JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Mentor Questions Forum You Can Kiss Your Career Goodbye, If...

You make a habit of flaming people who try to help.

You develop a reputation as being "difficult."

You think, and regularly announce, that your career is going nowhere because of other people; world events; your poor life; your parents; or simply fill in the blank. When you announce this, all folks hear is...your career is going nowhere.

You are more concerned with impressing your music buddies, who aren't going anywhere with their careers, than with people who might help you.

This is a start, anyone want to add?

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

HEY.....

I do all that stuff....

So, that's it

Shame I waited this long to find out what the trouble was.

Dammit, Mike...where were you 35 years ago?

Bob

Doing the same stuff.

Seriously though, bob, 35 years ago it was easier to be difficult and still do business.

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

[This message has been edited by Mike Dunbar (edited 08-26-2005).]

Do Publishers count? A few years ago I sent a new publisher, in Music city some songs. He passed on them but told me that there were many other publishers I could submit to. No problem. I assumed I could submit songs sometime in the future. Three years later he was still listed in the Songwriter's Market accepting unsolicited material so I sent him some new songs. He replied that I should not submit any songs to him and to submit my songs elswhere. I was flabbergasted. Many Publisher's pass on songs but no one ever told me to send no more songs to them. I have from time to time received unsolicited feedback praising my songs and that I could submit anytime. This person has since disappeared from the Songwriter's Market so maybe he told one too many songwriters to "stuff it".

You badmouth people, thinking it will get you somewhere.

You're greedy with information. You don't share contacts, tips, advice, as if keeping it all to yourself gives you some kind of competitive advantage.

You don't honor your commitments. You show up late, or don't show up at all. Or, you suddenly ditch one gig for one you think is "better" and leave the former in the lurch.

You expect your fans are going to love you unconditionally, forever.

You believe people come to shows because they read flyers.

You don't know your limits. As a new act, you book yourself at the largest club in town. Ten people show up. You blame the club for not promoting your show enough.

You automatically assume that anyone more successful than you got that way because they've got more money to spend, were put there by a powerful friend, the lead singer's girlfriend's brother knows the local radio DJ, etc. Anything except hard work.

You think people are sheep because no one recognizes your creative genius.

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Scott Andrew
Lo-fi acoustic pop superhero!
http://www.scottandrew.com/music

[This message has been edited by scottandrew (edited 08-26-2005).]

The sad thing is that all the things described by Scott and Mike are actually the rule, rather than the exception out there. And that's why so many labels, publishers and industry professionals of all types get so jaded and start handing it back to them.

I've already had a dozen complaints from artists who want to know why they haven't gotten a reply to their awards submissions. In all the cases, from folks who received an email and were forced to read a webpage telling them we can't respond individually to each submission and will post one giant list when we receive everything. On top of that, I've gotten more nasty emails from people upset we haven't "nominated" them for anything when we haven't even gotten their music yet (aside from the fact that nominations won't be out until late Fall 2006). I also regularly get complaints that we haven't helped someone get a record deal, a paying gig, a publishing deal, (fill in the blank) usually from people I don't know, have never met and have never heard their music in any context. Just today, I got this actual email:

"yo I singed up 4 yor grup a month ago and aksd you to help git us a deal but havent hurd back our music is killa and we donet have time to wast on yor [naughty word removed] no more"

Of course I have no idea who these people are, what music they do, where to find it, and when I looked up their email address on our member list, it isn't even there.

Welcome to my world. I get similar IM's several times a day as well from people asking for a "rekerd deel" all the time.

Brian

Thanks Michael, that puts it all in perspective

All the Best,
Mike

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

[This message has been edited by Mike Dunbar (edited 08-26-2005).]

hmmm... I can add to your list -

- have a producer interested enough in your & your look to have you coach with a local voice teacher, get pro photos done, produce a demo for you... and waltz around cancelling sessions & putting off recording til they lose interest & write you off
- all the other ways folks with talent dillydally around thinking their looks will get them through or the world is holding its breath until they decide to show up

like the photo

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Vikki Flawith, Singer/Songwriter & Voice Teacher

This bird sings at:
http://www.soundclick.com/vikkiflawith
http://www.mixposure.com/victoriaflawith
http://www.broadjam.com/artists/artistindex.asp?artistID=15275

Blog: http://theshysinger-songwriter.blogspot.com/

So Brian...

Why haven't you got me a publishing deal with curb records yet? You Promised..

I thought JPF does this for Folks...

"cuz yo I singed up 4 yor grup yeerz ago"

I'm goin over the falls again Michael

(Quote) "yo I singed up 4 yor grup a month ago and aksd you to help git us a deal but havent hurd back our music is killa and we donet have time to wast on yor [naughty word removed] no more"

That's one of the gripes I've heard from folks in the music industry. A letter or song full of words spelled wrong, etc. I mean, dang, you don't even really have to spell that good anymore. Their computer service should have spell check. If not, they can get it. It'll catch everything except one that's a real word, just not the right word. Like bare and bear. The problem with the above is that some of it is so bad spell check wouldn't even know what word it was supposed to be.
A letter of inquiry with a bunch of that stuff will earn you a file 13 right off
Wy

I can't believe someone wanted you to help them get a "rekerd deel". You'd have an easier time getting them to the finals of a National Spelling B.

People can be difficult it they have a handler. They should know they're difficult and look for one. Look at our friend Puffer on the other post. He took his beef right to the wall without ever considering how he was looking in all of it. Yet, Brian says his music is decent. Who lost? If you know you're like that, then WHILE YOU ARE SEEKING HELP you would benefit by getting a handler, a representative, a keeper.

Whoops, my wife says I'm getting too excited here at the computer, I'm to calm down and practice my scales.

All the Best,
Mike

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

Artists are often gifted at expressing themselves, engaging an audience or giving interviews. Unfortunately, artists are often very poor communicators. They tend to under achieve in school, make poor financial decisions and generally struggle to fit into any kind of institution or comply with authority. Between us, I think we're all kind of proud of this as it makes us who we are.

However, pissing people off, anyone at all, is generally a bad idea as we are all emotional creatures that get defensive instinctively.

An element of diplomacy, not ass kissing, is required by all of us in order to build relationships, business or social. Why should artists be any different? I agree with Brian, there is nothing worse than an artist sending you a rude email complaining about his or her lack of attention from you.

David Ogilvy, the advertising mogul, said that to get the most out of him (and his firm) you must be a good client. He was not referring to the person who pays the most but the person who is open to criticism, embraces change and does as instructed for everybody's best interest.

Similarly, I presume that it's not the best musicians that have the strongest team behind them and working on their behalf but rather the musicians who have invested simple human interaction skills to develop mutual relationships, loyalty and trust, therefore achieving success and longevity by working with the best in the industry.

If you keep getting rejected by the same person, see if you can take them out for a beer. If you can't reach this person, contact his or her assistant and build on that relationship. If that doesn't work, start with the security guard at the door and work yourself up. This does and will work for anyone as long as it is sincere. No one will scrutinise you for having a political agenda - we all do.

I seem to have gone off a bit – sorry – I hope this is still relevant to the original thread. Woops!

Lior
www.wearelistening.org

You can kiss your career goodbye if:

1) You think "presskit" is one word, and you post questions on a message board like "Let's say you the white stripes???"

2) You get busted for drugs at Heathrow, or you think a good idea for a recording session would be in a hotel room bed

3) You start doing soft drink commercials and your hair catches on fire

4) The only gig you can get is writing a jingle for McDonalds

5) Word gets out that you married your 13 year old cousin

6) The President of the United States refuses to let you play on the Mall in Washington during the 4th of July celebration

7) You get booed off the stage at a folk concert for using an electric guitar

8) You get sued by your former record company for doing music that sounds too much like yourself.

Well, OK, maybe only number 1 above, and not all those other things.

I hear you can make up to twenty grand doing those McDonald's Jingles.

Stu makes a good point. Doing stupid things won't kill your career. But a long pattern of pissing people off is going to make it all a lot tougher and if you're on the fence as to whether you're good enough to get a deal or help or an opportunity, those types of things may be the tipping point. And if you do still make it on some level you may find the view up there less enjoyable without any friends to share it with.

Brian

That is a good point, but those things, except for number one, all happened after those folks had become rich, famous and proven commodities. My admonishment is for the beginning artist for whom showing up drunk and vomiting on the clubowners shoes are generally no-no's. If Michael Jackson vomited on my shoes, I'd sell them on ebay.

Mike

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

You can kiss your career goodbye if.....

-You wait for fate to intervene with some divine gift of a record contract, that one "moment" when the "right" person hears you...instead of going out and busting your ass for it....
-You become the slave to a 9-5 job and security in benefits and a 401k: do this and there is no time for your passion in life!

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Tread carefully into the affairs of dragons.....for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

Here's another for Stu: Get fired from the band that made you famous, stay addicted to drugs and booze for 25 years, earn a reputation for biting heads off live animals,desecrate a national landmark,raise 2 undisciplined,obnoxious kids,and kill enough brain cells that you are a pathetic,unintelligable,babbling idiot,and let cameras follow you around for three years to document it for the amusement of millions of viewers!

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bc

[This message has been edited by bcushing (edited 12-20-2005).]

Testing my username. Sorry

Sherelle

That's okay Sherelle,

This post is always good food for thought.

Brian

So Brian, what's up with my "rekerd deel" You got it yet fo me.

Going back to my "Ozzy" post--an update: Proceed to Rock n Roll Hall of Fame. {Sabbath goes in this year!}

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bc

[This message has been edited by bcushing (edited 12-20-2005).]

I'll add this one.

Failing to do your own homework, then blaming others for the bad deal(s) you've signed based on your lack of research.

And I'll second the concept of not helping others. If you can't help someone else, why should anyone help you.

Jody

p.s. - I don't think I've ever been difficult, but I have been thick headed about outside opinions. Glad I've started working that one out of my existence.

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Music That Makes Your Soul Happy!
www.jodywhitesides.com

You mean I've been wasting all my time proofing, reproofing, re-reproofing...ad infinitum...ad nauseam?

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Jeannie

...If you Don't Remember NAMES..& You Don't Stay In-Touch.

Guilty of this Myself...

But..some of those Kind Folks you met 3-5 Years Ago are NOW much Higher on the Peckin' Order..& you shoulda Said "Howdy" during the Meantime~

JMO,
Stan

You play and play and play in your bedroom at your momma's house, never gig, and wonder why someone doesn't come and knock on the door and ask you to sign a record deal...

You think everything and everybody is stupid or just "don't get it"...

You don't want to gig until it's the right gig, that is, a big festival with over 10,000 people watching - know anyone who had that for a first gig?

The axiom I seem to hear being expressed here is that if you're going to be a s***head, become famous first--don't try to be a s***head first, 'cause you may have trouble becoming famous later.

Joe
www.soundclick.com/bands/7/joewrabek_music.htm

True in all walks of life. Notable exceptions would be St. Paul and Judge Mathis.



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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

Another sure fire way to kill your career...

Say that you're better than the Beatles.

Jody

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Music That Makes Your Soul Happy!
www.jodywhitesides.com

Badmouth the President on a London Stage and all your fans are strong suporters of the President.