, blow in ? Well, that's a different story, which these fellas will tell you about.

cheers, niteshift

Hi Mike,

Many of Marc's generalizations hold up "anywhere and everywhere", especially "look at yourself objectively"...because with a little self-knowledge, most puzzles are solved ...as in answers to "how hard am I willing to work, or how much am I willing to sacrifice, to achieve my goal" and "if I make no (more) money at music, will I still make it?" When we know these answers, when we know our own hearts, life becomes very simple.

My slant on the "non-financial" parts of this thread is that many people think they have a "ocean of desire" towards a goal, but in many cases, it's just a ripple in a pond...The writer or artist becomes self-realized or actualized NOT with money or recognition, but with self clarification, imo.

BTW Mike Dunbar, say "hi" to Mike Sutcliffe for me...cheers,

Mike

I can't see this being a problem. The rate would have to be set by some government agency, just as mechanical rates are. As far as the majors looking for a higher rate than a novice, I don't see that being a good argument. If they are producing a better product, then it would stand to reason that they would get listened to much more than a novice by a ratio of 1000 to 1, so they are going to make much more money anyway. In the US now the record labels and performers get nothing for airplay, this way they would get paid.

Everett,

Every since the digital revolution really hit, about 12-15 years ago, there have been constant delegations ivolved in Congress trying to do just that. I went with an NSAI delegation in 2006. I know it looks very easy, but it just isn't. There are literally thousands of people involved. From ASCAP, BMI, SESAC, NSAI, record companies, tech companies, lawyers, industry advisors, and above all Congress and the Senate, not to mention overseas trade and restrictions, it is a non-ended litany of copeting interests, conflicts, political ramifications at every corner.
Every time some agreement would be reached, there would be a whole new rash of legal complications and things had to start over again. With elections going on, many times something would be almost agreed on, a new crop of people would come in and that would have to start pretty much over again.
Supposedly there was an agreement reached in October of last year that everyone seemed to be happy with. A new mechanical agreement was reached that pushed the rate from 9 cents to ten cents. I am not privy to the details but I have gotten some industry e-mails that give mixed reviews.It also
has a lot of the database, and payment issues that you are talking about, they are just WAY too deep for me to understand.
I don't know if it will ever be worked out to all satisfaction. Artists, writers, poets, painters, authors, etc. are all just too individualistic to ever allow themselves to be gathered under one umbrella, no matter how good it might be to them. They are too suspicious, too self focused, so you will always get those that don't want to do certain things just because that is what everyone else does. And as you see with downloading, streaming, etc. there are always college students, techno geeks, etc, that spend most of their time hacking into systems,stealing identities, and just plain throwing monkey wrenches in the works to ever totally be safe or regulated.
Sounds like a good idea that you are talking about. But people are people, and it is very difficult to corral this issue.

MAB

People issues aside, there would still be a great many technical hurdles to overcome before such an all encompassing system can become a reality. Also, no one seems to give any thought to the cost of administration...

Suppose that a $5/mo "Download Tax" makes it into legislation, I predict that at least $4.99 will be spent on figuring out who should be paid what. Proponents of a download tax always like to pretend that the division of those moneys will be a simple task, but it is not!

Keeping track of which files are sent across the internet is many magnitudes more complex than keeping track of how many tracks are sold at, say, the iTunes Store. For starters, there is no single spot on the internet where you can monitor all of the ongoing traffic. At best, you can take snapshots of what's going on at certain 'junctions'. Dividing royalties based upon the data from a single snapshot would be the equivalent of predicting traffic conditions across all of the USA by looking only at the situation over at the Brooklyn Bridge in NY.

And that's just the first of many, many technical hurdles that an all encompassing download tax would face...

Hey, Dutch Jim (I hope you don't mind me calling you that!) thanks for posting that link about that Jonathon chap. To me, that shows the new avenues the Internet has opened up to artists performing their own songs, 'cos he's a kind of funny looking fella, and would have maybe found he hard to get a record deal regardless of his talent. He had a plan and he went out and executed it.

You said putting an album on iTunes is a bad plan, and that he hadn't worked for you. I'd say analyze why it didn't work and try it again with a better plan.

I'm still developing my plan, but when I go down the iTunes route, it will be accompanied by many other things. Youtube. etc. And that doesn't mean sticking a video on there and crossing my fingers. It will be putting my best songs on there of course, but others that will get views just because of their titles and tags. Doing some covers as well is something I'll probably do and put them up. But when I say do some covers, I mean do songs where I can, hopefully, do them so well, so originally, that I will "take them" off the original artist and make them my own.

And regarding, what the thread was about in the first place, how to make money out of music these days and the excellent comments by Marc, Everett and yourself I think everyone involved in music now just has to accept there's much less money to be made now, perhaps it was the case there was just too much in the first place. But now people can get things for free, unless they've got a good disposable income, can you blame them? I like to think that the way it will work is if people do get something for free, and like it, they will then want to pay the artist for it. Legislation will not stop things be made available for free on the Internet. If I guy, say, wanted to watch an American TV programme a day after it's aired in America but a week before it has aired in his/her country, then there's places he/she can get hold of it for free on the Internet. They close the websites down, new ones up, it's a battle they, nor the music industry, can win. It can just adapt to it the best way possible.

Maybe, in the future, the only substantial revenues will come from tours and songwriting royalties, so all performing artists will want an ever larger slice of the songwriters credit, whether they deserve it or not, and the futility of the guy sending off songs to music publisher gets ever larger. So, and I say this to everyone, if you can write and perform your own material, you should become the artist and not the songwriter looking for a pitch.

Just my opinion.

Cheers Lucian

No, I said that putting your stuff up on iTunes without investing time and/or money in promotion is a bad plan. iTunes, by itself, is not going to bring people to your music. Unless you manage to get yourself featured on the front page, you'll just be a tiny spec amongst thousands of other tiny specs vying for attention.

For Another Day (my last outing), I spent all my money on the CD itself and nothing on promotion. At the time I still believed that being on a couple of sites and getting a bunch of reviews was enough to sell a bunch of copies, but reality proved to be a bit of a cold shower there.

This time around, I'm not going to make the same mistake again! Plus, I thought I'd give you a chance to skip round #1 and go straight for #2 by telling you that you have to invest in promotion as well as the music itself.

Jim,

And with promotion comes "branding." To really be successful, you need to stake out a brand among the consumers. What is a brand in the music market? It is a mark or marks or some significant thing that make the public associate the musical product with you.

Some examples of branding include: The Boss; the lips and tongue logo; Garth; the symbol of the artist formerly known as...; the King of Rock and Roll; the King of Pop; Sir Paul; Hank; The skull and roses; Hank Jr; the dirty wurlitzer of Supertramp; the Singing Brakeman; the electric 12-string of the Byrds; the OOOOH of Little Richard; or my foot

What makes you sound like you? What makes people remember you? It may not be something you like. Some artists are known for unusual looks, things that may have caused them grief as teenagers turn into distinctive brands as artists, such as Steven Tyler's big mouth, or Dolly Parton's big...talent.

Even the angry artist, or the one who sneers at the idea of "branding" still gets branded by the public. Dylan can be recognized by one name, and by his silhouette. Bono is known by his sunglasses.

Branding is often nothing more than having a distinctive, individual sound, or an unusual name. Lucian. He could become known as "Lucian." Jim, unfortunately, you'll need something other than your name to brand.

Of course, attempting to create a brand is futile unless your music backs it up. The only ticket into the game, the only magic secret, is having exceptional, memorable, excellent songs.

Hey guys,

I don't know if you've seen this, but it's an awesome manifesto for how it's possible to make a living doing music in the new digital age (and by giving it away for free, which I understand some find distasteful, but give it a shot!):

http://newmusicstrategies.com/ebook/

Also of interest may be:

http://sethgodin.typepad.com/
http://newrockstarphilosophy.com/

The first talks about branding and making connections, and the second is about how the industry is changing and what musos can do to keep up.

I personally think this is an incredibly exciting time for musicians. For the first time they don't have to bend to the whims of a label (I've been there - it really isn't pretty). They can make the music that THEY want to make and actually stand a chance of turning that into a living.

Jim mentions Jonathan Coulton (awesome, by the way - Code Monkey is an amazing piece of work). There are others:
www.bradsucks.net
frontalot.com

All these guys are making it happen independently AND by giving their music away for free. It's incredible, and it's not the only creative industry where this is happening. People giving away their primary product for free to generate interest, then making money through different avenues (gigs, merchandise, licensing, special edition CDs, soundtracks).

You're only limited by your imagination! It's a wonderfully liberating time to be involved in music and it's such a thrill to read about people doing new stuff every day.

We're about to see a new renaissance of creative expression as the dinosaurs die and the independents arrive with new and exciting art!

Love it!

At the end of every day it comes back to the very same thing.

Write or be a part of the absolute best music you can. Please yourself first and foremost.

Work to manufacture a unique, presentation of that music that represents you.

Do as much research to avoid other pitfalls that other's have made, as you can do.

Fnd a way to promote it through every single medium you can. Live, internet, videos, word of mouth, etc.

Establish yourself in local, regional, national, and international as best you can.

Repeat the process.

MAB

And, CONNECT WITH PEOPLE!

Really get to know the people that love your music. Let them get to know you.

Get to know your fellow musicians. Support them and they'll support you. Make a scene and make stuff happen.

Get to know other artists. See how you can work together on new projects (live gigs at gallery openings? Huge digital art pieces with crazy music? Music based video games?)

Maybe Harmonix beat us to that last one, but there's always room for more!

And the best thing about this whole thing is that connecting to people is REALLY FUN! People are amazing!

Yeah, absolutely. Though, branding encompasses much more than that. It's the tone of your press releases, the style of photographs you use, the look of your album covers, the clothes you wear, etc.

I definitely think about all those things. In fact, I now have a whole team of people thinking about those things - scary, I know!



I don't market myself as "Jim", but as "Jim Offerman", which I'm hoping is a bit more distinctive

I do not (yet) have as distinctive a trait as Bono's sunglasses, but I am confident that my whole artist persona is quite distinctive. People do not easily confuse me with other artists.



No argument there!