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To name chords, you need to know the keys. These "flash cards" are good for folks who have a basic knowledge, but want to know all the key signatures by memory:

http://www.musicards.net/music_flash_cards/key_signature_flashcards.html

Then you will quite often have a choice as to which note in the chord you designate as the root or "name" note. Once you get past triads, every chord can have more than one name note.

You can even find triads that function as chords other than their obvious name note. For example take the triad: C E G. Well that's a good old C major chord, but throw it in first inversion, E G C, and it can function as a minor sixth (E G B C...only without the B). So there's a case to be made that any chord has more than one name.

Again, though, if you're interested in being able to name chords with some traditional precision, you need to learn the keys.

Here's another good tool for someone with a decent basic knowledge, the Key Trainer:

http://www.musictheory.net/trainers/html/id83_en.html

Here's a good, basic explanation of keys for someone starting at the beginning:

http://www.empire.k12.ca.us/capistrano/Mike/capmusic/Key%20Signatures/key_signatures.htm

A graph of scales and triads:
http://jmdl.com/howard/music/keys_scales.html

And here's my explanation of scale and key, relating to the number system, as written for the JPF newsletter some years ago:
http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=388672&page=2#Post388672

Here's a downloadable MP3 tutorial on scales and triads:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=41132&songID=5172396

And here's one on extended chords:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=41132&songID=5172384

Don't lose your keys!

Mike

Hey Mike

Thanks for the information on those whammy chords. That sounds about right from what I remember. (Which is very little lol). Also thanks for the key and chord charting websites. Those look like great resources I'll have to check those out.
Derek

That info really brings me back Mike.
I had chord books like that I lost over the years.
I hav'nt been able to come across many through the years that were as much in depth into diads and triads outside of some in rock bands song books.
It is almost like a new experience seeing that again.

Hey Mike,

What's the chord formed by the first 4 notes in "Beauty and the Beast?"

Or, in a different inversion, D - Eb - G - Bb?

Can't figure that one out... bass is in G, but it may not be the root.

Thanks!

Here is a very good link for guitar chords

http://www.8notes.com/guitar_chord_chart/

There is another one for piano

http://www.8notes.com/piano_chord_chart/

I'll have to give it a listen, but it certainly would have the characteristics of a G minor chord (G-Bb-D), especially if the bass is playing G. In a most minor scales, you also have a flat 6th (Eb) as a natural scale tone, which would make it simply a non-chord tone. Maybe Mike has a different take on it...

So... some sort of Gmin variation? OK. If it matters, the song it's in is in Bb.

I have a piano chord dictionary, but unless I can find an online source with a "reverse lookup" feature, it's been impossible to find this one just browsing.

Thanks for the links though, Jim!

Linda

Hey Linda, the sheet music I have for Walt Disney's "Beauty and the Beast" has E G B C as the first four notes. It has "Tale as old as..." E G B C. The whole first phrase is: "Tale as old as time"...E G B C down to F. Which as a melody move you from a C chord, with the melody supplying a major seven, to an F chord with the melody as the root. In numbers, it's 3 5 7 1 4

Now, for D Eb G Bb (playing detective) in Bb, it is 3 4 6 1. In Ab it is #4 5 7 2. In Eb it is 7 1 3 5. I'm not seeing a good pattern, unless it's not the melody but accompaniment?

But to answer the chord it forms: in Bb it forms the Gminb13 as Larry is suggesting; or the Ebmaj7 unusually with the major seven in the bass (if it's not a jump down from the D to the Eb? perhaps with the D and Eb as pick up notes and the G being the first note of the melody?); or the Bb......///////jkjp]eoia-]!!!!!!!!!! Hold everything!! You said "Different inversion" Then it IS definitely an Ebmaj7, you're in the key of Eb, and I'll bet you that the notes of the melody, in order, are: G Bb D Eb, 3 5 7 1...same as my 3 5 7 1 in the key of C. And I'll bet the next note in the melody is an Ab.

It's an Ebmaj7. You're not in the key of Bb, you're in the key of Eb (is the key signature Bb Eb Ab? I'll bet it is...gee I'm betting a lot these days, maybe I have a gambling addiction...better call Montel...no, he's on reruns...maybe the government will help me?)

I really need to get a life. Maybe a hobby? Collecting stamps? No I'd obsess about that too.

All the Best,
Mike

No, the melody goes D - Eb - G - Bb (in 8ths). Minor, minor key.
But I noticed if I start at G and play up - Bb - D - Eb that it plays "Beauty and the Beast." Which distressed me a little. Urgh! So, nevermind that reference - phooey. I'm off somewhere.

And no - it's 2 flats (Bb, correct?), and minor, which means it's not Bb after all, it's, uh, G minor?? There's one Ab accidental in this little piece, but it's clearly an accidental.

And no, the next note in the melody is back down to D (half note/downbeat).
Then D - Eb - G - Bb (in 8ths)- down to C (half note).
D - Eb - G - F (8th, 8th, dotted 8th, 16th)- down to D (half note).

Remember, I'm not predictable, Mike - I didn't know most songs only have 3 chords till last year. I play with the whole box of Tinkertoys. LOL.

So.... now that I figured out I'm really in Gmin... I bet it's a Gmin b13 like you first said, and is a variation on Chord I in the scale. Which isn't in my chord dictionary.

It's just a little instrumental Etude, anyway, but I like it. It was born last night. I *love* minor stuff.

Linda


EDIT: A-HA! I found EbMaj7 in my chord dictionary - that's exactly the chord I described. Yay! But I *am* in Gmin, with no Ab.

BTW, what do I win? You lost your bet - twice!
Huh, huh, huh???

Linda

OK, so it only reminds you of Beauty and the Beast, yeah it's similar. You win the honor of having proved me wrong. Stand in line for your prize. It's a long, long line.

Gminb13 it is.

Nah, if I'm gonna wait that long I'd better be in line for a ride at Disneyland.

On to the mystery... why doesn't my Alfred Chord Dictionary have that one listed...? [I spent a whole whopping five bucks on the thing, so I wouldn't have to bug the resident theory experts anymore! And what's the first thing I do? Write a song with yet another weird and un-nameable (by me) chord.]

Oh well, we can chalk that one up to Unexplained Mysteries of the Universe. Thanks, Mike!

Linda

They don't list it because it fits so well as an Ebmaj7, that there's very little reason to call it something else. As a Gmin add b13, it's almost a tone cluster. That flat thirteen, or flat six,or sharp five, is just so discordant with the five in the chord, that it would rarely be used in polite company

Now, if you separate the Eb from the D by an interval of a major seventh, then the ear is not as "jarred." Then, also, there's more reason to call it an Ebmaj7 chord. Again, when you have chords with five notes, that spell so perfectly a certain chord name, even though it acts as another chord because of the leading of the notes and the bass note, most folks would still call it by the name that fits it the most. It's just for convenience and good communication. If I tell a piano player to play me and Ebmaj7, she'll jump right on it, if I tell her to play a Gmin add flat thirteen, she might take a few seconds to figure it out. Fow quick reading, use the most common chord name.

What? You won't wait nine or ten measly hours for HONOR! What's this world coming to?

Mike

Hey Mike, can you help me with this one,

C
G
Db
D
G

I play it in a song "Why Can't We" which is on the MP3 feedback
forum but don't know what its called.

Tony.

Tony,

Without checking your MP3, I'm guessing that the Db and D are not played either at the same time or in the same octave. Most likely, these are played as an arpeggio, perhaps letting the notes ring into each other.

Depending on the context (the chords before and after this), the C and G seem to suggest some sort of C chord, but the Db and D (flat nine and nine) are unusual.

Playing it with C in the bass going C G Db D G, it sounds like a G chord with C in the bass, moving with what I'd call a C# to a D. If it's played as an arpeggio, it has a "Lydian Chromatic" feel to it a la George Russell.

Playing it retrograde of that: G D Db C G gives it a C chord feel, it has a resolution somewhat similar to "How Dry I Am"

In any case, I wouldn't ordinarily call this a "chord" but rather a tone cluster (if played all at once) or simply an accompaniment. If I absolutely had to call it a chord, it would either be a Csus2addb9 (the D is the suspended second...no third...the Db is the flat nine) or a Gsus2add#11 (the C is the suspended second...no third...the C# is the sharp eleven.) These names (though, I believe, accurate) are so unlikely as to be of much use. They'd scare the guitar player. Better to simply write out the notes as played.

Good one!

Mike

Hey Mike,

This is great although I could have been more helpful if I
had told you I play Gm before and after this one, as you
say better to write out as played but it is good to be able
to give it a name,

Thanks,

Tony.

You're welcome, Tony, Probably the Gsus2add#11 (I laugh every time I type that ) since it's after the Gm. Nice interesting problem.

All the Best,
Mike

Davey, I understand what you were saying, but just to clarify an "F double-sharp" or "F##" is a "G" not "G#". As Dunbar eluded too early-on, the sign for "double-sharp" is a slightly modified "x" so "Fx" = "G" (also, as you and Dunbar wrote, this is "enharmonic").

Now that we're clear, I agree 100% that spacing is the key (no pun intended ) If you want to have complex colours in your chords, but are not a fan of dissonance, then you need to space them out (i.e., utilize the concept of the "octave"). HOWEVER this will change with the Range of your instrument. Low tones, like Bass and Tenor ranges, need much more spacing because they get muddy very quickly. A Major 3rd (consonant interval) on the low end of the piano is pure mud when compared to a Major 10th (same notes, just farther apart). Conversely, if you are in a high range, you can cram a lot of notes very close together and still get away with it. On piano, generally speaking, anything above "middle C" is high enough for intervals like Major 2, or "suspended 2nds." Below "middle C" you start to see much larger spacing. BTW I think this falls under the category "Voicing" or "Chord Voicing" if you want to research.

Mike, very well put. I would also mention Bela Bartok. There are some incredible chords in his music, and many clusters. My favorite is made of two intervals (bottom-top) m2 + m3. Example: F#-G-Bb. Also, E#-F#-A. For those interested, I have a score online you can view (and listen to!) using cluster chords: http://www.sibeliusmusic.com/cgi-bin/user_page.pl?url=nickedelstein
click the menu item "Canons, Chorales, Concert" and then click "The Oglethorpe Adventure." You may have to download an Active-X flash control but it's easy and worth it

Cool Nick, I had to study some Bartok in college, and worked on his "Mikrokosmos." It was fun to realize so much of his music was used in the old horror films of the '30s.

That m2 m3 sound, to me, is like the melodic minor passage of 5#, 6, 1.

Good Stuff!
Mike

yeah one of the instruments I don't talk about too often is my trombone, I used to play a ton. During college one of my buddies transcribed "Free Variations" from Mikrokosmos, no. 140. I notated it for him (on the computer, from his hand-written scratch) and then a t-bone quartet performed. Man, Bartok is never the same once you've heard it performed by 4 trombones.

I still have the file, and also "Wrestling" (M. no. 108), if you're curious.

Yeah, I'd like to hear those, please.

Linda That chord is Eb 7 th,

you have Eb G Bb thats Eb major and then you have the flated 7th of Eb is the D , its a simple chord very commonly used.

Cant believe any one else has not named it where are you guys coming from.

Yes someone else did see it, but whatever you put in the bass it will change the overal effect a little or a lot.


Play a D major against a B bass
or a C over a D bass and listen to the options that you will find in creating new melodies.

It's what Pro writers do all the time and it's known as Bass Inversions.

Dont believe every thing shown in books i have found many example where they are wrong.

Substitution By Function, I mentioned that ten years ago on this or another board Know one had a clue what it was about.

All pro writers of any distinction use that method.

Read the books by Jack Perricone and Jai Josefs.

Hi Split! Thanks!
We've been calling it an Eb Maj7th for the past few replies here. Though it technically still could be something else.
Anyway. I'm not sure I remember the tune in question anymore - I hope I wrote it down! Yikes.

~sigh~

Linda

Hi Linda,

Yes you are right EbMaj th, of course I was reading D b
in your chord decription (Silly me)

Beautifull Chord Linda, Carpenters used it a lot, I use it when I can on Ballads


Freddie Mercury what an inspiration Linda you have good taste.
He ws the best vocals and the wonderfull songs, that he wrote

Have you read The Biography of Queen ? I saw them in Cornwall when they were called Smile, (Before freddy)

Oh my GOODNESS! You DIDN'T!!! How cool is THAT.
If you could indulge me and tell me all about it... I would so love to hear that story. PM is ok if you want. How were they as Smile? Without Freddie? (Or John!) That was with Tim Staffell then, right?

That was waaaay back. I may not have been born yet.

I always thought changing the name from Smile was a good call. LOL.

"Queen" was Freddie's idea all the way - and convinced the other guys in classic "Freddie fashion," by calling them up and telling them each that someone else said it was OK, until they all agreed, "Well, if Roger's fine with it I guess I am," "Well if John says..." "Well, if Brian's OK with it..." etc.

I haven't read that bio - I'm trying to find the "official" sources and just read those - I don't like the ones by some so-n-so just looking to make a buck off some hearsay - but it's hard to tell which is which offhand - and some of the books are hard to find in the U.S.
I have the new photo journal by Mick Rock though. It's very cool. He writes well. It only goes to 1975 though.

Anyway... so I haven't read the bio you mentioned, but I know way more trivia about them than I really ought to. LOL.

I wish they would write a "Hard Day's Write" or "U2 by U2" sort of book.

Oh! And one more piece of trivia - today is Brian May's birthday. I can remember it 'cause it's the day after my oldest daughter's.

OK... enough thread-jacking by me... but that is very very cool that you got to see them when they were unknown. Thanks for sharing that!

Linda

I believe this is called "Jazz" That D Major with B bass is a.k.a. "B minor 7th" chord. I teach my students this all the time, it's all about overlapping Major and Minor triads. Play a "C" and add an "Eb Major" triad on top, and you wind up with "C minor 7." Or play a C with E minor triad, and you get "C Major 7." Amazing how both chords Eb Major and E Minor, which are dissonant in relation to each other, both work over a "C" note!
Obviously it works vice versa too. Keep going to 9th chords - those are my fave - just two Major triads overlapping (like C Major and G Major).

This is especially usefull when improvising, thinking in terms of arpeggios and modal scales. 11th chords like "C11," which seems complicated to some folks, are just the C Major triad with a Bb Major on top. Just a fun, different way to visualize chords!

Nick and Split Level,

I use simple chords and lines to make complex harmonies all the time in the studio. I'll record a simple chord, then on another track, record a different simple chord. The result will a more complex harmony. One of my favorites is to play a C7 on one track and a Dm on another.

The applications are endless, but mainly it's the concept - or rather, an approach to the abstract concept - of triads (chords). So many folks have difficulty understanding the relationship between chords, scales, intervals, Keys ... in my mind this is just the easiest way to perceive and relay to others.

Mike! C, D, E, F, G, A, Bb = C13 sweet

I found this chord while I was messing around with the guitar--it's not in a song, but I'd love to know what it was!
The notes are X X B D# G# B. It's in the same shape as a Cadd9 on the 8th fret, but down a fret. So, the fingering is XX7897.
Thanks for the help

Welcome to JPF, wildcrayons!

Chord names often depend on context, what chord came before and after, because you can use many different names for chords. When I look at one chord by itself, I go for the simplest name.

If I call the G# the root, The B the flatted third, and the D# the fifth, this would be a G#minor.

Nick,

Yes sir, the triad is the building block of chordal harmony. One cool thing is to stack major triads, using the fifth as the next triad's root. It's the circle of fifths in triads. Then stack major sevenths or ninths and play around with those chords as if they were melody notes.

It's an E7#9 . Just because Jimmy doesn't play the B doesn't change the chord. It's an "implied" note.

I never figured out what the name was for this chord. The G and thin E string are depressed. The other strings are open. It follows a D chord and precedes a C chord. I use it in a song called "Ain't it sad the way a train can let you down." It's the only song I've ever used it in. I'm sure some of you know the name for it. Thanks for your help.

Pat, there are loads of guitar chords with implied notes. That Hendrix chord being one that is notable (pun intended). I look at it this way. If the missing note can be included without changing the character of the phrase, then it is implied. If adding it changes the character of the phrase, then it must remain missing and the name of the chord should reflect that.

Dan, it depends on which fret the G and thin E are depressed. If, as I suspect, they are fingered on the second fret, and if the low E is not played, the chord is a D6.

Mike, I forgot to say the strings are depressed on the very top (or end) fret, so you are depressing the actual G and E note. I don't hit the other E note on the strum.

Excellent point, and I agree. Often, in folk music, say you are in key of C, and the turn around chord is G, as it often is, well, we know quite well that you could add an F to that triad, and the true chord, therefore, is a G7, if articulated more precisely, since the chord occupies the dominant position. So, even if you play just a G triad, the F is implied.

Threads like this one (in which there were many) are much more interesting than the political ramblings. BTW, this is a music website.

John

Agreed.

"...the F is implied."


Peace,

Dave

This is cool...

https://www.8notes.com/guitar_chord_chart/A9b5.asp

It's like an old Mel Bay chord book with sound