JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Apple is a doomed company

I think so, anyway.

It's kind of a long thesis to explain, but basically it comes down to the same thing that's always been their problem - unwillingness to integrate, i.e. share.

The iPod, as illustrated below, is the dominant digital music player, and probably will be for a while, but it's still a luxury item that by the time gets truly widespread, will be competing with a more practical competitor - i.e. a cellphone mp3 player.

Yes, I've seen the commercials, and they're pretty ridiculous and short-sighted.

I have a lot more thoughts about this, but I'll let others respond.

I'm sure some will be offended, since Apple users tend to be a prideful bunch...


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[This message has been edited by behindthecouch (edited 05-23-2006).]

So what.

If you feel this way, why advertise your music for an iPod?

Jody

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Music That Makes Your Soul Happy!
www.jodywhitesides.com

Peoples have been saying that for decades. meh.

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I used to be indecisive, now I'm not sure... My Songs

Because, as I said, it is the dominant method of selling/purchasing digital music right now. People just don't buy mp3's it seems like. Some of the monthly services are having some success, and it will be interesting to see the effect of Urge and the new Windows Media Player, but right now that's the only way to make money digitally, and since people feel entitled to steal music from CD's, or just not buy them at all cause someone else stole them, I feel the need to promote digital music since at least it has no recurring variable cost.

Any questions?

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Where were you when this was a viable argument about 4 years ago?

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Music That Makes Your Soul Happy!
www.jodywhitesides.com

Are you saying it's not a viable one now?

I think it is because nobody has really challenged the iPod yet.

Also, their new aggressive ad campaigns, and the impending Vista/Urge release make it more interesting.

In the bigger picture is that nobody yet has a good answer to why people don't really like to buy CD's so much anymore, with the gap not being made up with digital sales. (it's not just piracy)

I know these are old topics, but if there have been no real answers, it's still a relevant discussion.

But don't address it if you don't want to. I just want to know what other people think.

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Why do you think "it's not just piracy"?I believe that is exactly the problem.

Having two teenage kids, I see how they and there peers view this subject. They are every bit as much into music as I was when millions were being made in the '70's in the music industry, when I was there age. Sadly, there are other options to "purchasing" music for kids these day's. In my youth, there wasn't. Actually, you could dupe cassettes, and that did happen on a very small level. Kids from my time dedicated a large part of ther budget for records. Not so now.

Rob

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I used to be indecisive, now I'm not sure... My Songs

I still buy CDs.

Not as many as I used to, but I still buy them. Both my wife and kid have mp3 players (and they buy more CDs than I do). Neither one is an Ipod.

As computers go, I still prefer Macs over PCs and I have both. People have been predicting Apples demise for decades now. They've (Apple) done a lot of retarded things. Most recently making upgrades only available on DVD when many machines that will run with the latest upgrades don't come with DVD drives.

Just dumb.

Damn dumb.

Still nothing is worse than swimming thru the crap of a PC OS upgrade. I'm still running all my design software on OS 9 and I never have problem with vendors when I send them files.

Apple doomed?

I'm from the Show Me State.

I'll believe it when I see it.

Digital sales aren't making up the gap but their growth is phenomenal. I just read the EMI's digital sales ballooned to $120 million up from $88 million the previous year. A large segment of that is music for mobile phones.

I think at this point, the question of "why people don't buy CDs" is moot. There are any number of reasons, but I think the primary one is that people aren't forced to buy a full-length CD anymore. At the end of the day, most people don't make purchase decisions based on things like liner notes, interoperability, etc.

And I think the Truth That No One Want To Believe is that there's going to be less money in only selling recorded music in traditional formats. It just doesn't make sense for an unsigned artist to invest in a full-length physical CD if that's going to be the only sales offering.

Tangentially, I read that Tool's latest CD moved 500K physical copies in the first two weeks of release. That's physical CDs. Their CD is not available on iTunes. But here's their secret: they're Tool. They've got a rabid fanbase big enough to take that risk.

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Scott Andrew
Lo-fi acoustic pop superhero!
http://www.scottandrew.com/music

[This message has been edited by scottandrew (edited 05-23-2006).]

I have been a mac user for many years. as a graphic artist (former graphic artist, now retired). Mac was the way to go. Mac and adobe, wre a match made in heaven.
As for the music side of it. I will be releasing a new album in the next few months. I will not be going the cd route as in the past, but rather selling exclusively through mp3 download.
I will not be able to take advantage of the Itunes market this go around, because I do not have a cd to sell, but will have access to many other download options.
I tunes and others who require a cd, hard copy version will just have to catch up. They are so far behind as it is.
I will be glad when the cd is a thing of the past. Can't wait for that demise. Heck, it's already a antique.
Of course for the die hard road jockeys a cd is a good idea, because they can make a few bucks
selling at shows.
All of the music that I have personally purchased in the past couple of years has been from either itunes or other download sites.
I can then burn my own hard copy and do what I want with it.
If I only wanta couple of songs from Joe and a couple from Sue, I can buy it that way. I can brn a disc with several artists on it.
That also works out better for my radio station, where I might want a particular song, and not a whole album.
Besides, there are very few artists making concept and series albums these days anyway. aside from Tom Petty's last rant, I can't really think of any, although I am sure they are out there..

As far as apple folks being prideful, I don't see that either. Smarter maybe, not having to deal with every virus and spy scam coming down the pike. Makes good sense to me.
Peace, Zz........

One thing to also note, there are still people who understand that MP3's are not as good of quality as an CD. So they will still buy a CD. Due to corporation stranglehold on net speeds, it will be probably 5 or more years before we'll see full CD quallity versions of audio files on iTunes and other services. At which point DVD Audio might make the mainstream.

There's lots of if's to your theory. But the facts right now are that the only real player in the game that is turning a profit is iTunes. As far as I know, none of the subscription services are profitable yet. I'll be willing to bet if a subscription service turns profitable, you'll see Apple offer subscription as an option for iTunes.

As for "people just don't buy MP3's"... Who? You? I know I still buy CD's if I really like the artist and the music. If however I only like the one song I'll find it on iTunes and buy it. If it's not there, then I forget about it. I don't use Limewire, Aquisition, Kazaa, or any of the other P2P networks. Wastes too much time searching for a file that isn't guaranteed to be correct and disease free. I know lots of people that buy CD's and MP3's, some of them even used to get stuff from P2P. It's all perspective. There will always be those that steal, because they can. Though there comes a point where ease of use out weighs the 'steal it' factor.

The reason iTunes changed the market is because of one thing - the experience of the purchase. iTunes is amazingly easy to use and the files are priced right and you get to own it, not rent it. Plus it integrates really well with the iPod. Both iTunes and the iPod are cross platform as well. That's how they got some many people away from the P2P stuff and why they're turning a profit.

You mention Vista and something called Urge, if they (Microsoft) can't make it easier to use than iTunes, it probably won't unseat iTunes from the throne. We all know that Windows/Microsoft are not known for their ease of use. So that's a tall order. That's even if Vista see's the light day, it's been delayed several years already.

I believe in Scott's post too. You can sell lots and lots of CD's if people love your music. It's plain and simple. If you create a product people want, they will give you money for it, no matter the format.

Jody

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Music That Makes Your Soul Happy!
www.jodywhitesides.com

[This message has been edited by Whitesides (edited 05-23-2006).]

lizzorn,
I agree with most of your post but need a couple clarifications:



Why not just burn 5 copies of your new songs onto a compilation cd - enough to get set up w/ cdbaby - so that your cd can be made available on iTunes, currently the largest and best available service?

Is there another reason I'm not thinking of to avoid the currnet holder of the largest marketplace other than what looks to be principle?

As I read my own mp3 sales statement, my stuff on iTunes outsells everything else combined exponentially.



I don't think it is iTunes who is requiring the hard copy cd. If I remember right, cdbaby is doing all the encoding and transferring of files to iTunes. I think this is partially to assure quality files are being sent of a certain and consistant standard.

Currently, cdbaby is the first and almost only way an indie artist can get on iTunes and many of the other digital services.

I'm also interested in finding out who iTunes needs to catch up to and who are they so far behind?

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JavaMusiK

Post here to get your cd added to the
JustPlainFolks Gallery at:
cdbaby.com/group/justplainfolks
AND
here to get your songs on iTunes listed on the
Just Plain Folks iMix at ]http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPublishedPlaylist?id=835746

Jody,
Am I correct in presuming you meant
. . . MP3's are not as good of quality as a CD.(?)

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JavaMusiK

Post here to get your cd added to the
JustPlainFolks Gallery at:
cdbaby.com/group/justplainfolks
AND
here to get your songs on iTunes listed on the
Just Plain Folks iMix at ]http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPublishedPlaylist?id=835746

Yup, I fixed it.

Jody

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Music That Makes Your Soul Happy!
www.jodywhitesides.com

I want to point out here that by saying "people don't buy mp3's", I meant "mp3's as opposed to iTunes songs".

In other words, people obviously buy digital music via iTunes, but I don't think they do very much through anywhere else, and my hypothesis is that it's because of Apple's dominance. (though their format is of better quality, but since when did that matter?)



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As to cd's, I have a question. Are new cars putting in cd players? If they are, cd's should have at least a few more years.Do the new ones have some sort of Ipod or MP3 interface? Those, to me, would be telling questions.

And behind the couch, how could Apple be doomed? Don't they have the Beatles on their label?

All the Best,
Mike

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

good point

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Actually Mike, some cars do come with an interface to plug your iPod in directly to the car stereo that still plays CD's. In fact a lot of aftermarket stereos are starting to show interfaces that do direct connection with the iPod. But not with any other MP3 players that I'm aware of.

Funny joke about the Beatles there. :-)

Behind, your hypothesis isn't a hypothesis. It's reality. How did that reality come to be? Apple created the right product and marketed it the right way at the right time. Same could be said for Sony when they marketed a little invention called the Walkman (actually Sony didn't invent it, but they got it right and made it popular). Eventually the iPod will fall out of favor, but at some point Apple will create something else - they always do.

You might have meant that most people buy digital music via iTunes, but with what you wrote it didn't even come close. My last paragraph, as well as my previous post about ease of use, explains the Apple dominance. Apple has always thought about the user experience since they created the Mac. Its finally donned on most of the world what that truly means in the past couple of years thanks to the iPod.

Why do you think so many people like it?

Jody

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Music That Makes Your Soul Happy!
www.jodywhitesides.com

[This message has been edited by Whitesides (edited 05-24-2006).]

Jody,

Cool info, now I wonder when they stopped putting in cassette players? Could be an indicator there for anyone planning on having a cd made?

Mike

P.S. My newest car is a 97. All four of our cars are paid for in full. Musicians need debt like alcoholics need a drink.



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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

>>Why not just burn 5 copies of your new songs onto a compilation cd - enough to get set up w/ cdbaby - so that your cd can be made available on iTunes, currently the largest and best available service?

<<I don't really want to deal with the artwork and packaging, right now.
I can create a graphic on the computer to be uploaded to the web.
Printing and packaging for a cd, is another thing.

>>> I tunes and others who require a cd, hard copy version will just have to catch up. They are so far behind as it is.

I'm also interested in finding out who iTunes needs to catch up to and who are they so far behind?
<<< Supply and demand.......
It should be just as easy for an artist to upload (supply) their digital album and graphics to itunes as it is for a fan (demand) to purchase it..
so far it is not. Not even in the ball park..

The majors can have a big push on itunes, with pre-release music for sale, on a particular day. Everything set down to the finest detail coordinated with their release date.
Going through cd baby takes a long time, and coordinating that with a release is near impossible, because you never know when your music might make it on itunes.
The independent artist (as far as I have seen so far) has no control whatsoever..

Compared to the purchase end of the deal, which is a snap., The supply end is tangled up in the red tape.

Z........

I tend to disagree. The "ease of use" argument used to be the case for sure, but it's a little outdated now.

I don't see much difference in Apple's products vs. everyone else's - Windows XP is pretty easy to use, and man that right mouse button comes in handy.

Apple seems to want to promote their cool features, while other companies work on integrating their stuff into people's life.

It's like they are the porsche and other companies are the combustible engine (or some other part that every car has to have, I'm not much of a car guy).

That to me is their fundamental flaw and the basis for the original thread.

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[This message has been edited by behindthecouch (edited 05-25-2006).]

Dude you're funny,

Being easy to use will never be outdated. Why? Too many people can't think logically.

In terms of a mouse and it's functionality - did you know you can you any mouse from a PC (usb style) with a Mac? So that point is moot.

In terms of integration into life, what do you mean by that?

I don't know of any PC that integrates with ease yet. Especially when you have to install drivers or download patches to make a printer, mouse, camera, or music player work. The PC's I use - even with XP - don't integrate easily at all. Unfortunately things are just plug and go on the Mac (tongue in cheek there).

Another interesting thing about integration. I've yet to go to someone's house and see a Dell, HP, Sony, etc., sitting in their living room running their TV and stereo. However I've seen that with the Mac Mini and I must say, its impressive. They have all their pictures, their music, and the ability to play DVD's all controlled from a nice little - easy to use - remote, from their couch or sitting chair. Not to mention it automatically networks to the other computers in the house wirelessly and acts like a server. If that isn't a computer that integrates easily into someone's life I don't know what is. When I get a TV, that's the setup I'm looking at. If you ask me, that IS integration into life for most people and its cool.

Here's a healthy integration: Nike and the iPod. Apparently new running shoes that will transmit data about your running workout to the iPod Nano so you know things about your run. Silly, but still integration into one's life. Does this mean Nike is doomed too?

As for your car analogy. Is Porche, Rolls Royce, Ferrari or BMW doomed companies? My guess is no.

Methinks you're just being a troll at this point. Arguing for the sake of aruging. So have fun.

Jody

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Music That Makes Your Soul Happy!
www.jodywhitesides.com

[This message has been edited by Whitesides (edited 05-25-2006).]