JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum American Idol Songwriting Contest

If I could match up the AI contestants with the songs I would like them to sing, it would be something like this:

Blake singing, “This is my now”, "In your eyes", “I see stars” and “Close to me”

Melissa singing anything really, but I would like to hear what she would do with, “If you ask me” and “All the love your heart can hold” (she will make it sound a hell of a lot better than the demo)

Jordan singing “Tonight”, “Someday”, “One night” (if she was given a good second verse) and “Love me till the lonely is gone” (this song gets better and better the more I listen to it and out of her mouth, it would be fantastic)

Lakisha singing “I’ve got to me”, “Next big thing”, “Send me on my way”

Simon singing, “You never gave up on me” just kidding, they should just run the song over credits.

“Secrets and lies”- nobody. Blake wouldn’t sound good and it’s a guy’s song.

I feel for the writer of "One night". First of all, whoever you are, congratulations! Your song is in the company of songs recorded with a lot of production and processing and your song held it's own with a simple piano/vocal. I don't know if the Stevie Wonder notes are going to be a problem or not but even hearing the similarities, it doesn't bother me. Like I said before, your song was my underdog favorite and I would love to hear Jordan sing it. She will need that second verse, but guess what? You are now an insider and have an inside track to her first album. Write a killer second verse, sort out the "note" issue if it is even necessary, and get it to Jordan's people. This dance isn't over. She is going to need some good songs and you have one.

Actually you are thinking of the Diane Warren Penned Song "If You Ask Me To" which was a hit for (I think) Patti Labelle and then Celine Dion.

There's a lot of similarities to these songs and many others. That's what happens in Pop music. Country music is worse. They are often the same song as many previous hits, just with different lyrics, hence the Country focus on Lyrics which you don't find anywhere else. It seems the same old progressions (much like Blues music) with similar melodies is okay as practice in Country and Blues music, where as the same old Lyric cliches are okay in Pop and R&B music. At least it seems that way from the outside looking in.

Brian

Thanks, Brian-

I guess those were the ones I thought were Whitney Houston's.

Well, I should have a much better setup for writing and recording when I get my new computer back. I hope to come up with better songs (ofcourse, aren't we all seeking that!) and cleaner tracks.

Since I have critiqued the finalist songs, I should at least work on trying to write something as good as the 10 stars or better.

Thanks again,
for your input.
Greta

geez, maybe I was in a bad mood last night when I did my voting but most of the songs got 2 through 4's. I gave a couple of 5's and a 9 and one 10. I don't know. Some just weren't on the mark. Even if I were to buy it off the shelf it didn't do much to move me. I think I was being fair. Even if the song was great and not on the mark for what they were looking for a gave it a fair vote. It really will be interesting to see how this thing turns out.

Tam

www.tammyedwards.com
www.myspace.com/tammyedwards1

Thanks for the encouragement. I am going to print it and hand it to her.
2nd verse is being worked on with a note or two change.

Thanks

"One Night"

First let me say that I have no sour grapes about the writer's success. I said that I liked the song; that it manages to be soothing and still have power in the chorus; that I was rooting for it coz it was a piano/vocal demo etc.

Now having said that, it is entirely possible that the writer came up with that note sequence on his/her own but you'd have to square that with the fact that "I just called to say I love you" is a really really well-known song. And, I believe that is the legal test -- or part of it at least -- the likelihood that you heard the putatively original song. If a composer in, say, Outer Mongolia came up with a beautiful, haunting melody and another composer in, say, Tierra del Fuego came up with the same melody you'd be willing to entertain the notion that they came up with the same melody independently. But if this writer is a US resident and is a lover and writer of sappy love songs, is of a certain age, has seen certain movies, watched certain commercials (I am introduced to many songs through car and jewlery commercials) it becomes harder to accept that they have not heard "I just called to say I love you"

Of course I don't think the writer sat there playing back Stevie and cherry-picking the bits and pieces that they liked. What probably happened is that the writer heard the Stevie song a long time ago, maybe they heard it just once in a movie or something and that melodic line stuck in their brains for years (I mean the last time I heard "I just called to say I love you" must be well over 10 years ago) and then as they were writing "One night" it just came out. Perhaps it was prompted by the lyric "shoots through the sky and seems to fall right where you are" which, by the way, is a great line and just happens to fit the melodic line perfectly. Perhaps it just came out in the heat of the moment.

I look at this type of accidental copying as part of the creative process. It happens all the time but what you need to do is recognize it when it happens and adjust the melodic line accordingly. Try taking it some place different. This is hard to do because you become attached to your melody and when the lyric fits so perfectly it is especially hard. But you've got to do it or else you run the risk of people suggesting you are not honest even if you suffer no legal liability. And you run the risk of tarnishing an otherwise great song. Those 10 or 12 notes shouldn't hold the rest of the song hostage. What surprises me is that it got this far without someone saying something and this is where it can cross the line from accidental to intentional copying. And maybe that was why I might have sounded a harsh tone in my criticism of the song. Coz I assumed that if it is a Top 20 song that means tons of people have heard it and given it their seal of approval... and that someone must have pointed out the connection to Stevie and if this happened then this means that at some point someone made a willful decision to proceed.

Now, maybe the similarities are not enough to constitute infringement but if it were my song I would not take that chance... especially when there are so many other great things about the song. And for me when I heard it I made the connection right away to Stevie Wonder... and I think a lot of other people did. As creative people we are necessarily borrowing from those that came before us, but the goal is to take and do something different with it; to take enough but certainly not so much that it becomes obvious where your inspiration came from.

What happened with "One night" is not a deal breaker for me. Change those 12 notes and you still have a great song. It's part of the creative process.

I remember reading somewhere that when McCartney wrote Yesterday he went around humming it to people asking if they'd heard it before because he felt it was so familiar and so accesiblie he didn't trust that it had come from him.

Dear Logicallewie,

I didn't mean to sound harsh in my remarks. And I apologize if I was unduly cruel. And i don't want to be known as a holier-than-thou crusader or witch-hunter because I am not. I too would be crushed if I was accused of piracy. But I would rather hear it in a forum like this rather than from a hostile lawyer in a cross-examination inopen court. If I sounded harsh it was because I could not believe that nobody pointed out the connection and so i assumed there was deliberate action on some level.

I think she should change the 12 note sequence to avoid, as they say, "even the appearance of impropriety". She could keep the same notes for "shoots through the sky and seems to" and then instead of going up as the Stevie song does she could take it back down. There is a pretty natural note sequence if she tries to go down the scale rather than up the scale.

I hope this helps.

Regards,

Andrew

It's hard for me to believe that a mere 12 notes would be subject to copyright - it shouldn't be anyway IMHO. It is only a single line, and to change it on 'One Night' might weaken it slightly. The two songs have a very different feel too. I agree that 'One Night' is a very nice song and could be quite powerful with some orchestration.

"One night" is my pick to win.
Close second is "Waking In A Dream"

Been on some other sites again tonight following links to the writers sites. Most have done major things in the business. Lots of complaints from the regular folks (songwriters) about the rules being greater defined for next year. Looks like Scott Krippayne is the songwriter for "This is my now" He is a major player in this. Had multi platinum hits for people like Sandi Patti and other big CCM artists. I can see why he is a finalist.

Let's be honest here. This was not an amatuer contest. I will say that till my dying day. I hope they restate the rules for next year. Call it what you may. This was NOT the same competition for us as it was for the vocalists. They were plucked off the streets from all over the place. Just know if you enter next year, this is what you will be up against. Man won't ya be glad when the hoopla is over with?

Tammy

Jordin Sparks and Melinda Doolittle are not Amateurs either. Both have had a long track record performing at a high level. Jordin originally got on the AI radar screen when she tried out for American Juniors years ago. She's been on that circuit a long time and that's why she's so amazing at only 17. Melinda has been touring and singing with the biggest in the business. When you can afford any background singer you want, you pick only the best and she was one of them. How is that any different than Scott Krippayne getting a shot at his biggest success ever? In my opinion, there's no difference at all. I am also not aware of any limits other than age and not being under contract for the AI contestants. Are you? If so, what are they? They've had a lot of contestants with successful bands and careers. That guy that supposedly "quit" just before the final 12 a couple years ago was totally connected in the industry. He had to quit because he sexually harrassed one of the staffers (legal action followed).

The point here is that ANYONE, connected or NOT could enter. And we know for a fact that SOME of the contestants are clearly less experienced in the business than Melinda and Jordin are. Just because you have a shot doesn't mean you don't have to compete at a very high level. We know from our awards that even people no one has heard of without a single cut can be amazingly talented with world class albums and songs. Tammy did it. Melody Guy (who may finally have her first cut, but otherwise is one of the best writers I've ever come across) has done it. Bob Malone.. Erika Luckett.. SKAMP... Cheley Tackett.. Eclipse...Cindy Alexander.. Kerry Getz.. Seth Horan... Zak Morgan.. and I can go on and on.. all without major label deals.. all without major label cuts.. all amazingly talented. They all crank out stuff as good or better than the final 20 on a regular basis. And that's just a handful of your competition. In fact, I suggest that your toughest competition is among folks like that.. not those people who are already there.. they're jaded and fat and happy. The hungry and talented unknowns are far more formidible talent. Jordin is one of those people. Melinda is just amazingly gift, but if not for AI she's always be in the background.. but Jordin would be a star regardless.. and so will some of the folks we find in our awards. And in my opinion, I'd put any of these folks up against any major label act without blinking once.

So.. amateurs do not equal untalented, as much as labels and the RIAA would want people to believe that. Artists only motivated by money and fame rarely stand the test of time. But through history, the struggling little guys have made some of the best art. Mozart died a pauper.

Brian

12 notes may or may not be legally actionable under the copyright laws but that is a big chance to take. And even if it is not actionable under the copyright laws, a note for note similarity with a very famous song is not a good thing to be known for. There is, after all, more at stake than not being sued -- your reputation.

And if changing the 12 notes makes the song a little weaker then IMHO so be it. Ur right that the 2 songs have a different feel but that melodic line jumped out at me right away and it did for a bunch of other people... I think you save yourself a lot of aggravation by changing it...

yay! i've been upgraded to a "serious contributer"!

Logicallewie, Look for a private message. If you are new then just look for the flashing envelope at the top of the forum page. When you click it, you should be able to read the message.

joe

Thanks Andrew,

Actually I do appreciate this forum very much and you have helped me with your clear reasoning on the piracy issue. This JPF forum is amazing. The witch-hunter reference was not directed at you or any contributor to JPF. There was an AI thread with an angry mob feel that was nasty. No real logic or depth.
The general public can be a scary crowd to be judged by. It is nice to have peers to talk to keep one from believing that they are crazy.

Thanks for the suggestions on the Fix.

I am curious about your thoughts on the Kellie Pickler song referenced in my prior email.

Thanks

Lewis

Wow!
Thanks Joe for the interest in this song. I will pass your suggestions on to her. (She's a former Texan)
You have great ideas and it will help guied her with a new image with same "special meaning".

Soon enough, after the winner is announced, she will start posting too.

Thanks for the time you spent on this.

If you have any songs you have written you can point me to I'd love to hear them.

Thanks for the reminder! It's great to stay grounded in the reality that we do it because we love it. If we get reimbursed in our lifetimes, great. If not, we still loved it. That's so true. And, I hope Melinda makes it to the finale. I think she deserves to be there.


___________________________________________________________________________________
the song I wrote was with Melinda in mind: www.myspace.com/hangcat
Help Me Reach Out

If she doesn't make it, I agree that she can re-write if need be. It's a very moving song. It was my favorite on first listen. If there's a copyright issue, it can easily be fixed. Kudos to her for making it this far.

That's a great story.

You are right. JPF has taught me a great deal in my short time here.

I don't know the james taylor song but I'll track it down and let you know what i think.

Jordin Sparks would really sing "If you asked me to" well.

the rules didn't say writers had to be amatuers
it said they had to be able and willing to sign over their publishing if their song won

some staff writers are in captive deals where everything they write is owned by their publisher.

There's plenty of great writers who aren't.

Just wanted to say I think all top 3 deserve to win. They did a super job last night and they are all winners!!

Tammy

www.tammyedwards.com
www.myspace.com/tammyedwards1

9 songs sung by the remaining three and every one was excellent. Nothing negative could be said about any of them and the worst thing I heard said was Simon saying he didn't like hearing a 17-year-old singing a 60-year-old's song-or was that a "60-year-old song" (Jordan Sparks singing "I who have nothing")

I am wondering why I haven't heard the TV show host mention anything about the song contest?

Idol is a little different now,
from the first season the winner got the recording contract.

Last season,
Kellie, Elliott, Katherine, and Taylor made CDs

There's no doubt that all 3 of the finalists will make CD's

The questions now are

which of the other finalists will get contracts?
I bet Sanjaya will.

Who will do the best in terms of sales and chart success?

Who's going to build a career?

Who's going to be a one hit wonder or a none hit wonder?

Ande

I am on the road so I didn't get to see AI this week. Linda told me that Melinda was clearly the best on the show and Jordin had the most potential. But I read on another post that Melinda was voted off. Sad. She's the one who really needed AI the most and she really IS the best singer they've ever had on the show. For her to finish 3rd may be the first red flare that AI has jumped the shark. Don't get me wrong, Jordin would be a fine winner, but Melinda clearly was the best singer. Jordin will win this in a landslide next week. Not much suspense left. I was looking forward to a head to head showdown between the two of them.

Jordin didn't need AI. She was going to be a star. I hope Melinda get's a well deserve deal and they market her and give her the shot she earned. The voters, as voters often do, got it wrong. And that's why lame pop is played endlessly on the radio. That's what people like and ask for. To be pissed at the labels for giving you crap is stupid. That's what people want. Like it or not.

Ack. It does look like those "guy" songs in the AI song contest just got a boost.

Brian

I have to admit I am sad that Melinda was voted off last night. They are all great! Truly talented. But Melinda was vocally outstanding and I thought it should go to her.

About the songs. I can see now that Blake is in the finals it does open the door for one of the songs that has nothing to do with the American Idol journey being picked for him to sing. Don't be suprised now if that happens if he wins. That may totally change the kinds of songs that can be submitted for next years contest. That means anything goes people. You can submit things that aren't "fluffy". Everyone should be excited about that! lol

Tammy

www.tammyedwards.com
www.myspace.com/tammyedwards1

Can you imagine Blake beat-boxing to "Tonight"?? Now, that will add some humor to it all.

If that is the case I do hope Jordin will be singing it. It would be nice to hear her do that song.

Tammy

Has anyone said who won? Or is it a surprise? Or are they sworn to secrecy or what exactly?

Brian

On the American Idol site, it states that the winner of the contest will be announced May 22nd/23rd.

It is well documented that I do not care much for A I or its british counterpart X factor. However, in the UK, final positions in these type of shows does not really matter. Over the years it has been proved that the minor placed people still make it and in some cases have a better career. There are many examples of the winner not having the same success as the runner up or even third place. Some winners were forgotten after one or two songs whilst so called losers are regular top tenners. It all depends on who Simon Cowell thinks will make him the most money and who is prepared to tow the line.

Congratulations to J. Peabody & Scott Krippayne
who wrote

"This Is My Now"

and to all the writers who were in the top 20

http://www.americanidol.com/songwriter/index.xhtml

'Now': That's what I call music for 'Idol'
http://www.usatoday.com/life/television/news/2007-05-22-idol-songwriters_N.htm

Crown may be Jordin's for a song
http://www.usatoday.com/life/television/news/2007-05-22-idol-analysis_N.htm

http://www.scottkrippayne.com

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/artsentertainment/2003718240_songwriters23.html