JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Smoking in Clubs: Has it affected artists/performers?

You can say that again. The funny part is he really thinks he gets it!

Watch out, the guy will insult you when he reads your post. I gave him a piece of my mind after he insulted me. Yes, quite childish, but it felt good I'm outa here. This place is full of followers, I don't relate to followers. Keep the faith!

[This message has been edited by Pattycakes (edited 04-01-2004).]

Oh no! Please don't go! We only just pushed you over the edge!

Wait! Aren't you going to going to do that last-word-junkie thing, where you come back to leave snide comments even after you said you'd left forever?

Wait! I'm short and skinny and pale and got beat up on the playground as a kid! I wear glasses! I believe in a representative goverment! Aren't you going to insult me too?

Please come back! Things were just starting to get ugly...err, interesting! I meant interesting!

You're still there, right? Aren't you sitting there reloading this page over and over and over?

Hello?

Worst thread EVER.

I am sorry to see Patty's personal attack and outburst. However, I am equally sorry to see the snide, condescending, sanctimonious and arrogant arguements which have consistently shown up on this thread from non-smokers.

Most ballparks are in the open air. Most are at least partially financed with taxpayer funds ... paid by both smokers and non-smokers. So a smoker can pay $50 to $90 bucks a ticket, after paying to build the facility, but cannot smoke a cigarette with his beer in the open air as he watches the game.

Hey, no problem, he will take his $50 to $90 bucks and spend it in the sports bar down the road ... Oh, that's right. You folks don't want him to smoke there either.

The main problem I have with you people, is that you see no room for comprimise. You want it all. This forces our backs to the wall and then we lash out, vehemently!

This country, and probably this organization, has many folks who quit smoking ten or more years ago and were told it would lower their health insurance premiums. The health and life insurance industries are the people who write the actuarial tables. They know, much more precisely than they admit, exactly what will happen with costs ten years down the road.

Is a much smaller portion of the population smoking now than it was ten years ago. Absolutely. Has any single one of you seen your health insurance payments go down for the same coverage you had then? Well, that is certainly a reason to take their word on any subject. ... and the guy who owns your local insurance agency, he's driving a five year old pick-up truck, right?

Maybe it is some of you who don't get it. There are a lot of smokers who have enough disposable, discretionary capitol to start a business, provide jobs for employees who want them, generate and pay taxes to the community, state, and nation in which they operate. Of course then, they'd have to deal with OSHA, the state labor board, insurance companies, the local zoning committee, and all sorts of other regulatory agencies ... leeches at the lifeblood of American Capitolism. ... or they could just buy some lakefront property, put in a big screen and satellite dish, buy a boat and build a dock. Oh, might want to put a semi-automatic weapon in the gun locker for when some arrogant, sanctamonious son of a gun comes to tell them they can't smoke on their boat.

When your responses consistently show you to be uncaring about the feelings of others, don't expect me to believe you are earnestly concerned about anyone's health or well being other than your own.

I think Patty's underlying point was simple and valid. If you think restrictive legislation is a wonderful thing and makes for a good business model, go the bank, take out a loan and open your smoke-free establishment. When you put your money and effort and life into a business, you do have a right to establish reasonable rules for that business. Don't tell the man down the street he has less rights or choices than you.

Besides, the more we smoke, the sooner we will all die off and then you can be king of the world like you want.

dawg


[This message has been edited by greydog (edited 04-01-2004).]

Rage seems to have unbalanced some of the brains around here, presumably those already addled by restricted circulation from cigarette smoke.

Of course, anyone who hasn't enough respect for their own lungs and heart certainly won't care about hurting others, either physically or emotionally.

Wanna lash out? Each time you light up one of those disgusting coffin nails near another person you're lashing out.

Grow the hell up.

The smoke from my "nonsmoking" neighbors barbecue blows in my house all summer long, filling my house with smoke and a stench that hangs around for hours and hours. It's more annoying than any second hand from sigs I ever experienced (and I'm not a smoker) and I'm sure a health risk to some degree. Should our Government ban barbecuing too?

Ha! It took a while but the loser posing as "pattycakes" (who has previously signed up under multiple OTHER screen names over and over because the person has NO LIFE) finally came out from under the rock. One day the sad little person will grow up and get a life. It's amazing how the same piece of crap always stinks no matter what fake new wrapper they put themselves in.

Of course the loser will return. Clearly there is nothing more in it's pathetic existance to keep it going than to haunt our site.

Good riddance til you show up again slimeball.

Brian

Were you abused or molested as a child? You exhibit the signs. Conformity, meekness, lashing out at women, self confidence issues. Seek some professional help, there is hope.

BRian...

Are you saying it's who I think you're saying it is ?

Wow.....

What a dope !

As you already know, Brian, I think you're totally wrong on this one..BUT..
I do understand your dedication to your opinion...

We Americans have been raised to believe that every problem has a practical answer that speaks fairly to everyone.
the trick is to find it..

I don't think this issue has that kind of answer...

Somebody's gonna get screwed..

I'm listening to Dawg pretty much....
I think he's on the right page....

I still think the simple answer is to offer smokinbg and non smoking venues...
People can decide which one they want to go to..
Employees can decide which one they want to work at..
Performers can decide which one they want to work in...

Seems pretty simple to me...

but....I'm a Cubs fan..so what the Hell do I know...

PLAY BALL !

Wrigley Field does allow smoking in the stands except for a specific non-smoking area...at least it was that way a couple of years ago..
Maybe it's changed...I dunno !

This argument hasn't made me want a cigarette....
That's good....

I guess.....

Smoke, Smoke, Smoke that cigarette
Puff, Puff, Puff, until you smoke yourself to death
Tell St. Peter at the golden gate
That you hates to make him wait..
But you gotta have another cigarette !

I love that song !

The kinder, gentler man of the new millenium..
Bob Young

[This message has been edited by bob young (edited 04-02-2004).]

Dog,

I think there's been a lot of compromise since the start on this issue. But if you look at it objectively, most of the burden has still been on the breathers, not the smokers. First there was no restrictions. Then smoking areas, smoking hotel rooms etc. But breathers still were forced to breath it in, become coated in it and so on. Even as a smoker, I imagine you don't find the smell of your clothes and skin/hair to be that great after being in a bar all night. Non smokers have always compromised. Now, after trying all the alternatives, some are resorting to working on a ban. The bans are intended to protect the employees, not the customers, who do voluntarily enter bars. But the wait staff, the cashier, the band playing, the guy fixing the pop machine, and even the UPS delivery gal all are forced to deal with the smoke if they want to keep their paycheck.

Smokers have the most powerful lobby on their side. For them to be losing indicates how strong the anti smoking people have been fighting. Even if you believe a conspiracy that says insurance companies want to save money, it seems obvious that if people weren't healthier due to the ban, they'd have no money to save? A conspiracy proves there's a measurable financial health impact caused by second hand smoke. If there wasn't, insurance companies wouldn't care.

I haven't tried to get anyone to change their mind on smoking. What I really wanted to find out is how it was impacting our members doing their WORK.. not how it was affecting their social life. So far, aside from Michael Meal, no one has found any detrimental issues with smoking bans.

I don't find it grossly unfair to turn the tables a bit on the minority and say, instead of the 75% of the non smoking people having to go outside to escape the smoke, have the 25% step outside to smoke in the first place. Truman is correct, it's clear after years of experiments, both sides can't be realistically acommodated inside.

I do appreciate the vast majority of the folks who have posted here and kept it civil. Aside from psycho multi-personality/multi-user name/multi-AOL/hotmail/yahoo email address Patty, most people remained on point. And though Patty seems to be obsessed with me and my newly turned 40 year old (Friday the 26th) body, it's clear that Pattycakes couldn't play well with people on other posts either, even when I wasn't involved. But then I am sure that's all TAXI's fault too. Pattycake ALWAYS thinks everything is TAXI's fault. I am sure they are part of the government conspiracy. Watch out for that black helicopter Patty..

Brian

Patty here!

Now, Brian dear. You're not smart enough to deal with me sweetheart!

Did you really think you could block my IP? Don't you know I'm too smart for that? You can block my ip as much as you'd like, but you can't keep me from posting. You know why?

I'm too smart for you

I'm glad you've shown your true colors once and for all to everyone.

It doesn't take a genius to sign up for a new AOL account or Yahoo account. The fact that you delete them afterwards isn't a stroke of brilliance either. It does expose you as a pathetic loser though. If there were any doubters before, there aren't now.

Brian

Looks like Paltrycakes jerked everyone's chains real good. Some of us have to learn how to debate. If the smoking don't get us the stress will. Watch out for the button pushers, they throw you off task and away from the topic. Usually they have a hidden agenda like our "hate Brian" transgender poster.

bob, you're mellowing out in your old age. Quit it, you're scaring me.

Mike



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Mike Dunbar Music

Mike...

I learned a very good lesson about myself right here at JPF..

I caught myself letting the argument take me out of a logical place and into a winning/losing place...
I've always, always loved a good heated exchange..I've learned so much from them throughout my life...
But..only when logic was a common element on both sides...
There are a few people here at JPF..in fact, a few on this thread, who don't discuss fairly...
I let them get my goat and I sink to their level...

that makes me as big a fool as I say they are..

I just don't want to do that anymore..

Now, Brian and I could probably disagree on what friggin' day it is..we're very different people..BUT..I think he's really well intentioned and he believes in artists just like me..so, how can I get sore at him ?

Maybe I am mellowing....maybe I'm finally getting smarter...Oh No...Bob Young the voice of reason....
OMIGOD !

Bob

one thing...I have heard the smokers state incorrectly on this thread...the nons want to force their will on everyone....untrue!!...the nons are not doing anything but breathing, and I think that is unvolunteerly.

And I do believe the name calling has no place in debates on this board. I am not completely sure (and this is not an excuse for patty) but I think Brain might have drawn first blood with "thickheaded". I know when I first joined this board I was called a name because I had a different point of view. It will make you mad.

rick

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www.fallingforever.net

oh yeah...it was "snob", I was called a snob over and over...even though I told him the correct adjective for me was a$$hole.

love to all smoke and non

rick

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www.fallingforever.net

Hey...Brian or other computer wise folks.... my new email is rickooo@direcway.com do i need to change it on my jpf profile and how??

thanksrick

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www.fallingforever.net

[This message has been edited by rickooo (edited 04-02-2004).]

neat -- somebody pass the popcorn.

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kit malone
http://www.kitmalone.com

Hey Rick,
The big difference is that Patty is not an actual person, but rather a series of aliases used by a very sad little person who doesn't even believe in their own opinion enough to put their real name on them. But sad little Patty always ends up exposing who they really are with their explosions and then their pre-teen actions of signing up as more "fake" identities to continue to hide their deep insecurity for who they really are.

On any given topic here, roughly half the people are on one side and roughly half on the other side. But the most interesting thing is those halves change from argument to argument. That's because people really do have a wide variety of opinions, and if people are being honest, with no "agenda" they will find themselves on the same side of an issue with someone they often disagree with. On this one, Dawg and Bob are on the same side, even though often they disagree. Most of the time I am on Dawgs side and not on Bobs, but last month I think me and Bob were on the same side in several arguments in a row. For people like Patty, however, they are 100% of the time against anything said by certain people. They can't think of topics or issues. They can only focus on people.

Here's a concept I wish we could all use more often when debating topics here:

Little people focus on individuals.
Medium People focus on events.
Big people focus on ideas.

Now, all of us have done all of the above many times. But in general, most of the people here have focused on ideas more than individuals they want to disagree with. People like Patty, on the other hand, normally always focus on nothing more than the fact that Patty hates me, Patty hates TAXI, Patty hates Danny Arena etc. (I can see me and TAXI, but Danny Arena is one of the nicest guys I've ever met in our out of the music industry.. I was far more offended by Patty's attack on Danny than on everything else that was said.. especially since it's clear that Patty doesn't know anything about Danny).

I think all of us would be better off focusing more on ideas rather than individuals. An example:

On the Anti Smoking Side:

Individual:
Dawg is bad because he's against a smoking ban.

Event:
Smoking in public venues is bad for non smokers, it should be banned.

Idea:
Do smoking bans negatively affect artist's and musician's efforts to make a living?

On the Pro Smoking side:

Individual:
Brian is bad because he supports smoking bans.

Event:
Smoking Bans are bad for venues and smokers who want to socialize.

Idea:
Do smoking bans negatively affect artist's and musician's efforts to make a living?

So, with that, for I think the 5th time, I am trying to steer the conversation back to the topic that I actually started:

Smoking in Clubs: Has it affected artists/performers?

Brian

i figured it was something like that with patty.

On the smoking thing.

It bothers ME, therefor I dont like it.

As far as whether it has effected artist in their perforance..i say probally NO with a few exceptions.

It really does make me physically sick.

On Brian, I really DO appreciate what you do, although you wont catch me saying it very often...i feel like I am kissing up.

rickout

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www.fallingforever.net

Oh yeah, I hear that. I do alot of Karaoke rooms for fun and to exercise my Vox. We are from LA, and they shut down the smoke program almost 10 years ago. It got quiet for rooms for about 2 months, then people started coming back. If that is your room, that is where you want to be. Right? We would have still gone down there anyway.
But, I found I still owned my high notes late into the evening. Here's a new toughie.
We just moved to WA state and we were very surprised that it is still full tilt smoke em if you got em. That has been hard to get used to all over again

Well geez, Michael,

What did you expect. The state was named after a tobacco farmer. <g> Try Youngstown, Ohio. Bob quit the habit.

dawg

Michael,
Could be the places you've been to. When I lived in Washington (just left 18 months ago)The two bars I sang in the most were still smoke free. and since they were so supportive of the local musicians (one, extremely so) the smokers didn't appear to stay away.
Then again, I wasn't in Seattle, was instead across the water on the penninsula.


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Harriet
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/9/harrietamesmusic.htm

Harriet,
Very cool. we want to go across the water. Just feeling our way around so far. Why did you move away?

Michael,
that's a long frustrating story.
the encapsulated version... my husband and I had an exotic mushroom farm (no....not those kind ) that hit some very large road bumps. suffice it to say we couldn't grow fast enough to be cost effective soon enough. (bad choice of business partners)
So we eventually sold everything to my sister and her husban...ie they bailed us out.
And the only job my husband could find in his area of expertise was in Texas. Quite a change for both of us. and hopefully not a permanent one. we have hopes of moving back to the west coast when he retires in 10-15 years.

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Harriet
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/9/harrietamesmusic.htm

We are not smokers and I am alergic to cigarrete smoke so for us it is great news when there is less smoke inside close places, we do know for a fact how cigarrete smoke affects to our health and it is great if this law would be more impose since we have to think about non smokers rights too, I mean no one is saying for people not to smoke if they want to but do it outside where it doesn't affect others since is so damaging to health, also as singers is very unhealthy to vocal chords and lungs, Florida is really not so hard on this but we hope that gets to change for everyone's sake....love

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And..."Don't give up, give Love"..:)

Briggitte...JBLOVE
JBLOVE at IUMA
JBLOVE at Soundclick
JBLOVE at Songramp

Personally, i'm not a smoker so i would prefer the bars to be antismoking environment.
I just don't see alot of bars omitting smoking.. i think it would be great if they did so us nonsmokers wouldn't have to enhale the second hand smoke!

Hey Harriet,
Sorry to see you go. Quite the scenic change for you. Us too. This is a huge music town though. I can hang with the rain and such, but you can have all that gray if it aint doin nothing. Give me some thunder and lightning if you are gonna cloud up these skies!
Much luck to you,
Michael