JPF Home Page Forums Southeast US Chapter Message Boards Tampa Chapter Message Board Working musician? Good Luck.

Richard I could definitely hear your music being played on Tampa Bay radio without anyone turning off. Great stuff, thanks for being here. You should come out and do The Eternal Florida Folk and Medicine Show some Wednesday at Jolli Mon's.

I believe Taste in Safety Harbor is one one not in compliance. They do all they can to stay alive let alone pay for entertainment. At least it's an outlet for a songwriter.

Leave it to Grant Peeples to Breath New Life into a thread where some people are afraid to step for fear they may ruin their career in a system thats "All Screwed Up". Mike Worrall, hope you don't mind but I'm gonna have to write a Nashville Tennessee Verse.

Grant Peeples and the Roland Stowne Interview

The Roland Stowne interview with Grant took place over several days in early January. This is the first installment. Roland Stowne is an independent writer and critic living in ....Canada.... with a dog.
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RS: So it’s a new year. Word has it you have a new record in the works.
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GP: Yea, I’m raking songs into a pile right now.
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RS: You’re in the selection process?
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GP: It’s more culling than selecting. Separating wheat from chaff. That kinda thing.
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RS: You want to share any details? Does the record have a name yet?
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GP: “Pawnshop” would appear to be the name of the new record. I was going to call it “The Bush-Madof Economy.” But my friend, Donna Mavity, suggested Pawnshop. I was able to cut the title down to its core meaning and context: “Pawnshop.” Same thing as “The Bush-Madof Economy.” Just less words.
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RS: You sound angry. Still. I figured you’d be happy about the new Presidency.
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GP: Sure, I’m pleased Obama won. But Bush hocked the soul of our country. Sold our blood at that seedy looking plasma place between the porn store and the homeless shelter. Took the money and bought hookers and crack, threw an eight year sleep-over party for all his pals. The question now: Will a 700 billion dollar French kiss give a hard-on to the same economy Bush gave a 7 trillion dollar butt buggering to?
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RS: Aside from your vulgarity, you might be accused of hyperbole here, you know. All that being as it may, will the new record---any of the songs---offer any solutions?
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GP: Are you kidding? Gimme a break. It’s a record, man. I’m just an artist. Any time a work of art offers any ‘solution’ other than pure unadulterated revolution, it’s not a work of art, it’s….I don’t know. What? Toilet paper, maybe?

RS: All of this sounds confrontational, bleak and negative. Don’t people want to hear some songs that aren’t so sad?
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GP: They’re not sad. They’re hopeless.
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RS: Happy, then. Don’t they want to hear some happy songs?
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GP: Sure they want to. Some do, at least. The same ones who were buying properties with adjustable rate mortgages and trying to flip them and make a hundred percent profit. So, I’m not of a mind that they deserve happy songs. And I don’t really care about those people. I can’t relate to them, really. Besides, I try to keep my songs about what is. As it is. Not as it oughtta be. If people want Paxil or Wellbutrin in their ear canals, then they're gonna have to buy somebody else’s record. I got nothing for them. Sorry.
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RS: So---excuse my smile, but: do you think you can make a living doing this?
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GP: Truthfully, I think I’m pissing up a rope. But I don’t have any choice. I got a big mirror in my bathroom that I stare into every morning when I’m checking out the wear and tear. The mirror don’t lie, you know. And I’ve got peers and a small cadre of
fans--- “in the high-one, low-two figures,” as Jack Saunders would say---who would know immediately if I tried to bullshit some songs past the gates.
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RS: The gates? Are you talking about ....Nashville....?
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GP: I'm just talking about what I would see---“who” I would see---in that mirror, if I started painting houses instead of painting pictures of the glass houses I see crashing down around us. But, yea. I go to ....Nashville.... pretty much every month.
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RS: Why? I mean, don’t take this the wrong way, but do you really think you are writing songs for contemporary country radio?
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GP: You’re damn right I do. Just because a song doesn’t sound like something you hear on the radio, that doesn’t mean it doesn’t belong there. And it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t relate to the people who are listening to that radio. I don’t want YOU to take THIS the wrong way, but…....Nashville.... needs me.
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RS: (laughs) You must know that you are sounding….grandiose. Are you not worried about how this is going to read? That you are going to sound full of yourself?
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GP: Grandiose? I drove a thousand miles round trip this week for a $200 gig in ....Miami..... Slept in the back of my Honda Fit. I bought that car because it gets 35 miles to the That’s what I’m doing these days. Grandiose?
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RS: Okay. How about ‘self-important.’?
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GP: What difference does it make? Does any of that negate the truth of what I’m trying to tell you? Look. Taylor Swift sucks. I'd walk naked through the lobby of BMI in my cowboy boots saying that. Hell, LOTS of people know it. But it’s like the King has no clothes. With the noted exception of Jamey Johnson, I haven't heard any ball-clank coming out of ....Nashville.... in decades. Every now and then they cough out a flag-waving-bomb-the-bastards song that keeps them feeling like they’re not a bunch of pussies. But other than that, its insipid piss-water they’re squeezing out of the tube.

RS: You DO know that this interview is going to be read by millions of people.

GP: I can't help that. That’s your gig. Me? I’ve sold less than two thousand records in my career. Bob Marley said: “A hungry man is a dangerous man. The library shelves are full of poetry that doesn’t get read. That ain’t poetry’s fault. That’s the poet’s fault. I accept responsibility for my audience, which is small. But you have to accept responsibility for yours, which is inflated.

RS: I’m not sure where you are really going with all that. Regardless, some will say that with this kind of talk you are burning a bridge.

GP: I like the " scuttle-the-ship " metaphor better. John Conquest has a thing he tags on to every mailing he sends out: “You’re not getting older. The music really does suck.” I mean, have you LISTENED to contemporary country radio lately?
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RS: Yes, but have you seen how that format has grown and developed. Many have seen this as a Big Tent?

RS: What I’ve seen is how the sausage gets made in ....Nashville..... A couple of middle-class, suburbanite, college dweebs who’ve never shot dope or spent a night in jail or had their truck repossessed meet for a ‘writing appointment’ on music row at 10:00 a.m. They show up in Banana Republic dress, with their Blackberries and laptops and their Starbucks Coffee in hand, all ready to write a song. And they do. Invariably the song is about sweet tea and front porches and trains and tractors and a bunch of anachronistic bullshit that they have zero relationship to or with. But then some fuzzy-nut pretty-boy with a pitch corrector and a cowboy hat that hadn’t got any sweat stains on it records the song. And then a bunch people who’ve haven’t breathed through their noses in something like ten years stop sipping coffee out of Styrofoam cups at a focus group in Missouri long enough to all agree that the song sounds just like the [naughty word removed] they’ve been hearing on the radio, and so they give it a thumbs up and the song makes it into the rotation and, eventually, the charts.
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RS: So…you’ve taken it upon yourself to change the model?
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GP: When a snake bites you, what’s the first thing you do?
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RS: What do you mean?
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GP: I mean: What’s the first thing you do?
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RS: How about, seek medical attention.???
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GP: Wrong. First thing you do is you kill the snake. Jack Saunders taught me that.
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RS: You’re just sounding bitter. Not just sounding, but even your body language is
aggressive, agitated. One might wonder if maybe this isn’t a good path for you.
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GP: Bitter? I got lots of character defects, man. But begrudgement ain't one of them. Don’t confuse begrudgement with nausea. A month or so back there was Kid Rock, Jessica Simpson, Jewel and that Hootie the Blowfish guy all in the top 20 of the country music charts. A Big Tent? I don’t think so. ....Nashville....’s a blind hog searching for an acorn.
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RS: And you think you fit the bill? You're that acorn?
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GP: There is no bill to fit, man. They’re clueless. Tom Hutchison got me a meeting with one of the heavies at ASCAP a few months ago. The guy leaned back in his chair and put his sissy pointy-toed shoes up on the desk and said: “Twenty-five years ago we were making music for the guys who were in bars at midnight. Now we’re making music for women who are driving to work at 8:00 in the morning.” That’s such utter bullshit. How do they let that guy keep a job?
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RS: What he said didn’t even raise an eyebrow from you? Didn’t you even scratch your head a little? Think about the market he was talking about.
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GP: The market? Look. The modus operandi of ....Nashville.... is to give people exactly what they liked last month. Just follow that scenario out for a decade or so. See what you got. For years it actually sorta worked because you had people crawling out of corners. People like Waylon and Mickey Newberry and Cash and Hag and Billy Joe Shaver and Gary Stewart. That kept things fresh, made the horizon worth looking at. And there were DJs and program directors that played those guys’ songs because the songs spoke to them. But ....Nashville.... and Clear Channel have got all the rat holes stuffed now. That gives them control over the bland fruit cocktail they’re making. There are no DJs any more. There’s no difference between what they call a DJ and that woman that talks to me on my GPS. “Re-cal-cu-late-ing.” And program directors are just spitting out the bile that focus groups regurgitate. It’s incestuous, and if you look at the eyes and teeth of the babies they’re making, you can tell it. The breeding stock’s gone soft. The mutations are grotesque.
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RS: And you want in? You want in scene that you describe?
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GP: I told you. I just want to help. I’ve got an anti-venom. And the truth is --- I’m a bit positive about the future. If not for me, for the industry.
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RS: And what’s that positive out-look based on?
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GP: The fact that we are probably headed for a world depression. And that the record industry was asleep at the wheel when the internet happened, and so now they are really hurting because of it. Then there’s the fact that Clear Channel is laying off people right and left because revenue is off so much. In other words, all the MBA models are melting in the heat of the kitchen. This is all positive. I wrote a song in the 90s called: “What This Country Needs Is A Good Depression.” Maybe that’s the real summation of what I’m saying.
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RS: Now you are sounding mean-spirited. You have to know that.
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GP: Why do you say that? Can’t you see that I just feel bad for the people who switch on their radios and have to listen Walmart-McDonalds music. I heard this hotshot ....Nashville.... music publisher say a couple of years ago: “If I’m listening to a song, I don’t want to have to turn down the TV and tell the kids to shut up so that I can figure out what the song is about.” That’s the mentality that’s at the switch.
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RS: And your point?
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GP: The point is if I was writing songs like you hear on contemporary country radio, why would I be taking them to ....Nashville....? They’ve got thousands of those songs in catalogs, and thousands more being written every week. That’d be like hauling coal to ....Newcastle..... If I’m going to drive up there and show what I got, it’s gotta be something they ain’t seen or heard. Or what’s the point? When somebody’s drowning you don’t hand them a glass of water.
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RS: Haul coal to ....Newcastle....? Beat your head against the wall? Piss up a rope? Blind hogs searching for acorns. Scuttling ships. You sound like a man in need of a metaphor.
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GP: Well, you got that fucking right. At least.
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Sounding similar, I like the part where he says "if a snake bites you what do you do?"

Peace on and offshore,
Scotty Lee

Please note my responses are in red if you have not figured it out,

Peace on and offshore,
Scotty Lee

"Brian does this enter the equation? or are the screenings completed for our region?"

We don't judge based on where someone lives. That would be as valid as judging based on age or race or religion or hair color. It's simply not a factor of relevence. We got music from over 160 countries are we don't divide it up by country either. We do have some Continental divisions (Asian, South American, European, African) but that's for non English langauge music.

We've talked about having local winners by chapters, but the overall awards are so large and take so long to do, it seems better to focus on those. Many chapters have monthly contests among themselves where the vote on what the best song submitted was. That only works in chapters that have meetings where they play songs and give group critiques. We actually used to do that in Indianapolis for many years. If Tampa wants to start doing that, I am happy to speak with the coordinators if they ask.

Brian

"Supply and demand - too many songs and musicians, not enough customers. Colin"

Colin pretty much said it. If the locals want more locals played, it will take a lot of cooperation to make a compelling case to the local stations. BUT.. and it's a huge one, even if you were able to get the local station to play all your friends music, there are thousands of other local musicians who will STILL be angry because THEIR music isn't played. And the reality is that there isn't enough air time to play a micro fraction of the music that is being made. Supply outweighs demand by an exponential and ever growing number. And it's only getting worse.

Not all types of songs will please a wide audience. Something that you LOVE may well be hated by the next person. Much of the very best music made is only liked by a small number of people. It isn't that the masses are stupid, as many often say when blaming media for what is popular. But it's very difficult to find something that the smallest number of people dislike enough to change the radio station. I worked at the largest most popular major radio station in Indianapolis. When we polled people to see what we should play, we didn't look for what people loved the most, we looked for what people hated the least. That's because radio stations are business, not art promoters. They need people to stay tuned in so their ratings will stay high and they can stay in business. There's no money in playing what people love. There's money, however, in being the station that most often plays stuff that no one hates.

So.. an example.

We poll 10 people about Song A and Song B.

4 people LOVE Song A. 3 people are neutral, they don't love it and they don't hate it and they aren't compelled to change the station. 4 people hate it.

1 person LOVES Song B. 8 people are neutral, they don't love it and they don't hate it and they aren't compelled to change the station. 1 person hates it.

They will ALWAYS play song B and not song A. Song B keeps 90% of the audience. Song A only keepy 70%. It's really that simple.

Big Radio networks spend a LOT of money polling songs to find out what people are least likely to change the stations on. They also learn how long songs need to be and what tempo. All these things are micro managed and the results are very homogenized playlists of music that people neither love nor hate. And that, my friends, is hit radio.

Now if they could find songs that 9 people LOVED and only 1 hated, they would ALWAYS play that more than the one where only 1 person loved it and 8 were neutral. But even if 8 people love it and 2 hate it, it's likely going to be history.

Real life example? When I was at that radio station, the #1 song in the entire country was REM's "Losing My Religion." But the survey's in Indianapolis (which is the 13th largest city in the USA but is a much smaller ranking as a radio market because all the nearby cities are small) came back very negative on the song. Sure, many people LOVED it.. but too many HATED it. So even though we were the largest rated station in the entire state of Indiana, we never played that song during it's run at the top of the chart. Now before you get angry at me, it wasn't my call. At the time I argued and fought but the Program Director in charge refused. And later, when I really LEARNED the BUSINESS of radio, I realized that the PD was correct. We didn't want 20% of them turning the station to the competition when it came on. That was big money out of our pockets and putting our top rating at risk.

Musicians often neither understand nor agree with any of this. And I understand why they feel the way they do because I was right there with them. But radio is a BUSINESS... not an Art advocate. And since that time, things have only gotten more refined and less localized. That same station today doesn't even make their own playlist. It's chosen by someone in another state. At least back then we called local listeners ourselves and made the playlist that was unique to that one station. Ironically, not that it's made elsewhere, that station is WAY back in the ratings today. That Program Director knew exactly what he was doing for his own market. The artist in me hated that but the businessman in me learned and understood very well. Musicians need to learn and understand all these aspects of business very well if they hope to find commercial success. That's because you need to be a BUSINESS person if you want to make a serious living, even locally. Learning the business and working within the realities of it prepare you to approach your career in a sensible and effective way. Raging against the machine and spinning your wheels and leaning against the windmill of truth isn't going to get you far.

To address Al's point. First, I wish Al had stepped up earlier and made his comments. He's correct, but a bit late to the battle. These are all the types of things that should be discussed at Chapter events going forward. It's far more important than anything else that could happen there. If the local members are not moving forward with an understanding of the basic workings of the music business, they can't possibly succeed or improve on their situation in commercial terms. If local members want to improve on local radio, they first need to UNDERSTAND how it all works. If they want to support a great venue that actually PAYS the performers (something that is sadly becoming rare) then rather than giving the person who runs it really bad advice about trying to beat the system by avoiding ANY songs that are registered with a PRO, they should instead be helping her avoid the risk she's putting herself into by following that really bad advice. Instead find a way to make sure she makes enough money to cover the cost of licenses and doing it all legit. Give her the option, by being licensed, to hire the best performers and not worry about what songs they are playing. Why try to beat the system when a single slip up could cause her to put the entire venue at risk of legal action and closure if they can't pay? Bad idea. Learn the business and then help your partners at venues learn how to make money using music to enhance their business and entertain their customers.

Friends shouldn't let their friends wallow in ignorance. When someone says something untrue, the leaders of this chapter and the moderators of this board and the general members who know the truth should quickly step in and correct it. When someone is ranting and raving against a legit company or organization or individual, folks should step up en masse and let them know the truth and you should all be intolerant of those unwilling to accept the truth who continue to mislead and attack. That's simply not acceptable and no one should allow it to happen. It's okay to be wrong, everyone is sometimes. But once the info is there, it's not okay to remain ignorant and belligerent. At least not on this website. If Al is correct and most of the Tampa folks knew this info was untrue, then they should have stepped in right away and corrected it. Hopefully going forward everyone will.

Brian

Richard,

If you think it is stupid you're not alone. Though I would use the word unfortunate. Right now there is no system that would work and be cost effective and honest that could monitor the exact songs that were performed at every venue in the world every night. If you can think of a system that can do it honestly and accurately and not give room for people to cheat the system, then write it down and post it here. I am happy to take realistic suggestions directly to the powers that be. I've even made suggestions myself and posted them in the newsletter. I heard back from all the PRO's about it too. I plan to push my ideas when I am in DC in a couple weeks. But right now, as things stand, there is no solution to do what everyone wants. So you have to pick the best option available and that's what the PRO's have done.

Brian

Scotty,

I just read your responses in Red. It appears you're just not willing to deal with the truth. I'm sorry but it's also clear that there's no much more I can do to help you. You agreed a long time ago to get a book and learn the business side that you still don't seem to have a practical or realistic understanding of. Did you get that book as promised? Are you reading it?

Actually, I think you do understand it, you're just not willing to acknowledge it.

Since Al has stated that he and most of the Tampa members know these things, I will leave it to him to continue to answer your questions.

Good luck,

Brian

Thank You Brian, and yes I can deal with the truth, and I wont drink myself into oblivion over it either, even if a poll in Indiana dictates a Market in the Tampa Bay area. It seems like a very brainwashing way of doing things. I see you are on a panel at the Future of Music Coalition Presents: DC Policy Day 2009. It seems some of the very topics I've reiterated here are going to be talked about. Hopefully, not shimmied over. I'll check your blogs and see what you have planned to bring to the table if they are not there please point me in the right direction.

Peace on and offshore,
Scotty Lee Rexroat

Wow, this is kind of interesting: http://mashable.com/2009/01/25/band-website-displays-copyright-claim-from-its-own-label/

Fascinatin' thread, guys and gals.

I still have a problem. I don't argue that songwriters should get paid. I am one. I like getting paid. I don't argue that if a venue is booking live music, money should go into some kind of pot to compensate the authors whose music is getting played. And I don't argue (though I may grumble about it) that it's difficult to split up that money to get it to the writers whose stuff is actually being performed.

That said, it strikes me as exceedingly unfair how it's being done. The money is being split up according to how many plays a song is getting on commercial radio, which as near as I can tell (prove me wrong, please) is being controlled by the big boys for the benefit of the big boys. Little guys like me may get played on the radio (I have), but it's small stuff--college and independent radio, not the Clear Channel monster that only plays the same twenty songs over and over and over again. And I don't see ASCAP and BMI tracking the small stuff--only the big stuff I can't (and may never be able to) break into.

And if money is being paid theoretically on my behalf and deliberately diverted to someone else, that's a tax, and I don't like it.

I know the PRO license fees are a cost of doing business. If I'm paid entertainment, *I* am a cost of doing business, too. And money spent on the PRO fees that deliberately go to someone else and will never go to me are money that could have been used to pay me more. I would frankly rather see that $600 (or whatever) split up arbitrarily among the original writers who perform their stuff at a venue, rather than get sent off to (among others) the author of "Achy Breaky Heart," which a lot of venue owners would never allow to be played there.

Brian, when I joined BMI, they sent me their rules. I did not and do not see any way those rules can get changed. My "membership" allows me only to participate, as near as I can tell--it does not permit me to even try to change things. That is one reason why I have not "registered" my whole catalog with them. I'm not sure I like the game.

joe

I've thought about it a lot. There's no easy answer. I can't even think of a hard answer. I do wonder what it would cost, per month, for a small coffee shop to be able to feature live music. You said the price of a cup of coffee per day, but the price of coffee varies dramatically depending on where you go!

No, seriously, it'd be good to know.

I have learned a lot from this discussion....it is one thing to read in a book how it works and another to see (or hear about) the system in action.

When you boil it all down, the PRO/songwriter piece of it is working. The writers of the most popular songs make the most money. Those whose songs are not popular, don't make any money....the same as in a hundred other businesses, musical or otherwise.

If there is a fault in the system, it lies not in the PRO part of it, but in the part where songs are selected for radio play or not. It is hard to break into radio because of the oversupply, and, as Brian stated, because the songs are selected for the lowest common denominator (which is pretty darned low IMHO).

It will be interesting to see how the internet affects this in the long run because almost anyone can get their song played on internet radio or some obscure website. Maybe it will flatten out the pyramid and those at the top will receive less and those in the middle will get a bit more. Those of us at the bottom will still earn chump change!

I would rather be at the bottom than no where at all!

Going back to the initial title of the thread.

The changing media of the industry is a puzzle in its own right. Undoubtably deserves its own thread.

The burden of ASCAP/BMI/SESAC licensing is on the venue.

Perhaps the real nut to crack is focusing on how to achieve the next level of advancement in the music career.

Start by truthfully defining and realizing where you are now.

In every industry, there is a career ladder, and a recognized work ethic of those sincerely approaching the industry with a resolve to advance.

There is an industry, in every industry, created for the sole purpose of guiding one through the industry.

Sounds like talking in circles?

It is, and that is how the "help" industry perpetuates itself.

There are also industries in the music business that cater to the hobbyist, and will happily keep you there, in the role of a hobbyist, buying the stuff you feel you need, and that they guide you towards, to keep your dream alive.

Even a serious hobbyist is still a hobbyist, and not a professional.

If you are a dedicated hobbyist, do you have entitlement to the professional career ladder?

Live performance is where the largest, and most accessible opportunity and potential to make a few bucks exists, and is the ground work needed to get a foot on the rung of the professional career ladder.

The artist's role is to prepare and present an entertainment act, that is of value to the venue.

The value is determined by the expected increase in revenue the venue can expect, based on past performance by the entertainment act.

This is so basic, yet so often overlooked.

The trouble with artists at the "hobbyist" rung of the ladder in general, is the work put into the huff and puff and fluff being a distraction the basic principals of doing business.

The pros approach it as a business, as do the venues.

Start there, and see if your perception of "Working Musician" might begin to evolve.

I'm with you, Jerry! I do this for fun. I'm definitely not stealing gigs from career musicians... no career musician would ever play the places I play, unless they were doing the owner a huge favor...

Although hobbyist or not, I wish even small coffeeshop owners would know how important music is to their venue- and therefore budget for it in their business plan. I would think they would lose more money in a completely silent venue (no radio or CD even- you have to pay to have those on too) vs hiring a musician for the night.
I look at it this way- pro or not, if someone hires a plumber...and the job is in a terrible neighborhood where most pro plumbers don't really want to go...and he tells the slumlord that he isn't a full time plumber (but he is actually quite good), so he'll work for gas money...I think it not only devalues his work but the work of the other plumbers out there. What's wrong with going out and doing work for little to nothing if you are having fun, right?
I don't think it is about stealing gigs at all, but about keeping the relative value of the work perfomed high in the eyes of the musicians and the venue.

If you consider playing music to be a trade, it is one of the only ones where people are not bashful about asking for some free work. Who would ask their mechanic or nurse to come out and fix their car or change their diaper in exchange for a cup of coffee?

I think some of the club owners think they are doing us a favor by letting us play there when actually we are doing them a favor with the live music.
Some places won't even pay the PRO fees let alone pay musicians.
A real bucket of manure!

Depends on the job. I do computer work for a living, and everyone and their brother that I know expects me to come and fix their computer issues for them for free. I don't, of course. Unless I honestly like them.

Steve said it best. It's about the venue and the artist. If you put together an act that can draw a crowd, you can command pay for that. Some venues will have a crowd whether an act is there or not. Some venues will have no crowd unless someone is there, so they expect the artist to bring their "following."

The hobbyist vs. pro discussion is a slippery slope. I'm definitely a hobbyist. I can go to my local coffee shop and set up and play for two hours, to a small group of folks, and put a little money in my pocket, and I like that. The place may not be paying me much, but they're also not making a ton of money from their small crowd. A Pro can get mad at me, because I'm not asking for more money, but this is a free country and I'm doing what I want to do, at this point in time, and I'm not undercutting the other artists who play at the same little place.

But if I were to go to some of the places that pay decent wages and offer to start playing there for free, undercutting the other artists who play there... well, to me, that's wrong and I wouldn't do it.

Richard, You may consider yourself a hobbiest but in my opinion your original material, and delivery of that material is really impressive. Please don't be one of these (guys or gals) who gets hit by a bus one day with 200 songs under the bed. That goes for everyone here if you have good material get it coppywritten and get it out there to publishers.
On that note I just decided to host an interim meeting sometime between our February and March showcases and we're gonna discuss this PRO issue and find out who's doing what and where. And there will be no ranting, no personal agendas just good constructive dialog.
Keep Strummin' Al

Great idea AL!