JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Industry Message Forum does the age of an artist matter to you?

I was just reading the editorial in Performing Songwriter, and she says it's time the industry woke up, that people want real artistry, and they aren't interested in perfection... but rather 'imperfection, purity & originality'.

Here's what Lydia Hutchinson says...
"And when someone tells you that without youth and supermodel looks you don't have a shot in the music world, then let them have that reality, but understand it doesn't have to be yours. Personally I happen to find wisdom and comfort in age. I love the lines in people's faces and the scars on their bodies -- that's where life's experiences are. I find character in crooked noses, receding hairlines, a few extra pounds, and the results of gravity. Because that's just life. And I, myself, am smack dab in the middle of it. Anything less, I just can't relate to.... But the powers that be just can't seem to figure out what a huge audience we are. So the unreal reality will continue to be spun..."

I was very pleased to see this editorial, having been told recently by someone that I might as well forget promoting myself as an artist. Whenever I get that message, I'll remember her words.

Hummin'bird
http://www.soundclick.com/vikkiflawith

[This message has been edited by Hummingbird (edited 08-18-2005).]

Dear Vikki:
Unfortunately this is not a new phenomenon, especially in the rock/pop world. It is much newer in country music, and not as rigid perhaps, but it's there.

Country radio/video is making the same mistakes that rock radio did in the early 90s. Ignoring their heritage in favor of young and hot. As a result we now have "Classic Rock", "Modern Rock" and "Today's Soft Rock" as separate radio formats. In country it is happening as well with "New Country", "Americana", and "Classic Country". That being said, Buddy Jewell won Nashville Star in his 40s.

There is room for all of us, especially now that cable music and satellite radio are a reality.

Don't give up, but don't expect video airplay on CMT either. I too have a "face for radio", so I understand.



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Terry

Don't worry too much about life. You'll never get out alive.


http://www.soundclick.com/bands/7/terryfernihoughmusic.htm

A person's age or looks should have nothing to do with anything when it comes down to whether they are talented or not. I think it's awfully sad the way the music business is....and yes, it has now moved into country...I was in Nashville a few times this summer and was talking to someone in the business (not about anything to do with me...) we were just talking in general, and he said that in country right now, as far as females, the first thing they look at is HOW you LOOK...second, if you can sing somewhat, and third, if you are capable of writing. Just makes me sick..JMHO. I think that is why we need to support independent artists, singer/songwriters, etc....and yes, satellite radio!

[This message has been edited by qbaum (edited 08-18-2005).]

[This message has been edited by qbaum (edited 08-18-2005).]

Vikki, Terry and Shelia,

This is one the of the most refreshing threads I have seen in a long time;
the music business operates in a way that is not always favorable to those who don't meet today's strict standards of beauty and youth.

I think it is sad that many artists believe they have failed if they don't peak by age 25.

I think it is also interesting to note that MANY people make their mark when they are older than 22.

For instance:

--At the age of 28, F. Scott Fitzgerald published "The Great Gatsby."

--At the age of 30, Agatha Christie introduces her great Belgian sleuth, Hercule Poirot, in T"he Mysterious Affiar at Styles."

--At the age of 34, Martin Luther King, Jr. delivers his "I Have A Dream" speech.

--At the age of 37, Amy Tan publishes "The Joy Luck Club."

--At the age of 38, Mother Teresa founded the Missionaries of Charity Sisterhood.

--At the age of 40, Margaret Rudkin starts baking Pepperidge Farm cookies..the rest in history.

--At the age of 40, John Glenn orbits the earth.

--At the age of 41, William Shakespeare wrote King Lear.

-- At the age of 42, Rosa Parks refuses to
give up her seat on a bus in Birmingham, Alabama.

--At the age of 44, Marie Curie winds the NObel Prize in Chemistry.

--At the age of 46, Mary Robinson is elected the President of Ireland.

--At the age of 47, Antonio Vivladi composes "The Four Seasons."

--At the age of 48, Mark Twain publishes "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn."

--At the age of 50, Henrik Ibson writes "A Doll's House."

--At the age of 52, Ludwig van Beethoven composes his Ninth Symphony.

--At the age of 54, Janet Reno becomes the first womans to hold the position of U.S. Attorney General.

--At the age of 54, Dr. Suess publishes "The Grinch Who Stole Christmas."

--In their 50's ( can't divulge these ages ), JPF members Bobbie Gallup and her husband, Corky (dawg) Bernard founded the Pineyfest Songwriters' Festival.

--At the age of 65, Winston Churchill becomes Britian's Prime Minister.

--At the age of 72, Michelangelo designs the
dome of St. Peter's Basilica in Rome.

--At the age of 74, Claude MOnet atrts painting the "water lilies' series of paintings.

--At age of 87, Mary Baker Eddy founds The Christian Science Monitor.

.............to name a few!

Emily
emilysanders.net

[This message has been edited by Emily Sanders (edited 08-18-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Emily Sanders (edited 08-18-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Emily Sanders (edited 08-18-2005).]

I find that as I get older it's harder and harder to shake the feeling that I'm losing cultural relevance.

I mean, let's face it: hot sexy people are easy to mass market. The brain can't help it, it's hardwired to respond positively to sex appeal. Heck, I freely admit that when I think an artist is even marginally cute, I skip "Music" and go straight to the "Photos" section of her website. Shallow? Maybe. But even unsigned indie artists know the value of an attractive photo.

The thing is, building a music career on sex appeal is a lot like building a relationship on sex. It only lasts a little while and eventually you want something substantial and meaningful, and it's not there.

So I say, if you've got it, flaunt it. Use your God-given gifts! But fer cryin' out loud, write some good songs and have some integrity, unless you really want people to forget you in five years.

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Scott Andrew
Lo-fi acoustic pop superhero!
http://www.scottandrew.com/music

I am currently producing a band in the modern pop rock genre. Ya know where everyone sounds the same like the Simple Plan, Good Charolette etc..
The band has gotten better but the playing, singing, timing, still needs lots of work. I played a rough for a friend who cringed slightly when he heard it. He said where do they expect to get with this?
I said I know they will get signed.. Why because they are 20. Besides they got the look, the attitude and no fear. They are now talking with 2 major labels.
I should be happy right? We will see.

This is why I aim at film and TV no age limit
or looks involved unless your music gives your age away. But even that is cool sometimes depending on the project. This is just how things go in this country
in many fields. Emily named great people who did great things, but none who broke into the music business as a star. Was Wille Nelson ever young?
Heavy Metal lets ya get away with it a little I've noticed you can be 38-40.

Songwriting also knows no age limit but more artists are getting to write there own songs. I posted a thread about it recently. I asked does this concern anyone?
I mentioned the 3 p's for songwriting today.
Main stream music is run by the 3 p's
The 3 p's for alot of young artist are Producers/Pro-Tools/ and Pitch Correction!
Just look good! I will fix all the timing, all the sounds, totally put your voice in tune and make it sound huge.

Does age of an artist matter to me? No not at all!
It matters 100% to the main stream music industry and entertainment in general. If it didn't matter to the record labels that much then it wouldn't matter to public that much (kids especially) They will buy anything you put in front of them.

Remember You are artists and will continue being one as long as you like. No one can ever take that away from you.

Peace
Sub
http://tinyurl.com/buld7


[This message has been edited by substudio (edited 08-20-2005).]

God give us all gifts,the gift of beauty is one,sometimes that same person may have the gift to sing,great.Many time the gift to sing does not come in a beautiful body,does anyone have the right to deny that gift just because it is not wrapped in an eye appealing, sex provoking package.NO.Music should be ear pleasing not eye pleasing.We don't demand that songwriters be young and beautiful/handsome,but we want our singers to be so.If you have the looks(sex appeal) they are willing to lower the talent requirements,they are selling sex,not music.

But,we,the buying public are to blame because we fall for it.We open our eyes to the beauty and close our ears to the lack of talent and open our wallets to buy.I think true beauty comes from within not from without.Many times exteriour beauty is all you get(not always).Those that are beautiful and "know" it are often shallow in the beautiful personality department,while those that are beautiful and don't "know" it, can and often do have a personality to match their looks.

When I was looking for a wife,personality was more important than looks,looks will fade over time,personality usually last a life time.When a good looking woman with a ugly personality starts to lose their looks, their personality tends to get even uglier.

Beauty is a gift,singing,writing and music playing are also gifts,let each one stand on their own,lets not blur the issue and bring it all down to a common denominator,sex appeal.

Everett

[This message has been edited by ECA333 (edited 08-20-2005).]

I must be a part of a different music world. But that might be a good thing.

If you are only looking for 'a shot' at the top of the 'popular' music world (in any genre) then looks will give you a leg up.
If you dont have looks then money is the next best thing.
If you dont have those then being radicaly different could work (think early Bowie, Alice Cooper, Elton John in pink feathers, Willie Nelson and the outlaws )

If all else fails you can fall back on the actual music you create.
Perfection is for videos. 'purity & originality' is for music.

I listen to and buy all sorts of old non-supermodels music.

I checked a bunch of the artists I bought when I was younger, and let me tell you, not a pretty face in the group but they could play.

I think promoting yourself as an "artist" is what you SHOULD do.

Doug
http://cdbaby.com/all/niffgurpo

I was at a concert tonight (Saturday, that is) by a couple of guys who have written and performed together for over thirty years. The two youngsters who were on the stage were the drummer, who has just recently joined the principles, and the opening act. Both of them were mid-40's. The drummer has grey hair. And nobody on the stage was exactly pretty. It wasn't quite Fred Eaglesmith and his band ugly, but none will pass for Britney Spears or a boy band pretty, either. But they surely can write, sing, play, and generally entertain.

hey, thanks guys. I'll let you know when my CD ready -- and you do the same, okay?


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Vikki Flawith, Singer/Songwriter & Voice Teacher

This bird sings at:
http://www.soundclick.com/vikkiflawith
http://www.mixposure.com/victoriaflawith
http://www.broadjam.com/artists/artistindex.asp?artistID=15275

Blog: http://theshysinger-songwriter.blogspot.com/

Does the age of an artist matter to you?

Yes. If the artist is under 40, I do not listen.

To me, age doesn't matter in one case and sometimes it does matter in others. I think the level of maturity of ones music regardless of how old someone is, really makes a difference if I want to listen to it. My music has matured all these years and still is changing.

After years of being out of music, about 12...and the last 3 years I have returned to my musical passions. I never thought I'd be back doing this, let alone recording, producing and doing all the marketing myself.

If I had done my music when I was younger.. I don't think I would have handled any of the things I have experienced so far, very well.

I may not be a prolific writer as some of the artists in my genre ( which is New Age)..but I will have no regrets. I can get older now and say... hey.. I gave this my best shot and I did it. I may not get famous or make any money on my music..but at least I got out there and did something about it. I may not look like a million bucks.. but I am having fun doing what I always dreamed of doing.

K

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koritunes
soundclickkori

[This message has been edited by KoriL (edited 08-21-2005).]

Well, a lot of my favorite artists aren't even 35 years old.

Hank Williams, Robert Johnson, Patsy Cline, Duane Allman, Clarence White, Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix, Gram Parsons, and Buddy Holly, just to name a few.

Mike

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

hey, I think the point is that talent & artistry do not belong exclusively to any one age group... but that the discrimination against *new* artists beginning a career when they are +40 is not only unfair, but may exclude what could be some beautiful and/or meaningful voices from being heard. We all think it's marvelous when a 14 year old stands up and shows incredible talent... why can't we feel that if a 60 year old does the same? Are we so afraid of getting old that we deny older folks a place in the music industry? Would we rather that they were invisible so we don't have to face the fact we're heading that way too? Do we think that someone who's 80 has nothing to say about life & love?

I have to say one of my all-time favourite videos is Johnny Cash's 'Hurt'. It's beautiful, packs such an impact - and they don't hide his age at all. To me that's proof that a number doesn't define artistry.

H
http://www.soundclick.com/vikkiflawith

[This message has been edited by Hummingbird (edited 08-21-2005).]

Grandma Moses sold her first paintings when she was nearing 80. How's that for a late start to a career?

I think Scott summed it up brilliantly. It's really no more complicated than that.

You can be average to above average and have an outside shot at mainstream success if you are amazingly attractive. But if you're not attractive or young or desirable in some offbeat way, you better be amazingly talented to have an outside shot at maintream success.

I always find it funny that people blame labels and media for promoting youth only. If they could possibly attract mass interest by promoting something else, they'd do it. They're all success whores in that they go wherever the money is. If society suddenly had a taste for geriatric looking and acting superstars, that's all we'd get fed the rest of our lives. Frankly, I think most labels and studios would rather deal with seasoned pro's but they know they aren't going to have their jobs long because the public isn't going to be interested. It's not their job to retrain the public into doing (and buying) what is best for them.. it's to give them what they want in the quickest, easiest and cheapest way possible to make a buck. If you want to be part of that system, you need to work within it. Or, you're always free to start your own label/company and bring what the masses don't want to buy to them and see if YOU can break the pattern. CD Baby, to some extent, did that for indie artists. But even with their significant success, they've sold less than 2 million albums for 100,000 artists, which is still less than the gigantic flop single album Mariah Carey came out with a few years ago that cost her label 100's of millions of dollars in losses. Think about that.

Brian

Vikki:

Yes, age matters. I'm more likely to be interested in somebody's material if the somebody appears to have been around the block a few times. Yes, there's some raw talent among the kids, and I know I'm missing out on some of it by ignoring them--but I don't think I'm missing out on a lot. I want to *learn* how to be better at what I do, and I've got this mindset that somebody who's the age of a potential grandkid may not have much to say that I can use.

The fixation among the Powers That Be for nubile young bodies, male and female, as vehicles for delivering pointless pap is something that always bothered me about "pop music." I liked that country music didn't do that--that country music seemed to have some respect for skill and experience, no matter what package it came in. And I'm sorry that Nashville has fallen into the same visual abyss as pop. Just means I don't listen to much commercial country music anymore, either. (I mean, if they don't have any respect for my age, why sould I have any respect for theirs?)

All that said, I recognize we have become a very visual society, and if I'm going to effectuate any decent well-poisoning of the Younger Generation, I'm going to have to approach them visually. (Oh, and I do perform live--and the fact that I'm gray and overweight and look like I've been rode hard and put away wet doesn't seem to bother the kids any more than it does the adults. And I can always tell 'em if they don't like what they see, they can close their eyes.)

Which prompted a Wild Idea, which I am determined to implement this fall, with my teenage daughter's help. We're going to produce a *music video* of "I'm Giving Mom a Dead Dog for Christmas." I'll still play and sing the song, but I won't appear on screen. Instead, my daughter and a couple of her friends will lip-sync it (with Santa hats and antlers on), doing Britney Spears-type choreography the while. (They've been practicing.) Should be appropriately tasteless and hilarious. The Biz wants nubile young bodies, they can have them. In the words of the immortal Colonel Klink, "Vee haff vayss."

Joe
www.soundclick.com/bands/7/joewrabek_music.htm

Do not agree! Who feeds society all this TV/ Music/ Video Etc.. They are the brain washers just now worst than ever before. I totally blame them. How come there jobs weren't threatned when they signed and promoted Neil Young, Joni Mitchell, Joe Cocker, Bob Dylan and a host of others like them, ya know the real good lookers. Mick ugly from day one..

Most People will buy whatever you show them especially young people. Again "Pet Rocks" folks come on think for a second. We can sell anything with media
Horrible looking cars and Suv's.Guys hitting 80 home runs because of steriods they allow that and all the sports hype. Give Lamar Brown a 100 million dollar check for a Nike commerical before he ever scores one point in the NBA. People believe it's great because media says so. The public is always led.. Crap fast food which taste good anyway.. even war is sold to you.

They are the brain washers we are the brain washed.

They show Tony Bennet a few times in hip situations and alot of kids know him now and think he's cool.
And he sings Ozzy's theme song etc..

If you show em enough times they will start to see.

Balance like yesterday that's all. Promote Donnie Osmond and Pink Floyd to.

Peace
Sub

[This message has been edited by substudio (edited 08-22-2005).]

"But if you're not attractive or young or desirable in some offbeat way, you better be amazingly talented to have an outside shot at maintream success"

The folks you mention WERE attracitve in an offbeat way. The Stones especially were risky.. exciting.. sexy bad boys. There's plenty of ugly rockers out there still.

You may WANT your version to be true. But until someone is able to actually make people buy the stuff they don't want (i.e. old artists) beyond an occassional Novelty (i.e. once in a while it's "hip" to like someone old like Tony Bennet, but try to launch a NEW Tony Bennet without all the history...) older person, you're desire isn't reality.

I know folks at labels who like artists outside the marketing norm.. but there's nothing they can do with them. Quality has NEVER been the deciding factor in what the mainstream wants. If it was, you wouldn't see quality shows (yes, some TV shows are actually very well done) cancelled because no one will watch. You would find great artists that labels TRY to launch because they believe in them passed over by the mainstream for Britney and whichever Simpson girl is hot this week.

If you think the public wants to buy quality over youth and sex, why not prove your theory and launch a label and show everyone else how it's done? You won't because you know it would be futile. Corporations look for the easiest product to market that will give them the highest return on their investment. Their stockholders demand it. The paying public demands it. There ARE plenty of other artists out there who are "quality" and don't fit that mold. You'll find thousands of worthy artists on CD Baby. But they don't sell. The public can get it and find it if they look, but they choose not to. Don't blame the messengers.

Brian

Amen to what Brian's saying! Don't blame the corporations for the taste (or lack thereof) of the American public. You can't sell anything for very long unless people want it. I've been in sales and marketing and marketing consulting. This is reality. While it's convenient and attractive to blame the corporations and capitalism for everything bad in the world or in America, they have a lot less control than you think. Often, they have a lot less control than they start to think, too. This is one reason why companies go bankrupt.

Three-quarters of marketing is getting the word out. Yes, the big corps do that successfully. But look how many times the big corps have missed up-and-coming phenomena. They jump on the bandwagon late because it's already happening by word of mouth. Look at every new musical movement of the last 100 years. What percentage of them were "manufactured" by some corporation? Not very many, and that's the truth. They sell what they can, not what they like.

... to me the epitomy of this trend is picking out 4 beautiful boys --- and then making them into a band and marketing them.

Personally, a major label would never look at me no matter how young I was. I don't fit the marketing box. But my question wasn't really about whether or not a major label would promote a new artist over 45. I already know that they won't.

I just wanted to know, from your perspective, whether you think about how old an artist is before you listen to their music or buy their CD. Because I don't. Their age, marital status, race, ability/disability, etc. doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is that their music moves me in some way.

And yes, I have my own label and will be promoting my music myself. I don't expect that I will make a huge amount of money, but I perform & I know I'll sell CDs. I live & breathe music -- and already make enough to live on doin' what I love.

interesting thread!!!

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Vikki Flawith, Singer/Songwriter & Voice Teacher

This bird sings at:
http://www.soundclick.com/vikkiflawith
http://www.mixposure.com/victoriaflawith
http://www.broadjam.com/artists/artistindex.asp?artistID=15275

Blog: http://theshysinger-songwriter.blogspot.com/

Hi,

I agreed that the age matters to the industry in my first post. I also mention that no one breaks in older, as per my Wille Nelson joke.
And it's easy to say lets see if me or some other nobody can change it all. Start a label or Company etc..etc.. Hello! Anyone who wants to lend me a couple of billion dollars to try it. Don't I need the money power to advertise what I want to sell you. Just like they do every day, everywhere.

I think might point was missed but that's cool..

peace out
sub

Vikki,
Did you go to Jamboree On The Mountain back in May? I met a couple of Canadian Artists there. Maybe you know them Lana-Gail and Lorne Nelson. The Record Label is MIDNIGHT STAR www.ranmor.net.

hmmm... my point is, concernin myself, I make my livin using my musical skills. That's what I want, and that's what I have. And, people enjoy listenin to me, and they buy my music. So why would I need a marketin fund or a big label? They'd just foul me up anyway. I'm happy doing what I'm doin, indie-like. I don't need a mansion or a Rolls. I'm happy in my little character house walkin to the bus stop, writin' music til 3 am.

concerning this thread... just wanted to start a discussion on the topic and see where we ended up... been excitin readin!


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Vikki Flawith, Singer/Songwriter & Voice Teacher

This bird sings at:
http://www.soundclick.com/vikkiflawith
http://www.mixposure.com/victoriaflawith
http://www.broadjam.com/artists/artistindex.asp?artistID=15275

Blog: http://theshysinger-songwriter.blogspot.com/

Hey Ray, no I didn't make it to Jamboree or Merritt this year. How was the event?

52 and proud of my years!

I am currently in contact with an Indie label in the Philly area. They know of my age, and I am still under consideration. How much, I really don't know. But they didn't laugh at me and are listening closer. I am to call them back Thurdays to see if they can make it out where I'm playing Friday night. They have young acts, sure. But they also have artists older than me. The producer of this label was with major labels, (Island and Polygram), and now maybe just wants to do things his way a little more, and sees age as something worth hearing and presenting if he likes the person/songs. I guess it's like how Brian told his judges in the awards of his, in so many words: Judge the song on how or if "the song moves you".

I know from my few sales through the past 6 years, that most of the buyers have been under 25! A lot around the mid to late teens. I was surprised to get letters from 15 and 16 year olds who knew of my age. One girl actually said that our songs helped her through a very bad time and she found reason to go on. She is from Endland. I have that letter on my desk at all times. We have written back and forth,,,no age issue there. Just two people who bonded through music.

Yeah, I'm older now. But just try to beat me in anything! I think Rock n Roll got into the blood in people around my age and a little older and seems to be a constant fountain of youth potion. I have as much energy now as I ever had, for all apects of life. I think kids can respect that more than ever, with the link of Rock n Roll as a bonding agent.

Business follows success/money, righ?. And it can take just one,,,,then all the labels would be trying to sign the same type artist. I did a coffee house recently where everybody was young, and most of the players were older. Stayed a full house the whole night! I got to talk with a lot of the kids, and they just wanted to hear about all of our histories, and loved that we come from the time of classic rock/pop. We're not that foreign to them musically, like how it was in the fifties and sixties between generations. They can relate to our songs now.

John Daubert

Hey John, that sounds really cool! I wish you much success - let us know how you get on. Is there somewhere I can listen to your music and/or buy a CD?
cheers
Vikki

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Vikki Flawith, Singer/Songwriter & Voice Teacher

This bird sings at:
http://www.soundclick.com/vikkiflawith
http://www.mixposure.com/victoriaflawith
http://www.broadjam.com/artists/artistindex.asp?artistID=15275

Blog: http://theshysinger-songwriter.blogspot.com/

It strikes me that the ever-narrowing views on this subject of the major labels have coincided with a significant drop in sales (I don’t believe its all down to file sharing).

Call me an optimist but I fell that in an their efforts to survive and flourish over the coming years that the majors will need to take a fresh look at their approach in many different areas and this will be one of them.


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Band wanted for FREE MUSIC VIDEO Click Here!

I would say my piece, but quite frankly, Brian said everything I would have said.
9 times out of 10, the artist doesn't get to have a major say in what music goes on their album. Songwriters are asked to submit material to them, and based on the image and direction the label wants the artist to go in will determine what songs get picked.
So really, if you are willing to write mainstream hit singles, then you'll have mainstream success. Otherwise, the indie market is your road.

Vikki, et al.:

I really don't think it matters. I performed Sunday afternoon and evening at the Oregon State Fair, as part of their statewide talent contest (I'd already won first place at the Union County Fair). Of the 23 "adult" (over 16) entrants, the only one older'n me was a tap-dancing grandmother, aged 78. For the most part, I was older'n any 3 contestants combined.

Most were very personable, flashily dressed high school students with very good voices doing karaoke. I was the fat old guy in jeans and T-shirt with an acoustic guitar and not much of a voice.

I nonetheless got second place. I can't attribute it to anything else than the audience (and the judges, who were watching the audience) liked the song. What I tell people is if it bothers you to look, don't look. If it bothers you to listen, don't listen. If you're both not looking and not listening, you should consider not being there in the first place.

I think that what the listening public wants is interesting stuff played live by real people, and they don't care how old they are, or how pretty. The only people who seem to care are the people producing records. And I plan to ignore them as long as they ignore me (which I'm sure will be a long time).

I hope the whole experience was a lesson for the kids--and I do wonder if the State Fair will see more original material being performed on real instruments next year as a result. Might be worth the price of a ticket to find out...

Joe
www.soundclick.com/bands/7/joewrabek_music.htm

"I think that what the listening public wants is interesting stuff played live by real people, and they don't care how old they are, or how pretty."

Joe,

This simply isn't reality. Reality is that people actually don't want to see ANYBODY perform live music on the levels they used to. Sure, the big mega concerts have lost attendants (though the Britney's of the world still sell out as do acts like the Stones) but once you get away from mega stars of any age or background, the numbers are dismal all the way down to the guy playing blues in the local pub. Getting numbers of people off their ass night after night to go out to do anything is a thing of the past. People also aren't going to movies or plays or opera or high school sports etc.. in the numbers they used to. Pro Sports (Football and NASCAR in particular) still draw people and so do teeny bopper and mega star nostalgia acts in concert and that's about it.

The industry isn't really developing many new artists with staying power. Hell, even Britney has been at this for over a decade. What artists who launched in the 80's and 90's are still large draws? Not many. U2 is one of the few "Stones-like" draws from the 80's. Revivals of the Back Street Boys seem to have some fans from the 90's. But it's fairly slim pickens overall. And it's not all just the major labels fault. Smaller acts (i.e. bands) have very few options to survive off of touring regional shows like they used to. It's hard even for folks to pile in a van and hit the road as a group and find enough gigs for food and gas money.

So if you're running a corporation whose #1 responsibility is the bottom line of their company and the success of their employees and stockholders, you have to take a shot with the best bet you can find which is going to be youth and appearance and fashion first and foremost. It's the same with movies. The people who still regularly go to movies are kids looking to get OUT of the house on a date so they make movies to appeal to them. Their parents are waiting for stuff to come out on cable or DVD.

And in general, everyone be real. Aside from the decrease in audience numbers, the industry has ALWAYS promoted tenny boppers. The Beatles were. So were the Stones when they started. I saw Hermans Hermits at the State Fair a few weeks ago and that guy STILL looks like a teeny bopper and his songs are more mindless than anything Britney does. "Henry the 8th I am?" indeed.

Brian

Going all the way back to Vikki's first post:

If you want to be an artist and pursue your passion, I agree with Lydia. But what she's suggesting doesn't result in Britney Spears type fame. If you want that "Rock Star/Pop Star" mythology to come true for you, age is a barrier. If you simply want to make great music at any age, nothing is ever stopping you and frankly, if it's in your blood, nothing WILL stop you. Audience size and fame are rewarding ego strokes, but they aren't going to stop art (i.e. music in this case) from being created by those with the passion to do it. The two things have nothing really to do with each other. The most popular "anything" is rarely the best examples of that thing. Food, Movies, Music, Books even art that makes it to the top of the fame heap rarely is the best quality.. but rather the most universally palatable. Big difference. The best restaurant in your town won't surpass the fame and sales of McDonalds.. so why think the best music in your town will outsell Britney and Kanye West?

Brian

Brian

good point Brian.

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Vikki Flawith, Singer/Songwriter & Voice Teacher

This bird sings at:
http://www.soundclick.com/vikkiflawith
http://www.mixposure.com/victoriaflawith
http://www.broadjam.com/artists/artistindex.asp?artistID=15275

Blog: http://theshysinger-songwriter.blogspot.com/

As far as the media pushing youth and eye candy over experience and substance, the old saying rings true--"the masses are asses" That said,I'm 42 and play out 6 nights a week, and 80% of my crowd is under 25. Fight the power! www.bobcushing.com

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bc

Ought to throw in a final word here. Brian (et al.), I realize I'm not Britney Spears material, and am never going to make it in the "eye candy" sector of the music business because I'm not Britney Spears material. And I'm okay with that. (It's not like I could do anything about it if I wanted to.)

I also realize that with what I write, and how I perform it, I'm looking at a niche market. I am also okay with that. I continue to be curious how big that niche might be, so I continue to push its limits.

My point, I guess, is that the membership of whatever niche market it is that goes to hear live people perform does not appear to care that it's an old fat guy on stage. Any record &c. company that says different is unaware or attempting to force people into their own prejudices.

Remember, I said I had no idea how big that niche is; I'm trying to find that out. It may be too small for anybody but me to bother about. And like I said, I'm okay with that. I'm just happy to know there's *something*.

Joe
www.soundclick.com/bands/7/joewrabek_music.htm

I completely agree that there has always been a tendency in the industry towards the “teeny bop” market but there has been an ever-growing focus on that factor over the last few years. IMHO it seems to be that it is one of the main reasons why more acts with greater longevity have not been produced.

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Band wanted for FREE MUSIC VIDEO Click Here!

the age of the artist doesn't matter, but the age of the writer/composer does.
r.

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"he that tooteth not his own
horn, the same shall not be
tooted!"

Last September ('04), I auditioned for the live audition at the Bluebird Cafe. I was 61, and, I'm proud to say, most of the people there that day (and there were over 100) were in my age range. And, they were pretty damned good. Oh, by the way, I passed the audition and have sung there two times and will go back in January for the third. That restored my faith in my writing.
John

way to go John!!! kudos to you!!!

Thanks, Hummingbird. I'm sorry it took so long to respond, but I've been out of town. I attended a songwriting workshop presented by Steve Seskin. Let me recommend this man and his workshops if ever you have the chance to attend one. He's really good.
When, after retiring, I decided to give serious attention to my writing, I asked on the internet if people thought I was too "old" to be starting my second career as a songwriter. The overwhelming response was that one is never too old to start. That was enough fuel to my creative fire going.
Thanks,
John

None of us grow younger,only older if we live.What seemed old when we were young,now doesn't seem that old now that we've reached that age.Funny isn't it.We give too much credence to youth,we should give more respect to age and the wisdom that comes with it.

Everett

You're exactly right, Everett. Respect and wisdom...these are the two operative words. I had the utmost respect and love for my maternal grandmother. She did not finish high school, no college, no learning except from life. She was 89 1/2 years old when she died, and had more wisdom in her little finger than I did with a high school diploma, a BS, and an MS. Life, when you come right down to it, IS the only teacher. I think I got my love for writing from her and her romantic ideas. As the cliche goes: Life, like wine and cheese, only gets better with time.
John

John, I've been to your web-site, and checked out your tunes,and I hope to god I'm as cool as you in 20 years!!

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bc

Hi, Good Day to everyone,

I saw a very interesting topic here, that's why I would like you to check my voice:
http://bandmix.com/profile44251.html
Have a very happy day today!
Victoria

Hello, I promote a different style of music, but I think it is really good for my comps. to get bands of all ages as long as the material is good. Age will sometime define the content of the songs but that is apart of the great growing experience of an artist. Keep up the hard work..
Mike @ 8-Piece

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WWW.8PieceRecords.com

Hey, BC. I appreciate the nice comments. I gave 110 per cent to my first career, teaching, and then when I retired, I decided to embark on my second career of songwriting. It is my passion, now, and I'm so thankful to have the time to do it.
Thanks,


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J

I don't think it matters much to the true music fan. Music fans will follow the talent.
Media fans are another thing, they follow whatever the advertisers tell them to follow..

Personally I am glad that the days of Arena rock and ball stadium concertsare on the down swing.
I would much rather see someone live in a smaller venue, theatre, etc...
A top notch show, with great sound ..
If I like someone I will go and see them, if I can, they can be twenty, they can be eighty, like BB King, who by the way I saw when he had just turned seventy. I bet he's even better now.

Best, L.

Ok, I've been watching this thread off and on for awhile and really soul searching to determine just what my thoughts are. Honestly, I could care less myself as to the looks of an artist. I play alot of shows with my group and have for many years. We probably play at least 1 time a week during a slow period. None of us are lookers..the average age is 40, with myself being the youngest. I don't think there is one person alive that walks into a show to view a band and NOT want to enjoy what they see. Whether we want to admit it or not the human psychi evaluates whether we want to learn more about something or someone based solely on how pleasurable or intriguing a first impression is. And that would include looks. HOWEVER, if you knock someones socks off, and throw that first impression to the backs of their minds you have won yourself probably the best friend, or FAN you could ever have. Looks definately keep attention, but you give em something that much more genuine and spectacular like your talent and your passion. You're bound to win yourself into the hearts and minds of those involved. Personally I'd much rather have a club full of people raising cane and enjoying themselves thoroughly, then 10 million buying my cd only to leave it stashed in a cd case to only be pulled out once or twice a year. Its the memories that are built that mean more to me. Maybe I'm just odd

Brina

Quote from Brina:
"I don't think there is one person alive that walks into a show to view a band and NOT want to enjoy what they see."


I, for one, AM that one person who can walk into a "show" meaning music show, concert, whatever, and will be there for my listening pleasure only and walk away happy if the talent was there. I'm not saying I wouldn't "notice?" if a person was nice-looking or not, but I really could care less, and their "looks" are not what is going to keep me there or not. I do want to "enjoy" what I went there for...and at a musical event, I am not there for a fashion show or a beauty pageant or a Male Model Review show.

My point with that was that if you put on a great show....what they are seeing isn't necessarily your looks. If you show them that what you're giving them is a part of you..and you give it everything you got. They are going to notice and be pleased with what they see....someone busting their *ss to perform for them. That was my point.

[This message has been edited by Brina (edited 10-20-2005).]