JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum The Chick "Choke"...article by Steve Warren

Bobbie,
Thankfully, we agree more than we disagree.

My extrapolation (such a fun word to use, isn't it?) or inference or estimatation from extending or projecting the known information we have been presented with goes something like this:

A=Natalie is an American & has the right in this country to speak her mind. B=Americans might be free to speak their mind in another country but probably shouldn't make assumptions about the hosting country's rules. C=Natalie was in another country and made an assumption. Luckily, she only got a bunch of country music fans mad at her.

As far as the stoning issue. Iran just recently suspended stoning as a form of justice (for relatively trivial matters like adultry in the opinion of most other countries). There are still countries such as Nigeria which still find it to be a necessary form of punishment.

Now, let's say we have a community of Iranians or Nigerians staying somewhere in this country on an extended visa. (Not that much of a stretch, considering the many immigrant communities and colleges with a high immigrant population.)

Based on making silly assumptions abroad, we could put together a quick logic equation that might go something like this:

A=Somebody within the immigrant population has an affair outside their marriage. B=Their law says the appropriate punishment must be a stoning so a stoning takes place in the middle of the college campus because they all assumed that it is legal and an accepted form of justice here. C=Americans have to accept that because Bobbie said we all follow our own country's rules when we visit other countries.

Bit of a stretch, I know. So is Bob Young's fantasy that Natalie would have good things to say about Bush as well as Natalie's expecting to be treated like everyone else but maintain her celebrity status.

According to Newton's third law, for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Natalie discovered the opposing reaction on this one.

While it is a sad and disgusting fact, Natalie wouldn't have necessarily had the right to speak out against her president as a citizen of many other countries. In fact, it might have been punishable by a stoning in several countries.

You said:
If A=Americans are free to express their opinions and B=Natalie is an American, then C=Natalie is free to express her opinions.

Without presenting another logic equation, my issue, and the issue most people who have a contention with this topic, is the issue of assuming our rights travel with us no matter where we travel internationally. Can we indeed assume we have the right to express our freedoms everywhere we go? With a big microphone in hand in another country? By that same assumption, can others assume that all of their cultural and political traditions (inclucing stonings) can carry across our border?

Trust me - there is a connection.

In any case, like I said above:
Thankfully, we agree more than we disagree.

Jeff

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JavaMusiK

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Hi Jeff...so nice to know what your name is after all this time!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JavaMusiK:
[B]Bobbie,
Thankfully, we agree more than we disagree.

My extrapolation (such a fun word to use, isn't it?) or inference or estimatation from extending or projecting the known information we have been presented with goes something like this:

A=Natalie is an American & has the right in this country to speak her mind. B=Americans might be free to speak their mind in another country but probably shouldn't make assumptions about the hosting country's rules. C=Natalie was in another country and made an assumption. Luckily, she only got a bunch of country music fans mad at her.

Ok..I am with you so far...but...my point is simple. Yes, Natalie was in another country...but the reaction had NOTHING to do with that country's laws, rules or anyone's assumptions. It had to do with the response of a few radio stations in THIS COUNTRY who deliberately tried to stir up a controversy IN ORDER to generate ratings. It doesn't have anything to do with anyone in the UK or anyone else's country. It was something cooked up here in the US to generate a very specific response.

There ARE no laws in the UK that say that Americans can't speak out against their own President over there. There are, however, laws HERE that make it illegal to stone anyone for any reason in this country..regardless of citizenship. That is a quite different scenario...and not one that I see as relevant to the discussion.

JMO, of course... I am not trying to convince you, however. Just hoping you will be gracious enough to allow me to hold an opposing opinion.

Hugs,
Bobbie

OK, this may not directly apply to this thread, but hey, this thread been going on forever and half of what I'm seeing is well, "whatever" so please just let me ramble on a bit. Hey, it's a free country right? Thank You. A couple of years ago my Sister brought over her 3rd or 4th (sorry, I lost track) hubby to dinner. At the time some American teenager was about to be caned as a punishment for vandalising cars in Indonisia or ? He spent a good 20-30 minutes talking about how could they dare to think of harming an American citizen for such a minor crime. Well, I had just finished a great book by a freind of mine about the sexual customs in some African tribes. My question for him was, since one of the tribe's customs was that the widowed women (60+)would take the 13-14 year old boys for a weekend to teach them how to be good husbands, something I'm sure we all should learn, and since we do have a number of refugees from Africa living here and because that was their custom and totally legal where they were from, then he should be totally fine with it. Well, for some reason he wasn't.
Well, thanks for letting me tell my story, and I did see the "Chicks" a couple of weeks ago when they were in Minneapolis and they were great.

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Steve West
Steve's Website
Steve's Myspace site

[This message has been edited by Steviewest (edited 08-28-2006).]

[This message has been edited by Steviewest (edited 08-28-2006).]

Java...I'm sure you're a real smart person...but sometimes you don't read so good.

My remark about Ms Merchant was in no way a "fantasy"
It was a hypothetical...
As such, it certainly is valid, and my time on this planet has proven it to be true.

Did yopu get that?

Bob Young

Sorry Bob,
I thought you were speaking of Ms. Maines of the Dixie Chicks.

Quote:
If she hadf said"George Bush is a great Texan" in England, you'd all say "There...that's a good American...exercising her right to stand up anywhere and say what she believes...Hooray for her!"

In my opinion, it is a fantasy to expect someone like Ms. Maines (&/or Ms. Merchant for that matter) to say something like "George Bush is a great Texan" anywhere. It's fantasty in that it just plain will never happen.

I don't see the problem with listing a hypothesis as a fantasy. Apparently, you do.

Did yopu get that?

Jeff

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I've been informed I don't read so good. Even so, I thought this point was addressed before by other members on this board. Uh-huh...

Those radio stations are a business first. Where do you think their reaction originated? Take a good close look at their clientele. A specific audience demographic the Chicks used to target.

Cooked up or not, these stations have every right to respond to Natalie (Maines') little overseas diatribe. If she has the right to run her mouth off beyond our borders, the radio stations have every right to stop playing her music here, if they and their clientele so choose.

If their listeners don't want to hear their music anymore, does it make any business sense to keep playing them? Let's not forget, those RATINGS you speak of translate into money - the ONLY thing those and all big stations are in business for.

If you want radio that is trying to do something else besides pay their bills, there is always NPR, college & independent community radio. Take a look at their P&L sometime for an eye opener.

The Chicks took a risk and are paying the price with their original fan base, apparently without remorse.

Oh well. Next???

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JavaMusiK

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OK, Java...so I got my Natalies mixed up...I meant the one from the Dixie Chix..

My point (which apparently I still have not made simple enough for you to grasp) is that if Ms Maines or ANYONE else went to England or ANYWHERE else and said that mr Bush was a great Texan or a great American or a great sushi chef..that you and your ilk would applaud that person for being a wonbderful American and exercising their right to say how they felt wherever they were.

By your statements you imply that it is wrong for an American to say something negative about the president on foreign soil...so...is it OK to say something positive about him on foreign soil and if so..what's the friggin' difference.

Now...if I need to make that plainer...I'm gonna have to think about it for a while.

Bob

whatever . . .

I have been following this thread with interest. Trying to understand what the disagreement is about. So far it has eluded me.

Bin Laden and his terrorist network brought down the WTC. That's fact. There were also other very serious terrorist attacks around the world perpetrated by these folks before and since September 11. The recently deceased Zaquari(SP) was part of it.
Prior to our invading Iraq Zaquari(SP) was operating openly and with Sadam's approval in Iraq. That's also fact. I still can't figure out why they thought they had to use the "WMD" excuse to invade. The fact that Zaquari and his 1000 or so followers had a terrorist training camp there would have been enough, in my opinion.
There is also the fact that Sadam had murdered somewhere near 300,000 people in his own country. Stopping that would have been enough of an excuse IMO.
Unfortunately, Zaquari(SP) was also successful in causing enough havoc in Iraq that they now are close to civil war. That's a fact.
And we need to get the hell out of there and let them settle it themselves. IMHO

I could go on and on about Iraq, but, what's the point.

But, all that aside.

The Chicks made the mistake of making a very unpopular statement at a time when this country was still hurting from September 11. Had they made the statement last week would the reaction be the same?
Maybe.

But, bottom line is. We have a right to express our opinion in this country regardless of the outcome. The fact that the radio stations quit playing their music is indisputable. Why they did so is up for debate. Whether the listening audience would have quit listening to their stations or continued to listen is also up for debate. Personally I think the stations would have done just fine either way.
Did the radio stations fuel the fire of protest that continued? I dunno. But I do know that attendance to the Chicks concerts is way down. That's a fact.
Recently, One of our local Country stations took a poll(for three weeks) of their listeners. They asked for a yes or no vote on playing the Chick's music. Result, they are not playing the Chick's music. So, did the stations choose to not play the music? Yes. But, the listeners voted NO. That's a fact

I find that sad. I like the Chicks music. Traveling Soldier gives me goose bumps. And, if they had kept their mouth shut in front of the whole world we would still be hearing them.
I don't care what Natalie thinks of George Bush. But to stand up in front of an audience and announce that she is ashamed of our President was a mistake. If she had stood up and said she did not agree with the War and offered some incite as to how we should proceed I think that would have been O.K. with the listeners.
I wonder if she was ashamed of MR. "Cheat on my wife and then lie about it on the witness stand after swearing before God to tell the truth". I don't think she mentioned that.
I know she was ashamed of a fellow actor for driving drunk. And she said so. That was good. Sends a good message to our younguns.
I woulda liked to see a statement about fidelity in marriage and lying after putting your hand on a bible and swearing to tell the truth. That also would have been a good message to the younguns.
Hmmmmp. priorities I guess.

Hmmmm! I think I am rambling.

So, back to my original thought. What is the disagreement about. She had the right to say it. It might have been a dumb thing to do, but she had the right.
Like Bob Young said. If she had stood up and said she loved George Bush NOTHING would have happened. Well, maybe not nothing. The Anti War folks might have bitched.
But we would still be hearing them on the radio.

This is America. We are a free people. We have the right to be DUMB and free. We have the right to be SENSIBLE and free. Natalie chose DUMB and free.
If you are a performer, and your fan base is a bunch of redneck conservatives, you don't stand up in front of them and spout liberal rhetoric. You'll get booed off the stage.

So, if you are going to have a debate about this I would suggest debating CHOICES.

I still wish she would just shut up and sing. Then this would all just go away.

Now I got to read this before I post to see if it makes sense.....
Hmmm! not sure...Oh! what the hell




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www.soundclick.com/billrobinson

www.dreamqueststudio.com

Bill
Live with a song in your heart

oh hummmmmm ..... OK ... maybe its NOT a question of whether of not someone has the right to go to another country & bash one's own leader .... maybe its more like WHYYYYYY would one do so during such a turbulent time; when there are those who HATE US and are looking for more reasons to further their own cause ... WHY add such fuel to the fire!?!?!? WHAT would possess someone to speak out at such a time ... other than simply for a little attention ... and she got it ... sure she CAN speak freely ... but WHYYYYYYYYYYY!?!??!?! How about a little common sense for all our sakes!!!
thats all I have to say
Joanne

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[*]The Best is Yet to Be,Joanne Lurgio-singer/songwriter www.joannelurgio.com

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[This message has been edited by Joanne (edited 08-29-2006).]

Sheesh Joanne
How about a little common sense for all our sakes!!!

You said what I was trying to say and did it in less than a hunnert words.
sorta.

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www.soundclick.com/billrobinson

www.dreamqueststudio.com

Bill
Live with a song in your heart

[This message has been edited by bill robinson (edited 08-29-2006).]

Thanks Bill But your's is so much more dramatic!
by the way..... How are ya
Joanne

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[*]The Best is Yet to Be,Joanne Lurgio-singer/songwriter www.joannelurgio.com

[*] Joanne's Gig Calendar - http://www.musi-cal.com/search?key=performers&value=Lurgio

[*] http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=100751
[*] www.cdbaby.com/cd/lurgio
[*] MySpace - www.myspace.com/joannelurgio
[*]www.cdbaby.com/group/justplainfolks

[This message has been edited by Joanne (edited 08-29-2006).]

Duce! Duce!

If we shut ourselves up on account of the terrorists, they win.

LOL Joanne

I'm a little winded from my speech but doing just fine.
I was at your my space page earlier listening to your songs.

Like your stuff.

------------------
www.soundclick.com/billrobinson

www.dreamqueststudio.com

Bill
Live with a song in your heart

We don't have to "shut ourselves up" ... how about saying something productive instead of .... destructive.... COMMON SENSE

Joanne



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[*]The Best is Yet to Be,Joanne Lurgio-singer/songwriter www.joannelurgio.com


[*] Joanne's Gig Calendar - http://www.musi-cal.com/search?key=performers&value=Lurgio

[*] http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=100751

[*] www.cdbaby.com/cd/lurgio

[*] MySpace - www.myspace.com/joannelurgio

[*]www.cdbaby.com/group/justplainfolks

get serious. she was doing a concert, not a guest spot for Romper Room.

besides,

maybe its a guy thing but it would probably take me all week to cook up a constructive way of expressing that sort of shame.

even if it wasn't about Bush. definitely not worth the effort. better off spitting it out.

[This message has been edited by BitWhys (edited 08-29-2006).]

"Be glad you only got The Poodle"?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bill robinson:


The Chicks made the mistake of making a very unpopular statement at a time...But to stand up in front of an audience and announce that she is ashamed of our President was a mistake...

I think it could be wrong to characterize her comment as a mistake. The comment has eroded the Chix popularity in some quarters and cost them some revenue for sure. Those who see every issue as dollars and cents, will certainly see this as a mistake. For most of us, who cannot fathom losing jillions of potential dollars, it could be characterized as a mistake. But Ms. Maines seems to be perfectly at peace with her remark and her refusal to back off from it. The Emancipation Proclamation cost Lincoln a lot politically. Newspapers carried cartoons that actually characterized him as an ape (imagine that happening today, if you think Natalie was harsh). But he did what he thought was right and was willing to take the heat. Now, before any of you excoriate me for making a ridiculous analogy, I am aware that I have done just that. I certainly don't mean to compare the gravity of the two situations, but the analogy just serves to demonstrate that the principle is the same. Sometimes what others think is a mistake, is not a mistake in your own eyes, no matter what the cost.

I wonder if she was ashamed of MR. "Cheat on my wife and then lie about it on the witness stand after swearing before God to tell the truth". I don't think she mentioned that.

This begs a good question: would country radio have quit playing the Chix, had Natalie said, in England or anywhere else, "If I was from Arkansas, I would be ashamed of Bill Clinton." Your mileage may vary, but I'd say the answer is a resounding "no."

Natalie chose DUMB and free.

I think you will know that I don't agree with this. If she has secret regets about having said it, then I guess she also thinks it was dumb. If she is proud of it, and she probably thinks of the extra revenue as "f--- you" money, then I doubt she thinks of it as dumb.

If you are a performer, and your fan base is a bunch of redneck conservatives, you don't stand up in front of them and spout liberal rhetoric. You'll get booed off the stage.

I think this is a very key point, and it is, of course, accurate. But I think it is debatable that the Chix characterize their fan base in such a way, and have even indicated publicly that they don't much care to have them as fans.

Now I got to read this before I post to see if it makes sense.....
Hmmm! not sure...Oh! what the hell.

Sure it makes sense. Well-reasoned and well-stated.

OK, don't say I didn't warn you but I got a million of these (just ask my family)and I can go on forever........believe me....
About 15 years ago or so, my lovey wife and I, with a very good freind, were all able to get cheap flights ($690 round trip) from Mpls. to Sydney. It was a long trip (24+ hours) with the layovers but we were still young then and we took it all in stride, LOL. When we got to OZ, it was great. Any JPF'er who doesn't live there or hasn't been there really needs to go. Am I right Graham, Wirdaz, Eliot, and the rest of you Aussies ;-)Anyway, the point to this post is that while we were camping out at a very nice Campground (you need to go there)I went over to the communal grill area only to find a group of 20 year old Aussies. Being freindly (I am, really) I asked them where they were from? A young man told me they were from Melbourne. I guess I must have asked something like "Oh, are you guys all from Melbourne?" but in my Minnesota accent. Well, the next thing you know this 20 year old is ragging on me because I can not pronounce his city's name correctly. Turns out an older couple was within earshot and came over and told the "Bugger" off and after introducing themselves it turned out they had camped in the BWCA in northen Minnesota a few years earlier. Anyway we had a great time talking about camping around the world. OK, that's it's for now but, remember I have many more of these... so... as long as this thread survives.........

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Steve West
Steve's Website
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Ask to see his Pit Bull.
You might get lucky (or Lucky).

'Turns out an older couple was within earshot and came over and told the "Bugger" off'

constructively, I'm sure.

People whose business is dealing with the general populace make politically charged statements in public forums at the peril of losing part of their potential customer base.

Hmmm. That's what a lot of you folks are doing by posting here

Mike

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

heh

Like I need to be afraid losing out on my share of the hush money.

...but you won't see me complaining that there is a radio conspiracy against my music. I don't get played simply because I suck.

ROFL...that was great, Jeff!! Levity does help. I learned long ago that my voice is NOT my gift!! So I don't have to worry about radio not playing me either. SongWRITERS sorta remain anonymous, for the most part!

Hugs,
Bobbie

Thanks for the highlight.
At least I can acknowledge it.

...

Don't worry Bit.
It's all subjective.
Bet there's lot's of stations up there itching for your tunage.

Yes this is a freedom of speech issue...If you saying something whatever it is... be willing and ready to face the music, so to speak....for what you say...popular opinion told the "Chicks" what they thought about it....

Good for her whatever she thinks her right to say what she wants.... but live by it....she's ok with it...she just cost her and her friends a lot of money....live by it...that's what freedom is all about....

funny you knew what I meant by that.

funny you didn't know what I meant.

no its not

if you can't beat em, confuse em.

I prefer to make 'em show their true colours and leave it at that.

and your colors are...?

Hey Bobbie,
Sorry for hijacking your thread here the last few days.

A little background on why I beat the drum here: (Then I'm done with this topic.)

The Dixie Chicks are actually one of my wife's favorite groups and even before "the flap" I could never really figure out why.

Natalie's voice just grates on my nerves when I hear it. To me, it is just not a pretty sound. Give me Eva Cassidy any day. Not Natalie's nasty nasal nuances!

So, once she took her stand and dug in with her heels against Toby, the South and 90 percent of her original fanbase, I kind of lost whatever motivation I may have had to start to give their music a chance.

On the other hand, I look at U2 who likewise have been rather politically charged all these years in their lyrics and some of their actions. What is the difference between these two groups?

I see Bono going straight to the people he may even detest, sitting down and at least searching for some common ground, something to lay a foundation on for a positive advance. He kills with his charm.

Poor Bush doesn't stand a chance around Bono. He probably looks in the mirror after meeting with Bono and says to his reflection, "What did I just do??" LOL On top of that, their music turns me on.

Have U2 ever turned their backs on their original fanbase? Not that I'm aware of. The Dixie Chicks have. They've basically called their original fans a bunch of rednecks and turned their backs on the people who initially supported them and bought their cd's and came to their shows in the beginning.

I think I've said enough here and again wish to offer my apologies for anything that may have drifted out of line on my part with this thread.

Bit's right - I've "shown my true colors" here. As far as Bob's condescension... whatever.

At least I've been honest and forthright. Beats sitting, reading and wishing I had the nads to say something. (Kinda like Natalie, only in my own country.) I already know where that leads. I can do w/out another ulcer and angiogram, if possible. Suppressing sucks.

I'll be done with this thread now. I've said plenty. Tip your waiters & waitresses!

Good luck with your music Bobbie. Take whatever I've said here with a grain of proverbial salt. It's hardly worth even that.

Sincerely,

Jeff

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If anything, the lesson to be learned from the Chicks scenario is: if you're quiet about expressing your opinions early in your career, you risk getting burned later when you surprise your fans with an unpopular view.

Ani DiFranco doesn't have that problem, nor do people like Billy Bragg or Steve Earle. They more or less said whatever they damn well pleased early on. U2 has ALWAYS been a political band from their very first album.

Sure, none of them are as big as the Chicks in terms of record sales (except of course U2), but who cares. They can sing about -- and say -- what they really feel, and no radio stations are suddenly gonna start smashing their records in a stadium. You certainly don't hear people telling Earle to "shut up and sing."

It's probably true that if the Chicks were upfront about their political views early on, they'd never have the mega-success they have now. But that's one of the choices you have to make. If you play along and are silent in order to gain favor from a particular audience, you'll have a lot more to lose when you open your mouth later.

I think the Chicks are better off without those fans who abandoned them. They'll take a hit in the pocketbook and still be wildly successful by any measure, with a more solid fanbase that actually cares what they think as opposed to just liking the pretty pretty songs.

If you don't want to be told "shut up and sing," say it loud and believe it.

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Scott Andrew
Lo-fi acoustic pop superhero!
http://www.scottandrew.com/music

[This message has been edited by scottandrew (edited 09-01-2006).]