JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Critiquing songs to commercial radio or INDUSTRY standard

Larry's recent post re Taxi raised the issue of what standard people are critiquing. Obviously there are a whole range of different standards and levels and it's inappropriate ( and possible hurtful ) to critique a song from a happy well adjust died in the wool amateur to the level expected by the " INDUSTRY ".

Equally for someone with professional ambitions but not necessarily capabilities ( ie someone like me ....:( )
a comment along the lines of " this is a really nice song " when the person just doesn't want to hurt my feeling isn't what I really want to hear.

Maybe a seperate forum where people can post with the expectation of getting " honest feedback " and can give " honest feedback " without worrying about different expections.

What would Industry standards be?

My thoughts .
Complete songs ( you don't pitch lyrics ) .
Recording level not relevant unless requested. ( part of the reason is to get feedback prior to demo ).
Standard of song - That which would get an independant writer , who isn't the artist / producer / friend of the artist etc into the professional level

Cliff

Cliff, no matter what rules or expectations you set, you will always get back patting. The back patting even gets worse when you become friends with those who are going to critique you.

I think the best thing to do is to avoid back patting others, yourself, and add a little phrase at the beginning of your post to encourage those who read your songs to express themselves honestly and not worry about how you will take it. As the others get used to your expectations of honesty, they may gather the courage to say what they really think. Your critiques may stick out amongst the back patting, but that's OK. When people realize you say what you really think, they will look forward to your critiques.

One of the reasons the new Mentor Critique Forum was created was to teach us how to give an honest, constructive critique. People need to learn how to accept criticism gracefully and give it constructively. It takes a lot of practice and tolerance to get to that point.

The only way to get a critique that you want is to be up front when you ask. Tell the people who are going to do the review what standards you want it held to. Otherwise it's a crap shoot and people will likely give you the easiest review they can.

Also, this concept of getting a 'higher standard' of critique was discussed a month or so ago when a similar thing happened on another song review over on the MP3 or Lyric board.

Obviously some people are wanting that level of critique that isn't a pat on the back but a real honest harsh look at what you've created. So as I mentioned before, tell people up front what you're looking for. That way you'll likely get what you want.

Jody

If you put stuff on a public accessable forum, you get wha6tever opinion, of whatever standard anybody wants to offer.
Not to put lyrics up hoping for a few comments aimed at commercial viability seems pointless to me given, even the do it for the love of it writers mostly wouldn't knock back a chance to get a money spinning cut.
Lyrics are put up not only for critique, but also in the hope they may find music, and so a real life.
I agree with the recording and production standards should not enter the equation unless the poster touts themselves as a writer/artisat.
Then they ned to be close to, if not at radio ready.
Graham

Too many years ago , I spent about two years getting together with three other people. We'd write one new song every 2-3 weeks and then critique them. People were very honest in their opinions .

No point in back slapping. The only person you fool if you do that is yourself.

At the moment I don't have much time to critique , but the reality is if I did , I'd much perfer to spend my time critique someone who is only a beginner but is ambitious , or someone who is almost there, but has a couple of flaws in their writing , or someone who is brilliant at one element of writing but sucks at other psrt , rather that someone who has been writing for years and is good , but has no professional ambitions but is here for friendship and a shared hobby.

There are so many songs on the forum and you couldn't hope to critque all of them.

For someone to spend half an hour ( or longer ) on doing what they think is a professional review is a waste of time if the recepient isn't interested in that level of feedback. Someone recently posted a critique of needle and the damage done after the lyrics were posted.

If someone is wanting to co-write with other people , honest , too the point reviews are also going to make people aware of the degree of ability other writers have in that area.

If I post a song and someone says , The melody works well upto the end of the verse , but when you go into the prechorus you need to build up the tension a bit more leading into the chorus , you could think about shortening the phrase length , speeding up the chord changes or maybe taking the melody up above the melody in the verse etc. I'm more likely to take note of that person that some one who says , " Yeah , man It's really good... "

Anyone can write a song , but knowing when it's good and what bits don't work is another skill set again , and it's usually much easier to do on someone elses songs than your own ...:(

Cliff

Let's not hoist that song of Larry's up to indicate anything. It's a really terrible song.. poorly written, and poorly executed. There's nothing redeeming about it from a technical point of view. The only thing it represents is the all too common level of delusion that people have about how good their own work is. That song should have NEVER gotten forwarded. TAXI did the right thing. Instead of being praised for common sense, someone wanted to trash them for doing the right thing. By doing so, he exposed his own delusion. He admits on one hand that it's a weak song, but has the delusion that his weak, half assed own effort that he knows is crap in his heart, should still be good enough to compete with top notch professionals best efforts. It's the same way delusional people get exposed on American Idol. That's the only lesson to be learned or observation to be made from that song.

Brian

Obviously. Some people are better song writers and better at critiquing than others . If I want to go to a songwriting forum I come here or MM I don't go to another hang out of mine at somersoft. What's wrong with having somewhere to go if I want to get objective reviews of songs. Ok maybe expectations won't be met, but at least people whould know the expectation and ground rules are there .



I agree , but if you accept that the aim of critiquing is to produce industry standards, then the writer shouldn't get offended and started debating comments such as " The titles not in the song " That is an industry standard for outside writers .

Or if the writer comes back at suggested story changes with " but that's not what happened " or But that's not what I'm trying to say " ... The aim of critiquing is to produce the best commercial song and you shouldn't let the truth or you aims get in the way .



Then they'd go on a lyric forum



Agree

Cliff

I've done a fair bit of critiquing in my day - I belong to 5 songwriting boards and I probably review an average of one song a day... today I wrote 3. I usually take my cue from the level of songwriting in front of me. If it's an obvious newbie, I look at the story and the emotion being expressed, and give feedback on how they can construct that better. Otherwise 99% of my feedback is given with the idea that the other songwriter is wanting to grow and learn in craft. I dont' expect that everything I say is right, it's only my opinion.

If it bothers you to get feedback within a commercial framework when you just want to know if the song works or not -- then you should say so when you post it. IMO it's very hard to always separate the two. Even if a writer is writing for self-expression, the fact that they are using the medium of music to express that thing means that there are conventions of structure, contrast, rhyme scheme, a story-line that makes sense, the need for a conclusion or a hook that brings it all together.

On another board I belong to, they have a 'BSP' forum - blatant self promotion - that's where you post the stuff you just want a pat on the back for.

I recently had another jpf member tell me that the lyric and mp3 forums are mostly bs. You can't get good feedback there. I think if you preface your stuff with a request for brutally honest feedback you might get some good crits. There is also always the issue of contribution; you have to give in order to get. You have to spend some time on those boards, critting others you feel competent to crit (ie, genre, etc) in order to expect any honest feedback from others. When was the last time you scrolled deeply into those boards trying to find an opportubity to help someone?

The most successful way to get critique, and critique in a manner you want, is by example.
Critique a good few in whatever forum you are working, in the manner you hope to get some back.
You will still get the backslaps and kicks in the teeth, but if you use the experience to learn how the other members work, and then work those when they post, I am sure any forum can work.
We get the society we deserve most times i believe.
Back slapper forums, I wouldn't waste my time at.
Likewise for the slap you right down ones.
If the give and take thing doesn't work, find another forum and try that.
I really believe working too many forums has to cut down a person's ability to be able to do any effectivly, and for the common good.
Graham

I'd agree with that.

Also comes down to time , and yes it is a matter of leading by example , but if a forum existed with the expressed aim of providing somewhere to give and receive critiques for people aiming at an industry standard , then at least it gives people who have that as their aim a place to focus their efforts.

I would have thought there are enough people of JPF with that aim to make it a worthwhile addition to the board.

There are a lot of talented people here who I'm sure could say a lot more than they do say , and one factor that might restrain them is fear of offending people .

It might not work , but there's one way to find out.

Cliff

You ask "What are the industry standards for a song critique?"
The answer is simple they do not have any standards. Just look at the garbage that is in the "charts" and the so called AI expert panel.
For an honest critique you must consult your peers. Family and friends are usually biased and therefore opinions are usually not worth considering.
Generally JPF critiques are honest and positive. Yes there are a lot of people say they "like the song" but quite a few people will analise the lyrics and melody and make honest, positive suggestions pointing out weaknesses and strengths. By sifting out the "poor" and the BS you can get a pretty good idea of where your song is at. Without naming any individuals there are certain people who's critiques are more balanced and informative than others. You must remember that there are a lot of different genres represented. Take into consideration the genre of the persons giving a critique eg Country critiqueing a Rock song and vice versa. You want someone knowledgable in your song's particular genre.
It may be worth while having established who the experts are sending them a message asking them for help and a critique.

Lots of good points here. Working off of what Big Jim said though, consider the difficulties involved:

(1) People post for many reasons: Thumbs up/down, just sharing, please give detailed feedback on song, is this demo ready to pitch, is this song radio ready?

(2) As Big Jim mentioned, many genres. On the mp3 board, I've seen country, folk, rock, pop, easy listening, blues, metal, classical and even more than a few hip/hop.

(3) With a couple of exceptions, the critiquers are amateurs. We are making it up as we go, much as with our songwriting.

(4) We all have our biases as to the kind of music we like. Sometimes this is obvious but most go out of their way to separate this out from their critiques.

(5) And yes, I think it is human nature that as a group of people interact in a forum over a long time, there are bound to be some friendships that develop and take the edge of the critiques.

When you think about it, the surprise is not that people sometimes complain about the forums. The surprise is that they work at all

Sure, you can split them up into amateur and pro forums. I think Brian moved in this direction with the new mentor forum. The reviews there are (by and large) more critical than the mp3 forum.

But right now, the odds of getting your song critiqued seem to be about 1 in 20.

You can get detailed feedback from a professional if you are willing to pay for it......

Bottom line comes back to Graham's point, I think. Review others the way you would like to be reviewed. After a few months you'll start to get them.

Scott

Edit: I sometimes think songwriters are the worst critics anyway. This point has been made before so it is hardly original to me. We often seem to pick things to death that the average listener doesn't give a hoot about. Makes me think it would be cool to have a forum where the only restriction on reviewers is that they have never written a song and never want to. Reviews would be limited to thumbs up or down

Of course, some bozo would then quickly pack the forum with friends to inflate his numbers so he could show them to a publisher

Nope - advantages and disadvantages to everything. Same as it's always been..

I started posting on songwriting forums 4 years ago, and I've learned a lot from doing so. Many of the things I read later in books by Sheila Davis, John Braheny & Jason Blume I gleaned from reading feedback on other people's work, giving my own feedback, and posting my own work for review.

I think forums are useful to help develop the song or make sure it is coming across the way you think it is... then I get the feedback of a pro before doing the final demo. Either custom critiques from Taxi, instructor feedback at SongU, or via professional critique services from John Braheny or Jason Blume. NSAI is another possibility.

I'll say one more thing - if you are frustrated with the feedback that you get on your work, be more proactive. When you send a song for feedback to a pro, you state your questions. The mentor critique forum asks that you specify your goal for the piece, the genre, etc., that's a good practice. And, if you only give feedback on songs that have been posted with a clear indication that the writer would like a thoughtful, honest, supportive review about the song... then you won't waste your 'giving feedback time'. I don't think you are going to find any songwriting forum that is perfect in this department. And that's because these are public boards and members have varying levels of experience, have trouble separating themselves from their work (or their critiques), and experience the same level of dysfunction and function as any gathering of human beings. If you want a professional review, then be willing spend the money to get one. Otherwise, take what is offered here with good grace.