JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum When should you throw in the towel with a co write?

This is a touchy subject and I am going to tread carefully. Until recently I had written songs basically by myself. In the past I had done about 2 co writes where the lyricist handed me lyrics that did not need any repair or shall I say I like how they were just as they were and it was easy to put the music to. I even wrote lyrics for one song and my friend in Nashville did the music where no changes were needed. It made co writing seem pleasant and easy.

Now I have begun writing with several new writers and have encountered a situation I have never delt with before. I need some advice. The lyricist handed me their lyrics and I honestly felt one of the verses did not make sense. I suggested some rewriting and we sat down together for hours on this song. This person seemed ok with the fact that I was going to make suggestions to help the music I was creating be a good marriage to their words. I did not realize until a good 24 hours of work on the song that they only wanted me to put music to the words they had and they did not want my suggestions. This person has sent their song to a very well known songwriter/mentor in Nashville and paid 30.00 a pop for 5 rewrites of the song. They only want the man in Nashville to give her all the right things to say. I became frustrated because although I think this persons writing is excellent I don't agree with everything the Nashville man is saying about this particular song. When I went to put music to it, the lines are WAY too wordy. Ugh! Since I was going to be paying for half of the demo to be done of our so called song, I wanted to have a say so in the lyrics. My name would be put on the song, and I am just not willing to do that as it is written now. Any suggestions?? What would you do? I actually made this person cry because they were so attached to their lyrics that any suggestions of change she took as a personal offense. Honestly if this is what co writing is about count me out.

What are my boundries and rights as a co writer. Do I have to stick to just putting music only to a song and let the lyricists have full claim to the words. Maybe any of your advice can help me avoid some really uncomfortable sessions down the road.
Thanks!!

Tammy

www.tammyedwards.com
www.myspace.com/tammyedwards1

Hey Tamara,

Both parties need to be aware that nothing is set in stone until the final recording is made. To be able to adjust lyrics and music as the song progresses, is the key to getting a final product which sits right. Anyone who is not willing to compromise for a suitably good outcome is not worth working with.

Some things work, some don't , and a number of avenues need to be explored to achieve the best outcome. Some folks are easy going and easy to work with, others aren't. I'd take the essy route, it's much more prodctive and much more fun.

cheers, niteshift

Hi again, this person will only listen to the person in Nashville who she is paying to give them "advice" on their songs. The thing that bothers me is that the person I guess doesn't seem to respect my advice yet they want me to co write with them. I felt like saying just write with the Nashville guy but I can assure you, he won't write with just anyone but I am sure he will keep taking her checks to give her advice. I kept asking, do you like the music?? I was more than willing to make continual changes on that but they informed me this evening to my suprise that lyric changes were not an option. They want to write the lyrics soley alone based on what the Nashville guy is saying. Hmmmmm what shall I do?? He is not wanting to be a co writer on this. So that leaves me not so happy. This person does not sing or play an instrument so that leaves me doing all the music and asking if they like it. It is like we just can not connect.

Feeling frustrated...

Tammy

Hi, Tammy.

This IS a touchy subjrct -- You are right about that.

I have written lots of music and lyrics on my own, and have also collaborated with a mumber of writers, so I will offer some thoughts of mine on this subject. I have had some outstanding experiences with co-writers, and only one bad one, which was many. many years ago.

Some people are not truly interested in writing TOGETHER. They don't know how to edit or to work with another person. Some composers are not really willing to change their music and some lyricists aren't interested in changing any lyrics. Some composers expect a lyricist to simply "fit" the lyrics to their music without any real collaboration. While this MAY work for some, most co-writers spend time polishing a song - changing words and music when necessary. This is seasier said than done, as lyricists and composers usually have such definite ideas about their visison for the song theya re wirting!!

I think I can understand why some lyricists go to these demo houses and pay for their songs to be put to music- so they don't ahve to deal with the complexity of co-writers.

You certainly have a legal right to a 50-50 split for songs you've worked on with a co-writer, but other factors, such as the ones you've shared can happen, especially when some of the perimeters are not well defined from the beginning. A few co-writers I know actually spend time discussing the "terms" of their collaboration before ever writing together!

If a lyricist contacts you with a song, and you create the music, in an ideal situation, both of you work together to poilsh the song and make both music and lyrics tight. If both writers have very different ideas about the end product, it can't always be resolved.

I've had a few situations where I had to let go of the song because I couldn't come to an agreement about the song. I am asuuming that those writers would contact me if the song that I worked on and contributed to was signed.

Co-writing is a complex process. I wish I had more wisdom to give you more advice. Trust your intuition and I am sure thigs will work out. It will interesting to dear the other responses here!

Good luck!

Emily

You know I think the mistake was made when the person did not tell me upfront that changing lyrics was NOT an option. They gave the song to me in the middle of rewrites and wanted my suggestions at first and then backed out of that. I probably wouldn't make such a stink about it except for the fact that I honestly don't get the first verse lyrically at all. It is disjointed if you know what I mean. I don't want to put my name on something I am not proud of. I am trying to be sensative. The lyric lines are very forced and do not fit in with the music yet I have written in the style they asked for. So I suggested phrasing the verses a little differently, apparently that is NOT an option. At first it was, now it is not. Whew! No wonder I have sat at the piano all alone these years.

My daydreams of cokes, pizza'a and a few of us at the piano writing a hit song in peace are apparently a mirage.

Tammy

Hi, again, Tammy,

This would be a great question for you to post on the JPF Mentor Board. I am sure that many writers have experienced something similar.

Emily

Thanks I just may do that. I need all the advice that I can get. I hope this whole thing doesn't blow up between us. I really want this person as a friend.

Tammy

www.tammyedwards.com

"My daydreams of cokes, pizza'a and a few of us at the piano writing a hit song in peace are apparently a mirage....."

No they're not, you just need more easy going folks to write with. Pity my rowboats' sprung a leak, would row over and do the pizza thing, no anchovies, and I think beer goes down better than coke.....

cheers, niteshift

hehe,... if I could I would fly to Australia and we would give it a go!! Pizza, beers, cokes and all....

Thanks!
Tammy

www.tammyedwards.com

Hey Tammy,
Yup, this is a tricky one! I can only share a little of how I might handle my options if I was "stuck" in the same situation... so here's my personal opinions for what they're worth.

First, if I couldn't live with (accept) the outcome, I might gracefully bow out of the whole deal, at least for that one-song Split Agreement. That way I'd be done with it and the lyrics writer could shop around and seek another co-writer or pay a professional songwriter on a work-for-hire basis. By letting it go, I would get instantly unattached (emotionally) from the whole project and hopefully still keep a friend... and besides, maybe another lyric might work out better in the future, never know!

If I didn't like something about the lyrics, perhaps I wouldn't even like to get paid "up front" on a work-for-hire basis, but maybe I would. I've actually been paid before to create new or improved backing tracks for other songwriters & demo singers, but in most cases I thought the lyrics were pretty good to begin with and I didn't have to spend any time changing or editing them. Even the basic chord progression & melody was already figured out, so I got paid to produce and that was the end of that.

My other option would be to "grin & bear" it by simply going ahead and (at least) getting credit for the music. The only problem is that perhaps the song will never sell anyway, in which case I only lose a bit of time and hopefully wouldn't go down that path again.

Did you sign anything that would prevent you from bowing out & walking away from this project? Would it "break" your heart if your co-writer could take her lyrics to someone else to get her tune written according to her exact lyrical preference?

Just some food for thought!
Michael

Hi Tammy,

I'm hoping that JPF member Dave Costello is here because he an I have had the same sort of experience that you are having now, and its a really interesting topic.

Like you, I have collaborated with a number of different writers in the past year or so, and for me, each collaboration has been different.

One thing I have learned is that even though I'm in Australia, I always like to phone my would-be co-writer, no matter where in the world they are, for a chat and to get to know them and hash out a verbal agreement of how the collaboration is going to work. I have found that this is a great way to put all the cards on the table and make sure that we both know where we stand before we even start.

Dave and I did this and we really enjoyed collaborating on our first song. It went really well. In our second attempt, we didn't fare so well. Dave sent me some very nice chord progressions with the startings of a melody and I added a lyric and completed the melody). Dave was not happy with some of my lyric content and felt it should be changed. He sent me some alternative lyrics that I wasn't keen on. Anyway, to cut a long story short, after lengthy discussions about the issues we were each having, we agreed to disagree, so I took my lyric and worked with someone else to finish my song, and Dave took his chord progressions and did the same. We will definitely write together again. I like Dave, and he has a great work ethic (actually this was during some rather spectacular personal crises I was going through at the time and I admit that I was always late getting work to him - he definitely had a lot to put up with and never once complained!)

Because Dave and I talked through the terms of our collaboration before we started, we were able to work well together and when we did hit an unresolvable problem, we were able to call it quits amicably.

Tammy, if you haven't got a written agreement with your co-writer, and you have tried unsucessfully to work out the issues, and you really feel that the resulting work is going to damage your career or reputation as a songwriter, my suggestion is that you leave the collaboration and take your music with you. It is definitely a last resort action, so maybe threaten to do it first and see what the response is like. It may be enough to make your co-writer think a little harder about excluding you from the process or negating your suggestions.

Next time you collaborate, make sure that both writers understand the 'rules' of the collaboration going in.

I hope this helps, and I hope you are able to resolve the situation, one way or another.

Hi Tammy,

I feel for your situation, this is one of the reasons I don't do a lot of co-writes...
Sometimes we all feel so strong about our respective roles that we are closed to the idea of someone coming in and changing them.

Do you feel this song can be a hit?
How strong do you really feel it could be?
What is so great about this song that will keep you in it?

Does this song have a chance of being picked up if you keep the lyrics the way they want them?
If you feel that it won't then I would bow out respectively...

Maybe you should do something really funky with the music, that you know they would want to change and then tell them "That is not an option" Maybe this will open your co-writer's eyes a little?

Maybe you could do two versions of the song, and see which one gets a more positive response?
Maybe post it on a board and which ever one wins, then that's the one you guys settle on?

Just thinking aloud here:)))
Keep us posted on this, I would love to know how its resolved:)))
Best of luck with it!-Dana

Hi Tammy

Hope you are feeling better these days

I have so much personal expierence co-writing I started doing it 25 years ago and still do it today. You have to way the balances and decide what you want.
I don't want to sound selfish but when it comes to your music you have to pull things your way but keeping all fairness in mind.

Dayson made some great suggestions.

There are no real rules to co-writing and collabs so I made up my own, I explain them to the people I work with. If they don't agree then Goodbye!

In your case -
Who came with the song? Who made the first offer? Where there lyrics first?

Anyone who won't let you make changes is a no no for collabs. I'm mean what's the point?

When I offer a line or a word or a phrasing/melody idea to someones song lyrics
In my rule book It Is A Gift we do it here all the time.

My measuring stick works this way - I subtract instead of add.
I don't care what you added to the song.. I take away what you added and see what i have left then I can see if the song could have or can exist without you.
That's how I prove too someone how much impact I or they have made.

This is very important - People get lost in the process they can work on a song with you for 2 days and feel like they have contributed so much. But when you subtract you sometimes see they have not added that much. But they feel they earned full credit. This is when it becomes dangerous.

I'm pretty cool with that.. If you are a good person and have done work with me in the past and have contributed significantly to other songs but you struggled with this one... I will still give you credit. If i had to pull the weight on this one but you were there putting in the time, I'll share the rights to the song.

Keep your friendship with this person by not collaborating with them

You are correct Tammy.
The big mistake is not getting the rules of play straight before you start.
Make sure all parties are happy with what all other parties are prepared to go along with.
It is not uncommon, when writing music to lyrics something has to be changed.
The composer needs to know how far the other party can run with this factor.
Are they open to the composer suggesting the changes.
Or would they prefew them to sing what they can of the existing lyric, and then la la their melody through the unsingable stuff and send that to the lyricist to work on?
Most of the lyrics I have composed to have eneded up being changed quite a bit.
Some by me and some by the lyricist concerned.
Day one. As soon as you read the lyric and decide you are willing, set your terms of engagement down in an email, and only continue if all parties concerned send you an agreement eimail.
keep all emails concerned.
Graham

Couldn't sleep so I thought I would come on and see if any of you had some advice. Thanks to all of you!! Great advice.

To answer a couple of questions, the co writer came to me with the lyrics. They do not write music at all or can not sing on tune at all. I do think this co writers lyrics are pretty strong.I am confident that someone out there may be interested in recording the song. But the verses are lacking continuity. The thought process is disjointed. In the first verse in particular. There are shorter ways of saying something. For instance, have you ever noticed that poetry tends to have long lines and even though it rhymes beautiful it isn't necessarily great for a song?

I have to chuckle because I have attended alot of Christian seminars for songwriting and a common thing I heard in the songwriting workshops was "Well God gave me the song this way so I am not gonna change it!". I still shake my head at that. So apparently God isn't into rewrites eh? LOL

The other thing that bugs me is that this co writer takes this one particular guy in Nashville's word as gold. This person waits for his critique to come and that will be the only changes they are really open to making. Problem is, Mr Nashville is not sitting here at the piano with me to hear how these lyrics are sounding with the music. It is VERY frustrating to me. That makes me want to just give up. It is like two different people working on the song with her without even talking to each other. UGH!

Lesson learned about not talking upfront about the conditions. If I can post a couple versions of the lyrics at some point I will. I will see how it goes in the next few days.

Thanks!

Tammy

P.S. Mike, thank you for asking how I am feeling. Not so hot actually right now. That is why I am up in the middle of the night. Thank goodness for internet to help pass the time. I hope you are well! God Bless!

www.tammyedwards.com
www.myspace.com/tammyedwards1

Why don't you throw up the lyric here till we get a "swatch" at it..and point out your problem areas..and your suggestions to change it...give us a before and after scenario...that will let us see where you are coming from and also the lyricist...but a moot point, in this business 2 is sometimes company, but 3 is definately a crowd...and another point, if you started out as a solo writerIE.writing and composing yourself...jumping into the co-writing field can be very uncomfortable...you and your buddy must be on the same wave length..that is a must....because if looking at the lyric..and you do not get a "glow" off it..and your buddy reckons its the dog,s b****kks,then you have a problem
clash of personalities is surely around the corner..in co-writing the two talents must blend as one ..no third parties..or forget it and move on,and save yourself a lot of headaches...
Terry Moore

Unles the collab is happy with the lyric being posted, I don't think that would be the right thing to do.
I also doubt it would serv any purpose.
Graham

Agree Grahem, You don't air dirty laundry in public.

All I can say is, that a song, from it's origional conception, will change greatly to the finished version. Even the finished version will change, depending upon the producer ( and the talent )in the studio at that particular moment.

Without flexability, something will break. Maybe time to walk ?

cheers, niteshift

Hi again! I would love to post and get your thoughts but won't out of respect for the writer. They are very protective of their work and like I said, not very open to thoughts from others. That kind of answers my question about co writing with them. I do have to agree with niteshift about a song evolving. I really think it has to evolve as it is being written.

Tammy

www.tammyedwards.com
www.myspace.com/tammyedwards1

In short?

Your art is your own, and only you can create from that which exists within you.

Maybe just doing your own thing is where you need to be?

Taking some time to give this issue some long hard thought is one thing, but allowing someone else to cloud up your vision and confuse you to death is something you don't need.

I personally have never had any bad experiences co-writing, but that doesn't change anything, I still feel that one's creativity is akin to one's individuality.......

First, it's all you. Maybe, and only maybe, THEN it can become a joint project.

Hey Tammy it is a learning curve and you obviously have learned some lessons. Everybody should be up for compromise otherwise a partnership does not work. These boundaries must be made clear from the start. If the co writer will not accept any criticism or changes then it is not worth the effort. You must accept that that also applies in reverse. You must also be willing to compromise. As for the Nashville guy he obviously has his own agenda and perhaps might not be totally honest with his suggestions or wants for whatever reasons. If you cannot come to a mutually agreeable settlement and lay down ground rules which she respects and will adhere to then I would advise abandoning this project. The person will soon get the message that professionalism is paramount THAT MEANS GIVE AND TAKE. Tears and tantrums do not work. I would give an ultimatum along the lines of if you cannot work with me then I am pulling out. All the work will go down the drain as I will not allow any of my imput to be used and will withdraw any funding or future imput. Hope you can sort it out.

Hi Tammy,

cowriting isn't always fun or easy,
sometimes it's work,
sometimes it's a struggle,
sometimes feelings get hurt

I think it's good to start off easy and get the first one out of the way

personally I attempt to be laid back and focused on improving the song

I'm for whatever is better

If I disagree with a cowriter on a particular item
I'll:

1) voice my opinion
offer alternatives to consider, and
state my reasons,

2) request peer critiques from folks I respect
like many of the people here, my cowriters, and friends at AdvancedLyricWriters

3) get pro critiques like jason blume or from my pro friends and

4) sometimes I'll set the song aside for a few days, weeks, or even months, to resume with a fresh perspective and hopefully as a better writer.

I don't want to write just another song.
I want to write really good songs.
I want them to reflect excellence.
I want to be proud to put my name on them.

It's not about egos or who's right, it's about writing strong songs and creating relationships where the door is open to write more in the future.

If I'm writing with an artist, I'll voice my opinion, then let them chose which direction to take. (even if I disagree)
My hope is we write something good enough for them to perform their gigs.

It's important to create an environment when both parties are allowed to say and do stupid things to get the song to where it needs to be.

Both writers need to have an inner compass of excellence

Sometimes differences might mean writing two different songs, or several songs.

I suggest you archive all correspondence with your cowriter.

Sometimes if you're still not happy, you can ask for the song back. What's usually the case is a long period of inactivity by both parties.

I've occasionally asked for lyrics back. Usually because I never got anything back.

There's 2 times that I know of when I've forgotten that I placed a lyric with particular writers then wound up placing them with other writers.
So I had 2 versions of the same songs.

If you want to pull an idea, just email or call the writer and tell them you want it back:
ie:
"Tammy you remember that song idea I sent you on Oct 17th, 2004? ( "Don't Look at Me Like That" )
I haven't heard from you in quite a while. I'm curious if you're still interested in working on it or have you decided to pass?
(or) I've decided to take a new direction with the song and I'd like it back.

Is that OK with you?

~ ~ ~

As a lyricist I attempt to place lyrics and ideas with melody writers. It's trial and error.

back to your question:
"What are my boundaries and rights as a co writer?
Do I have to stick to just putting music only to a song and let the lyricists have full claim to the words?"

your boundaries are to makes songs as great as it can be
you should have input on anything that makes the song better.
Rewrite till it's right.

What's also funny, is the songwriting community is small, all kinds of cowriting situations can unfold. It's good to keep communication lines open and tell writers when you've decided to remove them from a song.


in 2003 a writer (writer A) invited me to work on a song he started, I sent him several rewrites.

Last year I started cowriting a different song with a different writer (Writer B) When I went to his site to hear what he did with our song, I discovered that WRITER A send the same lyric to WRITER C and WRITER C invited WRITER B in on the same song.
Writer A never told me I was off the song.
I haven't told WRITER B or WRITER C about the situation.
I sent an email to writer A, asking him where we were with the song but I didn't say you pitched the same idea to someone else.

hope this helps,

Ande

Hi ... the first thing is it is important to how the collaboration works by who asked for what? If you have offered to set a known lyric to music, then the amount of "re-arranging" is limited... there should be no problem to say to them... this part don't sing well or sounds weak... can you re write... and give them the melody to guide their hand... but to read a lyric and say I'll set this to music... have them agree and get all excited when your intention had been all along to "REWRITE" then set to music... Is a TOTAlLY different thing... to my mind not telling them you want re write it before they agree.. You are lying to them from the begining.

As a lyric only writer.. I have often had to tread carefully what I say in a collaboration. At times when something isn't working and I say as much (which isn't often) ... the composer has got all hurt and that's the end of the collaboration.. it pisses me off that you can't just say I don't like that to some composers yet they feel they can totally rearrange and or change what you've written... do they think they are the only ones with feelings.... Some words don't sing well as it is with some phrases and when the composer /(or if it's a seperate singer) the vocalist says that... the lyric writer need to listen and work accordingly... however when writing ballads or about something sometimes when the lyric writer says it don't work or it loses the feel of what they are trying to say.. the composer needs to listen.... you go into a collaboration with an open mind and you tell each the truth... and if you can't take it you shouldn't be collaborating....

At the moment I am working with someone who is great, instead of losing the plot gave it a second shot... For excellent results I hope I can be the same and live up to my expectations

Cheers.

Thanks again everyone for the great advice. I am learning ALOT about how to handle co writing. The writer emailed me twice today. They said they were sorry that things weren't clearer from the start. Me helping with the lyrics is still not an option because this person has worked on them for a year now and they told me specifically they want full credit for all lyrics. This was kind of news to me. Actually I don't care about the credit for lyrics because the song is written together as a whole.I just wanted it to be the best that it could be. They did send a newly written 1st verse that I think will work. I think it is definately alot better than what was there before. Maybe if we can just make it through this one song I can feel like it wasn't in vain.

Tammy

www.tammyedwards.com
www.myspace.com/tammyedwards1

My advbice there is here is. As you are doing the music only and they the lyric, keep them seperate. Not as al all song for all.
It is in fact how the PRO registration, and copyright forms are written out.
A equals author, as in lyric, and C equals Composer as in the music.
That way, if it falls in a hole, each still has sole right to their own part to continue on with solo, or in another collab.
Even when I contribute some of the words, I sometimes give that away as they are only suggestions the same as I would do on a lyric forum, and no bigt deal.
Graham

Hey Tammy,

Glad you are getting somewhere. Graham is right, keep the lyric and composer credits seperate. Just because you suggest a few line chenges, doesn't make you the lyricist, and suggested melody line changes doessn't make the lyricist a composer. Hey you may be getting somewhere here. Hope you break through the deadlock.

PS - Working on lyrics for a year ? Too pedantic, they are no more or no less important to a project than say a bass line, or a vocal phrasing, or a symbol crash or........get the point ?
What's important is the final vision, if you can both focus on that, and both ADD to the process, build it up and make it better, it will work out OK.

cheers, niteshift

Hi tammy,

G*d is =so= into rewrites; he gave the Ten Commandments twice (well yeah, all right, his editor broke the original manuscript). lol.

Feel better soon.

Steven

Tammy,
I've been reading some great suggestions here so hopefully you'll find a few that will help you. Moving forward, there are more than enough books written on the subject which can give you ample ammunition when having to address the issue, or even better, establishing guidelines from the getgo. Based on your experience, I think I'll extract some choice words from a book or two, and include them in an emailed "statement of understanding" to my cowriting partners.

Jake

Tamera,

You make a great point, and i have found myself in a similar situation. I put music to other peoples lyrics, to test my abilities to make their song... well a song. and not just words on paper. Before i do, i tell them that i reserve the right to cut out re align, or rewrite any and possibly all of it for the sake of the music. (if it don't sing, it don't sing) if i do a bad job, no loss no harm no foul they can try to find somebody else to do what i do for free. (all i ask is the credit, and a percentage if it gets picked up) none have so far. i run in to people (not on this site yet) that don't want me to "adjust" their work... that is fine with me. they aren't paying me, and i can't work with someone who won't work with me. you know what i mean? If you are doing work for hire, and are bound to these cowriters for some reason, i don't know what to tell you. if you are not bound to them, and there isn't a paycheck involved, then why are you tortureing yourself. stop the co writes with them immediately... just my opinion, have a great day

-steve

Thanks again everyone. You are right Sofa King Bixby, I am not being paid. It is a freeby and this suppose to be a co write. Things are real bad this morning. Another bad email from the co writer saying their are offended at my confrontation they perceive me thinking that their lyrics are not perfect. They slammed me back by saying they were not going to change the lyric lines given to her by the so called "Nashville hit writer". Those lines must stay!! He/she said. They said because I am more of a pop writer and this person loves country that the lines can stay all long and wordy. I do understand this concept. But this song is a country ballad to be demoed by a male country singer and the lyric lines are TOO long and wordy. I am banging my head against the wall here people. UGH!! I feel this co writer does NOT respect me at all and I am beginning to feel used. I don't know if we can salvage this. I have run this by my mother who is an accomplished pianist and songwriter herself. She says I should not have gotten involved in this mess and that I have given away many hours of my valuable time with no appreciation. She also believe as a musician it is a pain in the neck to have a lyricist sit right beside you breathing down your neck as you are creating the music unless they have some of the same musical skills to be a part of it. I am sorry but if a lyricist is tone deaf, it is contributing to more heartache and frustration in the creative process.....

feeling weary....

Tam

www.tammyedwards.com
www.myspace.com/tammyedwards1

Hi Tammy Wow it took a year to write lyrics? Either this person is a very slow writer or they must be the best lyrics in the world. How long would it take for an album? No wonder the person does not want a word or two changed. By my reckoning that would take a month or so to achieve even a small change. Please excuse the sarcasm. Maybe, and this is only a suggestion, if the lyrics were posted for critique the person and their ego would come back down to earth with a huge bump. In the real world it should not take a year to write lyrics.
Just to echo the general feelings, if there is no light at the end of the tunnel bail out before you both torture yourselves to death.

i am here for you Tamera, if you want to cowrite sometime just to see how smooth it can be, let me know. i love to "touch " people musically. (but i am a bit sloppy)

-steve

p.s. IN my opinion, you should stop wasting sleep and time on this.

-steve

Thanks Steve! I will be in touch! I will let you all know how this pans out.


Tammy

www.tammyedwards.com

Hi Tammy:

Sorry to be entering this thread so late. I've been a little pre-occupied. You really have brought up a "tough subject."

Co-writing is usually difficult unless the "partners" have a clear understanding of exactly what is expected, a great work ethic on both sides of the fence, and non-sensitive skins.

In my early "lyrics only" days, I had no understanding of how very difficult it can be for the melody creator to "shoehorn" lyrics to fit the tune. We would argue for days and I would allow my wounded pride to pout for extensive periods of time. When I finally began to create melodies for my lyrics, it did not take long for me to understand what my friend and mentor was trying to tell me.

Since that time, I've attempted to link up with a couple of co-writing candidates and I would guess that they heard my pitiful first attempts and decided to "head for the exits." (ASAP!)

As I made progress and became more comfortable with my voice, my confidence levels increased and I would probably not engage in co-writing unless I had sold my soul to a publisher or label as a staff writer. I've been told that most of the new Nashville music is created that way these days. I tend to think of it as having too many cooks in the kitchen or too many barbers on a haircut. Of course, I know there are some great songwriting teams out there. Many are talented beyond belief and are capable of doing the entire schmeer on their own. When the chemistry is right, the combined creativity sometimes adds the spark of greatness.

In your situation, I agree with Bixby. Cut the cord if you cannot reach agreement soon. Life is too short and the competition keeps gaining ground!

All my best,

Dave Rice

What great lessons you are given, offering to your co-writer, and sharing with us all. Lesson 1: Get the understandings up front of how this must work to both parties' satisfaction or both reserve the right to back out of participation so no one is surprised or hurt when flaws are pointed out or impasses are reached.

As soon as a song begins the 'hook factor' comes into play. It may be percussion or some instrumental bit we perk up and say 'Whazzat?' (Yeah, we talk funny). But we're 'hooked.' If the intro is special, we may listen long, but if it's just routine, and repeats and goes on too long, we may drift back to our own thoughts (piano by the window, cokes).

But then the first line of lyric has to pick up with that broader 'hook factor,' the 'hook' of words we CAN hear, with meanings we DO get. Words that make us begin to wonder what the singer/character's story is going to be, what they mean by...what they've said. If that first line doesn't 'hook' us, we drift and wash up on NiteShift's beach. Cool. For us. Not for the song. It lost us, nay, set us adrift, repelled and repulsed us, rejected and neglected us! (Yeah, I told 'ja we talk funny.)

But the song gets a second chance with the 2nd line. Sometimes we get it, the 2nd line, and realize what the first line was and now it all make sense and we're either hooked enough to keep listening; or not. And the 3rd line comes and we're either there or adrift.

Now another element of 'hook factor' comes into play; melody. The first line may not have had great meaning, or we may not have even understood it (They talk funny too) but the melody 'hooked' us so we stuck around and got the 2nd line lyric, and liked the melody too, and maybe that guitar riff between the vocal lines, had 'hook factor' and so we're still on board. Or all these things didn't come together and, Oy! Niteshift! Put another shrimp on the...whatchamacallit!

So we go on through a musical movement, hooked by the unfolding story and the melody to which it is sung. Now we're ready to hear that musical movement repeated in a 2nd verse with new words advancing the story, sustaining 'hook factor' with words and melody and instrumental accompaniment.

If, instead, we get a variation of melody that is trying to be the same melody as the musical movement we've heard and become familiar with, only, this time, it's got extra notes, or not as many, and so it's different... Well, that can work, if it's done with intention and not by accident, and especially not as a slave to a lyric that didn't consider prosody, the marrying of the melody and lyric, and which didn't intend to set a pattern which will repeat in the 3rd and 4th verses. Songs can be very flexible in structure, but they have to obey structures they establish. They need enough repetition to give them that structure and enough change to keep us hooked. If no two verses match we... I don't know what we do but we don't listen.

I would have no qualms, if you are absolutely sure you're not missing the prosody they intended, the pattern of melodic difference of the 2nd verse being repeated in the 4th, and that your acumen for reading the first verse simply is so below the average listener's that you should not ride your trike without a helmet, no qualms saying, "I don't get this one and can't come up with the music for it. I talk funny and I'm sorry."

Your own name attached to a lyric that contains amateurish flaws could suffer, even if you can overcome it melodically. Others could think you scammed the lyricist, you ol' Song Shark you, or have poor judgment of what makes a good song and are to be avoided, and, yes, you may talk funny.

One factor, very important, that I didn't address: You like this person and their lyrics, so you want to make every effort to maintain what perhaps has been and can continue to be a productive relationship. I was too busy trying to sound clever so I neglected that very strategic factor. Still, if you cannot come to accord on the need for improvements, I think you must have the right to withdraw from partnership on that song. It sounds as if it has too many flaws to garner commercial success, although listening to the radio and watching the tv, it seems almost anything can get recorded.

I've given up co-writes.I always need lyrics but the lyricists I have worked with have been amateurish in content and amateurish in their approach to the work.

Usually muscians have some sort of training/experience in their dicipline but everybody thinks they are an undiscovered lyricist!

I have met people who think they just have to write a few crap words and then wait for the money to start rolling in.

Tammy, I don't have time to read through this whole thread and it is hard to give advice to you because I would be coming from exactly the same POV as you, which is: I write music and lryics and my colaborations are usually with lyricist. I know this would be hard for me but this is how I would try to understand how your co-writer might feel. Imagine the best lyrics that you have written (and you probably wrote the music as well) and then imagine that it was going to be rewritten by someone else! That may be the way the co-writer feels. On the other hand, you have to stay true to your own artistry and it may be the case that you will have to withdraw from the project- and that means withdrawing your music- Your co-writer is not intitled to your music if you cannnot complete the song together. If the involvemnent of other's is more evidence that the co-write is not going to fly, I'd get out.

Maybe give it up when you just don't feel it anymore?

No one can say that you didn't try, and (in terms of songwriting) forcing yourself to create something out of nothing is not considered to be very healthy.

If you KNOW what crap lyrics are then it should be no trouble to write some that aren't...

I think I'm a good writer but I also know I don't write to everybody's tastes... I know what I think crap lyrics are too... Sadly some of those have been of songs charting at the time.... which tells me I don't know it all and so now I write to make me happy What kind of songs do you want to write Porkpie? Want to try a collab? Maybe I can change your mind about untrained lyric writers

Cheers

Oh boy! I have to say that as a lyricist, I have the same problem with musicians! Being able to play an instrument and read music does not a composer make. I don't know how many 'composers' I have tried to work with who have no idea about songwriting!

My experience is, that now, before I agree to co-write with someone, I need some tangible evidence of their ability to compose compelling melodies and chord structures and have a basic understanding of song structure.

Yep. Just because one marriage ends in divorce does not mean that marriages do not work.

" Imagine the best lyrics that you have written (and you probably wrote the music as well) and then imagine that it was going to be rewritten by someone else! "

It gets back to that age-old argument-Is it a lyric if it's not being sung? I agree with the thought process that says there's no such thing as a stand-alone lyric, (not yet married to music) meaning it's just a poem at best. So, if a lyric is not complete without music, then it is perfectly logical to expect that in order to bring the two together, there will continue to be some rewriting (even after it was determined that the lyric was COMPLETED) in order to fulfill the "destiny" of the lyric.

I realize that many naive lyricists, especially those that write with no regard to symetry, meter, prosidy, etc don't understand this. There was a quote in Jason Blume's Songwriting book from a very well known lyricist who said that he most likely would have had more hits, and earlier, if he had been willing to rewrite, rewrite, rewrite earlier in his career.

Jake

Sorry Jake but I find this generalised comment offensive. I suggest you actually take the time to learn the definition of a lyric.

This is EXACTLY Lisa's and my point about so called composers... who for all intents and purposes appear not to know sh!T from clay... This attitude of I WRITE MUSIC SO I AM RIGHT... that demonstrates an inability to accecpt that a collaboration is an EQUAL partnership. In truth as a composer when they are presented with a lyric they do not have the skill/ ability to write to... they will blame the lyric writer and demand the lyric is re written or take it upon themselves to rewrite... usually in a substandard manner. And if the lyric writer suggests the composer should try something else the composer accuses the lyric writer of being difficult and unbending.

Most lyric writers are very willing to do re writes when there are sections that do not fit the structure AS WELL as the rest of the song ... what we don't like is having it completly rewritten by folk who would not have come to us if they could write a decent lyric in the first place.

It also peeves me ... A song has two copyrightable parts for a collaboration... melody and lyric... many composers expect the lyric writer to write both the lyric and melody then they take credit for "Music" effectively stealing melody copyright from the lyric writer when they have only done the arrangement.... and in somecases change a few words and also demand a portion of the lyric credit as well... Lyric writers desperate to get music to their lyric .. often accept this as par for the course.

I'll get off my soap box rant now...

Cheers

Noel

Seems the Nashville writer has contradicted himself and sent a critique completely the opposite as the last one he sent. He is asking for changes of something he wanted left in the first place. We have now stepped out on our own. I am so relieved because now we can make headway. My co writer see's that he is human and has perhaps forgotten what he wrote in the first critique. I have found some freedom now and we are making changes. It is getting closer to completion. We dove into a 2nd song which is flowing easy and I love the lyrics they wrote on this one. The music is coming very easy. Perhaps it was the first song that was just difficult all the way around. Thank God things are working out. I really value my friendship with this person and I do think they are a gifted lyricist. I just wanted them to be open to changes. That is what makes a great collaberation.

Tammy

www.tammyedwards.com

Tammy, I'm glad it's working out for you. Good writing partners are hard to come by. Hopefully you'll find great success together.

Neil, life is way too short to be offended over a discussion on lyrics-it's all good brother.

Jake

Hey Tammy glad you sorted it out. I kinda thought there was something not quite right the way the Nashville writer kept asking for changes. Some of these guys have hidden agendas or are just plain nuts. You will have learned a lot of valuable lessons.
When writing a song you have to alter the lyrics to fit the tune or vice versa and everyone should accept that. IT IS CALLED COMMON SENSE. When writing lyrics you need three things. 1. Inspiration. 2. A working knowledge of rythmn and patterns. 3. Erasers.

Hi Tammy,

So glad its finally coming together. That's great news. I hope we will all get the opportunity of hearing the results when the song is finished...?

FYI - I believe that co-writers (both lyricist and composer) need to be open to making changes in order for the two elements to come together harmoniously. How can two seperately created entities come together without the need for minor concessions? To my mind, rewrites are essential in cases like these.

Good news Tammy,

my fingers are crossed for your continued success.

-steve