JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum Near Rymes, Imperfect Rhymes...Whatever You Want To Call Them. What Do You Think?

In my 6 years on the boards at JPF (mostly the lyrics boards until recently), I have seen this subject discussed and debated on a number of occassions. I have heard them called by several different names...near rhymes, half rhymes, imperfect rhymes, partial rhymes, etc. A couple of examples:

of/was, bright/like, water/father, won/some, drum/done

I think you get the idea. I don't hesitate to use them, as long as the words are fairly close. The ones that I listed above are all okay with me. However, I know some writers who would not use them at all for a hundred bucks.

Also, if you do use them, how far are you willing to stretch for a rhyme? Here is where I draw the line...somebody posted a lyric a few years ago and rhymed "round" with "about". For me, that's a little too much of a stretch. I guess my biggest stretch was "Schenectady/Hysterectomy" in my song "Aunt Edna's Operation", that I posted on Lyrics Board 2 in September of 2004. Actually, I'm kinda proud of that one!

So, what do think? Give me an example of the longest reach for a rhyme that you have used. Looking forward to your thoughts about this!

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If I were but half as good as Dawg...I'd be twice as good as most.

Don't take more than your love can buy,
Don't live faster than your angel can fly...
Hal Ketchum

Alan on Soundclick

Alan's Web Site


[This message has been edited by sideman66 (edited 12-09-2006).]

i can't answer yor ask Alan, as it would take forever to find what was the biggest stretch in calling something cloe eno7ugh to a rhyme i hd used.
I believe it is all to do with phonetics.
What sounds right at any given spot. Not how perfect a rhyme it is at the time.
Graham

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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhenderson_music.htm

Is their a rhyme for ORANGE? One syllable please.

Ben, what about carnage( I know, not one syllable).

Heard a song today with love/cup. Close rhymes are great if they allow you more freedom to convey a coherent idea.I've used destiny/dreams and crash/past.

[This message has been edited by Dennis H. Harbour (edited 12-09-2006).]

[This message has been edited by Dennis H. Harbour (edited 12-09-2006).]

I have a song with near enough rhymes to orange, Purple, and Silver in it, I thought was going to make me famous, but still waiting for it to happen.
I think I called it is called, If I Could Arrange a Rhyme For Orange.
or it may have been The Orange Song.
I can't remember.
Twas fun.
I suppose that makes it all about funetics.
Graham


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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhenderson_music.htm

I just saw space shuttle Discovery go off behind the pine trees across the street from me WHAT A SIGHT TO SEE

[This message has been edited by ben willis (edited 12-09-2006).]

It was an Orange ball of fire. I've never seen anything like it.

I'm 200 miles away from Cape Canaveral and that blew me away.

Whoever can make a rhyme with the word ORANGE wins a cookie. Ben

Hi Alan, rhyme is a cool topic. I think knowing when a near rhyme works is the key. It sounds the same, sings the same, "feels" the same.
The words before/part of a questionable rhyme can make a difference.

cigarette/ to forget
at a time/off his mind
trigger/bigger
her memory/off his knees
pillow/willow
till I die/lullaby
herself/her breath
dear life/lullaby

Those are the rhymes from Whiskey Lullaby.
A couple of iffy ones there, but it's an award winning hit.

Imo, the strength of the lines is the important thing. What a line says and how it sings should be the main concern. If one has two killer lines that have "near rhymes", I say let it be. If the lines are original, and the near rhymes sing, what the heck is a "better rhyme" going to help ?

I'm not sure what my "worst" rhyme attempt is. Probably mind/mine. I was proud of that lyric till I noticed those two. And the lines they are in are cliche.

Perfect rhymes are a bear to use. Try writing a line a that you want to end with a perfect rhyme for crying. The line that ended with with the word crying may be killer, but now you become as much, or more, concerned with the rhyme choice as you are with writing another great line.
We should strive to be original and avoid predictability, but the search for that perfect rhyme makes it tough. Cliches start knockin at the door. Perfect rhymes should just happen to appear at the end of good lines.

There shouldn't, imo, be any thought of guidelines or rules concerning rhyme while writing. Just understanding whynear rhymes work is all we need to know.
Again, how they feel, sing, and sound.

Anyhow, my 2 cents.

Tony

Susy adds a touch of orange
when making her special blancmange

?



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Vikki Flawith, Canadian Singer/Songwriter & Voice Teacher
'Bird's 'Official Site'
'Bird's MySpace
ZaNy cRaZy 'Bird Blog

'Bird's fledgling *F*O*L*K* CD

Graham,

Agree with ya...whatever sounds right at the time...if it's anywhere near close. Perfect rhymes are great if you can use them without them sounding forced or too cliche'. Hope your summer is starting off just right. Of course, we're just getting into winter here.

Quoting from the great Jack Buck (a fairly recently deceased Hall Of Fame baseball announcer here in the States), "Thanks for your time, this time, until next time, have a great time"!

Alan

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If I were but half as good as Dawg...I'd be twice as good as most.

Don't take more than your love can buy,
Don't live faster than your angel can fly...
Hal Ketchum

Alan on Soundclick

Alan's Web Site

[This message has been edited by sideman66 (edited 12-09-2006).]

Ever the critic Vikki.
Suzie adds a TAD of orange.
To her maddeningly doozzie of a blancmange.
Don't mind me I grew up on that Do You remember an Inn Miranda, Tarantella thing.
Enjoy the cookie.
Graham

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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhenderson_music.htm

If you gave me a juicy orange
I'd be happy to fix your door hinge

Ben,

FYI: Here are the one and two syllable words in the American English language (vs British, Australian, etc. English) that have no perfect rhymes:

One Syllable

Angst, breadth, bulb, depth, glimpsed, month, pints, ninth, sculpts, sixth, width, warmth and warmth. Also, twelfth and stealth are almost perfecr rhymes, but not quite.


Two Syllable:

Angry, monster, chimney, luggage, orange, pizza, purple, rhythm and empty.

So, there you are! Your cookies are safe if you are looking for a PERFECT rhyme! Also, I have a friend who lives in Satellite Beach, FL. Have seen 2 shuttle launches. Yep...there pretty awesome. And now, back to the subject...what are your thoughts about imperfect rhymes?

Alan

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If I were but half as good as Dawg...I'd be twice as good as most.

Don't take more than your love can buy,
Don't live faster than your angel can fly...
Hal Ketchum

Alan on Soundclick

Alan's Web Site


[This message has been edited by sideman66 (edited 12-10-2006).]

Tony,

Welcome into the discussion. Thanks for your input. And yeah, Whiskey Lullaby is a GREAT song! Those last two rhymes that you listed are kind of iffy...but the rest of them work just fine for me.

I agree with ya on a couple of points. First, the strength of the line, overall, is most important. I couldn't agree more with ya. second, you are correct,IMNSHO, that we can lose the strength, character and message of the song if we worry more about a perfect rhyme than the story we are trying to tell in the lyrics. And third, when we force a rhyme for the sake of perfect rhyming, it often dilutes the line and/or makes it sound so cliche. As you so correctly point out...A better rhyme is not necessarily more important than a stronger line.

Can't find much of anything to disagree with ya about, Tony! And, BTW, I don't see a problem with mind/mine. Unless the lines are otherwise clunkers, they would work for me!

Best to ya and Merry Christmas!

Alan

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If I were but half as good as Dawg...I'd be twice as good as most.

Don't take more than your love can buy,
Don't live faster than your angel can fly...
Hal Ketchum

Alan on Soundclick

Alan's Web Site

[This message has been edited by sideman66 (edited 12-09-2006).]

Vikki,

Thanks for dropping in. I would call your line an imperfect but very acceptable rhyme. And, it is probably as close to ORANGE as you are going to get.

Have a good night. Hope all is well in B.C.

Alan

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If I were but half as good as Dawg...I'd be twice as good as most.

Don't take more than your love can buy,
Don't live faster than your angel can fly...
Hal Ketchum

Alan on Soundclick

Alan's Web Site

Ant,

Thanks for dropping in with your comment. And welcome to JPF. It's a pretty cool place. Hope you find what you are looking for here.

Sorry, though, can't buy into orange/hinge! No gold star for that one...but I'll give ya a silver star for the effort!

Again, thanks for taking the time to reply. I do appreciate it. Don't be a stranger!

Alan

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If I were but half as good as Dawg...I'd be twice as good as most.

Don't take more than your love can buy,
Don't live faster than your angel can fly...
Hal Ketchum

Alan on Soundclick

Alan's Web Site

Hi Alan,

Another good song-writing topic.. you seem to run across them all don't you?

This one is simple to me I dont care what I use.. as long as it works.. sounds cool and fits the piece.

I often try to avoid perfect rhymes.. it's hard to do actually.

A healthy combination of all in there i think that gives you the best feeling if you study it later.

Peace
Sub

[This message has been edited by substudio (edited 12-10-2006).]

Mornin', Sub!

Glad you are enjoying a few of these threads. Seriously doubt that I have them all...lucky to have any of them! None-the-less, most pleased that you appreciate it. In fact, I have several more waiting in the wings. The intent is three-fold. (1) Let the more experienced folks simply state their feelings about some of the mechanisms of songwriting. (2) Give the less experienced folks a chance to see what's running through the heads of the first group I mentioned. (3) It might make all of us, expereinced or not, a little more cognizant of our writing. Sometimes we don't really stop and think about what we are doing. We just write until it sounds good without giving enough thought to the effort. At least, that's what happens to me sometimes.

I'm pretty much with you, here. As long as the rhyme is anywhere near close, it will usually work for me. I have been chastised on several occassions for using imperfect rhymes. If we search for the perfect, or near-perfect rhymes all the time, do we not find our lyrics either too cliche', or not as conversational as perhaps they should be? I know I have found myself in that trap on a number of occassions. That's when I start getting lazy with my writing (a future thread!).

As always, Sub, appreciate you dropping in with your thoughts and insights. You are one of the class acts on the boards. I appreciate you taking the time to look and comment. Merry Christmas!

Alan

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If I were but half as good as Dawg...I'd be twice as good as most.

Don't take more than your love can buy,
Don't live faster than your angel can fly...
Hal Ketchum

Alan on Soundclick

Alan's Web Site

[This message has been edited by sideman66 (edited 12-10-2006).]

Very nice topic! I prefer using near rhymes because I think there is a lot more opportunity and it allows for more creativity. There are just so many exact rhymes so there comes a time when certain rhymes are overused because of lack of variety that is available.

I've used near rhymes like: show/radio, need/me, maple/fable, me/dreams, sky/flight dark/stars conversing/thirsting Not sure if any of my rhymes would be considered a stretch. But I know that I love seeing what others have come up for balancing their lyrics. Good Day! Linda

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My Sound Click

In a time of universal deceit, speaking truth is a revolutionary act", George Orwell

MySpace

Sorry Sideman I got thrown off the subject but those night takeoffs are something. A ball of fire going into the sky.Yes we're talking about my cookies.I think that you must use whatever you can get away with if you get stuck with the word Orange. How about the word Aren't is that close enough. It's one syllible. If you really streach it you can make Orange a six syllible word. It really doesn't have to be one syllible to rhyme with orange but I thought that it would be more challenging.So there I just lost my cookies. Ben

Ben, I still think 'carnage' is close

linda,

I didn't see any of the rhymes you listed as too much of a stretch. In fact, most of them are pretty darned good! And i agree with ya...use whatever sounds and feels good, keeps the line fairly conversational and gives the line strength and character. Ya got my vote on everything ya said. Glad you are enjoying these little discussions. best of everything to ya,

Alan

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If I were but half as good as Dawg...I'd be twice as good as most.

Don't take more than your love can buy,
Don't live faster than your angel can fly...
Hal Ketchum

Alan on Soundclick

Alan's Web Site

Ben,

No problem, amigo! Glad you, too, enjoy the awesome sight of the shuttle taking off. Ya got one on me, though...I've never seen a night launch. That has to be beyond description! But, just wanted to hear a little more about your thoughts on imperfect rhymes before the thread got too far beyond your post.

And I pretty much agree. Go with whatever works for you, as long as it keeps the line strong and interesting.

As I told Sub, I've been raked over the coals a few times for my rhyming choices. A couple of times I did agree with the critics. But, there were several where I was completely happy with my word choice and stayed with it, anyway. Now, if anyone can offer a better word with the same impact, and rhymes better or closer, then hey...that's great; I'll go with it and thank ya a bunch! otherwise, I'll stay with what I have until something better comes along.

Thanks for coming back with a few more of your thoughts about this. i do appreciate it a lot. Hope all is well in Florida today. Take care!

Alan

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If I were but half as good as Dawg...I'd be twice as good as most.

Don't take more than your love can buy,
Don't live faster than your angel can fly...
Hal Ketchum

Alan on Soundclick

Alan's Web Site

Good morning, Dennis!

Hope today is a really good one for ya! I'm still not sold on carnage/orange. Perhaps it's in the difference of our ennunciation. But, if it works for you, that's what counts...unless you're pitching it and that word becomes an issue for whomever you are pitching the song to. Other than that, I say if it works for you and you're happy withit...go for it!

I appreciate ya taking the time to look in on this discussion a couple of times. Thanks. Merry Christmas!

Alan

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If I were but half as good as Dawg...I'd be twice as good as most.

Don't take more than your love can buy,
Don't live faster than your angel can fly...
Hal Ketchum

Alan on Soundclick

Alan's Web Site

The plane was filled with agent ORANGE
Prepared to drop it's load of CARNAGE... dunno

how about 'syringe'



[This message has been edited by Dennis H. Harbour (edited 12-10-2006).]

Here's my attempt:

There once was a foriegn joker
Who painted with orange, ochre
Violet and grey, he was free all day
His evenings were spent more in jail
Where he'd drink his orange ale
Contemplating the cell door hinge
Trying vainly to rhyme orange



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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

I think whatever works, works; and whatever doesn't work, doesn't work.

[This message has been edited by TrumanCoyote (edited 12-10-2006).]

TrumanCoyote,

There's no disputing what you said, but...what if it works for you but not for the person to whom you are pitching it? At that point, and in the overall scheme, does it work?

Thanks for dropping in and commenting...much appreciated! And Merry Christmas to ya!

Alan

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If I were but half as good as Dawg...I'd be twice as good as most.

Don't take more than your love can buy,
Don't live faster than your angel can fly...
Hal Ketchum

Alan on Soundclick

Alan's Web Site

If a songwriter pitches a song in the forest, and there are no other songwriters around to hear it...does it still suck?

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

Sorry Ben, Dennis and Mike. Didn't mean to skip right over ya.

Ben,

Still not convinced...but not terrible, either! That's a tough rhyme alright, imperfect or otherwise! Hope ya had a great weekend!

Alan
_____________________________________________

Dennis,

You're getting closer, now! Appreciate the comeback!

Alan
_____________________________________________

Mike,

Ah...the man of many scribes pulling out his poetic plume! And, I think your effort is about as close as we're going to get with "orange". If ya kinda slur right over that "h" in "hinge", it actually sounds pretty close. You get the Gold Star that I refused to pass out earlier! Good show, Mike! If I don;t see ya before, will see ya next year at Pineyfest. Will be in Nashville area for 4 or 5 days near the end of January. If you're gonna be performing anywhere then, let me know. Will drop by to say hello.

I'm going to be visiting with Bobbie. Dawg left over a thousand lyrics on his computer that Bobbie can't get to. I'm somewhat of a computer geek, or maybe just a geek in general. Either way, I think I will be able to recover those files for her. It would be a shame to asee that much superb creativity just vanish. Later.

Alan

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If I were but half as good as Dawg...I'd be twice as good as most.

Don't take more than your love can buy,
Don't live faster than your angel can fly...
Hal Ketchum

Alan on Soundclick

Alan's Web Site

Mike,

Only if it would also suck when listened to by the intended recipient. Whoever owns the signature of approval also owns the definition of "sucks" in his arena.

Hope ya had a good weekend!

Alan

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If I were but half as good as Dawg...I'd be twice as good as most.

Don't take more than your love can buy,
Don't live faster than your angel can fly...
Hal Ketchum

Alan on Soundclick

Alan's Web Site

to stay germ free
drink vitamin C....
you will find it if..you squeeze an orange

but if it is a tickly throat
that,s gettin on your goat
then sook all day.....on a lozenge...

a wee bit of fun...Orange is a real
naughty one to ryhme with.....Terry...

Well now, that's the big question, isn't it? About EVERYTHING. Nothing works for everyone. One of the components of talent is just "knowing" what works for people. Or guessing right more than most other people.

Merry Christmas to you, too!

Terry,

Lozenge...that's one I've never seen before in an attempt to rhyme with orange. Nice! And yeah, it's a tough one, okay! Best to ya!

Alan

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If I were but half as good as Dawg...I'd be twice as good as most.

Don't take more than your love can buy,
Don't live faster than your angel can fly...
Hal Ketchum

Alan on Soundclick

Alan's Web Site

TrumanCoyote,

Well, sir, I think you hit the nail squarely on the head...trying to guess right more often than not. In some cases, the "knowing" factor comes into play. But, in the big picture, being a good guesser is the secret. Don't we just love the nuances of this business! Best of everything to ya. Later,

Alan

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If I were but half as good as Dawg...I'd be twice as good as most.

Don't take more than your love can buy,
Don't live faster than your angel can fly...
Hal Ketchum

Alan on Soundclick

Alan's Web Site

It's the communication of the song that counts most for me.

Near. On. Not even close,,,,,They all can work. It's the "song". If it appeals to most,,,,you got something. We could have perfect rhymes and the song is not liked. What good are the perfect rhymes then?

John

Hi Alan,

I just have to join in on the fun! Here are some soft rhymes for "orange". Sign me up for rhymaholics anonoymous!

I visited a country that was foreign,
While visiting I ate an orange,
It tasted more like porridge,
Which I felt down in my cartilage.
I then got in my Taurus,
And drove into the forrest,
Gee this poem is the sorriest!

Oh, back to the subject of the thread -RHYMES, Yes I love them, can't get enough of them! BUT there are great songs that don't rhyme and great ones that do. So much is in the singing of course. Then there are those songs that are just great and they may only have a couple rhymes but it works and that's because an award winning melody can carry it.

I'd really have to got back and read my lyrics to see where I streeeeetch a rhyme but I know I have a song that rhymes "thin" and "end" and it sings as though a perfect rhyme.

Best,
Lynn
P.S. You should be proud of your rhyme Schenectady/Hysterectomy

John,

Thanks for looking in and taking the time to comment. Always appreciate your insightful contributions.

Although I rarely would insist on a perfect rhyme, I guess I'm a little more conservative than you, overall. But, as Ben pointed out, Whiskey Lullaby has some pretty big stretches, and it is one of my favorite songs of the past 10 years or so.

I co-wrote one many years ago that is one of my favorite songs...If It Were Possible. Only two lines rhyme throught the entire lyric, and that is only by chance, rather than design. And, as far as I can remember, the only two lines that rhyme in Proud Mary are first two lines of the chorus. It did pretty good on the charts (and at the bank!).

Thanks again for your thoughts. If I haven't already said so, Merry Christmas to you! And if I have, hope it's twice as merry!

Alan

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If I were but half as good as Dawg...I'd be twice as good as most.

Don't take more than your love can buy,
Don't live faster than your angel can fly...
Hal Ketchum

Alan on Soundclick

Alan's Web Site

LL,

Hi again! thank you so much for your participation in these threads. I truly enjoy your visits. I post them just to see how close my ideas are to the rest of the songwriting community. It has been very informative and educational for me. Hope everyone else is getting something beneficial out of them, as well.

Well, so far I think you have the closest rhyme for orange...foreign. That's about a 90%+ match. So, I guess I'm going to have to bring out another Gold Star and award it to you! The rest of the, are pretty good, too.

And I do agree with you, and John, that a good melody and great vocal presentation can carry a song. And, sometimes, the message or story of the lyrics can be so overpowering that you simply forget everything else about the song. Amazing Grace is one of those songs for me.

Thanks again for your visit. Hope today was a good one!

Alan

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If I were but half as good as Dawg...I'd be twice as good as most.

Don't take more than your love can buy,
Don't live faster than your angel can fly...
Hal Ketchum

Alan on Soundclick

Alan's Web Site

Thank you for such nice thoughts about me. You're one of the very good people here,(among the many GOOD ones for those reading! HA!)

A Very Merry Christmas to you and your family Alan!

My middle name is Alan, just to throw that in for yet another smile!

You have more liberal songwriting in you than you think, based on all you said about your song and the other songs! You Dylan you!

John Alan

o range
no mange
so strange

ha ha ha ha ha

I once rhymed the word Chattanooga with "lose ya." Publishers sort of groaned at that, said it wouldn't work. (I groaned too actually.) Then several hit songs started having the word "ya" in them. I thought it best to change my rhyme though. It is now "lose your love" instead of "lose ya."

[This message has been edited by eb (edited 12-12-2006).]

Change Chattanooga! I like "lose ya".

Actually, I like it the way it is. It works if someone sings it great, not matter what it is. If the singer really sells it, and it's relative in the song, there ya go!

John

Hey Eb! Nice to meet ya! One of my favorite songs(in fact it's my profile song on myspace.com)by Leon Russell, Lady Blue, uses the word "ya" throughout and doesn't he do that song right!

Too bad some publishers don't remember what worked in the past. But it does depend on the genre I suppose?

I like your rhyme with chattanooga-wouldn't wanna lose ya! Maybe blues would adopt it more? Take Care, Linda

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My Sound Click

In a time of universal deceit, speaking truth is a revolutionary act", George Orwell

MySpace

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!
Please hold the applause.... if I may finish...Please......Please

I DO HEREBY accept this gold star for my rhyming of "orange" with "foreign." I promise to wear it proudly and serve my rhyming commuity as well as the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania and lastly, this great country of ours, the United State of America. I do promise to elevate the art of rhyming whenever the opportunity is afforded me. I do solemnly sware to uphold the rhyme in my everyday activities and encourage others to participate in the rhyming process. Lastly, I will not be giving out autographs since I am humbled by this high honor and will instead forever remember this day and this moment as my finest hour.

Thank you Alan for this prestigious award. I am speechless, well maybe not speechless!
(hee-hee)

Best,
Lynn

I agree with those who say whatever works for the song is what should be used (of course, whatever works is a matter of opinion). Perfect rhymes are great but too many of them not only lead to cliches but also become rather boring to the listener. It's more than reasonable to use a mixture of all types of rhymes in ways that make the lyric memorable and enjoyable to hear.

My attempt at rhyming orange (can't think of one syllable rhyme or a perfect rhyme for it)...

There's my little girl adorned
In her favorite color orange

Of course, a serious critiquer might say the word "adorned" isn't really conversational since it's not really used that often in everyday language. So if anyone can rhyme orange with something that it also conversational, would be doing something...

My advice... Don't try to rhyme with orange.



[This message has been edited by Buzz Grudge (edited 12-13-2006).]

Here's a few 'near' rhymes for orange:
barns,harms,acorns,tarnish,varnish, charms,darns,farms,

John,

I try to be decent to most folks. Some people, such as yourself, make that a very easy task. And, what I said is very true...your posts and comments are almost always insightful and helpful. I simply appreciate what you contribute here.

I'm not sure if this is true or not (seems to be, though), but I've heard it said that a lot of really talented and good-looking guys were named Alan! But, perhaps, it may be no more than rumor. Have a good one, ohn.

Alan