JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum Where is the morality of the young people going?

Some facinating points of view... Big Jim... you are correct, God is a kind and loving god, anyone who has half an once of real faith will tell you that. Those who believe but have no faith will not agree.

There is truth in the bible, just as there is truth in much mythology. The bible is a tool for teaching, Sadly on many Christians the teachings of Jesus has been lost. Tolerance, forgiveness, compassion, sacrifice, shareing... have become mere words... or instead of being given freely come at a price... Selfishness and greed have become icons and the path to success in business, even though the majority of people are themselves not greedy...

I have asked many questions of so called religious people about the little curiosities that encourage me to keep picking a bible up to read it. I have yet to receive any kind of well thought out or reseached answer, My conclusions at the moment is religious people have to much faith in the goodness and honesty of men who crave power, and very little use for truth and justice unless it concerns them directly. Sadly I also find that these same people have little or no faith in god but are too afraid not to believe.

Cheers

I agree with eb that the legal system in our country is the pits. Poor children whose parents don't have money can be railroaded by small-town policemen because the kids look or dress differently (read up on the West Memphis Three). Then murderers like OJ Simpson get off scott free. Back to the schools--When they took God out of the schools, the country started going downhill. A lot of parents don't take their kids to church so the kids never hear about God or any kind of morals. Parents have to accept responsibility for teaching their kids right from wrong. When you have so many people in this country just living together and having a houseful of children for other taxpayers to support that breeds more of that type of behavior in future generations. It just goes on and on. Then there's more and more domestic disputes that end up with someone shot or stabbed to death. These children keep seeing this type of behavior again and again and think it's normal. It is scary to see where the country is headed.

Big Jim,
There has to be a black and white. If you are wiring a house, don't you have certain wires to connect together? If you don't do it the right way, there could be major problems. There is no gray area there. Some things just have to be done a certain way. The Bible tells you the way to do things. But God gives everyone a choice--He does not force anyone to believe, but you have to know that you will face the consequences. It's up to you. God has done everything He can to help. I just feel bad for those who don't believe. I have such comfort knowing someone is looking out for me--and I have had lots of situations that I know could only have turned out well because of Him being there when I needed Him.
Anyway, just my two cents. This has been an interesting discussion.

Actually, I think it was those awful peanut butter squares they served us in the lunchroom.

Just think about what you said here. "A lot" of parents make the decision not to teach their kids about God. This, of course is their right under the First Amendment (or do you wish to revoke religious freedom?). So, you seem to feel that the government should step in and utilize the schools to force God upon those children (also in opposition to the First Amendment). What are you, a Commie?

It amazes me that people who think the government has made a mess of pretty much all it has touched, want to use it an an instrument to teach religion.

I'll tell you what, I'll go along with your plan to put religious teaching back in the schools on this condition: I'll pick the religion and you MUST go along with it. Deal?

And by the way, if God is EVERYWHERE, how can you say He has been taken out of the schools? Do you believe that mankind actually has dominion over God? That sounds like heresy to me. Commies and heretics!! My God, what will we do?

With all due respect wiring a house has absolutely nothing to do with the subject. We are talking about judgement and God. If everything was black and white then there would be no debate in the first place as the existence of any God would be a given and proved beyond all reasonable doubt. At present there are many many religions and faiths. They all have totally different ideas and teachings so who or what is correct. They all cannot be right. There is a grey area for a start. How can you follow all of them? You cannot. Even the famous bible is so full of grey areas contradictions inaccuracies and confusion plus all the extra things folk have lumped into it's teachings and all the stuff left out. Yes if you did not already know there are a number of books missing from the bible. These were removed by priests who had a debate to decide what to keep and what to reject. They decided that some of the more dubious contradictory stuff should be obliterated. So it was. Where does the black end and the white start? It doesn't it is all grey.
My problem with religion is that folk have blind faith in something they know very little about. To an outsider and non believer like me the whole thing is full of ignorance, stupidity and hypocracy.
The recent events in Pakistan are just another example of why I am totally against any form of the organised hatred thing called religion.
Anyways to sum up if there is a God and a judgement day I have little to fear. I wish I could say the same for some religious folk.
I will be judging God and his answers. Given his supremacy and perfection and all seeing eye etc etc etc I think he has far more to explain away and answer for than I have.

"Even the famous bible is so full of grey areas contradictions inaccuracies and confusion plus all the extra things folk have lumped into it's teachings"

Could you give us a few examples of these contradictions and inaccuracies that you speak of.

Certainly Everett start at Genesis and read throught to Revelations. You will see them.

The pagans were condemned for their use of idols but how many statues are in churches today?
A lot of the pagan rituals are also carried over into religious rights.
Christmas started off as the winter soltice.
More ammo for discussion!

I see it another way: they want the government to look the other way as they pressure school officials to allow religious teaching and demonize people who object. That's more consistent with the party line.

And of course, only Christian teaching is permissible. Talk about teaching Islam or Hinduism instead and watch them get all worked up.

As far as I know if you want religion you can still get it at any number of parochial schools.
According to the constitution church and state are supposed to be separated.

Well people,

It looks like this one is never going to get back to the real subject, and I tried. Most will never find the answer to the religion question until it's too late to do anything about it. I'd rather work on the morality, or lack of it, of our youth; not to mention us. My last words on this one...

The forefathers vision of the melting pot was to peacefully assimilate with whatever religion we may have.
Granted, the forefathers had their hypocrasies with slavery, but eventually society grew past that and I believe the forefathers dream played a most signifigant role in the abolitioin of slavery. To be fair, it did take western culture and religion to do away with slavery.
I'm all for anyones expression of their beliefs with religion in schools.
But that also applies to non-Christian religions not enforce their ways.
And when it gets to the subject of taking a veil off for an I.D card, or ways in a faith that are primitive and uncivilized, when that is in question and even given the time by an attorney, it is time that peole step back again at what was intended by the countries earlier documents.
Christianity after all with the non-hypocrite is supposed to be accepting and has more to do with the personal relationship with God, as well as aid the disadvantage.
Missions were started up by the Christian Church and long before there was a welfare system - That was our welfare system and for many still is.
It should'nt be a matter of which way is better as much as how would you like to live.
If you think another religion or goverment can do it better, by all means live there.
Athiests and ACLU types would have someone think they are an biggots for not accepting anothers belief and in turn can be as biggoted as they say the Christians can be.
Frustration over not taking a veil off for an I.D. is just one example of what gets interpreted as biggoted nowadays. Not to mention in our Holiday season of having a Christmas dispay.
We have ceremonies for other religious practices.
But every one wants to have equal time. But Chrisianity like it our not, is still the biggest church in America.
If someone wants equal time given to the practices of the Middle Eastern faith and is upset, then such people may want to ponder how far a Christian would get with their expression in a lot of these Middle Eastern countries.
You will know what I mean when I say how intolerant the left has become to get into this anything goes mentality.
Yeah, anything goes unless someone screams ouch and says something against that way.
It would be better if Social Libraterians and Christians could just go back to that dream of having harmony and acceptence and help those that are truely victims of the system rather than being offended and calling eachother biggots.
I would'nt let either an athiest, homo, or Christian try to make me accept their way just like I would'nt ask them to accept my way.
That is my definition of respecting others.
Somehow, that compass for the line that gets crossed between unacceptence and bigotry has been lost.
There is a huge difference.
Saying be who you want to be but don't try to change me or where I live is not being a biggot.
Why would people want to move away from an oppressive goverment and change that countries rules of acceptence anyway?
It does kind of leave the suspicion that other goverments and religions are out to take over the west.
It is not just a bunch of uptight Christians that believe that.
There are also those from those opressed lands that do not want things imposed from where they left.
People going through that have it the hardest.

Well lets get back on track



Seems the real problem is with the mealy mouth wimpy teachers at these schools. They shoulda just kicked the crap out of the punks and gave them all F's. The Teachers are probably all members of the ACLU.



Again it was probably the ACLU that cause this. If you have no fear of punishment you don't have much need for remorse. Build more jails I say. Bring back the whip. A good lashing by the principle will take care of it. A good rap across the knuckles with a ruler does wonders.



Well said Everett. A man is no better than his word. Without Honor you have NOTHING.



WAALLLLL you can't have it both ways Everett.
Our Constitution was set up to protect us from the church running our government. Separation of church and state. It's been a long time since I was in school but I do remember reading what happened in countries where the state was run by churches. It wasn't pretty. I would not want to be in that situation. I might just rebel.
The "Public" schools are run by the state and the Federal government contributes money. So, they are part of the government. So you cannot have the church involved. I don't think they removed God from schools. I think they removed the church(whichever church you want to call it is up to you)
It did not have anything to do with religion, it had to do with the U.S. Constitution.
If it was not in our constitution they would have had a much harder time of getting it removed.
Get the Government out of our schools and you can have all the religion you want.
BUT.....which religion, which God?
How about the one that tells them to kill all who do not believe in their God. Should that one be taught.
Or Jewish, Should they forbid mentioning Jesus in school but read the Tora?
Or Voodoo....wooohoooo Zombies and cutting off chickens heads at recess?
Disclaimer. I am only using these as examples I mean no disrespect.

Morality has nothing to do with God. You want a kid to behave you must teach him right from wrong, that is morality. If he lies you kick him in the ass. If he steals you kick him in the ass, If you tell him to mow the grass and he doesn't you kick him in the ass.
Bring back corporal punishment. NOT beatings or abuse. But a good old fashioned whipping.

Wow what a mess of views! When I said they took God out of the schools, I meant that they took "the choice" of someone praying or saying the pledge of allegiance "Under God". In the last few years, a small group of non-believers have tried to take our rights away-the right the do these things. I just think we should all have the same rights. I am not trying to force anything on anyone and they shouldn't try to take my prayer or my pledge away from me, my children and grandchildren. It's supposed to be a free country. Why should a small group get to tell everyone else what to do? They don't have to pray or say the pledge if they don't want to. It's THEIR CHOICE. And no, I don't want the churches running the state. That would be a mess because there are so many of them with so many views. By the way, I would also like to know what "contradictions" there are in the Bible, Big Jim? I would like to see at least one example. Also, there would not be so many "religious faiths" if everyone followed the Bible and the Bible only. I can see why some people get fed up with "religion" because so many people abuse it or are hypocrites, as some of you said. But I can't live my life based on how "other people" live. I have to try to live my life the way God says to in the Bible. It is my instruction manual. You know what happens when you don't follow the instructions, guys. LOL

Just another glaring example of how ANYTHING taken to extremes turns into a giant $hitty mess.

Mrs Mcinnis

Pleased to meet you. Welcome to JPF.

I'm a bit of an old fart but I remember being taught the Pledge. I don't remember being given a choice in how I said it. I was told one way. First graders do not get choices.

I also don't remember different prayers being said by my coaches. They all said Christian prayers. Other religions were not mentioned. I wonder how it made the Jewish kids feel when the coach said; in Jesus's name we pray.

I don't think it would be quite fair to allow bible reading in school unless you are going to allow the Tora, The Koran, and any number of about a hundred other religions. When would they do their Math?
I could just see it now. About every hour or so some little group would get up from their chairs and put their little rug on the floor and start chanting.
Maybe the American Indian kids could sit in a circle and pass a pipe.



So you think your religion is the only one that should be used? What happened to it being THEIR CHOICE as you stated earlier in the paragraph.
I think this is exactly why religion should be kept out of our public schools

Jim, I've read the bible from cover to cover, there are things there that may appear to be contridictions but are not. Appearance is not always reality, understanding the meaning behind something can often explain the true meaning of something misunderstood. So quote some examples.

Jim, I've read the bible from cover to cover, there are things there that may appear to be contradictions but are not. Appearance is not always reality, understanding the meaning behind something can often explain the true meaning of something misunderstood. So quote some examples.

Bill,
I didn't say anything about Bible reading in schools. People are reading things into what I say that are not true. That's the problem with writing things down instead of talking face to face. All I'm trying to say is that we should have a CHOICE of saying a "silent" prayer. That doesn't offend anyone. Also, you are talking about the "old days" in school. Nowadays it's quite different. I know I'm from the "old days" myself.
As for the many "religions", Jesus didn't establish all those. He established one. Man established all the others. You can follow any one of those you want, but "as for me and my house we will serve the Lord." (Joshua 24:15)
Big Jim, you still haven't given any examples. I'll just keep reading my Bible. That's all I want to say. It's obvious that I touched a nerve with some people. Thanks for backing me up, Everett. At least I'm not the only one who believes in reading the Bible. I know most of you won't believe this, but I just wanted to express my thoughts, like everyone else has, but Truman chooses to call me a "Commie" for expressing mine. I am too civilized and educated to go around calling people names for having a different view. Personal attacks like that are totally uncalled for and you proved my point.
Johnnie a.k.a. ladynred

I guess we are not going to be able to keep this focused on the problems with the kids today. It cannot be done without bringing God and the Bible into it.

Johnnie
It seems what we are talking about is "the old days".
The days when there was discipline, and honor, and respect. I don't think removing "Under God" has a thing to do with it.

I did not mean to infer you said we should be reading the bible in school. However your run on Paragraph led to that assumption.

And you did NOT say have a choice of saying a "silent prayer"
I don't think they say a "silent" Pledge of Allegiance. it is said aloud.
And the coach did NOT say a silent prayer before the football game. It was said aloud.
And I guess now a days that is not allowed.

I would like to know how anyone is stopping people from saying "Silent Prayers". I think thought police are a thing of the future

I am not debating religion or the Bible or anything else a person does in their own faith. It is your choice to worship as you please.



And the arrogance that Jesus's established religion is the ONLY true religion is exactly the reason religion should be kept out of our public schools.
If I am not mistaken The Old Testament was dictated by God himself, was it not? Are you saying it is not valid because Jesus did not establish it?
I think the Jews will have something to say about that.

I do support your right to believe as you choose. Just as I support the right of everyone else to believe as they choose.
I don't think I have any right to dictate that to anyone. I do have the right to not be in the room when they are promoting "Their Religion or their God". Children in school do not have the choice of leaving the room when someone starts teaching something.

I'm sorry. I'm not trying to argue. I'm not going to change your mind and you are not going to change mine. It just upsets me that people call me names and then want to say something about freedom of speech and freedom to choose. I don't call people names. God/Jesus/HolySpirit = Godhead. Jesus did God's will when he established the church.
Let's just forget about it and move on. It is going nowhere. I thought songwriters were a friendly crowd. Wow was I mistaken.
Johnnie

Johnnie I do not want to argue religion with you. I won't argue religion with anyone. I won't disagree with your faith or how you worship. It is your choice. If someone was calling you names it was not me. I think I am a friendly guy. Ask my friends, I think their might be one or two around here.
And yes, no one is going to change anyones mind in this. And I am not trying.

Please don't let a discussion like this taint your view of songwriters or anyone else for that matter.
I am certainly not trying to change your mind on your view of religion. Or your faith or your God.

I had tried to get this back to the discussion about the kids of today. Just as John tried but people keep bringing the Bible into it.

Maybe that was Everett's intent from the beginning. I shoulda stayed out of it.

Johnie
I realized that I said Your arrogance and your Jesus. That was not my intent. I appologize. I have edited that.

Mrs. McInnis,

Welcome.

I think you'll find that songwriters are just as friendly or unfriendly as any crowd. Expecting that anyone is always good or bad is, indeed, a mistake. It is judging. We can judge the legality of actions, or the outcome of a sporting play, or the craft of a product, but to judge a group as friendly? or unfriendly? That's like saying all Christians are...well...I'm sure you get my meaning, it's a mistake.

However, you'll find many friendly folk here. And you'll find many who may seem unfriendly when discussing certain subjects (e.g. religion, politics, Taxi, Nashville) who are actually decent, moral folks, the kind who would help a stranger along the road.

So, Hi, Ladynred, know about Dillinger's "lady in red?" She's one of history's mysteries.

All the Best,
Mike

This was an eye-opening experience. I didn't realize so many songwriters don't believe in God/Jesus.
I guess I shouldn't have lumped everyone into the same category but there were some who were pretty rough in their language. You don't want to get a redhead all riled up. LOL


Johnnie

We are certainly a diverse group here.
That is why we have people like Mike to step in with some sense of reason when things get out of hand.

Red head Huh.
I wrote a song about a Red head. Check it out sometime. It is on My Soundclick link.
That Crazy Redhead Woman

We even had an arguement about whether it is Redhead or Red Head, LOL

Well, I think my husband probably thinks I'm a crazy redhead. LOL

I think this has been a very civilized discussion, considering the passionate subject.

Johnnie, the commie thing INHO was a joke
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Just think about what you said here. "A lot" of parents make the decision not to teach their kids about God. This, of course is their right under the First Amendment (or do you wish to revoke religious freedom?). So, you seem to feel that the government should step in and utilize the schools to force God upon those children (also in opposition to the First Amendment). What are you, a Commie?
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Look at the context, he was just talking about forcing something on someone. If you think about it, Communists were complete ATHEISTS. You weren't allowed to worship at all under communism. If anything, they forced people to NOT have any GOD in their lives. My wife's grandpa risked being put in prison by worshipping his GOD underground...and he was Jewish man who lived in a country that in general HATED Jews.
...............................................................
Lady in Red wrote
Let's just forget about it and move on. It is going nowhere. I thought songwriters were a friendly crowd. Wow was I mistaken.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I suggest to you maam that this is and has been a very friendly conversation. People that are not friends and not interested in being friendly do not talk about their differences in an effort to understand each other...they just stay away from each other.
This is all about communication, and again, considering the subject, I doubt you could have a friendlier discussion than this. At the end of this thread, all of us will still respect each other and feel a little closer for sharing this lively debate.

Getting back to what I originally tried to say, kids today aren't taught any kind of morals or behavior. That is their parent's fault. I have seen so many rude kids, it's unbelievable. I visited my husband's school one day and a kid ran into my shoulder and almost knocked me down. He never looked back-just kept walking. He never said I'm sorry or anything.

Quote:
"As for the many 'religions', Jesus didn't establish all those. He established one. Man established all the others."

I'm not challenging anyone's beliefs, but wasn't Jesus a man?


If I choose to [not to] believe in God [Buddha] [a ham sandwich], so be it. The Bill of Rights insures that I will not be persecuted for it. Why is the subject even up for debate?

Children learn 80 percent of how to act from their parents. Parents can and often do, say do this when they are doing the opposite. Children don't miss much. Of course there are many broken homes where the child may think they are to blame and take an indifferent attitude. Even the so called best of parents may not know how to be a good parent. Children don't come with instructions. Raising a child can be tough. A single parent may be juggleing a job and being a parent. Discipline may be lax. Kids can be rude but thwre may be a reason.

Some people may attend Church regularly but in name only. Children know. A bit of tough love never hurts.

Here, take this test and see to how many of the little buggers you can give an "attitude adjustment."

http://www.howmanyfiveyearoldscouldyoutakeinafight.com/

Immoral little brats indeed, we can show them!

I thought we had gotten off the subject, Richard, but Jesus wasn't just a man, he was the Son of God--that is, God in the flesh. That is a little bit different. And yes, you can believe, or not believe as you wish.

By the way, Herbie, if this was a civilized, friendly discussion, I would hate to see an uncivilized, unfriendly discussion. LOL

HA
Stomp the little miscreants

I scored 21 Ha

I scored 10. LOL

I said earlier "a kid almost knocked me down". It was a Jr. High School age kid. He should have known better at that age.

Yeah but I cheated

You cheated! I thought we were just talking about kids cheating. What an example. LOL

For what was said about kids knowing better.
I guess the age of reason uncovered by scientists 30 or so years ago was seven.
In reality there probably is'nt an age limit on that.
But I look around and have increasingly seen alults get kids wrapped up in adult games.
This is why in an earler post I made a parallel to the industrial age in the second half of the 1800's.
It's the bottom line and what feels good at the time.
Kids have to grow up way too fast.
And in the decadent, anthing goes way of the last 40 odd years, the kids do not have the adults around them, and the adults that are aound them don't have the same mentality of raising children.
If much of a thought at all about raising kids.
I know there are people like that out there that care deeply about what influences kids, which seems to permanate in this post.
But it is treated more as an option to look at how kids are raised rather than a neccesity.

Morality...the thread that keeps on giving {LOL}

Ladynred,
I hate to burst you bubble but Jesus wasn't perfect. He "Threw" a fit in the Temple, was taken before Ponches Pilot, (Excuse spelling) for some atrocity, let go, basically told Son, I'm letting you go this time but don't let it happen again, son didn't listen, was arrested, turned in by one of his own, and severly punished. I once asked a "Church Person" who decided Jesus was someone special. He stumbled and had no answer.
Earlier I asked if I claimed to be all the things Jesus claimed would you believe me? No, so why do you believe the things Jesus claimed? I carefully check things out for myself but if you buy all these things ok. The only problem is when someone asks a tough question that organised religion csn't answer people look at the message as faulty.
Jesus was no more than a human being no different than the rest of us. A perfect person wouldn't be nailed to the cross because he would know how to act exactly properly.
Another question. Who decided that we needed a Savior? That should take at least a year for you to research and come back with an answer.

Ray, Ray, calm down. Don't have a stroke. What happened to you to make you so cold-hearted and calloused? Obviously, you don't believe what the Bible says or you wouldn't have written what you did. If you don't believe it, that's fine, but I do. If you claim to be able to heal the sick and raise the dead and can prove it then I'll agree Jesus is no different than any man. All the things you mentioned that happened were in God's plan from the beginning. Jesus knew that Judas would betray him and said so. How's that for knowing the future? We need a saviour because we have all sinned and continue to sin. His blood was the sacrifice for us. You might not appreciate it, but I do. The only reason he was arrested was for telling the truth--that he was the Son of God. If you had read the Bible carefully, you would know all that.
Kind of reminds me of Ron Paul--no one wants to hear the truth, so they want to kill the messenger.


I thought we were changing the subject, anyway.

You most certainly do have that choice and so do kids in public schools. Honest.

Let me pose this question: if someone is praying silently, how would you know?



Ma'am, it would never have occurred to me in a thousand years that you would not have seen the sarcasm in my comment. It was a joke. I certainly did not mean to offend you, but to amuse you. I apologize. (same with the heresy remark)

We REAL Christians have a good sense of humor.

Everett,

I am curious. Do you believe that every word of the Bible is literally true and must be taken at face value?

"We REAL Christians have a good sense of humor."


Truman,
I'm a REAL Christian, but I also have a good sense of fairplay and decency. I don't joke about God.
I know you were addressing Everett, but:
The Bible is the inspired Word of God. There are some parables in it to teach the meanings of some principles. The Old Testament was written to teach us the history of Israel. To show us the mistakes that were made--it was for our learning, just like our History books in school, so that we don't repeat the same mistakes. The New Testament is the law we are to live by. Everyone has to read it for themselves--really study it.

Why the attack on me? What did I ever do to you? Is this "Attack the redheaded lady day" or something? Nobody informed me about it. It's not on my calendar. See, I do have a sense of humor.

My wife's grandfather was the first in her bloodline to emigrate from Sicily, at a time when life revolved around the church. From 1919 to 1924, he worked in America and saved money to bring his wife here. During that time he taught himself English by reading books. In the process, he became educated.

When he went back to collect his wife, he had a lot of questions to ask his priest. These questions incensed the priest, who excommunicated the man - a very big deal as you might imagine. The grandfather made his way to Rome where he sought and was granted audience with the Pope who, upon hearing his story, instructed to priest to reinstate the man.

As I have drawn my own conclusions from this account, I'm wondering what conclusions others might draw from it. Any takers? Johnnie?

Richard,
I would assume that the priest either didn't want people to study things on their own and know the truth or he wasn't educated himself enough to answer the man's questions. If he didn't know the answers he should have just said he didn't know, but that he would be glad to find out. I'm sure some churches are afraid if people studied and learned the truth, they would leave their church and there would go all the priests' money.