JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum Where is the morality of the young people going?

Most politicians are corrupt liars and hypocrites. This current crop do not appear to be any different. They are only just spokesmen for the real powers who control everything, bankers and big business.

Men have been running the world for ever it's dirty and corupt... maybe it's time to let a woman have a go... can't do any worse...

Cheers

Well if she is anything like Maggie Thatcher then GOD BLESS AMERICA.

Men. Women Bunkum in my book.
There is good and bad in both of them.
Unfortunatly, the will to become politicians seems to be most strong in the bad of both of them.
Maybe if all political candidates were made to sit through the move Once, at least twice or thrice, it may inspire them to goodness.
Graham

I can assure you Big Jim
Hillary is NO Margaret Thatcher

Danger, Bill Robinson.

You can take THAT one either way![LOL}

Strictly for the over-50 crowd. Hint: b&w tv.

Oh oh, this is turning to politics, even more explosive than religion, head for the bunkers.

I hear it's supposed to rain this afternoon.

Um didn't this start as a morality and young people thread? Wow talk about a major diversion! Someone musta blown a tire somewhere I'll help pick up the chunks. Morality and young people ok lets see. Um hmm ok I guess I'll comment on the current issue. Yeah I don't see Hilary as being like margaret thatcher. Heck I don't even see her being like Britney Spears Federline. Heck I'd vote Britney over Hilary (at least I'd know who was in charge lol) All joking aside I think the only cantidate I'd vote for so far is Ole Rudolph Guiliani but that's me.
Derek

Derek

The connection to morality and the younguns is obvious. It's not about politics.

Hillary Clinton.....Bill Clinton. Adultery, Lieing under oath, Real estate and bank fraud. And they got away with it.

Great role models for the younguns.
Of course the rest of them are probably just as bad.

If Bill would have been married to Maggie Thatcher he woulda wound up a eunuch.

I get it, Lost In Space. Is Becky Thatcher running? What would Tom Sawyer think?

Hell
I been lost in space for years

But sheesh I never heard that one before, LOL

Hey Bill, I was responding to Richards hint. In an earlier post he said "Danger Bill Robinson" mimicking the robot from "Lost in space". Ben

Big Jim,
I would agree with you that most politicians are liars and hypocrites. I usually don't pay that much attention to politics, but my kids turned me on to Ron Paul and his record speaks for itself. The way he has voted over the years is consistent. He isn't wishy washy like the others. He says what he thinks no matter which crowd he is speaking to. I like that. The others change their story depending on which group they are talking to at the moment. He wants to do away with the IRS and have no more INCOME TAXES. I love that. He wants to get the government out of our business and give us back our privacy. He says the government is wasteful and wants to do away with some of the wasteful programs. He doesn't believe in abortion because he is an Ob-Gyn doctor. He wants us out of the war. You get the idea.

I hope we get even a small portion of this much action on the Mentor Critique Forum when it starts up again later this month.

Al

Hi Ladynred cant say I agree with some of those things but do not really want a debate. However in my experience some things sound great but just do not work. Or are promised but never given.
Re No income tax sounds great. One tiny prob how are you going to pay for services.
Re abortion I think it is down to an individuals choice and beliefs. I am against anybody who wants to take folks right away and dictate to others what is right and wrong. A certain Mr hitler tried that.

LOL Ben
so was I.

Big Jim,
Let me ask you this, if someone kills a woman who is pregnant, they get charged with two counts of murder. Why is it that a woman can kill the child herself and be held blameless? Both are murder, but one gets away with it? How can that be right? If the woman doesn't want a child then she needs to take steps not to get pregnant--practice birth control or abstinence. Why is it right if she makes a stupid judgement call and gets pregnant to kill the baby? There are lots of people waiting to adopt babies in America and even going overseas to find them. Let the people give them up for adoption if they don't want them. People need to TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for their actions. Maybe that's why our children have the morals (or lack of) that they do, because they have learned from grownups that if you mess up you take care of it any way you can and not be held accountable?

I am more concerned with the morality of our older folks.

Kevin,
I am concerned with ALL, kids and grownups.

First religion, then politics, now abortion! Is there any other volatile subject we can hit on? Like who's Anna Nicole's baby's father?, Did O.J really do it? Whats wrong with Britney?... What about the Death penalty, Illegal Immigration...C'mon lets go for the whole enchilada!

Enchiladas irritate my bowels.

I asked God about Ron Paul and abortions. He said Ron is a bit of a doofus, but it's okay to vote for him if I want to. He said if I think abourtion is murder than I shouldn't get one. God is the bomb.

Okay, you guys. I was just trying to give people information so they can go to the Ron Paul site and find out more about him. The media doesn't give him much coverage. You can make up your own mind, I just wanted everyone to make an informed decision.

Don't get me started on illegal immigration. They're trying to give illegals our social security money now--what little there is left of it after the politicians have spent it for years.

And by the way, Truman, it's not cute or cool to call people names. Don't call him a doofus if you haven't even looked up what he stands for.

Every forum needs a thread like this. Kind of cleansing. Maybe we should make it a whole section and call it something like "Bombs Away"...or "Assault and Pepper" or something.

It should be called, "Get if off your chest" forum. LOL

Hi Ladynred I do not really want an argument. However could not let that statement pass. First I have never heard of a dual murder charge for killing a pregnant woman. Second there are many reason for having an abortion other than the silly ones you state.
Ask yourself this.. If it is a sin then should she answer to God or YOU? I am not prepared to make this kind of judgement and would let people have their own choice with help support and counseling. No religion or ethical views should be imposed on folk who do not follow THAT belief. Abortion is a terrible decision for anyone to make and sometimes there are good and justifiable reasons. This is not helped by holy folk whooping murderer and protesters holding placards outside clinics. It is not up to them to judge.
I think of the hypocracy of people who start or support illegal wars where millions are killed and then get on a soap box about abortion.

Bob, here is the Scoop, turns out that OJ was a preacher, who ran for office, so he could have his illigetimate love child with brittney spears aborted for the sanity of tabloid readers... but what i am really trying to say is they should institute the death penalty for being an illegal alien...

and if that didn't offend everyone... it turns out that george bush rudy gulliani and Barrak Obama have been found to be involved in a three way gay love affair with monkeys....

(none of this is true. but since it is the irritating thread, why not?

cheers,
steve

Jim,

Didn't Scott Peterson get charged with double murder?

-steve

In places where abortion is not legal... It is a punishable offence. How punishable depends on the status given by law to the unborn child.

It is not necessarially against Gods will to kill an unborn child. If a woman who commits adultery is to be stoned to death... I do not remember reading (if she happen to be pregnant) you need to wait until she gives bith before carrying out the sentence.

OBTW I personally am against abortion... but not being a woman do not have the right to tell one what they must do. Each must do as their heart allows all I can do is support their right to choose.

Oh, I see. Then you must think you are exempt because I seem to recall your agreeing that most politicians are "liars and hypocrites."

Just what is the definition of a hypocrite, Lady?

Hey Noel is this the same America that boasts to be the land of the free? Or should I say land of the free if you can afford freedom and agree with religious dogma.

This is the Twilight Zone of all threads!

ya and YOU"RE Rod Serling BC...Narrating the thread in the background....do do dod dod od dod od do dod od dod od od do do

Brian has been CONSPICUOUSLY absent here. If he gets started there will be 5 more pages at least

You are now entering a time and space known as "The Morality Zone"

Brian is in here Herbie.
Up where the original subject was still the issue the string was supposed to be about.
Once.
I have little doubt he will weigh in again if it gets to the mnasty stage.
Meantime. It is fun watching where the thread is going.
Or not going.
Re the double murder thing.
Being charged, and being convicted with an offence are seperate issues.
Has anybody ever been convicted of killing an unborn child other than in an abortion case?
Graham
Graham

Jim I'm not American, but I believe it is

So what I see on this board are (mostly) a bunch of reasonably intelligent people with wildly divergent ideas about religion in general and Christianity in particular.

For the most part, they've been exposed to about the same ideas -- being from pretty much the same culture and all. But even believers don't agree entirely with each other. Neither do those who don't believe.
And it's been that way for a very long time -- none of these arguments are exactly new. Some people might be right -- there's apparently no way of empirically knowing, at least until you die and it's too late to change your mind -- which would mean that virtually everyone else is wrong.

So maybe one of the believers can tell me how a loving God, likened to a father, could create the evidently confusing circumstances of this world (and even if man or Satan messed it up, He created man and Satan) and punish, horribly and forever, the creatures that He decided should exist if they don't get it right.

What's the point? That just doesn't seem divine to me. If for some reason He decided he needed to come to Earth/send His son to take on their sins and bring them salvation (Once again, a decision that's never explained in the Bible. Why does God have to do that? He's the rule maker.), that seems divine.

But the judgement part -- the fear-based, I know where you'll be on judgement day -- subtext of what a lot of believers say, well that sounds man made. I can't see why a loving God would want followers based on fear anymore than he'd want a world full of followers without free will. There's no free will in fear.

Fear is what man uses to subjugate man.

"I agree, there've been many atrocities done in the name of God...also in the name of Democracy, Socialism, Royal Families, National Pride, Cultural Pride, Racial Pride, Neighborhood Pride, School Pride, Family Pride, Personal Pride, Capitalism, Morality, Fairness, Decency, Safety and Security. Unless those things are also wrong, then blaming them, instead of blaming folks who would use them as an excuse to do bad things, is flawed logic. Come on people, it's personal responsibility, don't look outward for reasons why kids are immoral, they're immoral because we are."

Mike, you seem like a reasonable guy, but this argument is what's illogical. You're setting up religion (God) as something separate from Democracy, Socialism, Racial "Pride" Nationalism, etc.
As an agnostic, I'd have to point out that everything you listed is a form of tribalism -- everyone thinks their "tribe" is correct and therefore threatened by the other tribes. That's where the conflict comes from.

Logically, religion, a belief in one idea about God, is also a form of tribalism.
Logically, there is no difference between the violence committed in the name of God and in the name of national pride or ethic strife.
And logically, yes, all of those things are bad if they lead to violence. People don't decide to be "bad," then look around for democracy or national pride as a reason. Tribalism is hard-wired and comes out in various ways depending on the circumstances. Depending on the apparently hard-wired fear that so many people have exploited.
You really think everyone in Rwanda came to a conscious, moral decision to warp some admirable pride in being a Tutsi to slaughter Hutu children with machetes?

Kaly, you also seem like a lovely person. But what you apparently don't know about science could -- and has -- filled any number of books.

The Big Bang -- a horribly inapt metaphor of a title -- had nothing to do with an atom or anything else exploding. It's way weirder than that. But it's called the Big Bang theory because it's survived all the tests designed to disprove it (the scientific method.) There is evidence we can see -- background radiation, etc. that is predicted by the Big Bang theory and is pretty convincing.

Saying that God is the sustainer of gravity just shows that you either don't understand the science, or are just rejecting it, I'm sorry. Gravity warps space and time in a way almost analagous to how a bowling ball placed on a bed will "warp" the mattress. Do you think a "sustainer" is necessary for that to happen?

As far as answered prayers, honestly, do you think the children in Darfur pray for mercy? That there isn't one believing person who died of cancer who didn't offer a heartfelt prayer? Which is harder to believe, that things happen at random or that a loving God acts randomly?

There is a case right now in Jackson, MS where a woman is on trial for killing a woman and her unborn child. Seems this lady was having an affair with the murdered woman's fiance.

The Scott Peterson case in another example. This is from an online article:
On March 16, 2005, Peterson was sentenced to death and is on death row in San Quentin State Prison. He has not admitted any guilt.

Judge sentences Scott Peterson to death for killing his wife and unborn son.
REDWOOD CITY, Calif. — A judge formally sentenced Scott Peterson to die by lethal injection Wednesday during a dramatic proceeding in which raw emotion poured from nearly every participant but the convicted double-murderer himself.


This was a quote. You notice it says convicted double-murderer.

"I agree, there've been many atrocities done in the name of God...also in the name of Democracy, Socialism, Royal Families, National Pride, Cultural Pride, Racial Pride, Neighborhood Pride, School Pride, Family Pride, Personal Pride, Capitalism, Morality, Fairness, Decency, Safety and Security. Unless those things are also wrong, then blaming them, instead of blaming folks who would use them as an excuse to do bad things, is flawed logic. Come on people, it's personal responsibility, don't look outward for reasons why kids are immoral, they're immoral because we are."
-Mike Dunbar_

"Mike, you seem like a reasonable guy, but this argument is what's illogical. You're setting up religion (God) as something separate from Democracy, Socialism, Racial "Pride" Nationalism, etc.
As an agnostic, I'd have to point out that everything you listed is a form of tribalism -- everyone thinks their "tribe" is correct and therefore threatened by the other tribes. That's where the conflict comes from." -Joyboy



Joyboy,

My statement was not meant to set up God as separate from Democracy, etc., it was to show that God is no more the reason for atrocities than any of these other things I’ve mentioned (some of which are “tribal,” then there are safety and security, which are not “tribalism,” but concepts based on state of being and perception.) I see my statement as logical. When God, or Tribe, or Safety, or Comfort are used as excuses for atrocity, it is the perpetrator of the atrocity that is responsible, not God or the Tribe, or a concept or a location. Ronald Reagan said it wonderfully: “We must reject the idea that every time a law is broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker.” In my argument, beyond society, I’m including any excuse a group or individual wants to use so as not to accept responsibility for their own bad behavior. So, I’m not separating God or religion from Democracy, Darwinism, Liquor, Family History, Other People in general or any other group, tribe, idea, or object. It’s not that folks are thinking their “tribe” is correct, it’s that some folks will use “tribe,” as well as anything else they can rationalize as an excuse to behave badly.

As to why bad things happen to good people, I’d suggest that you ask Jesus for the answer. He’s the expert on that.

Mrs. McInnis,

Here's a link to the first U.S. case of which I know:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9401E0DA113AF93BA25756C0A9679C8B63


Here's another:
http://www.boston.com/news/local/ar..._in_slaying_of_teenager_her_unborn_baby/

And another:
http://www.azcentral.com/12news/news/articles/0608mr-fetus0609-CP.html?&wired

And another:
http://www.spokesmanreview.com/local/story.asp?ID=121270

There appear to be several more.

I believe murder is a sin and should always be a crime. I don't believe killing is always a sin or should always be a crime (there's a difference between murdering and killing, I'm not going to go into it now). I don't think abortion is always murder, nor capital punishment. I do think both are, sometimes.

Where is the morality of the young people going?

Going ? It went out the window 50 years ago.

It's all Elvis and Jerry Lee and the rest of that bunch at Sun Records fault.

Hi Mike I read your links. The case of the crack cocaine addict found guilty of murdering her unborn child is bizarre to say the least. Instead of sending this poor unfortunate for counseling and rehabilitation to get her off drugs they send her to prison and make her a murderer. Why did they not just drag her out of the courtroom and stone her to death like in the old days perhaps a more fitting sentence from such a fair and merciful judicial system. OJ got let off because he was too stupid to put his fingers in a glove wow.

Jim, I have no idea why the jury sentenced as they did, I wasn't there. I'm also not sure there isn't couseling and rehabilitaion included in the addicted woman's prison sentence. What we read is a brief newspaper account of a trial.

Interesting use of your words "...they send her to prison and make her a murderer..." So they did it?

I'll be serving on a jury in two weeks. If I'm chosen to sit on a trial, I'll be able to consider all the evidence and argument presented to me by both sides and given instructions as to how a jury is legally obligated to reach a verdict in cases such as the one upon which I serve. If I'm released, then, from any duty to remain silent, I'll be happy to tell you why I voted the way I did for acquittal or conviction, and how the decision was arrived at for any possible sentencing. I will not, however, judge a jury.

In the O.J. case, I always thought if there was anything "stupid" it was neglecting to consider the leather gloves that had been soaked in blood then dried might be shrunken and stiff, so therefore difficult to put on one's hand. I watched that on tv as it happened. O.J. didn't look "stupid" he looked surprised that he couldn't get on those gloves...as if they were his gloves. The test produced a result, it was a test the prosecutors offered as proof and it failed. The failed result was then able to be used by the defense. Part of the marvelous system of justice that we adapted from the English.

Thanks for the song, folks!

Is Johnnie to Blame
(c)2008 words and music by Mike Dunbar

Johnnie shot his mama,
Two times in the back,
She just cashed her paycheck,
He wanted it for crack,
The neighbor heard the gunshot,
So she called the cops,
Johnnie ran out of the door,
They ordered him to stop

Chorus:
They'll blame it on the system,
They'll blame it on tv,
They'll blame it on the gun,
Or say it was you and me,
Did the church pull the trigger,
Did the schoolteacher take aim,
Did society kill his mama,
Or is Johnnie to blame

The hands start to wringing,
And so do the phones,
A case to help their cause,
To prove that they're not wrong,
Just look at poor dear Johnnie,
He must have been insane,
Now Johnnie feels important,
His mama just felt pain

Chorus

Yeah Mike the English have got a lot to answer for. When I said make her a murderer. What I mean is make her become a murderer in the eyes of the law. Just an expression.
I do not know the full facts of the case....true. But there would have to be something else much more that happened other than just her drug habit poisoning the baby inside her to make her a murderer in my eyes.
Re OJ We got the trial every night live I stayed up and watched it. The prosecuting team were pretty incompetent but even so the evidence was cut and dry. Even without anY actual smoking gun video OR eye witness account of him caught in the act it was obvious he was guilty. Worst miscarriage of justice I have ever seen. The jury must have been pretty naive and gullible to fall for the defence theatrics. Anyway it always stuck in my mind especially the comment from a british journalist. When asked what he thought of the result and his comments on american justice he replied. "America has got the best judicial system money can buy."
There was a UK case a while back where a woman was charged with the death of her young baby through neglect. It transpires that this woman was special needs and did not have the mental capacity to look after a baby. She did not think she was doing any wrong. After this was established in court the medical professionals and Social Services were criticised for allowing this woman to "fall through the net" and not give her the support she needed. Nobody from these services was prosecuted for murder. Perhaps they all should have stood trial.....