JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Amerecord and Hilltop, record companys?

Could someone tell me about these record companies, any info would be appreciated.

Thanks, Emmy

[This message has been edited by Emmy (edited 07-17-2004).]

The consensus over the years is to stay far away from both companies. Do a search on this site and you'll find quite a few first hand negative reports on both. In 6 years I haven't heard a single positive report about either.

Brian

Thanks Brian,

The reason I ask about these record companys, they both sent me letters asking for songs, or songs and lyrics, I have no idea how they would know my home address, but I was sure I could get some feedback from here.

Emmy

Emmy,

My guess is you registered a song with the US Copyright office correct? Sadly, it appears our government sells that info to these companies who then try to make money off the list. If you didn't register a song, then you must be on some other list they bought.

Brian

Yeah, I got a letter from Amerecord when I registered a few songs last year (and, funnily, my wife just got a letter from them last week so we were just talking about them). I went to their website, and since it didn't have any information about their business, and since the letters themselves were totally unsolicited I kind if figured they weren't on the up and up.

You're right Brian, I did register a few songs.
Thanks again for the info. Emmy

I'd like to find out if it's appropriate that the government is selling these lists? And who is getting that money for those lists? Is it accounted for in some official political budget? These companies have been ripping people off for years and it seems to me the government is helping. Does anyone know the legalities of this situation? If someone felt they were scammed, could they sue the government for selling them their private info? After all, if that info wasn't shared, they couldn't scam you right? If the government isn't selling this info, then how are people getting it?

I'd love to learn the truth behind this.

Brian

Amerecord and Hilltop are NOT record companies. In fact, neither are any kind of company. Every time I copyright my material with the copyright office, I get a letter from both "companies" a few weeks later. Back in 1998, when I got my first letter, I enquired about them at the songwriter message board (which is not in existence anymore) I was frequenting then and I was told that they were song sharks.

From what I have learned over the years is that our government is NOT selling any kind of lists. Any information you submit to the copyright office is not confidential information. Nowhere on the form does it state that any information you provide on the copyright form will be considered confidential information. The Privacy Act Advisory Statement for Form PA states and I quote "The principal uses of the requested information are the establishment and maintanence of a public record . . ." The key words are "public record". That means anybody has access to that information. So whoever is behind Hilltop and Amerecord and other similiar "companies" can easily compile a list without any help from the Copyright office or any government agency.

Hilltop and Amerecord are not the only so-called companies (you can call them song sharks or scam artist if you want). Be sure to thoroughly research a company before signing any contract or submitting any material. Beware of any company that seems to be approaching you for material.
for material.

I am wondering if we could all get together and put a list of all the companies we considered to be sharks or darn close to it.

Paul

Thanks to everyone who sent feedback on this subject, I know now what to do with my letters.

I guess no matter what you do, there will always be sharks lurking in the shadows, waiting to sink their teeth into you.

This message forum is a good thing, we learn from others mistakes, and it is really great that they share there misfortune to keep others from making the same mistakes.

Thanks again to all. Emmy

Laga,

Thanks for the info. So the question is how does a company access this info? Are you saying there's some sort of list published? Is there someone sitting at the copyright office going through submissions 1 at a time and writing down the addresses of these folks? There has to be some sort of list clearinghouse that is putting this together since these two companies have been doing this for a long time and seem to hit 100% of the people who register. How do they get these lists? What format do they come in? Can you or I walked into the Copyright office and walk out with a list of every person who registered a copyright? I still think there's more to this story. People's tax returns aren't made publicly available.. I can't imagine why this info should be either. If there's a legal claim of infringement, then I can see releasing info on a case by case basis. But giving them to old fashioned spammers? Seems like an unpopular policy in this day and age. Mail spam like this (which is about the best thing I can say about them) is no better than email spam and the government has acted aggressively against that.

Brian

Brian, I am not going to claim that I am an expert on this. What I am about to say is based on what I've been able to learn over the years and what I've observed.

I could be wrong, but I don't think there is an actual list. In other words, I don't think, with the government's OK, someone in the Copyright Office is busy making a list of names and addresses of everyone who copywrites a song and then either freely distributes the list or sells it. Whoever is behind Amerecord and Hilltop has very carefully set everything up and makes sure everthing is done discreetly and invisibly. I'm sure if anyone figures out exactly how Hilltop and Amerecord gets the necessary information to carry out the spamming and song sharking operations, both so called companies will vanish without a trace and no songwriter will hear from either company ever again!

The fact that any copywrited material is a matter of public record makes it easier for Amerecord and Hilltop to carry out their plans.

People's tax returns cannot be made publicly available because there's laws against that. All information given on a tax return is confidential information. When something is for public record, that means that ANYBODY can see that information. For example, in most states, marriage licenses and divorces are public records, so anyone who wishes to do so can see that a marriage licenses had been issued/granted to whoever and when a divorce has been filed and when it's final.

I do not know how it can be enforced, but the best way to stop Hilltop Records and Amerecord is for the Copyright Office to alter their policy and state that from now on the address (better yet, say the contact information)of the copyright applicant is strictly confidential information. With that change, the only information Hilltop and Amerecord will be able to have is the applicant's name and what was copyrighted.

I think I answered all your questions, Brian. If you or anyone here at the board has any more questions, feel free to ask. Email me if you would like to do so.

Sandy
Email: lagatagringa@aol.com

Two comments:

First, these guys apparently don't hit 100% of people who register songs. I've registered songs as far back as the 1970s and as recently as a couple of months ago, and I've never gotten any solications from them or anyone like them.

Maybe they don't like my music.... (sob)

Second, as Sandy points out, the entire point of registering a song with the Copyright Office is to stake a PUBLIC claim that you own the song. And in order to do that, you have to state who you are and where people can contact you.

The ability for people to contact you is actually rather important... because if someone wants to license your music, but they don't know how to find you, one of the first places they'll probably check is the Copyright Office.

It's all pretty much the same as, say, buying a piece of land and filing the papers at the county courthouse. You make a PUBLIC claim of ownership of some type of property, and of necessity you provide your contact information. If someone then wants to challenge your claim, they know where to find you (and, say, serve legal papers). Or if they want to, say, purchase your property, they know where to send the offer.

There's nothing particularly nefarious about it, although both types of claims can open you up to various con artists.

As to how these two particular companies compile their lists... who knows? The Copyright Office has everything computerized since 1978 or '79, so it's probably pretty easy...

--- Ed


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http://www.edperrone.com/music/index.shtml
http://edperrone.rideonmusic.com

I have just one more question, How do I go about getting into my records at the copyright office??

If there is not someone working at the copyright office that is selling this info, then how do these so called record companies get this info so soon after you register a song? I got their letters the same day I got my certifcate of registration, don't tell me they have someone sitting there searching for this info at all times, and how would they know to check my name, to see if I'm a songwriter??

This I do know, the government will sell your name, address and phone number to anyone who wants it, for 19.95. Emmy

Emmy raises the obvious point. There has to be a very efficient system that allows them to hit registrants almost simultaneously with their registration. As for why some people have never gotten a spam letter, here's my theory (but it's only a theory). They only hit someone the first time they register, rather than every time they register. I don't know what years these companies started, but it's possible they started after Ed had already registered something previously thus he was never contacted. On the other hand, to date, I haven't had a single report of someone being contacted by these companies who HADN'T recently registered songs with the government.

The fact that the info is public record doesn't tell me everything. There are companies that make a living compiling public info like this and selling it. So is it an insider? If it's an outsider, how can they get this info so quickly (Especially when it takes the government months to issue registration, why is the info available so quickly and so comprehensively to outside parties?) I really think there's more to this story. It's the type of think most people just shrug their shoulders and say "that's just the way it is" all the while someone, probably in addition to just these companies, are getting rich off a pretty slimy business tactic. Why not poke around more and see if it can be stopped or altered? If someone tries, maybe it will collapse like a house of cards.

Brian

I have just received a spam letter from them about two weeks age. I just want to tell you all to "PLEASE STAY AWAY FROM THEM AT ALL COST". Take it from me I sent a demo to them a few years ago when (I was still learning about the bad and the good of the business) they sent me that mass produce spam letter to submit to them with all of there fake credits and regardless of what you send to them they offer you a publishing deal to try to rip you off regardless of the quality and even if you send then a demo with a trash can banging with vocals they will send you a agreement to publish the song "Trash Can�. Thank god I didn�t fall for it and did not sign on the dotted line. To make a long story short you would call these people �Song Sharks� to stay away from.

Hi all-
I just called the Copyright Office, and a guy named Steve in the "Public Information
Section Within The Register's Office In Copyright" (yes that is a department), told me this:
Because the registered works are public information, the companies are free to "make their own lists-" and the Copyright Office has nothing to do with this.
His phone number is; 202-707-0613

Cal

Good food for thought-
"Never" give anyone $$$ to publish your works.

[This message has been edited by Cal (edited 07-15-2004).]

Yeah, but did you ask him where these lists were published or how someone makes the list of what has to be 10's of thousands of registrations a month? Can you or I get a list via a request from them or what exactly?

Brian

Hi again-
Steve was on his way out when I originally called- he leaves at 15:00.
I did not have a lot of time to get the details.
His number is posted, if anyone wishes to
call him, and get anymore information.


Cal

[This message has been edited by Cal (edited 07-15-2004).]

I can see what Cal is saying, if I was a record co, and wanted to get the names and addresses of the latest song writers, I would just check that dept, of course there would still be a lot to check out, but maybe our material is listed in alphabetical order, and they search a letter at a time.

I have never checked it out to see how our stuff is listed, I really don't know how I would go about this, is there a way to check our files without searching all of the copyright files?? Thanks, Emmy

MONEY SHARKS IN THE MUSIC BIZ!!

Well, if you go poking around the Copyright Office website, you basically find that, as we surmised, all of the registration information is considered public information. It is available to researchers personally in the Copyright Office, or (some information) via the Internet.

This page http://www.copyright.gov/foia/ talks about the Freedom of Information Act, what information is available from the Copyright Office, and refers to two circulars (Circ. 6 and Circ. 22) which tell you how to obtain this information.

The online databases do not contain registrant addresses. So I suspect if you were trying to compile a mailing list, you would indeed have to have someone physically go to the Copyright Office, where you can actually inspect the registration certificates (or perhaps their digital equivalents).

I have never been there, but I suspect it would be a fairly easy task to sit at a computer terminal and call up (for example) all of the Form PA's or Form SR's which have been filed during, say, the past month. Then you just sort through the ones which are music (as opposed to theater, etc.), and voila! Instant list.

If "instant list" does not provide the registrant addresses, then you simply move to the actual registration files and find each certificate to get the address information.

Or you make a list of the registration numbers and have the Copyright Office do the grunt work for you. For a fee ($75/hour search fee), they will look up specific registrations; but as far as I could tell from browsing the circulars, you have to provide them with the registration number for them to do that. I suspect they could find a goodly number of registrations per hour, making your 75 bucks go a long way...

And, again, I'll compare this to the real estate deed recording office at your local county courthouse. Go down there on any given day, and you'll find all sorts of people rummaging around in the records, sitting at computer terminals, etc. All of them are researching public records for some sort of profit-making activity (buying and selling real estate, appraising, developing, etc.). The point being, such research has to be easy enough to conduct to be cost-effective, or else they wouldn't be able to do it and still make a profit.

To touch on one of Brian's points -- "how can they get this info so quickly (Especially when it takes the government months to issue registration, why is the info available so quickly and so comprehensively to outside parties?)" -- Emmy said she got their letter on the same day she got her registration certificate. This means that they only got her information when the Copyright Office actually recorded the registration -- months after she actually sent it in.

It takes the government months to issue the certificate -- i.e., to process it and put it into the database, thus making it "public information" -- and at that point, these folks picked it up.

Which says to me that they do indeed have someone who goes in there once a day or once a week or whatever and cranks out a list of new registrations. Seems like computers would make this frivolously easy...

--- Ed


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http://www.edperrone.com/music/index.shtml
http://edperrone.rideonmusic.com

These guys have apparently been at it for a while, since I've been receiving letters from them since 1983, when I registered my first copyright.

------------------
Stone Marmot
experimental pop-rock
www.stonemarmot.com

I just found out that it takes 2 or 3 month after you recive your certificate of registration, for your registration to appear in the permanent files, so these people did not search the copyright files to get my name and address. Emmy

The moment your registration is received by the copyright office, you are protected-
Therefore, your work is in the system; along with your name and address.

Hi Cal.

I have a list of questions about copyright registration, one of them is( how can I see a record of my copyright registrations?) and in their answer they say it may take 2 or 3 months after you receive your certificate, for your registration to appear in the permanent files, I looked for my copyright reg, it said anything recent would not be there, maybe not the exact words, but that was my understanding.

Emmy

Emmy,

You can search the Copyright Office records online here: http://www.copyright.gov/records/

Select "Books, Music, etc." to get into the proper database.

As the Copyright Office notes in some of the circulars I was reading the other night, the records contained in this database are not complete. They don't, for example, contain the registrant's address and some other information. They just give you the registrant's name, the title of the work, the type of the work, and the type of deposit that was sent in.

(This system is down right now, by the way. Says it is down every week from Saturday 5:00 pm Eastern through Sunday noon Eastern.)

Apparently you are right about taking some time after the registration to get into this particular database. I just got a certificate back a week or two ago, and as of the other night that work does not show up in a search here.

But as Cal points out, the registration is in the overall "system" somewhere. The certificate has been officially signed, sealed, and delivered -- and, presumably, recorded somewhere in some fashion. Either the certificate itself has been placed in a file, and/or its pertinent data has been excerpted and recorded (in a book, computer, etc). In either case, that information would be open to public view.

--- Ed




------------------
http://www.edperrone.com/music/index.shtml
http://edperrone.rideonmusic.com

Hi Ed,

I still believe that someone is making a list of addresses, and selling it to these so called record companies, I'm not blaming the copyright office itself, but someone that has contact with all new registrations, is making a few bucks on the side.

As you found out yourself addresses do not show up in these databases, if there is anyone of you who can get into a recent file and get the address of the applicant, I would like to hear from you.

Emmy

Being that the copyrights ARE ublic, most larger companies hire a data entry person who sits in the copyright office and records data.

This is a very old practice, and musc isnt the only industry that uses this method of data collection.

It's marketing 101. If you do not wish to recieve mailings from a specific company, just send them an email or letter to remove you from the list.

Brian, Emmy and all....

Like I said in the "Nominees" topic, we should start an Awareness organization, or even better: A JPF Music Education program, that spells the names of scammers and their companies out clear for all to see. Make it accessible to the Music Industry!

Of course, we would need to make sure our information was 100% correct before publishing "their" name to the public.

Whaddya Think?

Just got my letters from them in the mail today...it must be a full time job for some lackey to scan the new additions at the LOC. They always spell my (real) name wrong too.

Ludi

hey John-
Welcome to the boards.
Nice to hear from someone from MI-
Yeh, I got mine too!
My copyright registration form was recieved by the Copyright Office on February 2/04'-
I got my Hilltop and Americord letters about
7/2/04', and just received my stamped certificate of registration on 7/19/04'.
It's interesting how a person cannot speak to a "live" person when calling these companies-
I was trying to investigate how they get our info-
Oh well, I never though much about them, or sending them anything.
We can all feel "important" though, getting
letters from record companies.
Not!!!

Good luck

Cal

An official JPF list of song sharks to avoid would be the fastest way to get JPF and Brian tied up in legal battles. The posts about folks experiences with these companies are a good source of information but are probably as far as it should go.

Rarely are these companies doing anything illegal. They are providing "services" and getting paid for them. That they do little to advance the buyers career does not make what they do illegal. Nor does mass mailing to lists of people they obtain from public records.

I don't think I said anything about them being illegal...hmm...are you in with them maybe? <g>

Ok, so put it in my name I'll handle the legal fees to do something that may stop these dirty scoundrels from ripping off the unwary traveler on their musical journey.

I don't know maybe it's better just to not do anything and let them learn for themselves. If a list is compiled, I'll host it on my web space, I have plenty of it. There are plenty of crooks out there acting like their on the up-and-up, simply taking money from those who do not know any better. It's illegal in my book, it's called ill-gotten gains in another book, I know of.