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Joined: Nov 2008
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Originally Posted by Brian Austin Whitney
Scotty Lee,


Scotty Lee: I can't play them at my own promoted shows and solicit advertisers wherever I choose for whatever fee I decide is fair and equitable including broadcast outlets unless they are paying the PRO's for licensing fees?

You can play them any and everywhere without concern. It's not YOUR job or RESPONSIBILITY to know if someone obeyed the law and paid their license fee. But it IS the responsibility of the venue where you perform that music for others to pay the license fee. So as a performer, you can do Bob Dylan songs or your own. If both are licensed by a PRO, they have the same requirements to the VENUE, but none to the performer. If you play it at home or at a private event, it usually doesn't require a license, though if you gave regular house concerts there is some debate. I believe all of the PRO's can offer info on what venues must pay or not. Last I heard house concerts were exempt. But check with the PRO's if you're going to host one for sure.


Brian


Brian, thanks for being so patient, Sorry to trouble you one more time. My question above should read I can't play my own songs which are copyrighted by me, but not licensed by the PRO's, and promote and solicit advertisers where ever I choose I was not asking about covers by Bob Dylan or anyone elses at all. Your answer sounds confusing to me.

Case Scenario, A local Brewery in the Tampa Bay Area wants to sponsor me along with several other businesses. They have no plans to establish markets out side of the region. They say Scotty we would like to sponsor you because we think your songs and image represent the product we're trying to sell. Could we use your song on our website and pay you to make a banner with our business logo and names on it. We also want to pay you to play at establishments selling our product, They don't have entertainment at any other time so they don't pay the PRO's. How much will it cost? I come up with a fee, they pay me the money and only the Taxman gets a cut of the rest. Oh yeah they also want me to put their ad on my website and there is where my song samples are played and CD's are sold.

Can it be negotiated without Harry Fox and The PRO's?

Thanks Brian answer this one and I'll get the book.

Last edited by Treble Hook; 01/21/09 12:36 AM.


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There's not really a question in the Scotty. Can WHAT be negotiated? If you aren't already a member of a PRO, then there's nothing to negotiate. If someone has YOU play and you never play anything other than YOUR music and you are not registered with a PRO, then there's no issue. My point was that a venue who books various artists throughout a year can almost never make sure that they never play a song that is registered with a PRO. One slip up and they are on the hook for all fees at the max rate and they have no recourse but to pay if challenged.

In this specific scenario, as you describe it, there's no involvement by a PRO because you're not a member of one and your music (assuming you haven't co-written with someone who IS a member of a PRO) has no licensing issues.

Harry Fox only collects on copies of music made by someone other than the songwriter. In your case, you'd be releasing your own music, so there's no one to pay. If you had co-written a song with another songwriter, then you'd have to pay them their share of the mechanical fees for each copy. This has NOTHING to do with a PRO. They have no connection. Harry Fox exists to collect and dispurse mechanical royalties to songwriters whose songs have been recorded by someone else. PRO's (ASCAP, BMI, SESAC) exist to pay royalties to songwriters whose songs have been performed to the public via recording or live in some venue. They are two completely different and unrelated things.

This is why you desperately need to educate yourself on how the business works. John's book is a good starting point from the songwriter point of view. I think Jason Blume has another book about the wider music industry that is also worth checking out. And we have many other options, but all of them will teach you a great deal about how things actually work so that you can conduct your music career with facts and truths and not rumors and bad information. No one can conduct good business if you have no idea how the business you're in works. At best you can muddle away inefficiently in the dark.

In the time we've collectively spent on this long set of posts most of you could have read a good chunk of John's book. If you can't afford to buy a copy, most libraries have it for free. I think you can buy a copy from John's site directly and think he'd make a little more money from a direct sell, so go that way if possible. www.johnbraheny.com You can also get additional help from John there. Tell him I sent you. I don't get a commission or anything, I just want him to know we appreciate his long career of work to help the songwriting community. Without guys like John Braheny, there would probably be no JPF to follow in his footsteps.

Brian


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"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

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"That's why it's so ironic, and frankly offensive, when veues complain about their music licensing fees."

It's clear that I've offended you and I really, honestly, did not intend to.

I'm fumbling with myself and my thoughts here because I really want to try to re-express my concerns since I'm feeling a little misunderstood, but am also keenly aware that it's not really going to make a difference. I guess I'm just an old hippy at heart, so all this talk of litigious ramifications and dire consequence for the sake of a songwriter to sing his(her) song is raising my blood pressure a bit. smile So, in the interest of not belaboring the issue, I'll concede and simply say thank you for taking the time to respond to me.





Okay...maybe I can't. I *have* to say this....

For what it's worth, in an economy that is as depressed as it is, with our competing coffee houses shutting down right and left around us, the Bunker paid over $15,000 last year to the *songwriters* that played at our venue.

I'm going to keep the sadder knowledge about our profits in comparison to myself, but, in case any of you think of us now as the cold hearted place that won't pay thousands of dollars to multiple organizations so that they, in turn, WON'T pay the songwriters who play here because "they're not enough to show up on a survey"... please don't. We try, REALLY hard, to be a place that fosters local musicians. And in all honesty, we simply can not afford to pay more for those yearly licenses. We would LOVE to. We just can't.

So now I just don't know what to do.

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Originally Posted by Jak Kelly
Yes, I do all original music.And all of it is published.
but the catch 22 may be that the club has to buy the licences so I can play MY songs .
Just a thought. Maybe Brian can fill us in on this conundrum.


Well the answer has been defined. Thank you Brian. It is too bad. This is a case where it is not a benefit for an artist to have there music licensed via the PRO's. I would bet money too, a venue wanting to have live original music could have a contract with the original artists performing there as to not include any licensed material and the responsibility would become the performers. They can play their own and any public domain songs as long as their music isn't licensed by the PRO's. Roger McGuinn has a website set up with over 100 public domain songs. You'd be surprised. Sloop John B., Midnite Special, just do a search check it out. So here is how it works. Your not a member of a PRO's you can perform your own material at Jessies place and she does not need a license and if your of the caliber songwriters we have in the Tampa Bay you wont have to play a cover and you can give her a guarantee. The reason I was concerned is I was hoping to promote a show with artists like Jak Kelly (Jak Kelly puts on one hell uva show) team him up with a couple of other original songwriters from around the Tampa Bay Area and bring it to select venues not licensed because they normally do not provide entertainment. Give the show a name, find sponsors just like a little league baseball team, create a banner with the show name on it and advertisers logo, charge a ticket price, say $15. and fill a room seating 40-70 people. I can't use Jak and that is a damn shame. Here's how it would work. A Podcast could be created and posted on a site like Mellow Melodies of the artists songs who will be performing and a sampler CD could be given along with the ticket purchased. (The Catch 22 here is if Mellow Melodies is playing any licensed music she is not in compliance with the current Laws and if she accepts any money for what she is doing she has to pay Harry Fox and that is a Damn Shame) The show would be promoted on table tents at the venue with a Poster on the door. It could be advertised in a communities paper like the Suncoast News. Potential audience could get a listen to the music, and decide if it was something they would enjoy. I'm sure they would. Premium entertainment without the $100 dollar price tag. An example of a viable venue is hosting one of those Murder Mystery Plays. The price is $25 and includes dinner and a drink and is scheduled a month in advance. I asked the manager how the sales are going and they tell me it will be sold out. It got my wheels turning as a good way to promote and put songwriters in the Tampa Bay area into a decent paying Gig. I can't use Jak Kelly and that is a crying shame. Do the Math, $15 X $70 = $1050 + any local advertisers who would want to be promoted for a fee on the banner, website, and any paper ads, in the hopes to cover the cost of promotional material. Now the word gets out, and you get some other artists who find a couple of venues in their neck of the woods and have a top performer like Jak headlining the show and you start rotating monthly dates at several venues you could be working every Saturday a month making a premium dollar for your efforts unlike what the PRO's licensed clubs are giving artists even of Jak's stature. Kraig Kenning who was the featured performer at The Eternal Florida Music is Medicine Show last week hit the nail on the head, you have to get the Public to Pay for the entertainment not the venue. You will also have a captivated audience unlike what you sometimes get in a traditional Bar Gig playing Jimmy Buffet and Eagles covers. And you know what I would call somebody representing the PRO's trying to shut it down? You would think a show like this the Artists themselves could pay an annual licensing fee and play anyones material they choose. Just food for thought! I wonder if there is a way to unlicense your music?

Peace On and Offshore,
Scotty Lee

Peace on and offshore,
Scotty Lee

Last edited by Treble Hook; 01/21/09 02:56 PM.


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Originally Posted by Brian Austin Whitney
Can WHAT be negotiated? If you aren't already a member of a PRO, then there's nothing to negotiate.
Brian


There is something to negotiate, I'm using my music and image to represent businesses in a local region without licensing my music through the PRO's and charging a fee for it. Florida has always been a right to work State. It is part of what I do for living or could be completely what I do for living.



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Scotty, that sounds like SUCH a fun idea. smile

Okay. Moving forward. 2009 is the year of Change, Hope, and unlikely underdogs pushing on despite all odds. I shouldn't have gone where I did in my post about financial reality in this economy. Yes, we're a little place, but we've got a big heart and we can DO this.

YES WE CAN! smile

So! Fostering local, independent musicians. That's what we do, right? How can we keep doing it? How can you as a songwriter (and *I*...once I get over my stage freight & learn to play a guitar) continue to profit from having a venue that really cherishes local music and will pay for it?

If we only book artists that are not affiliated with ASCAP, BMI and Sesac and must sign a document listing all the songs they will play and confirming that they do, indeed, own the rights to play them...then we can keep on keepin' on. Right?

Because if that's all it takes, then I am READY to be watch dog and really, REALLY enforce the rules. And I think people "get" us... they GET that we don't *want* to hear covers. We *want* to hear original, independent, quirky thoughts. We *want* to be a place you can go to to hear something you can't hear anywhere else. We want to be an incubator for budding songwriters, and a lifelong friend of longtime songwriters.

And, if a songwriter takes him or herself seriously enough to really ride the music industry bull, then they can hop on the BMI/ASCAP/Sesac bus and carry on. We'll give 'em a big wet kiss and wish them the most awesome luck. And then we'll turn to the next crop of new talent that need a place that will support them as they grow their musical careers.

So. That's what we'll do. All in favor, say "aye."

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First of all, I'd really like to know exactly what the fee the PRO's are asking you to pay? If you're a small coffee shop, those license fees generally run around 600 dollars give or take. That's less than 2 dollars a day or the price of a cup of coffee at most coffee shops these days. (I have no idea what you charge for food and drinks but I spent a lot of time touring the USA and doing shows in all types of venues). If the artist performing doesn't bring in an additional 2 dollars per day on average to cover the cost of the license, then you are booking the wrong artists. It's really that simple.

In the case of this situation, remember, one single slip up and you owe the entire year's license fee. It is impossible for you to book artists all year and not have a single one make that mistake. I've seen venues TRY that tactic and fail. It also means that you can only book amateurs. If someone isn't even affiliated with a PRO, that means that are not commercially viable and will never earn money from their music via radio play, internet radio play or live performance. It also means they can NEVER play a song written by a professional writer who is registered with a PRO. It also means they can never perform a song that have co-written with someone in a PRO. And how exactly are you going to KNOW who wrote the songs that they performed Jessie? Why even take the risk?

Either you're in business to present live music or you aren't. This half pregnant approach will fail when the baby inevitably comes. Why not go the other direction and pay the license fees and hire OUTSTANDING PRO artists who play the best songs from all sources including their own? That way you give a much higher level of entertainment to your customers and you're supporting the songwriting community. Did you know that ASCAP has a program where their members who perform out regularly can apply for money even when they don't show up on airplay results? It's called ASCAP Plus. I know many artists who make a few hundred to a few thousand dollars EVERY SINGLE YEAR from that program by simply showing where and when they did gigs playing their own songs and showing, when available, times and dates and stations where their music was played on the radio.

Can you find some people to perform that are amateurs and have no interest in making a full time living from music that are good enough to make it work? Sure. But one slip up and you put everything at risk. And remember, the PRO's have never lost a lawsuit. And if they can prove even a single infringement, you have to pay the fees plus lawyer fees and possibly other penalties if you try and fight it.

It seems you don't like the very program created by venue owners and radio stations who wanted to pay as little as possible for using music as much as they wanted? You really have it all backwards. This is your great chance to get fantastic entertainment for your customers for a dirt cheap price as often as you want. This isn't some shady mysterious issue. It's simply business 101. You take the amount of the license fee, you consider how much extra money you make when you have live music and you determine if live music makes you more money or less? In most cases, live music makes a venue, when they do it right and hire the right performers, a LOT more money than it costs to pay for licenses and do it all above board and legally. It also allows those artists you love to join a PRO and work towards becoming serious artists/writers who can pursue either a part time or full time living from their music. That's what everyone should want right? Everyone wins.

The time and effort you'll spend tring to get around the system that is already in your favor to start with will cost FAR more than just paying it upfront.

But it's your gig. At least now you've learned how it works. And it's great that you've paid the PERFORMERS who play at your venue. Why are you so unwilling to use a little of that money to pay the songwriters as well? You act like you're being cheated but it's really the other way around. You see the value in paying the musicians, but not the writers... sure.. some do both.. that's great. But someone on this very post already admitted that he played a cover in your venue. The cat is already out of the bag. I see so many venues try to trick the system and it nearly always fails. If not right away, eventually. And them when the s*it hits the fan, they are shocked about it. Don't be. Be professional. Have a business plan and make sure that YOU are making enough profit to stay in business. Pay your cable bill and your light bill and your food wholesale bill and your taxes and your license fees. Everyone will win if you stay in business. Even if it means paying the performing artists a little less so the songwriters get paid, so be it.

Brian


Brian Austin Whitney
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Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@gmail.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney
Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

"It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..." -Brian Austin Whitney

"Sometimes all you have to do to inspire humans to greatness is to give them a reason and opportunity to do something great." -Brian Austin Whitney
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Originally Posted by Jessie


So! Fostering local, independent musicians. That's what we do, right? How can we keep doing it? How can you as a songwriter (and *I*...once I get over my stage freight & learn to play a guitar) continue to profit from having a venue that really cherishes local music and will pay for it?

If we only book artists that are not affiliated with ASCAP, BMI and Sesac and must sign a document listing all the songs they will play and confirming that they do, indeed, own the rights to play them...then we can keep on keepin' on. Right?

So. That's what we'll do. All in favor, say "aye."


Lets set a show date for a Saturday, choose 3 unlicensed songwriters, put the promotional material together, and get it on the doors and tables at your venue at least a month in advance so you can start selling tickets there. We'll do a description of what it is all about for patrons to read. Send a personal invitation to the PRO's with a songlist so they can see for themselves we are in compliance. We need to define the Artists first. Any supporting artists will have to make sure they don't comp Chuck Berry Licks to a tee and we should be okay. We can broadcast it Live over the internet in case Harry Fox can't make it and we'll exclusively promote your establishment unless we can get some Free Trade Coffee vendor who wants to sponsor, and a document will be provided for analysis and stored on a server for the Whirlled Wide Web to see at their leisure. One C note sang just like Britney Spears could shut the whole thing down, but chances of it happening? none. How many songwriters on the Tampa Bay Area board here are unlicensed? Good place to start just let us know. I think if we can find a top notch performer to do a set of Public Domain songs would be a great addition. So you can have licensed music and play only Public Domain. It would be a nice place to start. I believe Bobby Hicks has some public domain songs? Woody Guthrie? Any suggestions from the board here?

Last edited by Treble Hook; 01/21/09 04:03 PM.


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Okay, now we're getting somewhere. This:

Originally Posted by Brian Austin Whitney
Did you know that ASCAP has a program where their members who perform out regularly can apply for money even when they don't show up on airplay results? It's called ASCAP Plus. I know many artists who make a few hundred to a few thousand dollars EVERY SINGLE YEAR from that program by simply showing where and when they did gigs playing their own songs and showing, when available, times and dates and stations where their music was played on the radio.


...changes EVERYTHING. My entire resistance and resentment to paying it, other affordability, is that NO one I've spoken with previously about the matter, from the BMI rep, to other musicians, to you, could say how our $ benefited THE. SONGWRITER.

And, semantics of "songwriter" verses "artist" aside, (since now I know that my choice of the word "artist" was irresponsible and what I really meant is "songwriter") our show is called "SONGWRITER'S Night." It's all about the WRITER. And my sense of injustice gets pricked when I think that we'll pay money that will go to someone that does not deserve it, ie: music industry giants, and NOT the person that pours their soul into their work.

I've said it previously, I don't have any problem with these organizations, but I need to know that it's actually *benefiting* the little guy. And I know that you have repeatedly stated that that should not be my concern and that I have no business caring about it, but saying that doesn't make it true. I'm not just a person that books acts. I'm a songwriter. My father's a songwriter. I flippin' care. So THANK YOU for getting to the meat and potatoes for me. Musicians CAN recoup the money. There! That's it! That's the golden egg that makes me happy.

THANK you.

See?

I'm easy. smile


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I checked out your homepage Kristy. You have an ample supply of songwriter/musicians that perform at your venue. Very impressive.

Best, John

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Jessie, perhaps not "aye"...how 'bout "AMEN"?

It's been an interesting thread. My perspective is that of someone who has no desire to be a part of the "music business". I love to write and create and share that creativity with others of like-mind, but I'm, quite fortunately, not dependent upon those endeavors for my livelihood. I don't doubt that I'd have quite a different perspective if I was still trying to make a living playing and writing songs.

I'm as happy swapping songs with other writers in my living room as I am performing in public. I'm also pretty happy thumbing my nose at the establishment. And that can be the political, religious, corporate, or music biz establishment. Guess I'm an equal opportunity iconoclast.

Anyway, I'll defer the remainder of this discussion to the movers & shakers, head back to the periphery, and just climb out now and again to play a few tunes at The Bunker.


Mike

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Originally Posted by Johnny-Boy
I checked out your homepage Kristy. You have an ample supply of songwriter/musicians that perform at your venue. Very impressive.


Since I'm, well, the only girl in this thread ( smile ) I'm going to assume you're talking to me. smile THANKS! Hope to see you out sometime.

Originally Posted by Mike Worrall
Jessie, perhaps not "aye"...how 'bout "AMEN"?
......
Anyway, I'll defer the remainder of this discussion to the movers & shakers, head back to the periphery, and just climb out now and again to play a few tunes at The Bunker.


AMEN, Brotha Mike! And we'll be happy to see you!! BUT DON'T PLAY ANY FLIPPIN' COVERS!!!!!!!! heh heh heh heh heheheheheheh...

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These organizations were not formed to collect money for the little guy they were formed to collect money for the big guys. (Excuse me Little Guys = Songwriters that play their own music.) Because the big guys have money and are connected their lawyers were able to get laws passed that allowed them to exhort money from venues where little guys play.

Little guys have been lead down a path to the belief that if they gave the organizations money it would make them professionals and they then could relish in the exhortion. These lawyers are are just another Guido. Because something that is unfair and unjust has been made law we have no recourse and must pay the exhortion or change the law. Their are spys everywhere watching and listening to us (with snot running down their nose) waiting to make their next buck. My advise is to pay the fees join the PROs and admit that what Brian hails is that you are trapped no matter which way you turn their lawyers have covered the bases and intend to take your dues and the fees and divide it among themselves. This is not the only time laws have been used to exhort or control the little guys labor its been going on a long time. Playing a cover in an unlicensed venue is illegal. If it should or should not be that way is not the question the ones with the money made it illegal and that is that. We are still working for the Pharaohs. Now we can say there are three things in life we can count on Taxes, Death, and The PROs.
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Originally Posted by Brian Austin Whitney

But it's your gig. At least now you've learned how it works. And it's great that you've paid the PERFORMERS who play at your venue. Why are you so unwilling to use a little of that money to pay the songwriters as well? You act like you're being cheated but it's really the other way around. You see the value in paying the musicians, but not the writers... sure.. some do both.. that's great. But someone on this very post already admitted that he played a cover in your venue. The cat is already out of the bag. I see so many venues try to trick the system and it nearly always fails. If not right away, eventually. And them when the s*it hits the fan, they are shocked about it. Don't be. Be professional. Have a business plan and make sure that YOU are making enough profit to stay in business. Pay your cable bill and your light bill and your food wholesale bill and your taxes and your license fees. Everyone will win if you stay in business. Even if it means paying the performing artists a little less so the songwriters get paid, so be it.

Brian
The biggest complaint here is artists not getting paid enough........


The whole idea really is Brian, how do you get the commercial radio stations to tap into the local market. If they see there are quality songwriters and groups playing out in the community garnering advertising dollars and businesses see it as a way to get their name out there and start using it, you can bet the local commercial stations will tap into it. Now if we were to start getting played on the local airwaves playlist as frequently as the status quo, and the 2,700,000 potential ears begin to hear our music exclusively on a regular basis they will come out to the shows, We will see more of the advertising dollars we don't see now, and more venues will license themselves, and the public will attend more performances by the locals rather than spend a $100 on a high dollar ticket to see some foreign act depriving the local artist and venues an opportunity to thrive. The Community benefits because these dollars will be staying right here in there local community. Listen to the Playlist on www.musictampabay.com for a couple of 24 hours and tell me the majority of what you hear there wouldn't be a great playlist for a Clear Channel radio station. Is it the fault of the PRO's no. And believe me Brian there are great players of all genres here who deserve and need to be heard by a larger audience. Hopefully Wide band wireless will open these doors and the establishments wont complain about paying the PRO's. Nobody is going to come out to hear you play if they haven't heard you. Yes I agree it does help when an artist promotes themselves, but not as much as day in and day out airplay. There are thousand of people here who spend a $100 to see a international touring act only because they have heard them and they don't have the time or desire to frequent the bars and night clubs to discover or get access to the music not being heard elsewhere. The majority of the money leaves the local economy and is flown elsewhere so they can figure out a way not to have to pay taxes on it. For a $100 dollars they can bring their friends or family out for drinks and dinner building support for some challenged business to get in the game. I challenge you to come to the Tampa Bay Area and try to earn a decent living, including Insurance, and other costs performing anybodies material. It is all about fair trade and I can't believe you don't see it. Networking with the publishers and music mecca's elsewhere takes time and travel. Personally I think we have the talent to make it better here without the hoopla of the national or international attention.



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Oops! Sorry Jessie! I just reviewed something of Krisy's and the name stuck in my head.

John

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I guess you could always have a benefit to pay the fees, so you don't have to worry about it anymore. I don't think it is possible to reliably find good songwriters that don't belong to PROs, since as a songwriter, it offers so many benefits (hey, I get health and dental!).
I think it is too much to risk it, or at the very least, clearing all the performers- another venue which regularly pays might be an option as well- if they have music on the weekends, or play the radio, chances are they pay the PRO fees.

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As a veteran open mike goer in a large city...and I will risk the wrath of those excited about the no PRO shows...Even if you guys try...I predict that using ONLY non-pro members, playing ONLY non-pro songs...that the quality of those shows and songs will fall FAR short to keep your idea going for long...sry...just being realistic...your friends will come out twice or three times a year to hear you...the other people? You are competing with internet, TV, movies, games, sports, sex, drugs..and in a remote control world where people just click to the NEXT thing when they are bored for one second? People hardly can sit through shows by people that are AMAZING...and you're going to pull this off with complete amateurs doing only their own material? Sry boys...it ain't gonna work...PLEASE don't hate me for saying it...it would've been easier to say nothing ! ! BUT as JPFers, aren't we in this all together?


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Originally Posted by Herbie Gaines
As a veteran open mike goer in a large city...and I will risk the wrath of those excited about the no PRO shows...Even if you guys try...I predict that using ONLY non-pro members, playing ONLY non-pro songs...that the quality of those shows and songs will fall FAR short to keep your idea going for long...sry...just being realistic...your friends will come out twice or three times a year to hear you...the other people? You are competing with internet, TV, movies, games, sports, sex, drugs..and in a remote control world where people just click to the NEXT thing when they are bored for one second? People hardly can sit through shows by people that are AMAZING...and you're going to pull this off with complete amateurs doing only their own material? Sry boys...it ain't gonna work...PLEASE don't hate me for saying it...it would've been easier to say nothing ! ! BUT as JPFers, aren't we in this all together?
The world is full of negative nay sayers and you have definitely underestimated the inteligence of a real American audience. It will pull communities closer together. It's what the world needs more of. I wonder why you haven't even touched on the real the real points. Basically your saying other songwriters are not as good as you. I know not everyone is a top notch performer, but give 'em a chance to put on a real show and get paid a decent cut they'll tighten it up. Look at what comes through American Idol. Personally I don't want to be the one of million who pays to have my music critiqued by supposedly industry pros in the hopes of having my song put on an american idol record. I've heard brilliant songs by not the greatest musicians in the world. Good thing Bob Dylan didn't listen to the critics. But for you Steve I hope you hit the pot of Gold with your material. I'm going to go check it out and if you want I'll tell you how great you are and won't even charge you. The biggest point here Steve is [b]are you getting major play on the radio's in Chicago? Do you think you should be? if so Why are you not? We have amazing players take The Tampa Bay Fingerstyle Guitar Guild for instance, and people do pay big money to see and sit through shows of major artists everyday of the week who are amazing players, I've heard it all. Where is the song in your heart? If you cant answer the questions in bold I'll have to take your opinions like a grain of Florida Myakka Sand.

Peace on and offshore,
Scotty Lee

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Commercial radio stations are owned by just a few companies and generally feature easily catagorized music filtered through big bucks- sadly this is why great fingerstyle guitarists & great local songwriters (not to mention the weirdo stuff I do) are never heard on commercial radio- I don't think there is anyone here who can compete with the kind of money it takes to get on a Billboard chart, much less get the ears of a commercial Tampa station who has a playlist down to the millisecond sent to them from someone in Indiana.
BTW, I am all for giving anyone a chance to play and get paid at a booked gig- however, as a writer of music, it really isn't my concern if the venue has paid PRO fees- I actually assume they did, since they are featuring live music, and that is part of what it costs.

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Basically your saying other songwriters are not as good as you.
----------------------------------------------------------------
I am not sure what words you read, Scotty Lee, but they weren't mine...I simply said that amateur writers who have never been published (myself included in this group) will have a very hard go of it trying to entertain a coffeshop (no alchohol) group, on a consistent basis to have them come back, and come back with others on strictly their own material (heck, even Janis Ian, a brilliant songwriter who can capture and silence the crowd, AND has a 35 + yr history in song)...did a cover in her show)...I was not nay-saying...just being realistic...listen, NOTHING I'd like better than for you to prove me wrong :-)


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Originally Posted by Herbie Gaines
Basically your saying other songwriters are not as good as you.
----------------------------------------------------------------
NOTHING I'd like better than for you to prove me wrong :-)


I probably jumped to hard at your statement and I apologize. I guess I was hoping you would say here how we can prove the system as it exists is broke for many and how can we make it happen. You have some dynamic material and as you said it is hard to keep the attention with your thought provoking material of an audience for a entire 2.5 to 3 hour evening without playing a cover, but combined with the right group of other entertainers you could add a great deal to round out an exciting evening of laughter, original music, and audience without doing a cover. People are doing it all the time at house concerts. No advertisers involved. If you look at the whole picture of what I am describing here, and I have said a lot, you can see how a community based form of PRO could be a benefit without having to be internationally known. Then you would agree if you could be performing every Saturday night and putting 200 dollars in your pocket for a 1/2 hour set of your music with other artists of varying styles in a show to help themselves and help a business sustain itself and employees you would do it with out playing a single licensed song?



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Everyone wants to help the little guy make it. Everyone may have ideas as to how to help this little guy. Under the system we have with the PROs the little guy has little help. There is no reason to be satisfied with the existing status quo. The problem that I see is that the existing status quo is restricting efforts that could be made at a local level. I believe that the only way to go about correcting the system is on a local level similar to the direction Scotty is pointing. A national effort to change the way the system works puts the little guy against the Giants. Which would only result in little or no help for the little guy. The help for the little guy has to come from the local to state level. Tampa and Florida is an excellent ground for this. I think everyone wants the same result, we have different views in how to achieve the result. I for one like Scotty's local approach.

One thing we can all agree on is JPF is a tool that can help the local effort work and it provides a platform for national change. If not for JPF this discussion would be in the back of a bar on Dale Mabry Hwy.
papos

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Even in the so called other business world little guys get little if any help.
Little guys go to prison for a number of bad business decisions or loose their businesses, the big guys get bailed out.
There are a lot of local businesses closing because they can't make it in the current economy.
A sad,sick reality!
Brian Austin Whitney is right on the way that the current PRO's work.
If we are not happy with the current system then we have to try to change it.
A thousand screamers will be heard over the mouse in the corner.




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Originally Posted by Jessie
Okay, now we're getting somewhere. This:

Originally Posted by Brian Austin Whitney
Did you know that ASCAP has a program where their members who perform out regularly can apply for money even when they don't show up on airplay results? It's called ASCAP Plus. I know many artists who make a few hundred to a few thousand dollars EVERY SINGLE YEAR from that program by simply showing where and when they did gigs playing their own songs and showing, when available, times and dates and stations where their music was played on the radio.


...changes EVERYTHING. My entire resistance and resentment to paying it, other affordability, is that NO one I've spoken with previously about the matter, from the BMI rep, to other musicians, to you, could say how our $ benefited THE. SONGWRITER.


Here I guess it would pay to be a member of ASCAP., but what about BMI, and SESAC. do they have a Plus system of payment.



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Sorry.. but I can't allow the ignorance to go unchecked. I couldn't care less if you all HATE the PROs and wish them dead.. BUT.. I will not knowingly allow patently false info and ideas to be posted about them without the truth being told. I don't care if I convince those who make these statements, I only care about our members who want the truth and a reality check.

So.. that said... Papos.. enough is enough.
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"These organizations were not formed to collect money for the little guy they were formed to collect money for the big guys. (Excuse me Little Guys = Songwriters that play their own music.) Because the big guys have money and are connected their lawyers were able to get laws passed that allowed them to exhort money from venues where little guys play."

This is SO ridiculous. The US Government passed the laws that FORCED ALL songwriters of ALL levels to play by these rules. Songwriters were not given a choice in the matter. The laws were formed TO SUPPORT THE VENUES!!!!! Again.. I will say it because the ignorance is making me nauseous... THESE LAWS HELP THE VENUES USE MUSIC TO MAKE MONEY, NOT JUST THE SONGWRITERS.

If you can't understand that, fine. But stop misleading people. It's the government and the continued lobbying by the restaurant and venue people that will never allow any other system even if you could dream one up. This allows venues to use music to make money however they choose for a ridiculously low yearly fee. Plain and simple. In other western countries, these fees are dramatically higher. But the lobbies in the US for the venues are simply too strong and they overwhelm the voice of the songwriters. So we're forced, by Federal Law (and, by the way, International Law as well) to let anyone who chooses use our songs to make money from them. So those folks NEED TO SHARE A LITTLE OF THAT MONEY with the people who created the songs. Please stop being so aggressively ignorant and read some books or do a little homework. Ack!
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"Little guys have been lead down a path to the belief that if they gave the organizations money it would make them professionals and they then could relish in the exhortion."

Sigh... what money are they giving the organizations exactly? They are free to join? Again.. please learn what you're talking about before making demonstrative statements on this website about things you don't understand.
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"These lawyers are are just another Guido."

What in the hell does that mean? Is it an ethnic slur against Italians? What?
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"Because something that is unfair and unjust has been made law we have no recourse and must pay the exhortion or change the law."

I think the word you're looking for is extortion and if there's a law that says that if you VOLUNTARILY want to use the creative work of someone else to make money, you need to pay them for the privilege it's hardly extortion. It's the opposite. It's a voluntary purchase that you are free to make or not make. Charging someone a fee for a product or service or creative by product if you voluntarily choose to use it is not extortion.

For the record, here's the definition of extortion:

---Extortion, outwresting, or exaction is a criminal offense, which occurs, when a person unlawfully obtains either money, property or services from a person, entity, or institution, through coercion.---

No one forces a business to use music to make money. If they choose to do so, then they need to pay. If they DON'T pay.. guess what, THEY are guilty of the crime of using someone else's property without paying for it.
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"Their are spys everywhere watching and listening to us (with snot running down their nose) waiting to make their next buck."

What? Do all bill collectors have snot running down their noses? If a music venue featuring live music has paid their license fees guess what? No one is going to come to collect the bill. It's only when the music is being STOLEN by means of NOT paying the license bill that people come around. If someone doesn't pay for their car, someone comes around to collect it. If someone doesn't pay their cable bill, someone comes around and disconnects it. In the case of music, if someone isn't paying the licensing fee, eventually there's a chance that someone will come around from one of the PRO's and ask you to pay for using it. Do all of the above have snot coming out of their noses, or just the music bill collectors?
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"My advise is to pay the fees join the PROs and admit that what Brian hails is that you are trapped no matter which way you turn their lawyers have covered the bases and intend to take your dues and the fees and divide it among themselves."

Actually the money collected from the license fees goes into the general fund of the PRO's and is paid out based on the agreed upon model of their writer members. It's irrelevent whether the user of the music likes the model of payout. It doesn't mean you don't owe the money. Songwriters are free to join whichever PRO they want (or none at all) and when the join, they are able to vote on how they want that PRO run. It's frankly neither the concern of or the business of the venues how that money is paid out. It is ONLY the concern of the songwriters that are THEIR members. It's also not the business of songwriters who are not affiliated as it is not their money in the first place. The rates are set by the government and the PRO's are simply collecting for the specific writers who are their members. The government forces songwriters to allow venues to use their music IF (and only IF) they pay the license fees. For a venue to complain about how that money is paid out is like you going to Wal-Mart and taking a basketball and not paying for it and saying your excuse is that you don't like how Wal-Mart pays the manufacturer of that basketball. Everyone reading this can understand that would be wrong. It's up to the basketball manufacturer and Wal-Mart to decide if their fees are fair and it doesn't permit the customer to STEAL the basketball if they don't like the deal that was made.
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"This is not the only time laws have been used to exhort or control the little guys labor its been going on a long time."

Actually, the PRO's are looking out for the little guys (the songwriters) and trying to collect money FOR their labor. Unlicensed venues are the ones stealing from the "little guys."
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"Playing a cover in an unlicensed venue is illegal."

That's the first correct thing you have said.
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"If it should or should not be that way is not the question the ones with the money made it illegal and that is that."

Wrong. The US Government made it illegal. And guess who that is? The entire US public who voted in the people who passed those laws. And who pressured the US Government to keep these laws in place? Why yes.. the MUSIC VENUES AND OTHER PLACES THAT USE LIVE MUSIC!!!! You have your rage so pointed at the wrong people it would be laughable if not so misleading and damaging to those who need the facts.
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"We are still working for the Pharaohs. Now we can say there are three things in life we can count on Taxes, Death, and The PROs.
papos"

So you expect the songwriters to work for free like slaves then I guess eh? Nice. Wouldn't that make the venue using their labor for free the pharoah?
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Sorry to pick on Pappos but even after this long discussion you either still don't understand, or you simply don't care to know or repeat the truth. Feel free to hate the people trying to make sure the creators of songs get paid. I suspect part of that animosity and that of others comes from the fact you haven't reached commercial success and you aren't earning money from your songs because they haven't become popular and people aren't playing them on the radio and in bars and making a living from them. But many others are.

100's of thousands of songwriters receive checks every month for their songs in the US along all thanks to the collection efforts of the 3 PROs. And PRO payments are always the majority of income for songwriters. Not record sales or anything else. And venues need to stop looking at music as something that should be free for them to utilize to make money themselves. And saying that you aren't making money so it's okay to steal is like saying you don't have a job so it's okay to shoplift. If you can't afford to use live music or play the radio or recordings in your venue, then by all means don't use it.

Not all venues can make money from live music. It takes business planning, it takes marketing, it takes investment in stage and sound gear, it takes having the time and expertise to book the right types of acts who will please your customers and cause them to stay longer and spend more money and it takes careful bookkeeping to make sure that the investment in music is paying off. If it isn't, you have to be willing to say you need a change and find another way to entertain your customer base. It's all business 101.

Music is service that you can choose to use or not. But if you ARE going to use it, then pay for it. If you don't like the rates, then either don't use it or work to change the government's laws. But if you want to do that, make sure you understand the ramifications first. You're not going to like the new reality that comes after the blanket license system is gone. Ironically, the blanket license system disproportionately benefits the less famous/success songwriters rather than the MORE famous ones. That's because the Diane Warren's of the world (probably the single most successful commercial songwriter in history) could make a LOT more money if she wasn't stuck in this system.

But if there were no system, all the money would be taken up by a handful of the most famous songwriters and there would be NO money left for everyone else. And only THEIR music would get used because outside of the songwriting and musician community, most people going out for an evening want to hear songs they KNOW.. not songs they don't know by artists they don't know who may or may not even write good songs in the first place. Songs become well loved and popular because they appeal to the masses.. most indie songwriters material, even if well done, doesn't have that broad appeal or it would become popular itself. So your customers, as Herbie VERY accurately stated will not come out in masses to hear that.

And finally to Jessie: You should be very proud that you respect performing musicians enough to pay them. Many venues today don't. If you are having trouble coming up with a few dollars a day in license fees, you might want to consider that booking artists that play more popular songs and/or play them better might bring in more people who spend more money. If, on the other hand, you're already packed to full capacity every night, then you have to look at your business model and figure out if live music really makes any sense at all in the first place. Audiences love the familiar. They want to be entertained. Even when major stars do concert tours, they have to be VERY careful not to play too many of their new songs or they will lose their own audience who are already fans and paid to see them specifically. To think that audience members who don't know the artist want to hear songs they've never heard is to be a little delusional. It's simply not going to work over the long run and you'll never approach the success you could by booking artists with large local followings who already KNOW their songs or having unknown artists throw in some covers so the audience gets a breather between all those unknown heartfelt originals.

And performers right now don't have a law for blanket licensing of their work. And guess what? The private sector doesn't make up for that lack of law and income. Restaurants who play recorded music pay the musicians of those songs nothing. And if they had a choice, they wouldn't pay the songwriters either. One day that law might also exist. And when it does, perhaps more people who are great live and studio performers and can also share in some earnings for their efforts from radio play and venue performances. And that will ALSO be a good thing.

Brian


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Scotty,

To answer your question, BMI does not have a program like ASCAP Plus. I recently asked their VP why they still don't and they said that they feel like they do the right job seeing that the money is disbursed in the most efficient way (meaning they take the least overhead as a non profit) that they don't need to make it up to those who feel they missed them. He also said that they use those funds instead on education and also supporting grassroots causes (like JPF who they sponsored in 2008 with a grant). By supporting entities like JPF, many of those writers will get a lot of benefit in larger numbers for the same money. Since he feels that the ASCAP Plus program sort of "guesses" how much to pay out and doesn't actually verify the info submitted, he doesn't feel like it's fair to guess on a pay out when they have reliable systems to pay out using that data. That's a consistent position with BMI by the way. If two writers co-write a song and one belongs to ASCAP and the other to BMI, ASCAP will match BMI's payout to their own writer if they (BMI) paid more money out to their writer. BMI does not reciprocate. So I asked him why not? And he said (and I actually have to agree with him) that he if they are doing their job correctly, then the amount they are paying out is correct both when they are higher AND lower than ASCAP. So why would they pay out someone elses money to someone to match a wrong number? If you think about it, that is a pretty compelling offer. After all, they wouldn't take money away if they paid MORE to a member, so why pay more if they paid LESS if they feel they are right in the first place. They are open about this policy and it's a legitimate stance I think. And people are free to choose between one or the other based on these philosophical differences. That's why it is good to have more than 1 PRO like most other countries have.

SESAC is a different animal and no they don't have an ASCAP Plus type program. But speak to most SESAC members and they are quite happy where they are. Jody Whitesides is one such person, so feel free to ask him why he switched to SESAC.

And thank you for asking a question to learn the correct answer. I wish more folks would do that.

Full disclosure: BMI sponsored JPF in 2008. In 2003 and 2004 ASCAP Sponsored JPF. So far this year, none of them are, but we still support them all and feel like they are all important partners for the songwriting community.

Brian


Brian Austin Whitney
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Full disclosure: BMI sponsored JPF in 2008. In 2003 and 2004 ASCAP Sponsored JPF.
Brian


There's nothing like full disclosure, is there? Let the 'little guys" decide for themselves...

Mike Worrall

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Well Mike, as someone who has never made a dime off supporting the "little guys" for the last 11 years and has spent every possible moment working to support them both globally and face to face (I've met over 26K JPF members face to face in the last 11 years in their own home town) I think I certainly have the right to make sure the facts are out there for musicians and songwriters to use to help themselves, rather than random and ignorant lies and rants by people who can't be bothered to learn the truth and are happy to misinform their peers and friends all for the sake of a little bitch session.

Frankly, I am shocked and disappointed that so many of you prefer to feed off misguided hate and ignorance rather than the truth. Why not use a little of that rage to do some actual good in the world?

So.. I put my actions, my time and my full time, year round, 16 hours a day volunteer effort into trying to help folks. I wonder how many hours a week the misguided complainers are donating to their chosen communities and for the good of other writers and artists? How much of your life do YOU spend helping the "little guys" Mike? For that matter, how much time are many of the folks making these comments spending on educating THEMSELVES about their OWN careers and pursuits? All the information is readily available from a multitude of resources, many of which are free and easy to find.

So spare me the lecture on my own website Mike unless you at least have something of value to offer other than sniping. Being an "iconoclast" may be fun for you, but it's not good when it helps mislead and misguide people looking for the truth. It reminds me when kids all group together and decide that they won't learn at school because it's not cool. So they grow up to be cool people working for peanuts in some unskilled job the rest of their lives. Musicians who can't be bothered to learn how their business works but still think of themselves as professionals who should get paid often end up with the same fate.

Brian


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"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

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Brian what you have done with JPF is something you should be proud of. You like all of us must spend endless hours to support ourselves. Because you work more hours than me does not make you more of a humanitarian. I do not think anyone here questions your knowledge of the law or it's history. Your problem is that you are using inappropriate ways to communicate your knowledge with the public.

One thing I have learned in life is that many people make judgements about people by the way they express themselves. Have you thought about how people read you and the judgements they make about you because of the way you express yourself?

Some skill in interpersonal communications could go a long way to express yourself in a way that people would have more respect for you. Your authority can only command a certain degree of respect the rest has to come from somewhere else.

My suggestion to you is to read some books that have to do with communication and leadership it may benefit you more than you can imagine. As for myself I will not carry on this foolish conversation with you. I find you too disrespectful, a trait held by some bright and intelligent people who have little understanding of themselves and others. Please take it personally if I do not respond to your insults in the future.
papos

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Originally Posted by Brian Austin Whitney
Sorry.. but I can't allow the ignorance to go unchecked. I couldn't care less if you all HATE the PROs and wish them dead.. BUT.. I will not knowingly allow patently false info and ideas to be posted about them without the truth being told. I don't care if I convince those who make these statements, I only care about our members who want the truth and a reality check.
Brian
I'm sorry if Jak opened up a can of squiggly worms, I don't think Papos was being ignorant, he was just stating his subjective opinion about the situation on hand.

Well, I see where the PRO's can be an advantage to major publishers and songwriters who are getting major airplay or who are doing sound tracks for movies, but what advantage are mechanical royalties to someone who is not getting major airplay and has no desire what so ever to tackle the system in place you have so very well mastered. Just songwriters in a region who want to sell and play their own material raise their standard of living and put supporting musicians to work to play for a wider audience in a region by getting equal exposure and fair pay for fair play. So there are some catch 22 situations like Jak mentioned. And he's happy to be a part of one. Maybe I will be too one day. I haven't joined a PRO as I have not found it necessary. Shouldn't someone who owns the copyrights to their material be able to negotiate a price for the use of their song without registering? And then there is still a question of why artists who have registered their song with a PRO are not receiving mechanical royalties on Myspace? Is their a blanket they are operating under which excludes them from having to pay, they are earning advertising dollars? I see a lot of defense by you Brian on the side of the PRO's, but I was hoping you might have a comment on some of the validity of situations I've proposed? and I also know it's not just the PRO's who created the inequities, but just my subjective judgement so you don't call me ignorant, I personally think they help feed it on a local level. Obviously some people have seen some sense in what I'm saying. An active member on the forum here, and I wont mention any names, said a couple came out to a performance by his group after hearing their song on community radio WMNF 88.5 fm just so they could hear it live and purchase the CD. Imagine the financial impact it would have on his life if just 500,000 people of the 2.7 million in the Tampa Bay Region heard it? Can you imagine it. So you don't have to read back, Have you taken the time to listen to www.musictampabay.com for a week or so at your leisure? If not maybe you should before answering these questions. Find the one singing to your heart, or the one that makes you laugh, or the one that makes you happy just to be alive and comment it on here. I know not all the recordings I have streaming there are professionally done, but would you agree it is a impressive set of material? If artists knew they could get fair airplay for fair pay don't you think they would be more inclined to take their material to local recording studios to have them professionally mastered if they haven't already? Could a PRO be created to include only a regions artists? I know these are all just hypothetical questions and I appreciate your knowledge so let me breakdown the questions and maybe without sounding punishing you could LISTEN instead of REACT and answer before the thread gets locked because like Sam Cooke said good or bad "A Change Gonna Come".

1. Can an individual negotiate a price for their copyrighted song without having it registered with a PRO?

2. Why are songwriters not seeing a royalty check for their music on myspace who has paid advertisers? (I'll go back and read their agreement just in case I missed something)

3. Would you agree or disagree and I'm not talking about all songwriters who are recording artists, because not all have commercially viable material; If the local airwaves the people of the USA gave the FCC the right to control, mandated Commercial Radio to broadcast local artists by adding them to their playlist would it bring them a greater consumer base and larger audience in the broadcast region?

4. If songwriter/recording artists knew they could get fair airplay for fair pay, do you think they would be more inclined to take their material to local recording studios to have them professionally recorded and or mastered?

5. If your answer to 3 & 4 is yes, would it have a positive or negative impact on a local economy?

6. Do you think it would be a good idea for members of a PRO to petition their elected leaders to spend these establishment licensing dollars on lobbying the FCC for exactly what I am proposing?

7. Can you hear a song in your heart by what I am saying HEAR Brian, can you see communities coming together to support these artists on a wider scale, wouldn't it be nice to walk into a local hardware, or be on a job site and HEAR someone singing your song Brian? Can't you see, Cant you see, we're all JUST PLAIN FOLKS.

Peace on and offshore,
Scotty Lee

Last edited by Treble Hook; 01/24/09 08:25 AM.


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Papos,

I find it rather humorous to get etiquette lessons from someone who used an ethnic slur in his factually incorrect and ignorant rant above. How do you post that with a straight face?

I don't owe you anything Papos. When you post falsehoods like you have above on my website, you've shown disrespect for not only me and the work I do, but also the entire community and even your friends who might actually believe what you said was true. You're not helping people by spreading false information or being angry at people who don't deserve it. I am not even sure you understand what you think you're raging against. But that didn't stop you did it? I guess you didn't take that communication and leadership class did you?

I communicated exactly what I wanted to and it appears you got the message. I have zero tolerance for your actions on this post. It's not acceptable and it's not welcome on this website. Others at least engaged in the conversation and bothered to learn the truth and ask questions about what they didn't know. You ranted on like you actually knew what you were talking about. And did I mention the ethnic slur you tossed in? I wanted to make sure you didn't forget, because I certainly didn't. Ethnic slurs, racial slurs, religious slurs all tend to cause me to lose my sense of diplomacy for the one making the comment.

You may be well loved among your fellow Tampa musicians. And they may dislike me for being so blunt and intolerant of your comments. I'd rather risk being disliked by some while giving them correct info to go forward with than loved by them while leading them astray with false information. Since you weren't willing to hear the truth in the previous discussion, it seems at least this time you paid attention. Answering your tone with the same tone back seems to work with you eh?

Sorry I ruffled your feathers, but I am not sorry I dispelled your misinformation. I'll make you a deal: Don't post false info again and you won't get a blunt response from me. If that's not acceptable to you, then please don't post at all.

Brian


Brian Austin Whitney
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jpfolkspro@gmail.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney
Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

"It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..." -Brian Austin Whitney

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Brian "There's not really a question in the Scotty. Can WHAT be negotiated? If you aren't already a member of a PRO, then there's nothing to negotiate. If someone has YOU play and you never play anything other than YOUR music and you are not registered with a PRO, then there's no issue. My point was that a venue who books various artists throughout a year can almost never make sure that they never play a song that is registered with a PRO. One slip up and they are on the hook for all fees at the max rate and they have no recourse but to pay if challenged."

Just my subjective opinion as being only a casual observer, but your response here was all you needed in the beginning without all the fluff although you contradicted yourself with the first statement because there is something to be negotiated. It is called a song in someones heart who wants to share it with the world. I,m no psychic, but I believe you knew this was the answer I was looking for all along and the rest would make me disappear like a fart in a face in the wind.

Peace on and offshore,
Scotty Lee

Last edited by Treble Hook; 01/25/09 01:42 AM.


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Originally Posted by Colin Ward
mmmmm......well music has to increase his business enough for him to want to pay the fees and the musicians. Some clubs are known for music and people go there to hear it. At others, music is wallpaper and the customers would go there with or without it. So I guess you have to find the ones where music is a part of the culture.


Music is a big part of the culture, people right here in the Tampa Bay area are buying music at Wal Mart they hear on the FCC controlled airwaves being played by Clear Channel and I'd be curious what the dollar figure is. I believe the local scene could grow if it wasn't for the way these entities have become monopolized into our failing economy.

Last edited by Treble Hook; 01/25/09 01:48 AM.


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In response to Scotty's questions/comments:
------------------------
"Well, I see where the PRO's can be an advantage to major publishers and songwriters who are getting major airplay or who are doing sound tracks for movies, but what advantage are mechanical royalties to someone who is not getting major airplay and has no desire what so ever to tackle the system in place you have so very well mastered."

I think you meant to say something other than Mechanical Royalties here. Just to clarify, Mechanical Royalties are paid to songwriters for each copy of their song that is made. Usually this means on a CD or other tangible medium, though there is currently discussion on how best to handle digital copies and their payment. It doesn't, however, have anything to do with Venues and license fees for the use of Live or recorded music performances of a song which I think you do mean. I wanted to be clear on this because many words and concepts have been tossed around here (and are commonly tossed around) that can confuse or mislead people understandably.
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"Just songwriters in a region who want to sell and play their own material and put supporting musicians to work to play for a wider audience in a region getting equal exposure."

So your real question I believe (and correct me if I have it wrong) is if you're not getting any radio airplay and you're not having your songs played by other artists at live venues, what's in it for you to have venues pay the license fees that you may never get right? Good question. The answer is that the venue would be following the law that states that songwriters works can be used legally by a venue in their business IF they pay the blanket license fees to the PRO's that represent the works in question. This would be any song written or co-written that is registered with one of the PRO's which are permitted also by law to be the collection agent for the writers in question. The license permits an "all you can eat" type of usage, meaning you can use as much or as little as you like, for one set license fee. If you choose to play Achy Breaky Heart continuously day and night year round, that is fine as long as you pay the fee. If you choose to only play Achy Breaky heart 1 time and no other music all year, the fee is the same. This is done out of expedience. The rates are low and encompassing because it would be too cumbersome on the venue and PRO to track all the songs one at a time. Plus there would be no incentive for a venue to report honestly if they had to pay per usage. So it's a blanket fee. Radio stations have a similar fee structure. Pay one fee to each PRO.. play anything you want all year. It doesn't matter if it's mostly ASCAP or BMI or SESAC, they're all covered with a license that allows as much or as little usages of their catalog as you like. So.. how does it help YOU? It means that they can have live music legally and they won't get shut down because they didn't pay for the license and were put out of business by lawsuits. It also means that they can book ANY artist and if they've paid their license fees, they can play any music including famous hits or unknown originals and the fees are always covered. By being able to always make the best choices in music for their customers, they will be more likely to stay in business and they will be more likely to have more money to book more acts because the better the music, the more money they can make if they manage it well. That's good for you and performers no matter whose songs you are playing. It also means that the music community as a whole can survive. There's a trickle down effect which says if the people at the top are making more money, they don't have to come down and cherry pick the opportunities from the people in the middle. And if the people in the middle are making their money, they don't have to come down and cherry pick the opportunities from the people at the entry/indie/grassroots/part time/casual player/hobbyist level. That means you'll have more opportunities.
-----------------------------------------
"I haven't joined a PRO as I have not found it necessary."

You sound like more than a hobbyist. I don't think there's much reason for a hobbyist to join a PRO. And if you have no CD's recorded for sale then there's really no need to join a PRO because without recorded music, there's no chance of radio play and thus not much chance for airplay royalties. Exceptions would be if you got placements on TV etc. but that's a little off topic for this discussion. But if you DO have CD's for sale, and if you DO get even local radio airplay, and if you DO get internet radio airplay and if you DO play live several times per week, ASCAP's ASCAP PLUS program might be worth joining for. If you keep track of all your gigs, the songs you played at them, the radio and internet play you got with documentation and submit it, you may get anywhere from a couple hundred to a couple thousand dollars a year. I know dozens of artists that do this every year and it's a great little supplement. If you don't want to go through that tracking etc... then no, there's no real reason to join a PRO for you.
--------------------------------------
"Shouldn't someone who owns the copyrights to their material be able to negotiate a price for the use of their song without registering?"

The government has taken that right away from you. In other words, you can't go to a radio station and say "pay me this amount of money and you can play my song.." nor can you go to another artist and say "pay me this much money and you can play my song" nor can you go to a venue and say "pay me this much money and you can play my CD." All those rights are gone. Your only option to earn money for those things is to join a PRO. Remember, the laws came first. Then the PRO's were created to act as the official legal collection system for this license system the government created to use music. So you really have no option to negotiate your own rates. If famous writers with hits songs COULD do that, they'd make a lot more money. That's why it's so laughable when someone suggests that this is all about those evil rich songwriters getting all the money while everyone else starves. It's really the opposite. They'd do better without the laws and the rest of us would be far more out of luck. The laws help venues the most. Next they help up and coming songwriters with songs getting SOME airplay (not massive, not even major stations necessarily, just some local and regional play now and then) because the blanket fee means they get a piece of these large licensing pools. If they had to negotiate on their own, they'd get nothing. The laws really don't help or hurt folks getting no airplay because they wouldn't get paid either way. The big hit writers get the least out of it because they can't negotiate for their highly in demand songs. They're stuck with the statutory blanket license fees and their percentage of that pie.
------------------------------------
"And then there is still a question of why artists who have registered their song with a PRO are not receiving mechanical royalties on Myspace?"

That's a valid question but it's one that has nothing to do with the PRO's. That is an issue for Harry Fox, a completely different entity. And it's not resolved completely, so it's possible that one day you will.
--------------------------
"Is their a blanket they are operating under which excludes them from having to pay, they are earning advertising dollars? "

Actually you're misinformed on this one. They do pay blanket license fees not only for songwriter royalties to the PRO's, but also a NEW royalty to Sound Exchange which collects a royalty for the people who PERFORM the songs on the recording. Not just the stars but also the sidemen as well. This is something we're currently fighting to get added to terrestrial radio and in fact I will be meeting with politicians in DC to talk about that very issue. So they do pay those blanket license fees for radio type plays (i.e. if they are broadcasting songs). However.. and this is a big thing.. I believe in the user license in some cases people have waived their royalties to many of the digital sites out there in exchange for the free hosting. I don't know what the MySpace user agreement currently is, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that you waived those rights. But I really don't know and if you signed up for that service, it really is important to know what you're agreeing to before doing it. For more on that you'd need to talk to an attorney with a copy of the agreement to be sure.
-----------------------------
"I see a lot of defense by Brian on the side of the PRO's, but I was hoping he might have comment on some of the validity of situations I've proposed? and I also know it's not just the PRO's who created the inequities, but just my subjective judgement so you don't call me ignorant, I personally think they help feed it on a local level"

Hopefully I answered your questions. Something else to consider.. the amount of money collected from all venues is a very tiny percentage of the larger pool of money collected by a PRO. What may seem like a lot of money to a coffee shop is really a drop in the ocean of the many billion dollar pool of money collected and distributed by each PRO. And that money is going to real live songwriters, some who are barely even part time, all around the US. Lest you think it's just hit writers getting rich, the truth is that even number one country song can net the writer less than 100K in earnings across the board. I know people with multiple #1 hits that still have to work a day job or give music lessons to make their house payment. That money is widely spread out. But to those writers who make a few thousand dollars a year it's enough to give them time to write and record and make music. And that's what the goal should really be.. having fun making music. The professional music industry is a tough business. Less than 1000 artists in the entire world are on a major record label. There are well over 500K active performing artists who make all or part of their living, so the odds of being one of those 1000 worldwide are slim. Things like PRO's make it possible for many of them to get by and keep making music as a living or as part of their living. Not everyone can make professional money, but we should try to make sure that as many writers are getting compensated as possible under the terms the government has stuck us all with. It's only fair. All other types of work where the public benefits from the results are compensated.. but people these days with illegal file sharing and opposition to royalties make it really tough and unfair.
---------------------------------------
"Have you taken the time to listen to http://www.musictampabay.com for a week or so at your leisure?"

I listen to JPF member music roughly 12 hours per day every day during the music awards process which lasts over a year. I started this process last January and I've already got 12 months in it and it won't be done until this summer. I suggest to you and everyone to get involved and do some serious screening as a peer in the awards process. There were 42,000 albums and 560,000 songs entered this year from over 160 countries and in over 100 genres. If you want to understand where the talent bar really is set just among the indie/grassroots community (not to mention the major label and indie label system) then you need to listen to the best of what is in there. It may surprise you a great deal. Though I haven't listened recently to that station, I have listened to things like Al's radio show that featured mostly Tampa area artists, and with a few exceptions, it was not on par with the best stuff we find in the awards. That's not to say it's terrible, because it's not. But the bar is VERY VERY VERY high even among people who will never be able to make a full time living at music. And to really understand what you're up against, you need to listen to a LOT of music outside your local bubble to get an idea. It took me until well past the time when I had a record deal offered to even understand how good the competition out there really was. JPF and touring the USA, Canada and now Europe has taught me what's really out there. Screening songs from over 100,000 albums sent to us by fellow JPF members over the years (and that's not an exaggeration) has really educated me as to how good you really need to be to be competitive commercially or artistically. It's quite eye opening.
------------------------
"I know not all the recordings including the one song I have streaming there are professionally done, but would you agree it is a impressive set of material? If artists knew they could get fair airplay for fair pay don't you think they would be more inclined to take their material to local recording studios to have them professionally mastered?"

Over 95% of the 42,000 albums we got this year were professionally recorded and mastered. Think about that. That is who you are really competing with. Albums have to be radio ready to even get the time of day now. That's why it's so important to listen to what your peers, not just locally, but across the US and the world for that matter, are really doing. Ask some of the members here who have done a lot of screening.. they'll tell you how high the bar is.. and keep in mind, you need to be BETTER than ALL those folks to have any shot at major success because with a few exception (we have small number of label or really famous members who enter) those folks are not making any money either and are fighting their way up the food chain. If you aren't already BETTER than them, then first you have to catch and pass them by before going after the bigger opportunities. It's just a problem of high quality supply and very little real demand. Add to that file sharing and the devaluing of music in our world culture because of it and it's a tough world. That makes the meager royalties from airplay and venue play that much more critical.
-----------------------------
"Could a PRO be created to include only a regions artists?"

Actually the surveys done by PRO's are regional and even by local station. So in a way they ARE both regional and worldwide. If there were a regional PRO, the payouts would be exactly the same. Less money collected upfront paid to less artists would equal the same in the end.
----------------------------
I think I answered all your questions above as I went.
---------------------
"1. Can an individual negotiate a price for their copyrighted song without having it registered with a PRO?"

Answered above.
--------------------
"2. Why are songwriters not seeing a royalty check for their music on myspace who has paid advertisers? (I'll go back and read their agreement just in case I missed something)"

answered above as much as I can answer it.
-----------------------------
"3. Would you agree or disagree and I'm not talking about all songwriters who are recording artists, because not all have commercially viable material; If the local airwaves the people of the USA gave the FCC the right to control, mandated Commercial Radio to broadcast local artists by adding them to their playlist it would bring them a greater consumer base and audience in the broadcast region?"

Actually JPF is at the forefront (and actually this is my topic for the panel I am on in Washington DC next month) of pushing for more localism in radio. I agree that we've lost that with big corporate radio owners broadcasting 1 playlist from an office in Texas to the whole country. We're working on it. That's what we do.
-----------------
"4. If songwriter/recording artists knew they could get fair airplay for fair pay, do you think they would be more inclined to take their material to local recording studios to have them professionally recorded and or mastered?"

The DO get fair pay for what airplay they get. But there's simply too many great recorded songs to ever get airplay. The supply outweighs demand or capacity exponentially. Add to that record labels that pay off radio stations and it makes it worse. JPF has been on the fight against Radio Payola and we helped break the labels which resulted in them confessing and negotiating a settlement (which we were consulted on) to make amends. But it still happens in only slightly different ways. But that issue has nothing to do with PRO's. By the way, PRO's and the record labels don't get along. They don't have the same interests at all. So problems with labels or the radio stations for that matter doesn't cross over into a problem with the PROs. I will say this again. The PRO's are the good guys. The radio stations and record labels and even the government most of the time? Not so much.
-------------------------------
"5. If your answer to 3 & 4 is yes, would it have a positive or negative impact on a local economy?"

I think if done right, it can create a unique local culture and help the economy and tourism and community identity. I am making that very point in person to congressmen and senators and their staffs in DC on February 11th.
------------------
"6. Do you think it would be a good idea for members of a PRO to petition their elected leaders to spend these establishment licensing dollars on lobbying the FCC for exactly what I am proposing?"

The PRO's wouldn't lobby for that purpose. The artist community, however, already is. Localism isn't a PRO issue either way. Their job is to monitor ALL airplay regardless of who it is and collect that money and pay it to right people. They don't and can't play favorites in that way. It would be a conflict of interest and likely illegal to do so in my opinion.
-------------
Peace on and offshore,
Scotty Lee

always nice to have good questions.

Brian


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"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

"It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..." -Brian Austin Whitney

"Sometimes all you have to do to inspire humans to greatness is to give them a reason and opportunity to do something great." -Brian Austin Whitney
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Originally Posted by Papos
There is no reason to be satisfied with the existing status quo. The problem that I see is that the existing status quo is restricting efforts that could be made at a local level. I believe that the only way to go about correcting the system is on a local level similar to the direction Scotty is pointing. A national effort to change the way the system works puts the little guy against the Giants. Which would only result in little or no help for the little guy. The help for the little guy has to come from the local to state level. Tampa and Florida is an excellent ground for this. I think everyone wants the same result, we have different views in how to achieve the result. I for one like Scotty's local approach. One thing we can all agree on is JPF is a tool that can help the local effort work and it provides a platform for national change. If not for JPF this discussion would be in the back of a bar on Dale Mabry Hwy.
papos


We're looking for leadership here Brian. If the PRO's existing today are not helping the little guys move in the direction here, I see no reason to limit myself exclusively by registering my material with them. I hope at least with your connections and the names of people in these organizations you know, you could get them to come on HEAR and comment. It is the most expressed chapter on the JPF forums. We're looking for some real leadership as we enter into harder economic times. You are the Main Man on the forum here, you've had them donate to support the site, Taxi by God is a community partner, you don't pay into them do you? Acceptance is not the answer to the problems existing today. Change is the touchstone of progress.



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Brian, Thank you for taking the time to respond so diligently. It is nice to know you will be speaking on a lot of the topics we have hit on here. The digital world has made it better for artists to get their music out there, but mostly it is being exploited IMO by most of the sites out there. I've seen the request for help with the awards screening. I dont know how many commercially viable CD's we have available in the Tampa Bay Area, but I know we have a lot. We also have a great opportunity here if we we're to change the way the system works. My concern is not with 100,000 albums from all over the country and beyond. Just the ones here on the Central West Coast of Florida. I can also understand how the songwriters stuck in the old way of doing things can even have a great song hit the charts and struggle. We are letting the controllers of the old hits stay in the game too long IMO. If other regions followed a formula similar to what we have been debating here they to could have a thriving local scene. Record companies are losing their control of the market and as long as oldie moldies, american idolies, and nashville country kill, keep getting all the exposure it will never change in a regional scene. Here lies the other problem. The catalog of music some corporations own is astronomical and it is our job to let the lawmakers know it is not good for business. It's still hard for me to believe and feel I would be naive to not think the PRO's who are in control of all the distribution of these royalties do not wreck some kind of havoc on the situation. The model we have been talking about here could set a precedent for songwriting and music professionals in other regions to follow. It would be easier for their neighbor to find them without limiting them to look elsewhere, but it should start first on a local level, be encouraged, and it can be done. Let the days of the old record companies continue to fall to the way side and give up the control they have set themselves up so well for and are hanging on to with total disregard for the art, the humanities, and the livelihood of many. Monies should trickle down from the source not the few. I will be accumulating the information here and try to edit it into an editorial to be submited to the St Petersburg Times, Tampa Tribune, and Obama's site for change ideas, with a plea of anyone reading it to call their local radio stations asking them why they are not playing these artists. If there is a breakdown of artists/songwriters who have submitted material from the Central Gulf Coast of Florida I would be willing to help screening. It would benefit us in getting a closer look at what we have here to push into the public's eyes with a follow up editorial to keep the issue in the faces of our local and state elected officials as they will have a closer tie to the meeting taking place in February and decisions being made to the fate of the music industry afterwards. If anyone has any suggestions on what to put into the editorial please respond. Or if you think I'm crazy please tell me so. Should we continue the movement or are we beating a dead horse.

Peace on and offshore,
Scotty Lee

Last edited by Treble Hook; 01/24/09 10:56 AM.


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7. One more question anybody, In case I missed it, Can PUBLIC DOMAIN songs be played in a non licensed by the PRO's establishment? Just for clarity.

Last edited by Treble Hook; 01/24/09 03:18 PM.


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Public domain songs are just that.. free to the entire public to do anything you want with.. record, change, adjust, perform, or creatively deconstruct however you want.

As for you suggesting that people come here to address your questions, thats what I do. There would be no point in them coming here and telling you the same thing I do. It's clear to me that some in the Tampa group feel they are in a bubble, and want to live in your own world where the real rules and laws of the rest of us don't apply. The resistence to simple facts and the nearly complete unwillingness on your behalves (many of you in fact) to simply educate yourself from the multitude of available information and truth out there is shocking. A while back in this very conversation, you said you were going to go right out and get the book and read it for yourself. Have you? If you have, then YOU can easily fill people in on the facts. But a continued unwillingness or curiousity for the truth rather than gossip and "ignorance is bliss as long as we can blame someone else" types of attitudes that have been displayed by Papos and others is staggering. No one owes anyone their time to deal ignorance born not out of lack of information being available, but unwillingness or disinterest in learning that info.

There are plenty of people who feel their music career, whatever the level from part time player who does it for fun, to full time working musician and songwriter, is important enough to them to spend the time to seek information and truth on their own. We've discussed ALL these issues dozens of times on this very message board. If a few of you bothered to scroll back up to the top now and then and READ what is going on, you'd already have learned and probably participated in discussions all these very topics. But some appear to be more than happy to simply complain about the wrong people and think that the problem will either solve itself or magically everyone will change to do it your way, even if "your" (and I say that in the general sense) is completely unrealistic and misinformed.

I've been spending the last 11 years educating members and making information available. Our newsletter has had over 175 issues that address these types of topics. We have 3/4s of a million posts on this very message board that have answered nearly ALL these questions multiple times. Frankly, if you want "leadership" you should appoint someone in your chapter to learn the info and share the truth. I've already done that for 11 years and it's clear for whatever reason you guys have no interest in paying attention to that, especially those that have been here for many years.

If you want to learn it only from someone local, then I'd suggest going to your coordinators who should have had ample time to get this info. If they aren't doing it, then you need to find someone to step up to do it. But better than all that is to just do it for yourself. I do all this for free. But i am simply 1 person. So are YOU. If you can't educate yourself, how can I educate all of you by myself? If you aren't willing to do THAT for yourself.. then frankly, in the end, you only have yourself to blame for whatever happens to you. The info has NEVER been more easy to get in history. And I can't recall a single time someone reached out with reasonable politeness and didn't get a quick answer back from me, no matter how many other things I was already doing.

The most active chapter in JPF by a large margin is Orange County. They spend a lot of time booking industry speakers to come in and EDUCATE their members. The have meetings and showcases and work with other organizations in their area to share events and opportunities. They communicate a lot, just not via these message boards. There's a very big world out there beyond these message board. Only about 2% of our entire membership is active on these boards. Not everyone cares to use a message board. That's fine. It's here for people who DO want it, just like Roadtrip Showcases or the newsletter or the music awards or our Music Conference Panels or any of the other things we do are there for those who desire.

Some of these very topics I've discussed before with Al and maybe even Jerry was also in one some of these discussions back when we were talking about the new royalties that were going into effect on Internet Radio. The PRO's were front and center in those discussions and I remember when the TRUTH was put forward, some didn't like the answers and didn't want to listen. As demonstrated here, it appears that history is repeating itself.

Brian


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Originally Posted by Mike Worrall
Jessie,

I feel compelled to admit that one Friday night at The Bunker I sang Dion's "Runaround Sue" when you weren't there. I guess I need to send BMI a check.

I'm truly ashamed of myself...

Mike

http://www.myspace.com/threeoldguys
http://www.myspace.com/mikeworrall



I think you owe them .091 cents.



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Originally Posted by Mincer
Don't know how I feel about this. Most clubs that won't pay a yearly fee to PA societies won't be able to pay musicians either. I think it is the cost of doing business. Otherwise, shut the CD player/radio/TV off, and see how many people stick around.


You have to get the public to pay for it. Equal Airplay for Equal Pay!



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Originally Posted by Johnny-Boy
I checked out your homepage Kristy. You have an ample supply of songwriter/musicians that perform at your venue. Very impressive.

Best, John



You bet it's impressive! It's impressive in other regions as well!

Equal airplay for Equal Pay!



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[quote=Treble Hook If there is a breakdown of artists/songwriters who have submitted material from the Central Gulf Coast of Florida I would be willing to help screening. It would benefit us in getting a closer look at what we have here to push into the public's eyes with a follow up editorial to keep the issue in the faces of our local and state elected officials as they will have a closer tie to the meeting taking place in February and decisions being made to the fate of the music industry afterwards. If anyone has any suggestions on what to put into the editorial please respond. Or if you think I'm crazy please tell me so. Should we continue the movement or are we beating a dead horse!

Peace on and offshore,
Scotty Lee
[/quote]

Brian does this enter the equation? or are the screenings completed for our region?



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Originally Posted by Jak Kelly

Club owner: Sorry but I do not have the Money at the moment to Pay Ascap and BMI Fees.
So NO GIG!!
Ok Musicians what should we do?
/
Now My name is Jak Kelly.
I Compose Songs and am a member of A.S.C.A.P.
I certainly would want to get paid if someone performs my songs. So I am in a bit of a quandry. It is getting harder and harder to get gigs because of Clubs not wanting to pay ASCAP, BMI and Sesac.
So how can I make $$ in this Business?


I am putting a 3hr show together and need 3 songwriters with unlicensed (not registered through the PRO's) songs for the first set.

I will be playing my copyright protected material and not registered with the PRO's songs for the 2nd set

I asked Jak if he couldn't do a set of PUBLIC DOMAIN songs, he said he only plays his own original licensed and registered songs so he can't do it. If you know anyone who would like to do the 3rd set of PUBLIC DOMAIN songs only let me know.

http://www.ibiblio.org/jimmy/folkden-wp

There will be a cover charge of $11.11 and tickets will be printed and sold. gross take will be split 3 ways minus $100 to pay for graphics, posters and tickets. 1st set will be split 3 ways. Any of the Artists/songwriters who use supporting back up players will negotiate with them directly. 70 tickets will be printed.
If it sells out. The gross take will be 777.77 if it sells out.

The title of the show will be Equal Airplay for Equal Pay!

Any songwriters who would like to participate Please correspond via: idigflorida@gmail.com

Last edited by Treble Hook; 01/25/09 01:02 PM.


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Originally Posted by Jerry Jakala

Brian Austin Whitney is right on the way that the current PRO's work.
If we are not happy with the current system then we have to try to change it.
A thousand screamers will be heard over the mouse in the corner.



Don't let the current rulers scare you into a corner!

Last edited by Treble Hook; 01/25/09 12:57 PM.


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Originally Posted by Mincer
Commercial radio stations are owned by just a few companies and generally feature easily catagorized music filtered through big bucks- sadly this is why great fingerstyle guitarists & great local songwriters (not to mention the weirdo stuff I do) are never heard on commercial radio-


Many Artist in Tampa Bay play a niche genre of music like you create, but there are many who have commercial quality material. If you team them in a show with a couple of artists in your category it makes for a very entertaining show!



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Like some of us that come to the boards to post and interact I sometimes keep up on topics like this one and choose not to get involved because it may look like I'm taking sides or that the conversation is doing just fine without adding another frictional dimention to it. But I would like to say something now. This post started out by Jak making a statement and asking a question about a situation with a club owner. Valid and propper in my opinion. The question has been asked and answered and some as usual don't like the answer. But, there is only one truth and in this case it is that the PROs are there to protect the commercialy accomplished songwriter as they would be available to protect our (your's and mine)interests should we become "commercialy sucessful. To make snide comments or banter for the sake of bantering is unproductive but unsurprising acknowledging those who are being contrary. Please don't get me wrong as many of you involved here have been respectful and informed I also find a sense of trivial banter.
One thing I've learned over the last five years of being on this board is that Brian interacts into discussions where he can lend his expertise which is in the field of the business of music. He hasn't built the largest musicians association in the world by not knowing whats he's talking about. I would suggest that new and old members alike take a minute and look around the different pages on this web site and really get to know the organisation that JPF is. The reach, the availability of resourses, the largest music awards in the world for independent artists. I've been there, not once but twice and I can tell you this guy walks the walk he talks so please if you ask a question be respectfull of the answer.
Now with that said, I do take issue with this one statement made by Brian.

"It's clear to me that some in the Tampa group feel they are in a bubble, and want to live in your own world where the real rules and laws of the rest of us don't apply. The resistence to simple facts and the nearly complete unwillingness on your behalves (many of you in fact) to simply educate yourself from the multitude of available information and truth out there is shocking."

The truth is the amount of members who have chosen to chime into this conversation many with valid and interesting input in reality are a very small portion of the total Tampa Bay JPF community. The Tampa Bay Chapter which has been around for five years now has had hundreds of individual indies hit our stage and visit this board over those five years, but I guess eight or ten or twelve even, does constitute "some". I just don't think that was a fair statement. I'm sure that in many cities and townships around the U.S. and the world "some" other JPFers and non JPFers share many of these same misconceptions.

I think productive dialog is good but bantering for the sake of bantering is leading to a negative discussion here. Let's be aware that what we say here can be read by the world and that we should'nt say anything in writing that we wouldnt say to someones face.
Al Alvarez-Caring About "OUR" Chapter...because...
"We're All In This Together"


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Originally Posted by Al Alvarez

I think productive dialog is good but bantering for the sake of bantering is leading to a negative discussion here. Let's be aware that what we say here can be read by the world and that we should'nt say anything in writing that we wouldnt say to someones face.
Al Alvarez-Caring About "OUR" Chapter...because...
"We're All In This Together"



I would like to thank you Al. I would also like to say in one respect through the course of the thread here I have gained a better understanding of how the PRO's work and am not against them collecting money for anyone who is a member or wants to join. The real point is and Brian did a great job of agreeing is; why are artists from here who's music hits the mark, not played on the broadcast waves in the Tampa Bay area. A perfect example is your gig Friday Night at Jolli Mon's. It had satisfactory attendance. Not stellar, but it was a well received performance and you will be returning. Was the Pay equal to the performance? maybe in your eyes it was, but IMO no. I was there when you were loading up and setting up and seen how much effort was put into it. If Jim's song "All American High" was played in the rotation of the commercial radio stations in our region your attendance would of been double or tripled. The song is commercially playable, and professionally recorded and mastered. It deserves to be heard here. It would be nice to have it become a national or international hit, but someone else in another region has one just as good. It's like playing the Lottery, the lottery is a tax on people who do not know how to do math. Henceforth, your attendance would of doubled at your performance, you could of earned at least twice the amount you were paid, and sold twice as many CD's. No one would turn down the radio if the song was played. The radio and the station would not go out of business. In fact I think it would help their ratings. Local advertisers would see it as a means to get their product into the eyes of people in attendance at your shows, and a larger group of people would be earning Equal Pay for Equal Airplay! There is a way to get it to happen. I have no idea what the rate radio charges for advertising time, but just like a jingle, Raymond James pays for the ad time, and says this next song is by Tampa Bay Recording Artists Mason and Alvarez is brought to you by Raymond James. Fat chance of it happening with the Bushwhacked song, but you get the idea. They sell buy advertising, we get the airplay, and a greater amount of people turn out for the show. It' is win win for all involved!



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Supply and demand - too many songs and musicians, not enough customers.


Colin

I try to critique as if you mean business.....

http://colinwardmusic.com/

http://rosewoodcreekband.com/


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Great thread! I'm getting a major league education. I think there are tons and tons (and tons) of little businesses and coffee shops in violation who don't know they are in violation. I'm considering joining a PRO this summer, actually, and maybe going the Taxi route for a year to see if anything happens. To paraphrase Jak, better to try than to wonder "what if."

It is ironic, though, that I can perform a song I wrote in a venue and the venue pays money that is supposed to go to the writer but never goes to the writer which is me. I understand why it is, thanks to Brian's explanation, but it does feel a little stupid. The price of a cup of coffee... they should just give me a cup of coffee and be done with it. Wait... they already do. I guess we're even. smile





Richard MacLemale
Music = http://www.richardmac.com
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