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Hey Scott,

I reckon the best musicians I've ever met are studio session guys. Any style, any colour, any flavour. As Doug said, you pay, they play. I suppose orchestra musicians are no good either ? Or the guys who do live television backing ?

I know who is the more professional, and who would knock your socks off in an instant. Have you done live broadcast backing Scott ? or perfect studio track laydowns in one or two takes ? Just curious.

cheers, niteshift

Big Jim,Doug,Bob & Nite Shift.
I agree with you guys.
If you want to work a lot or make a living playing music you had better be a musical prostitute.
Outside of orchestra & session musicians some of the best musicians that I've had the pleasure to hear and meet were the traveling musicians that were hitting the hotel circuits playing tons of covers and throwing in their own music.
Great thread with tons of opinions!

You're totally missing the point.

When I wrote about someone who "plays other people's music" I meant people who do covers and requests, like Big Jim.

Of course I'm not talking about session musicians or performers who don't write their own material.

Um, Scott,

Most session muso's do write their own material. They also play cover songs, do gigs in other peoples bands, play wherever they can, and take the gig where they can. Along with being top performers in their own right, they can also carry a show by themselves.

Case in point, Tommy Emmanuel, one of the best guitarists you'll ever see. How does an instrumental guitarist pack out the gig and also play other people's work as well as his own ? Because he is a professional muscian ,respected by both the industry and the public. Does he take requests ? Yep, any two songs, and he joins and interweaves them togther to make one number. He's got the ear of the best guitarists in the world, and it is not beneath him to play other peoples music.

He's just damn good at what he does. He's a real musician.

cheers, niteshift

Lucky? Maybe a little. I worked really hard to get to this point. I work hard on my own material, choose my gigs carefully and try to understand my audience.

I don't put myself into situations that require me to be a "musical prostitute" as others on this thread have called it. There's nothing wrong with playing covers and requests and showing people a good time, if that's what you prefer. That doesn't automatically make the musicians on the other side "amateur" or "arrogant."



Respect is a two-way street, Jim. You don't seem have much for the people slogging it out, trying write the music you might be covering one day.

Missing the point again.

No, not missing the point.

Quite simply put, you are confining yourself to an arrogant box.

Real musicians give others praise by playing their material. Is Joe Cocker not an entertainer, how about Tom Jones doing Prince covers ?

These guys are not musical prostitutes, they are or were at the top of their game. They are professional musicians. That's the difference.........

Quote " You don't seem have much for the people slogging it out, trying write the music you might be covering one day."

It is highly unlikely when you show no repect to those that came before you, that anyone will ever cover one of your songs. It ain't going to happen in the industry that I know.

cheers, niteshift

Richard M, Until about a year ago the open mic conducted by the Fort Worth Songwriting Association allowed each singer/songwriter 3 original songs each. To save time setting up, three songwriter's go up at a time and do a "round". Now the rules have changed which allow the performers the oportunity to do one cover if they want to. Only about 20% ever do but I think it is a good thing. It gives the audience something familiar to listen to. ASCAP hasn't barked but that may because they either don't know about it or that "The Rig" restruant (the host) already pays them for the jute box and the 3 nights a week of Karoke.

Oh come off it, niteshift. I've already stated that I've played both covers and requests. It's rare, but I honor those requests when I can.

What I don't appreciate is someone like Big Jim making blanket statements about how anyone who doesn't honor each and every request like a trained monkey is "arrogant" and "unprofessional" and "amateur." That's why I'm calling him on it.

You've completely misinterpreted what I wrote about "people who play other people's music." Of course Joe Cocker and Tom Jones are professionals at the top of their game.

The difference is, Joe Cocker doesn't go around slamming other musicians who prefer to perform original material as "amateurs." If he did, then yeah, he'd be a big ol' snob and not worthy of my respect.

And for the record, I think it's awesome that people like Bob and Big Jim are able to make a living playing music multiple nights a week, covers or not. That alone deserves respect.

What I don't respect is the crass superiority I get from people in cover bands who tsk-tsk musicians who actually want to *create* something instead of just playing it.

Oh, I get ya.

No, nothing wrong with creativity. I just reckon that being made to perform things actually broadens your skills both musically and as a performer. Then you can add those new skills to your lineup. No tsk-tsk, I like origional music, just that your general public might not appreciate it, and it therefor limits your options. It just needs a balance in order to feed the creative soul, and feed the family also.

cheers, niteshift

Here's another interesting thing about covers. I have seen local musicians play a cover and an original piece and the cover is the way better song. And by playing the two songs together, what it does is make the musician's own song look bad in comparison. I think that, in choosing cover songs for an original artist, this is a consideration - it may not be a good idea to show up your own songs. My ultimate goal when I perform a cover is for people to say, "You know, his original music is just as good." If that happens, I'm in great shape!

As a songwriter, I'm happy with my work, though I'm constantly trying to improve. As a performer, I've got a lot to learn and so I'm trying to play out more and more because the more I play out, the better.

You guys definately have gobbs of experience and knowledge.
I fell out of the band thing for either my crap, or my vision, depending on how one would see it.
There is no doubt of the value of the tested and approved method that professionals have been doing for eons to please audiences.
But winning the audience over with originals is a whole other thing all together.

I know people in bands that gig originals that want nothing to do outside of gigging for their marketing.
I knew another that considered me as a keyboardest and second vocalist in a loud rock band, gigging and putting out EP's, yet they decided against keyboards. And I felt rather half hearted because I like loud rock, but mostly slow to mid-tempo music and not genre specified. And I also have this phobia of playing to crowds.
But each little detail, even to a loud racous band, can mean everything.
That attention to detail has always appeared to matter to me more than the given music that is played.
And an act winning over an audience with their own kitty.
Being able to be an impressionest and cop a popular band in a live sequence is one thing. Although, no doubt, that takes talent.
But I wonder how many bands can make it doing it their own way and are not typecasted as being out of the frey or weird?
I don't think that could happen in a club setting, unless it was to the appeal of that particuliar audience.
Acts like that do it more just for the love of doing it.
Nashville I don't believe has any big alt scene, though I have heard of alt acts from Nashville that made a splash.
But the tried and true of what audiences like still win out.

A decade or two from now, Nirvana and The Smashing Pumpkins will no doubt start getting played on the oldies variety circuit.
If acts are not to a degree playing those infamous acts already.

Matt

Richard, I know what you mean. I never do a cover in the same set as a brand new original for the very danger you stated- I don't want anyone thinking, "This guy can sing but he can't write". I need to do covers that I love because they are part of my development as a songwriter. I don't necessarily have to do them in public but singing a great song is a reminder that great songs really have been written and that, who knows, maybe I'll write the next one.

I am just back from a tour so have not been on the boards for a few days. But I have to reply to Scott.
I have every respect for all fellow musicians regardless of what and where they play. However I cannot respect any musician who does not respect an audience. Scott says that an audience member who cannot accept the material he plays and that he does not do requests is at the wrong gig is showing absolutely no respect for an audience. This displays a lack of professionalism. Rule 1 You have to entertain and keep an audience happy. THAT MEANS PLAYING WHAT THEY WANT. As I stated anything else is just a snobbish ego trip for the performers own gratification and cuts no ice with either the audience or fellow professionals.

Scott
Re "Musical Prostitute" by definition all musicians who get paid are prostitutes. But it can be argued that people who perform their own music are even bigger prostitutes as they are just selling themselves. I therefore think the term is a nonsense. We are all just doing a job of work. Professionalism is not just about performing for money or about how good a songwriter or player you are or how many CDs you have sold or the size of crowds you pull. It is about attitude and respect. If you do not show respect for an audience then you cannot expect any in return. It is a privilage to stand in front of an audience. It does not matter whether it is a handfull of folk in a coffee shop or a sell out stadium performance. It is a privilage. It is best not to abuse that privilage. You say you worked long and hard to get where you are. Well you may have gotten there a bit quicker if you had given the audience the respect they deserved and did not have such a huge chip on your shoulder.

I agree. And as I stated above, I try to place myself in situations where what the audience wants is to hear my own songs. I think my audiences have completely different expectations than yours. When I play shows, people more or less expect to hear original music.

I've been in cover bands and still play covers from time to time. But I prefer the challenge of winning an audience over with entertaining originals.



Ehh, you've never seen me interact with an audience so I'm not really offended by your opinion.

I agree that many artists who play originals can be disrespectful. They get offended when people talk during the set, they get upset when no one pays attention, they stare at the floor while they play, they turn eight shades of red when someone shouts "Freebird!" etc. No one should expect an audience to reverently sit there silent and dwelling on every word. You have to earn that privilege.

And it's a hard privilege to earn, but it feels good when you earn it. There have been times when I've played where about ten seconds into a song I've seen someone abruptly stop their conversation with another person, turn and look at me with this look, and soft of shift in their seat a little. And I understand the look - it means, "Geez, this guy's actually pretty good. I'm going to actually listen." Or somewhere along those lines. Another sign is someone sort of shifting and sitting up straighter in their seat. I think it's a subconscious thing we all learn from school. It means they're paying closer attention.

I'm still working on the best way to do eye contact with audience members without creeping them out. It's sort of weird to have people stare at you intently while you're singing. You WANT them to, and it means you're succeeding, but I'm still working on how to respond. THAT would be a great thread - tricks for interacting with the audience onstage, from eye contact to jokes and stories to other stuff like plugging the venue's food and drinks...

This topic goes right to the heart of being a well-rounded songwriter - IF, and that is a big IF - you want your songs to reach out and mean something to someone else. Then you step into that larger aspect of the song doing the job of 'entertaining' for some audience, large or small. Covers are songs that have stood the test of time in delivering the 'entertainment' goods.

I think everyone here shares an understanding of this notion of 'entertainment', but differ in the "implementation details".

Mine are that I have found it's good to have covers ready-to-go. As has already been said, some are just instant success with the audience, and I'd agree. Have a setlist but be ready to change it on a moment's notice. If you can handle requests, do so. If not, substitute something else in of a similar flavor.

With covers, everyone has a creative opportunity here, too: find some covers to flex into your 'style'; that way the audience can have their cake and eat yours too [G]. I did a rock/jazz makeover of "Norwegian Wood" for our band Covert Agenda, and many people that have heard us live remember it and want to hear it again. So I can bear positive witness to the power of harnessing someone else's proven song, and catching ears because of a fresh take on it [G]

Some cover songs are resistant to changing (e.g. Springsteen's "Fire" has to have that signature riff, or it just doesn't work), but others are remarkably flexible. So any basic blues tune is fair game to do a severe makeover, for example. Consider it like a variant of a rewrite - can you make it better than the original? In other words, don't say "no, I don't like to play it", say "what could I do to it so that I WOULD like to play it, and people would still recognize it". You might surprise yourself.

If you don't think your stuff is strong enough to bookend with a Beatles tune, or whatever, then maybe that's a sign that a rewrite is in order.

On a related note, for those that have done or are doing their own CDs:

I recently heard that with internet sales becoming a dominant force, even well-established artists are including one strong cover song. That way they get "found" by search engines looking for songs of that name. So you can bet whenever we get ready to put a CD up on CDBaby, I'll be visiting Sony/ATV to properly license our version of Norwegian Wood - already a proven winner by audience testing - so we can benefit by it .

My $0.02,

John

Scott
Finally we agree on something. Audiences need to be respected. It is great that you can play your own stuff and hold their attention. They have come to see you play and that is great. I really mean that. I hear you used to play covers and requests So what is the big deal if someone now wants a cover played? Are you now all of a sudden too big to do that small favour? Geez that is snobbish.
Richard
re tips about eye contact with audiences and how best to crack jokes etc. The best advice I can give is just be yourself as open and natural as you can be. Anything else will look contrived and fake. An audience will spot that. Unless you want to take somebody home I suggest you do not stare at them. It is better to look at a fixed spot or two several feet above their heads. and remember SMILE. unless it is a sad song.

This may be a little off topic but I think it's relevent to the discussion. This is an experience that I had a few years ago. I was sitting at local restuarant/bar on a Sunday afternoon. It was during tourist season and their were a few tables full of tourists having lunch and drinks. I knew the owner and I knew that he kept a "house" guitar in his office for anyone who felt like playing. I thought what the hell, I'll pick a few tunes for these people. I played all requests and we did a couple of sing alongs. It was a blast. I wasn't getting paid but was having a good time. Someone requested Lightfoot's "Early Morning Rain" and I told them that I didn't know the words and started playing something else. A few minutes later the owner slapped a piece of paper on the table in front of me. It was the Lyrics to "Early Morning Rain". He found it on the computer and printed it out for me. By the way, I didn't stand in front of the audience, I sat at a table with them and played. I know that those tourists will never forget the good time we had. As they were leaving, someone slipped me a twenty dollar bill. Ben

http://benwillismusic.com

Ben your post was not off topic but right on the button. If you have an audience and please them then you all enjoy the experience. If only the performer enjoys the performance then that is a different matter. Money does not even enter into the equation. I have no problem with people playing their own material but when they refuse to play anything else except perhaps a few hand picked favourite cover songs that in my opinion is snobbery, mean and disrespectful to any audience. Would these people refuse to sing happy birthday to their kids because they did not write it and it was not in their prescribed list of acceptable cover songs?

That's easy, Richard. We play what we like. And of course, as time goes by, we play things that our audiences suggest (errrmmm... as long as we like it well enough). <giggle>

I play covers because I like them. I also play covers because the audience knows them and will sing/clap along. How many covers depends on the gig. If it's 2 or 3 sets, I mix it up, playing familiar stuff and then originals. Many audiences like both. Most of my originals are ballads so I play uptempo covers to keep things lively.

Every band that I've played with mostly performed cover songs.

Once in a while we sneaked in one of our originals, which was avalable on a vinyl that we were selling.

If you're also using CD Baby for digital distribution, it would be an accounting nightmare to keep track of all the downloaded covers on your CD so the Harry Fox Agency will be happy.

Make your original songs so great, that people will want to use them for covers!

Don't just be competitive - rise up above that level.