JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum Do you prefer a savaging critique or a damning with faint praise?

I ask this question because I'm becoming ever more hesitant about giving feedback on songs that might be construed as negative, when it is meant as constructive criticism to help the songwriter improve their craft.

My own personal experience of being told my early stuff was great by friends was very damaging to my progression and improvement as a songwriter and it wasn't until some people really took the time to "savage" my songs that I started to improve, a long with a lot of other factors of course. And I'm still a relative novice to songwriting but, hopefully, learning fast and getting nearer to that "perfect" song.

I think I make a not bad critic because very little has an emotional impact on me these days and I tend to see the imperfection and negativity in life rather than the other way around - which probably makes me a lousy human being but that's another point! - but, on the other side, if anyone does do a song on here that has a big impact on me, it's likely you've written a number one hit!

I aspire to write such a song, so when I listen to songs on here, I like to analyze why a particular song is a good song but not a great one. I, of course, am always wary of damaging someone's self confidence when giving my opinion on a song or lyric, but I think to a certain extent any creative person has to develop a pretty thick skin if they're going to be able to develop.

Thoughts on this subject appreciated.

Lucian

lucian, premise what you want at the beginning of your post and most folks will give it to you straight. It's very few times these days i am not writing to ultimately pitch it. I premise when something is a worktape and when it's a demo, hopefully i've got the kinks worked out before it's a demo...ha...there are many hobbyists who don't aspire to do more than just write things that they like. That is quite a different scenario than someone who wants to go commercial. The commercial guys and gals have to be willing to hear all critics, and at the same time decide whether that's good advice for where they are taking the song. The critic ain't gonna be pitchin' your song, you or a publisher will...the cream will rise to the top even within your own work, that feeling you get about a hot new song, when it's 6 - 8 months down the road and that songs still burnin' up your ears, turn the marketing heat up on that one...good luck bro, and give it to me straight on mine, i get about 99 passes to every one publishing deal...so i can take it, some folks are not in it for those purposes at all and they don't need that type of review or want it...premise your intentions...be well bro, write great, write often, see ya...moker

You should get involved in the mentor critique and MP3 forum. That's what it's there for. It teaches you how to be constructive as a critic. You can find mean reviewers anywhere on the Internet, but this forum teaches you (with an experienced mentor) how to give constructive advice to a songwriter. The writer is forewarned before they enter their lyric and should know that they are under scrutiny. It may be the closest any songwriter may get to a paid critique from a person in the business.
Personally, I don't care about critiques. I'm not above them, but I don't write for anyone else but myself. My songs are mine and I will record them as I see fit. I put my songs on the MP3 board to see if they move people, and not to see what their hit potential is. Ben

I don't think damning with faint praise helps anyone. I think it is possible to be both honest and encouraging. Not every reviewer has the experience/knowledge to assist in terms of commercial viability... but I still value comments from all.

Moker, that's a very good answer, I guess you have to know where everyone here is coming from when giving comments on their songs. I know, for example, for you, Big Jim and Dutch Jim it's a serious business with livelihoods at stake so serious no holes barred critiques are important and helpful in these cases. But there's other folks for who it's just a hobby and it's not fair to hack apart a good, well written song because it's not a "great song". The act of writing any song at all is a testament to that person's determination, patience and conviction to learn all the disciplines needed to write a song. The world's full of people who "could have done this" or "could have done that" if they'd had more time, money etc. so anyone who gets down and does it always has my admiration.

Ben, I have started using that mentor critique forum and it's a very useful tool indeed.



I disagree with this a bit because I don't think you can ever quite look at your own songs with the clarity other people can, so critiques are important in that respect. It's like asking me what I think of my cats. They are the prettiest, most intelligent cats in the whole world and I won't listen to anyone who says different. I think it's important to write for yourself, but I think a song has to be able to work for other people, too.

Hummingbird, probably what I meant to say was giving false praise instead of honest criticism when you hear a song you don't like. I guess the safest thing to say is nothing in such as a case... but then that could be a viewed as a damning by total silence, sometimes you can't win I guess. But encouragement is important, yes, and to emphasize the positives.

Thanks Lucian

I didn't mean to sound gruff or conceited. What I should have said is that I don't gear my songs for other artists, so I'm not trying to sell them. My thoughts should come out of my own mouth, though I would be flattered if someone else wants to sing one of my songs. It's happened before and turned out great.
I have had songs on the MP3 board and gotten great feedback that resulted in me making changes. I like to keep things simple so I don't fret over critiques. It may be a bad attitude but I'm content with it and my music does sell somewhat.

Personally, I want an honest answer, but like Moker said, it would depend on the writer, and their purpose of writing. I think being specific about what you're looking for is important. However, if you're seeking crits for the purpose of improvement, one thing I try to remember when receiving them, most would write it differently. Not everyone gets one line or another, but if one person doesn't get it, like it or whatever the case may be, that one person isn't going to convince me to change something, unless they have brought up a point that many others agree with. When giving a crit, I try to know something about the poster, if they are writing for fun, writing to sing themselves, or writing to be cut. That's helpful with how I will respond to their writing. There are a lot of very good songs here, not all are commercial, but not all are meant to be. I always look at the profile, and see what this person is doing before I will nit.

So, while I understand, some seem to say "feedback please" and aren't necessarily want to fix or change anything, others really are looking for the best product they can offer. It's hit or miss, but you learn to not take anything personally, it's nothing to get upset over, if someone doesn't like your input, that's ok, we won't all agree. If they don't this time, they might next time. It happens...

Lucian...You may constructively critic mine any time..I
have received tough critiques off and on the board over the 8 years I've been writing. I've also held many a hand in the years I've posted here when folks were wounded and have had my hand held a few times too. But..I think I've grown pretty thick skin.

When I post songs...I usually preface mine by saying they are piano worktapes..(when they are)...because...I know when I present them as such...they are rough. So I'm usually after...
the following.. are the lyrics and melody strong...is it worthy of proceeding with a demo. Am I doubling up on thoughts..?
How is my flow? Does my melody feel like the words? What would you change if you were me? For the style of music..are the words too cliche? Does my song progress both lyrically and melody wise... (NOT THAT I'M going to automatically go out and change things...but I can guarantee you I think about them...and have changed things 7 years after writing it because I see the point someone was making and see where I was wrong)

Something I've found out over the years of reading critiques..
though...and this DOES NOT apply to you... (not even thinking of your critiquing style)...but some folks only see and hear ...
one genre...and if a song does NOT fit in the specific genre...
they have in mind...it's labeled as yucko in their eyes...
When how much kinder it would have been to say..."ya know..this
isn't something I'm familiar with and I can only offer up what's I'm seeing based on what I know" ....

I also appreciate folks who can offer up something positive first...and then move right into the Meat of the matter.
and I DO want the meat of the matter.But if that's not their critiquing style, tis fine with me...

I also think it would be nice if folks would state at the top of their thread...if they DON'T want constructive thoughts.

Is every critiquer correct on their constructive thoughts.? Of Course Not...but if it's offered out of kindness and a helpful attitude...I think we should respond in kind.

and something else...I've learned the hard way...we are communicating via print and not face to face. I think more times than not when we get upset at something that's said on the board it's due to our own attitude when reading rather than
what someone appears to be saying...

oh..this turned into a rambling soapbox...
hope I addressed your questions...

best to you!!!..

by the way...You put so much emotion into your songs....I need
to stop by and coment..I meant to.

best...
Kaley

If the writer asks for feedback
give them feedback on
how you feel she could improve her song

encourage the writer
improve the song

I agree, Ande. If I’m posting something, it means I want to know how it is received. And I want to know it all ~ if it makes sense, if it flows, if it moves you, and if it doesn’t. I want to know other ways it could be done and its strong and weak areas. Whether I’m going to pitch something or not, I want it to be the best it can be. Getting an honest critique is one way to see how it’s working. And I think there’s always a constructive way to say what you want to say.

So, Lucian, if you ever critique something of mine, do not hold back. And I will do the same for you.

Kristi

I must say, it does annoy me when someone posts something "for feedback" and then, after several people have taken the time to listen, and give comments.. they say "I like this song just as it is and won't change anything". Not that you expect them to take everything you've said and run with it... but it's such a waste of time if all you really want is... "yeah, man, great song".

Neither, but I will gladly accept both.

Savaging, to me, is all in the tone. I have received critiques that were 100% addressing the negatives, and yet it was said encouragingly, so I did not feel savaged. I have also had the pompous negative review in which the reviewer is merely dismissive...the song sucks. Frankly, I DO find value in all those approaches, because it's great to hear what folks think, period. But I think it is entirely possible to point out every aspect of a song that doesn't work without taking on a "damning" tone.

Faint praise? Not very helpful...but nothing wrong with it either. If I like someone's song...why not tell them? Does that really hurt them?

All in all, I think we should be honest, specific and helpful.

Me with Mark. I too would prefer neither of the offered alternatives. I prefer (and try to offer when I can) constructive criticism, that tries to point out how what was done could maybe be made better. Telling me something sucks doesn't really give me any direction. Still, I'll take what I can get and try to live with it.

Joe

I think it depends on what is out to be achieved with it.

If someone is going to x type of musician or audience and throws out any obscure "song", then they can expect that the opinions may not be slated on the positive side.
This site has no given genre. Either do I, outside of non-top 40 FM or bits of AM and MOR, or stuff more obscure. No one form over the other.
I try to apply more order to those influences being siphoned through a funnel.
Being here for awhile I have a bit more of a feel for what some of the longtime members like.
Where they do music that I get in to, sometimes I try to do stuff in that same style and write a song.

I do not expect to be a master of a style trying to learn something, so I look for critiques and what also is found as a strength with it.

So I guess my answer would be a combination of both.
I go to threads to gain mass consensus. Only a handful of my recordings are more over to a given style. I pretty much went around the bend a few times with that and people will either like it or they will not.
I just want to follow my artistic visions and see what is getting across to the listener and learn more about recordings.
But I don't want to do something just so people may think that is more listenable.
I asked in a topic here how many compromise their artistic desires (thanks for the insights, by the way).
There must be a level of compromise to stay professional.
Especially for those that are in bands.
Major record companies still often select the songs an act puts on a cd.

I guess I see it as getting the handful that may like something instead of getting everyone to.
That would be impossible even for musicians that do everything perfect and in rote.

If a review is going to be scathing, I would like at least some informative, constructive reviews.
Often times who is being reviewed that way may not even be in to what that reviewer likes or may not be as familiar with the others music.

whether someone takes your feedback or not
critiquing songs is it's own reward
it sharpens your critical ear it helps you become a better rewriter

here's an interesting dilemma
What should you do if you discover a great song idea in the process of critiquing someone elses song?

Ummm, Ande,
If I discover a great song idea in the process of critiquing, I write the song. I almost always ask the person whose song it was, if they'd like to co-write, (I say almost, sometimes their writing just sparked a line that has nothing to do with their topic, so I'll write that by myself) but I'm going to write it whether they want to or not. Even if I feel like I can't post it, or do anything with it. It's a great exercise and may bring new ideas.

Caroline, thanks for your reply - I've noticed you're always helpful to people who are new around here and take them under your wing a little bit - that's really cool of you :-) I'm keeping an eye out for the finished version of your "It's my turn" as it sounds very promising and I'll post my thoughts on it when it's up.

Kaley, thanks for your comments, they were very insightful. I'm glad you had a song up at the moment I liked and could say positive things about! Thanks for saying I sing with emotion, I'm trying to reign myself in a little more of late and introduce a bit more Zen into my often bitter Lucian Laments.

Kristi, I'll keep an eye out for one of your songs and give my honest opinion :-)

Thanks for all the other comments, I will try to give good, fair and honest critiques from now on.

Lucian

Lucian,

It was interesting to me to run across this post because I had actually noticed that you had changed your critiquing style... and now I guess I know why. Personally, I want to hear people's true opinions about my songs, but it's obvious to me after reading numerous posts and replies that not everyone would prefer that. I do believe, however, that you can get a good feel for the kind of review someone is looking for by reading the reviews that they themselves give. I also agree with a lot of the folks who've already replied to you that you can point out negatives by making suggestions for improvement as opposed to simply saying that something is not good. I've learned to do that over the short time that I've been on JPF. To address your original question, I think the 'correct' critiquing approach would ideally depend on the individual who is doing the posting. The problem is, that despite some members' attempts to convince people to post their intentions for the song when they post it, it's realistically not going to happen. So my approach is that unless I know for sure that someone is looking for straight-forward critiques, I try to accentuate the positives of their songs and if I can see some aspect of their song that might need help (through my eyes as a novice in my own right), then I offer suggestions for improvement. My thought is that if I can provide one idea that could possibly help make a song better, then I've written a good post. Simply tearing apart a song does no one any good. In some ways I guess it's like managing people in the work place. If you want to get the most out of them, you need to offer plenty of compliments and focus on the positives, as well as letting them know when they may have done something inappropriate. If you don't take the time to talk about the good things, it will seem like you're constantly being negative and your input will likley fall on deaf ears. Regardless of the quality of the song (or lyric) that someone posts, it's usually a very personal thing for them (as is any creative endeavor), and in many instances they're putting themselves in a vulnerable position by putting a song out for public critique. In fact, many of the people who post so-so material are relatively new to the game, and therefore are more likely to be inexperienced at having people critique them. Personally, it was a huge step for me to take my songs from the relative safety of my circle of family and friends, and post them on a board like this. And even though in my mind I wanted people to be straight-forward with me, it still was an emotional hit when someone posted a negative comment. Especially for the first couple of songs I ever posted. So in my opinion, kid gloves are in order unless you know the poster prefers otherwise. And honestly, even though I want the straight scoop, it simply feels better when someone tells me they like this or that about my song before they tell me what the problems are. It's human nature. People will be more receptive, and less defensive, in that instance. In a business seminar I attended once I was told that the best way to deliver a negative comment or a correction was as a "compliment sandwich" -- You tell them something good, then you relay the bad news, then you end with something positive as well. Personally, if I perceive a song to be bad or simply not to my personal taste, I often choose not to post a reply as opposed to writing a post that I would have to struggle to make it sound positive. Anyway, great question!

I had rather you tell me right up front what you think of my songs and let me learn and grow and do the necessary changes on my songs, how else will I know if it's good or it's bad..I don't want anyone to just tell me they like it, if they really don't..I want to learn to write great songs, and I need all the feedback I can get and I appreiate all you tell me, this is the best learning experence I can ever receive..and I thank you ahead of time to crit my songs anytime. and hey, man- let me have it...thanks glyn

Every person needs to be responsible for the product of his/her own communication. To do this, one must first CARE about the effect one's communication will make upon the recipient.

Some people are thicker skinned than others. It's always safest to know about the person to whom you are communicating in order to know what they can or cannot take.

However, it's a great rule of thumb to always try to leave EVERYONE with a gift of some positive insight. If you don't think their work is good, tell them what you did like about it and then give them helpful insights as to how to improve the rest.

One's intention is always evident in the way they handle others. No one enjoys rejection or invalidation. But, we do honor a helpful critique which allows us to grow. So, while I do like it straight, I also like it kind.

Heidi

I think you should always give honest feedback to the writer. I'm not going to tell anyone their song is great when it is not. If I sense that all the writer wants to hear is "great job!", I'll just keep my comments to myself... no point in telling someone something they don't want to hear!



I disagree. It is always up to the writer to decide whether or not he or she wants to act upon my comments. Like Moker said, it's the writer who will be pitching the song further down the line (be it to a publisher or to an audience).

As the writer, I believe you should always weigh comments against your own opinion. If, say, Peter Gabriel were to comment on one of my songs, I'd still need to decide whether his remarks would make my song better in my opinion or just more Gabrielesk.

Hi All

Below here is some feedback I got from a professional songwriter, regarding my song "Get Over It". The reasons I wrote "Get Over It" was to help others, and also myself.

If you tell too much of the story, wouldn't that take the universal out of the song, isn't it better to let others interpret there own experiences into the song?

Here's the feedback, and thanks for the lovely fellow who took the time to send it to me. I will reply, and answer his questions.


.................................................................
Not bad! It’s a song that’s not at all in the genre which I would be able to do something with but that doesn’t take anything away from the song. This is more of an L.A. kinda thing.

Song wise, saying “Get Over it” at the top of the chorus sounds like you’re telling someone else to get over it. You might want to do a pickup, like “I wanna…” on the 1st line of the chorus as you do on the later lines just so we’ll know that you’re basically talking to yourself when you say ‘Get Over It”.

My other comment is I’m not sure what you’re trying to recover from…what pain are you trying to deal with? What are you trying to ‘get over’? As a lyric guy I find myself wanting to hear more about what led you to the conclusion that you have something you have to get over. What did this guy do? He broke your heart? Is that all this is about? Not that that’s a bad thing if it is, I’m just curious. For the country market there’d be a little more expectation for something into why this is a unique situation but it’s not a country song so maybe it’s fine for the rock market which is a market I don’t work personally.

Hope this helps.

.................................................................

Also genre's confuse me a bit, as Country Music has changed a lot today, and also there is heaps and heaps of different genre's.

I get confused sometimes by the critique's, as to the story behind my song "Get Over It", it isn't something that can be put in a song, it's too traumatic.

Confused Aussie!

Michele

Hi there,

Thanks for starting an interesting thread, Lucian. The comments are great!

I am a newbie in here, but have worked professionally with feedback as a communications consultant for many years, so I draw on my vocational background when commenting on this, allthough it is not from within music business.

I have learned that feedback is difficult in many ways, and we are always two to set up the feedback situation. It is at best a constructive dialogue and at worst a violent situation where you could get servere psychological bruises.

As a writer you often would want to give some clues about what kind of feedback you are looking for, but without setting up an pre-interpretation of the song, as you don't want a Rosenthal effect where you just are confirmed in your own words. Allthough this is often difficult to do, because when you form questions for your audience, it also means that you in the same communication implicit exclude certain kinds of feedback in advance, and you might not want that either. So setting up the feedback contains many difficult choices for the songwriter, I think.

On the other hand you, as the feedback giver (the listener) in your professional dialogues with colleges, could aim to put up a distinction between 'taste' and 'quality', where you reserve the word taste for the personal preference based on personal socialization and identity, and reserve the word quality for a more systematic kind of feedback, where you make visible the criteria for craftmanship etc., you would use to make judgements on others songs.

Ultimatly, if the criteria for your feedback is transparent for both the writer and the listener, the writer will be enabled to make his/her own evaluation of the feedback and to make it useful, and the listener will be able to set aside personal taste, which can be useful when engaging in the feedback endavour. In this way the feedback can have a set-up which both the writer and the listener can agree upon, and both draw constructive experiences from

But for 'just plain folks', a systematic approach like this is not something you can expect, because it takes a lot more work to perform, and that's why professional songwriting coaches charge for this service. Examples are feedback at SongU or TAXI where they have a selection of categories that they evaluate upon, and in eg. John Braheneys book on songwriting the TAXI evaluation chart is explained. You can agree or disagree on the evaluation categories, but they are transparent, and therefore something you can relate to.

Of course as a songwriter you are sometimes also interested in just a large quantity of spontaneous remarks and comments as you can get, which is something you can't buy at from the various coaches.

Still, I feel that a distinction between personal 'taste' and professional 'quality' could be useful for, at least to have in mind when asking for- and doing feedback, because it can enable you to participate in feedback exchanges at 'arms length', meaning in a professional manner without investing all your identity in appreciation and that kind of schmooze :-)

I prefer the truth...... Or at least the truth as each person sees it. A critique is just an opinion. One isolated opinion is not worth much. Several opinions saying generally similar things gives you something to work on.

Now there are some people here who say really nice things....does not matter how good or bad a song is they say really nice things. I think this is a waste of time and can be counter productive. If people want to hear JUST nice things then they can go to their mothers or aunty Betty's. GET THE FAMILY AROUND TO SAY REALLY NICE THINGS FULL OF FALSE PRAISE.

I try and point out areas where a song is weak or strong IMO and suggest ways it can be improved. This is done not as a criticism to hurt or discourage but as a helpful tool so they can improve.

I hope that when I post songs this is reciprocated. I would rather hear lots of true negatives than false positives which in realty are negatives

For those who write as a hobby or just for self amusement I do not see why there should be any difference in attitude as I would hope that everybody regardless of ability and reasons for writing want to write the best songs they can and wish to learn and improve from a critique.

Life is full of ups and downs and hard knocks. I do not see why people should get upset if told that their song was weak and needed a lot of improvement. I am sure in the rough big bad world they would have people saying negative things about other things. This is a tough business probably one of the toughest.... so if you are not thick skinned and able to take rejection you had better learn fast.

Try pitching a song and see what the pros actually think....if you think I am a tad harsh. LOL

I'd rather know the truth and get my songs in better shape and to have you here tell me, than to pitch them and have them to really shoot me down..so please I do want all of you to please help me here and tell me what my songs need..then i'll have a better chance when I do pitch them..thanks so much in advance to crit my lyrics..thanks glyn

Jim I can take the knocks, as I'm only learning, and I need all the help I can get, I just get confused a little, as I didn't do very well in school. The fellows opinion in which I received was to me a pretty good one, and has made me look at the song again, and think about what he's saying, and I have, and I will answer his questions. I think I'm going pretty good, for my second song.

Also I only give good feedback, as I'm only learning, and it wouldn't be fair to give someone advice on there song, when your not had enough experience with songwriting. But as a listener, the feedback I'm giving is only of encouragement, cause I've heard a lot of fantastic songs here, and I have them on my Itunes, and listen to them all the time. Yipee!

So keep giving me the knocks, and I will keep getting back up, I love it, and I can take it. "Get Over It" wouldn't be the song it is, if I didn't listen to others here, and I'm very thankful for all the feedback I get here. Yipee, cause what a song!

Michele

Having an artistic plan going in and trying to follow that always helps.
I admit that sometimes I like finding the type of answers I want to hear, especially if I worked extra hard on something.
I do not like fake praise and seek out those who will not like everything though.
But the main goal going in is to take an artistic goal, refine it, and see who may like it before I even consider going to the next level.

Reading the posts form hummingbird and the response from Jim Offerman, many that have had their recordings trashed to begin with generally will not stick around in a site for too long.
Because of course, the poster of that music wants people to like their recordings or are looking for who would like them.
I seem to be a rarity with that, though I do not follow the threads as closely here as some members do and could be mistaken.
I judge sites by the variety of areas in music they can help with and the reciprocation and interaction, not if they like my recordings..
I know this may sound immature, but if this was the only site I could be at, then it would matter if my recordings are liked.
I would not want to be thought of as not serious and post recordings so there will not be people who don't like them.
How would you be on that?

I am really here to get honest answers.
If I do not agree with the assessment I will state that and explain why.
I don't see the point in posting a recording if my mind is already made up.
But sometimes there is that song to where I do not know what else I could do for where I am at with it.
But somewhere down the line I might make sense out of what the reviewer found wrong.
Sometimes I understand what is seen as a flaw by the reviewer but I do not see that as a flaw.
Or if it was meant to be flawed, if that makes any sense.
And if the consensus of the site does not like my recordings, what would they find in my reviews of their songs?
I thought of all of this before I posted on the net.
I concluded that I would only state what I would find to be strenghhs in my reviews.
Whether the site favors my recordings are not.
I have to be fair to both.
Occasionally I like members music who have trashed mine and let them know.
Some may find that foolish.
Music is all about ego.
But I want to be all out in what I find as a strength and weakness and be honest to others and myself.

One thing I do do is thank the reviewer.
Whether the review is favorable or not.

Unless it was just some dumb one sentence insult.
That would not say anything.

I like getting right to the point, whether about my songs, or my thoughts on others songs. I figure it's just another opinion, so why not tell it as one hears it? Doesn't mean I'm right or wrong. If I hadn't been told bluntly to find a cowriter, I wouldn't have accepted Buddy as easily. ??? Don't know really. But it did put in my mind I was not the end all.

If I don't like something about a song, or voice, or whatever, and I am asked to review a song, I'll say exactly what I am thinking at the time of listening. It may come off as nasty or know it all, but it's just really how I'm thinking, which I figure many could feel the same things, being I'm not extraordinary in one thing or another. If I like something, I bet there are many who also will like it,,,,,or the other way around too. So, I say what's on my mind.

If wanting a pat on the back only, I wish the writer would just say so, to avoid any hurt feelings or mad feelings. Waste of all involved then, as I would only pick out the positives and pat away. But to just wants pats could mean not wanting to "maybe" improve with the many opinions of somewhat educated listeners not wanted.

John

I agree with saying what is on my mind at the time to a point.
I don't like much of what comprises professional music.
Many listenres do not either, although everyone is different on who that is they do not like.
That is the thing with reviews.
Sometimes I hear those that sound almost identical to me yet trash everything I have done.
But not everyone hears everything in the same way.

I guess I try to reflect the positives because of how blunt I could be.
It is not that I think I know better then the other.
I am not professional and would not go out of my way to state that even if I were.
I do not go out of my way to hide my flaws and use my hands with all my flawed songwriting and "playing".
But I feel honest and heartfelt when I do it.

I guess the only problem with reviews showing the negative is that we were not inside the other person's mind or feeling what they were feeling.
I just think that they are not here to want to suck to others and may be looking to make what they do even better.

If I think that I have to blow up the drawing board, then my heart and all that I knew may as well be blown up with it.

So I don't like much of what I hear and will comment on what I do.
Outside of the recording being too quiet to hear or something that does not have to do with the musicians art.

I can respect those that do give those critiques and state my flaws.
Yet I find myself in the contradiction that I can not.

Interesting points Matt. Lots to consider, huh?

I remember having two pro reviews on one song, where they were as opposite as they could be, line by line! It was odd to know a certain line could be great and terrible. As with most of the lines in that particular song. It got to be a lesson for us in pro reviews. Find the one that thinks it's all great and say "then use it, damnit"!

Weirder still, the same pro may have different opinions at different times!

I know a band who presented the exact same recording three times to one A&R rep. The first two times they were told it sucked, the third time he cut them a record deal!

Hi Lucian:

I'm a little pressed for time right now but I thought I'd give you my "take" on critiques. Most of us get a silent critique every time a CD rejction letter comes back from an artist, publisher, label, etc. At least we don't get verbally abused... but that does not stop the pain of rejection.

If I ask someone for a critique, I would prefer that they give me their honest opinion without being condescending or smug. Those who have the sense and tact to tell you why your song "fell short" with them... so you can learn from the experience, are special people. Too many of us "savage" the poor songwriter without thinking of their feelings.

IMHO... the Golden Rule applies in just about everything we say and do. (Wish I could obey it better... but, I'm just another ordinary human... just like everyone else.) Keep the faith, work hard, learn from your experience and keep grinding away at the old songmill. Remember, each critiquer has a different ear and a different opinion. That does not make them right... it just points out an area for you to look at... and take action or discard. Only you can make that decision.

Best,

Dave

Really, it all depends solely on the individual......but, for me, personally, I want to learn from what others post on my works.

If all that somebody can do is to try and put me down, or to create a negative, abusive atmosphere, then they deserve to be dealt with according to their actions.

When I see my own works reflected through the eyes of another, only then can I begin to see how it looks from the outside in......and it helps.

This is a really interesting thread... thanks for starting it!

Savaging, in my mind never accomplishes anything. I see savaging as being destructive not constructive.

Nothing wrong with a good constructive critique given in the spirit of wanting the help the person grow as a songwriter. We all need that.

But being offensive just does nothing.

I lurk a lot here and watched one lady make blatant fun of a person by writing a parody of what SHE saw in that person. It was really offensive (several of her buds and by the way "top" posters gathered around it and had a good laugh) and the person being made fun of is GONE and will not be back. (this person is a friend of mine from another songwriters board and for what it is worth she totally missed the mark... this is a really good person! )

While I understand that this is very much the exception here... it does not happen very often.... we all have to remember the impact that our words can have on people.

I think we should always start out with whatever we can find positive in the work and then get into how it might be improved and then END with something positive. Counselors use this method a lot... it's called a problem sandwich.

Then again, typed words are such a tricky thing. How are they going to be interpreted. Sometimes what WE think is being said in our responses is taken totally different. Not saying that we are totally responsible for how folks take our words but we should be careful to make the real intent of what we are saying evident.

Just my lousy 2 cents... for what it is worth!

Wow, I guess I hit upon a good topic when I posted this question, as it seems something other people have considered judging by the different comments. The issue with giving honest critiques was something that bothered and confused me a little when I first came here. I kind of got the impression sometimes people would be leaving small comments, like... "great song!" or "Love the vibe!" Because they wanted that person to come and leave a comment on their song, and get a reply closer to the "Magic Fire". I sometimes felt there was this "fireocracy" thing going on where songwriters are judged by their ability to make lots of fires, and it all seemed a little self defeating at times. If five or six people comment on each others songs in this way - maybe without even listening sometimes! - then that's five or six replies, and... the Magic Fire appears, and some think they have a great song, but maybe they don't at all! And maybe they decide to invest money on this Magic Fire song, which turns out to be waste of money, something they would have found out a lot earlier had people given honest feedback! OK, that's an extremely exaggerated example of what sometimes happens on the forum.

I'd like to respond to every post personally but I'd be up on all night and have to get back to finishing my banzai song so I'll come back another time and do that. I think this thread has kind of taken on a life of it's own anyway though.

I'd like to thank RobL and the Song Cabinet - welcome to JPF btw - for giving excellent examples of ways of giving feedback in different realms of life. I like the "compliment sandwich" notion. There was a good parody of that in the TV sit-com Extras. Song cabinet, I'm gonna have to read that post over a few times as it was a really interesting insight.

My own other experience of giving feedback was as a language teacher, in which any kind of negativity was a big no, no as it can do a lot of damage to a language learner's confidence and end up with them frightened to open their mouths, which is pretty counter productive obviously! And to indicate a student says something wrong is best done by non-verbal communication. A slight raise of the eyebrows, or subtle hand gesture which they get to learn the meaning of.

The difference between that and giving opinions on people's songs, is there is a certainty, given time and commitment, that they will get to where they want to go and will learn the language. But there isn't the same certainty for a songwriter, in fact, the odds are against it. So I think you have to bear in mind that in a particular song a songwriter has written is often invested a lot hope - not to mention time, effort and money - that they have put into it. Hope of a better life, recognition, or something like that. And that hope can often lead the writer's mind to almost make the song's shortcomings invisible. Personally I find that every time I write my new "best song" I am made free to look at my previous best song and see more clearly its shortcomings as my dependency on it is no longer there. And when there never comes a new best song, I think that's time for me personally to turn songwriting into a serious hobby rather than a serious profession - I could never give it up totally as it's too addictive! Dreams are great but there is a time to except the dream's over and find another dream - but only when you know that you gave it everything you had to give. That's something that also influences the way I give feedback here, when I can tell someone is giving it everything I sense there's someone who may well have that great song in them.

Thanks Lucian

Since the net, more times than not, I think, that is true not just in reviews, but in posts of opinions and emails. I know first hand how that can be so way off base from my thinkings and intentions.

Best to talk about personal things in the phone, at least. In person the best.

Info is cool. But when it gets feelings involved, typed words just don't tell the whole story. (Unless it's just reading a book).

Hi Lucian there have been some great posts in this thread. I think a lot can be learned if people re read it. I was intrigued by a statement you made about negativity being a big no. I do not take this view. I say if we do not know it is broke and have people show us where..... how are we gonna fix it. This is a positive. As I said in an earlier post false positives give out the wrong messages and are actually negative.

When training a dog you have to give praise for good behaviour but be firm when it does something wrong. Otherwise the dog gets confused and does not know right from wrong. Watch any dog training progs and you will see the damage done by giving out wrong or confusing messages.

John hit on a very important point....How many times have we said something and later thought I did not mean that. I put it the wrong way. Now people are confused. During a face to face coversation with body language and interaction this can be easily sorted. However as purely the written word we sometimes get it wrong. That is human nature and allowances should be made.

I sometimes lack tact and diplomacy...but that does not mean I deliberately set out to upset or have ill intentions. I just say what I feel. Providing that people understand and accept this then critiques can be blunt and negative provided they are fair and well meaning. I try and give encouragement but point out weaknesses as well.

Finally there is a mutual backpatting society in most walks of life. Some people see it as an easy option and like the cosy feeling. I think JPF has a certain element of that going on. That is all very well but sometimes we stagnate, do not learn and cannot improve when faced with so much BS praise. I know some people concentrate on pointing out the negatives to somewhat redress the balance.

I want the truth.

Tom

Hi Lucien,
Thank you and good morning from sunny Tasmania! I think this is a great question and has prompted a wonderful debate. As Moker, Kaley and many others have pointed out it really depends on what people preface their piece with when they put it up for appraisal - if it's a working tape, draft, finished product, etc.

I think we here are all agreed that bad manners are not tolerated and there's never a need to be rude - sledging is not criticism.

I agree with your initial post Lucien, sometimes telling a beginning performer &/or composer that their piece is great when it doesn't technically cut it can do more harm than good to their future development. However, having said that, I think it's essential to provide true critique, which I was always taught includes justifying taking a particular position. I always get asked to appraise people's compositions &/or performance when I'm running group workshops and I insist on doing it privately. That in itself sorts out a lot of the 'chaff' who are public approval junkies and gives me a chance to get into critique mode.

One of the biggest factors that can't be discounted no matter how much we tell ourselves we can be dispassionate is that there's some things that we just don't like! That can be styles, vocal inflections, instrumentation...... never forget that we can't please everyone! All is subjective.

I am reminded of my mother's two favourite maxims..... you'll always attract more flies with honey than vinegar and if you can't say something positive - say nothing!

Hi Debra good points I agree. However My mother always said too many sweet things ARE BAD FOR YOU they rot your teeth. LOL

There has to be a balance of positives and negatives.

I was at the Soundclick forum and there is a topic there titled "How Do You Spot Talent?"
I pointed out that I feel hopeful that one does not have to be some great prog performer to write a good song.
That it does not take all kinds of technical skill or virtuosity and many in the mainstream are not all that skilled, yet they can write a good song.
Members there actually disagreed with that. That it takes technical skill and vituosity.
If I had to do write something compatible to Brahm's fifth Symphony, no I would not post and the fact that I don't have to have that skill makes me feel hopeful.

I have heard beginners and amateurs that sound better to me then in the mainstream.
I am sure many of us had.

Get them on a cover song and many of them have at best average talent.
Yet there are great performer's that can not write a song.

It is who is persistent, thick skinned enough, and who is found with the right set of ears that tends to make it.

So reviews are only what is made out of them.
Even those that go on i tunes or u tube that may have questionable quality to many.

Looking at this post. maybe I should say what I think without being off putting.
But I would rather try to contribute with something more concrete then an opinion. But I don't want to be the type that has more questions then answers either.
Many would not agree with my critiques.
I don't view just a mainstream or professional song in itself as a good song.
There are many variables.

Matt you are wrong. You do have to have oodles of talent skill and expertise to write a good song. It does not matter the genre or style

Do not be confused with success in the throw away pop market. I agree there are lots of mediocre stuff in the mainstream. Most of it is junk. Few of the performers have real talent. Most of the success is down to production FX and hype.

There is a difference between success and talent. A good musician can tell the difference.

What kind of talent though:

Bob Dylan - Great tune smith and competent guitarist, yet not much so for vocals.
Yet they are his vocals and he is very unique in his delivery.
Not to mention his greatest asset.
His songwriting.

More Modern Examples:

Sammy Hagar - Great technically trained singer that was in Van Halen
David Lee Roth - Not as technically skilled as a singer, nor like Hagar played a guitar. But there is no other like him and can pen the unique lyrics to fit his unique vocal style.

The talents that go outside of virtuosity and technical skill.
Although if you were to play behind a mediocre singer/songwriter like that but with a unique songwriting and delivery, that would definitely take technical talent. Just to keep up with a mind like that.
But the most technically skilled ones tend to be sidemen or in the band.

That is the unfair hand played in great technically skilled musicians and the practice with that.
Makes the scene interesting though.

Learning some basic theory is fundamental.
Everything I do no matter how abstract, there is someone that can spot the given influences.
Music to some degree or another is a borrowers game.
But there is more of a challenge to the art sometimes not to look at any given set of rules and just pick up the instrument and let it speak in it's own way, and then see what can be done with it to make it musically understandable as much as I can.
It probably will not lead to a contract, but it is more fulfilling then being in one style and a soundalike.

Because I am hardly unique in my delivery otherwise.

This is interesting...I looked up the definition of critique, which told me it was a method of criticizing. So I looked up Criticize:

1. to censure or find fault with.
2. to judge or discuss the merits and faults of: to criticize three novels in one review.
–verb (used without object)
3. to find fault; judge unfavorably or harshly.
4. to make judgments as to merits and faults.

I guess even the word "Critique" comes freighted with an expectation of negativity.

A word of advice to anyone receiving or giving a critique: be strong, be brave, take deep breaths. It's like getting a shot...you know it's going to hurt a little, but you do it to get better. If you're giving the shot, have a frickin' heart and do it with care. If you're getting the shot, prepare for a little pain, accept it, and focus on the value rather than the unpleasantness.

I know I have hogged up this thread quite a bit and will step back for a while after this.

People should respect that they could be savaged no matter what.
In my case, I especially knew that could be the case.

Doing covers and making songs in that vein would have benefited me more on a professional scale.
That often is the amateur way to show what they know and how much theory they absorbed.
But I wanted something more colorful and less samey.

Professionals do not seem to like what took more of the artistic challenge and drive to make sense out of the mismash.
As I expected.

But how many probably come here to get discovered instead of trying to fulfill a creative desire and work around that?

A lot of what is in the mainstream does tend to have to do more with parakeeting someone else then something more individually driven.
Though not all.

So if someone is already in doubt of what they do is professional, yet expect professional praise, there is no point asking about the recordings.
If you want to hone up your creative desires, expect critiques over praise.

Half of the people that said they liked me were just being nice, though I have reason to believe that half of them meant it.
I want sites to where I can be sure.
Does not mean I will agree with it, but if I already felt I had the song down I would not post it in the mp3 forum to begin with.
That is how threads like that ought to be approached.
Members have been pretty good here about evaluating strengths and weaknesses.
But who does not want them to love em, love em, love em.

Either's fine w/me.

Apologies for starting this thread and not replying much to it, have been bit tied up with a couple of songs I've been working on which I've now finished, so I'll come on here tomorrow and post replies after I have had some much needed sleep.

Thanks Lucian :-)

This thread has made me realize something, that JPF - great site that it is - is not right for me and I'm not right for it. It's a site for people wanting to write commercial songs - and ideally people of a good God fearing persuasion! Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I've realized that I personally am an artist before anything and will never be able to compromise that for anything. So I give reviews from an artistic viewpoint not a commercial one, but the commercial viability of a song is what most people are aiming for here, so apologies if I trashed any songs here from an artistic viewpoint when it was a perfectly good song from a commercial view.

But this site has been very helpful to me and I've learnt a lot here, especially from Big Jim, who has offered lots of good advice.

Never Give Up!

Lucian.

PS. Moker, I was messing around with that Zion song you posted and I half finished this song, probably called Bridge of Sighs, and if I ever do my album or whatever, you will be credited as a co-writer - you never know it could be that big hit! Be well.

Hi Lucian Thanks for being so frank and honest. Yes there are a lot of people on this forum who write or aspire to write commercial songs especially in the country genre and most are from a godfearing persuasion. There are also a lot who write in different genres and from an artistic POV where success is not measured by $$$$ and songs are not judged on how closely they fit the preconceived mould. Stick around you will discover who they are if you have not spotted them already. BTW I checked out your song posted on the Mentors Forum. It has potential. One or two pointers might help.... if interested in a critique PM me.

On every songwriting site I have encountered, most people critique from the standpoint of commercial success. But that shouldn't keep you from participating and offering up songs written primarily from an artistic basis.

Hell, I never know why I write half of what I write, but once it's finished, I like to toss it against the wall and see if it sticks. And JPF is my favorite wall.