Who's Online Now
13 members (Bill Draper, bennash, Fdemetrio, Gary E. Andrews, Deej56, Guy E. Trepanier, Gavin Sinclair, ckiphen, Everett Adams, 2 invisible), 790 guests, and 352 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Register Today!
Welcome to the Just Plain Folks forums! You are currently viewing our forums as a Guest which gives you limited access to most of our discussions and to other features.

By joining our free community you will have access to post and respond to topics, communicate privately with our users (PM), respond to polls, upload content, and access many other features. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free; so please join our community today!
ShoutChat
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. Don't flame, hate, spam.
What's Going On
My exploration of AI created song stuff
by Bill Draper - 05/20/24 05:30 PM
Highly effective country boy
by VNORTH2 - 05/20/24 04:49 PM
Ohio Black Expo, CBUS
by Gary E. Andrews - 05/20/24 04:16 PM
Inspirational Videos Post Them Here
by Bill Draper - 05/20/24 04:16 PM
OHIO Performing Arts & Concert Series, Athens, O
by Gary E. Andrews - 05/20/24 04:10 PM
Problem I foresee with ai
by Fdemetrio - 05/20/24 03:07 PM
One Kiss At A Time (Carroll Kiphen's lyric)
by Bill Draper - 05/20/24 02:55 PM
.
by Sunset Poet - 05/20/24 02:06 PM
Bruce Mountain Band, Riverside
by Gary E. Andrews - 05/20/24 11:47 AM
Bad Luck And Trouble
by VNORTH2 - 05/19/24 09:28 PM
In The Blink Of An Eye
by Gavin Sinclair - 05/19/24 08:00 PM
Whatever for
by Rob B. - 05/19/24 07:32 PM
Modern Day manic
by Fdemetrio - 05/19/24 10:40 AM
A Man's Home is his White Castle
by Fdemetrio - 05/18/24 11:13 PM
.
by Fdemetrio - 05/18/24 07:44 PM
Piano Song # 2
by Fdemetrio - 05/17/24 07:24 PM
Did one for Barry
by Fdemetrio - 05/16/24 11:26 PM
I'll Keep Holding On
by Deej56 - 05/16/24 01:03 PM
..
by Fdemetrio - 05/15/24 10:34 PM
Ai Evolution of a song
by Fdemetrio - 05/15/24 07:15 PM
Wanting Less
by bennash - 05/14/24 01:26 AM
Name That Tune Challenge
by VNORTH2 - 05/13/24 07:09 PM
Bob Dylan, Bloomingdale's and Baltimore Dates
by bennash - 05/13/24 09:47 AM
One More Try
by bennash - 05/12/24 08:34 PM
All You Are Is A Lie
by Bill Draper - 05/12/24 01:27 PM
Pour Choices
by Gavin Sinclair - 05/12/24 12:42 PM
Tater's Summerfest, Maysville, Kentucky
by Gary E. Andrews - 05/12/24 09:18 AM
Route 23
by bennash - 05/12/24 07:22 AM
Moved to soundcloud
by Fdemetrio - 05/11/24 07:21 PM
MP3-AI versus MP3-Non AI
by Fdemetrio - 05/11/24 03:32 PM
Top Posters
Calvin 19,857
Travis david 12,264
Kevin Emmrich 10,941
Jean Bullock 10,330
Kaley Willow 10,240
Two Singers 9,649
Joice Marie 9,186
Mackie H. 9,003
glynda 8,683
Mike Dunbar 8,574
Tricia Baker 8,318
couchgrouch 8,167
Colin Ward 7,911
Corey 7,357
Vicarn 6,916
Mark Kaufman 6,589
ben willis 6,114
Lynn Orloff 5,788
Louis 5,725
Linda Sings 5,608
Fdemetrio 5,360
KimberlyinNC 5,210
Neil Cotton 4,909
Derek Hines 4,893
DonnaMarilyn 4,670
Blake Hill 4,528
Bob Cushing 4,389
Roy Cooper 4,271
Sunset Poet 4,255
Bill Osofsky 4,199
Tom Shea 4,195
Cindy Miller 4,178
TamsNumber4 4,171
MFB III 4,143
nightengale 4,096
JAPOV 4,007
E Swartz 3,985
beechnut79 3,878
Caroline 3,865
Kolstad 3,845
Dan Sullivan 3,710
Dottie 3,427
joewatt 3,411
Bill Cooper 3,279
John Hoffman 3,199
Skip Johnson 3,027
Pam Hurley 3,007
Terry G 3,005
Nigel Quin 2,891
PopTodd 2,890
Harriet Ames 2,870
MidniteBob 2,761
Nelson 2,616
Tom Tracy 2,558
Jerry Jakala 2,524
Al Alvarez 2,499
Eric Thome 2,448
Hummingbird 2,401
Stan Loh 2,263
Sam Wilson 2,246
Wendy D 2,235
Judy Hollier 2,232
Erica Ellis 2,202
maccharles 2,134
TrumanCoyote 2,096
Marty Helly 2,041
DukeWill 2,002
floyd jane 1,985
Clint Anglin 1,904
cindyrella 1,888
David Wright 1,866
Clairejeanne 1,851
Cindy LaRosa 1,824
Ronald Boyt 1,675
Iggy 1,652
Noel Downs 1,633
Rick Heenan 1,608
Cal 1,574
GocartMoz 1,559
Jack Swain 1,554
Pete Larsen 1,537
Ann Tygart 1,529
Tom Breshers 1,487
RogerS 1,481
Tom Franz 1,473
Chuck Crowe 1,441
Ralph Blight 1,440
Rick Norton 1,429
Kenneth Cade 1,429
bholt 1,411
Letha Allen 1,409
Deej56 1,404
in2piano 1,404
Stan Simons 1,402
mattbanx 1,384
Jen Shaner 1,373
Charlie Wong 1,347
KevinP 1,324
Vondelle 1,316
Tom W. 1,313
Jan Petter 1,301
scottandrew 1,294
lane1777 1,280
Gerry 1,280
DakLander 1,265
IronKnee 1,262
VNORTH2 1,257
PeteG 1,242
Ian Ferrin 1,235
Glen King 1,214
IdeaGuy 1,209
AaronAuthier 1,177
summeoyo 1,174
Diane Ewing 1,162
ckiphen 1,133
joro 1,082
BobbyJoe 1,075
S.DEE 1,040
yann 1,037
David Gill 1,035
9ne 1,035
Tony A 1,016
argo 986
peaden 984
90 dB 964
Wolvman 960
Jak Kelly 912
krtinberg 890
Drifter 886
Petra 883
bennash 851
RJC 845
Brenda152 840
Nadia 829
ant 798
Juan 797
TKO 784
Dayson 781
frahmes 781
teletwang 762
Andy K 750
Andy Kemp 749
tbryson 737
Jackie444 731
Irwin 720
3daveyO3 704
Dixie 701
Joy Boy 695
Pat Hardy 692
Knute 686
Lee Arten 678
Moosesong 668
Katziis 652
R.T.MOORE 638
quality 637
CG King 622
douglas 621
R&M 614
Mel 614
NaomiSue 601
Shandy 590
Ria 587
TAMERA64 583
qbaum 570
nitepiano 566
pRISCILLA 556
Tink2 553
musica 539
deanbell 528
RobertK 527
BonzaiWag 523
Roderic 522
BB Wilbur 513
goodfolks 499
Zeek 487
Stu 486
Steve P. 481
KathyW 462
allenb 459
MaxG 458
Philjo 454
fanito 448
trush48 448
dmk 442
Rob L 439
arealrush 437
DGR 436
avweek 435
Rob B. 434
Stephen D 433
Emmy 431
marquez 422
kit 419
Softkrome 417
kyrksongs 415
RRon 408
Laura G. 407
VNORTH 407
Debra 407
eb 406
cuebald 399
EdPerrone 399
Dannyk1 395
Hobart 395
Davyboy49 393
Smile 389
GJShades 387
Alek 386
Ezt 384
tone 380
Marla 380
Ann_F 379
iggyiggy 378
coalminer 377
java 374
ddreuter 371
spidey 371
sweetsong 370
danny 367
Jim Ryan 360
papaG 353
Z - man 350
JamesDF5 348
John K 348
Jaden 344
TheBaz 340
Steggy 339
leif 339
tonedeaf 336
rickwork 334
Eddie Ray 332
Johnboy 328
Bob Lever 328
Helicon1 327
lucian 326
Muskie 321
kc 319
Z. Mulls 318
ptondreau 313
ONOFFON 312
Chris B. 310
trush 304
ed323 297
Ellen M 294
markus-ky 293
lizzorn 291
nicnac49 290
Char 286
ktunes 285
Top Likes Received
JAPOV 88
VNORTH2 49
bennash 39
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,724
Likes: 43
Top 50 Poster
OP Online Content
Top 50 Poster
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,724
Likes: 43
McAlester News-Capital, Okla.
RAMBLIN: Hank Williams: Time to leave ole Hank and his songs alone
James Beaty, McAlester News-Capital, Okla.
Sun, October 23, 2022 at 11:40 AM

Oct. 23—I recently ran across the name of a man identified as a country music songwriter, a man I I'd never heard of before named Paul Gilley, who purportedly wrote some of the classic country songs of the 1940s and '50s.

Since I like a lot of the music from that era, I decided to look a little deeper — and felt surprised to learn there were claims he wrote the Hank Williams classic songs, "I'm So Lonesome I Could Cry" and "Cold, Cold Heart."

I immediately felt some skepticism because there have been many times where some have claimed they wrote the songs which are credited to other writers by the song's publisher and record company.

Sometimes such claims can be validated — but many more times they are not.

I've long been weary — and wary — of claims made by some that music publisher Fred Rose wrote many of the songs credited to Williams.

Rose, who founded the music publishing giant Acuff-Rose with country singer and fiddler Roy Acuff, was no doubt a great songwriter himself. Born in Indiana, relatives in St. Louis raised Rose, who as a young man performed on pianos for tips in the riverfront city.

He later moved to Chicago and started hitting as a songwriter, writing hits such as "Red Hot Mama" for Sophie Tucker.

Moving to New York City, Rose continued his songwriting endeavors in Tin Pan Alley, including collaborations with Gene Autry that led to songs such as Autry's hit, "Be Honest With Me."

When Grand Ole Opry star Roy Acuff decided to start the first country music publishing company in Nashville, he invited Rose to become his partner, and the rest is music-publishing history.

Acuff-Rose had the credo "that no man, or girl, that entered our door would be cheated out of a song, or one penny of anything that they've got coming."

When a young Hank Williams made the move from Alabama to Nashville to try and break into the country music business, he pitched his songs to Acuff-Rose — dealing with Fred Rose himself.

The story goes that Rose felt so impressed with Hank's songs, that he asked him to write a song virtually on the spot — supposedly to ensure that Hank had not "bought" his songs from another songwriter. He gave Hank the basic subject of a poor boy whose true love is about to marry a rich man for his money.

Supposedly, it only took Hank a short time to come up with what evolved in the classic song " A Mansion on the Hill," also known as "Mansion on the Hill."

I say evolved because "Mansion on the Hill" lists both Hank Williams and Fred Rose as writers. The Hank Williams classic "Kaw-Liga" is another hit credited to both Hank and Rose as co-writers.

But does that bolster the argument that Fred Rose wrote many of the songs credited to Hank Williams? No, it does the opposite — because the songs that Rose and Hank worked together on listed both of them as credited co-writers.

On most of Hanks' biggest hits, Hank alone is listed as the sole writer of his songs. If they'd been written by Rose, or even if they were collaborations between the two, Rose would have rightly taken a co-writing credit.

Both Hank and Rose were great songwriters. Rose wrote one of my favorite songs, "Blue Eyes Crying in the Rain."

Rose's music publishing partner Roy Acuff, originally recorded and later released in the song in 1947 — with "Blue Eyes Crying in the Rain" achieving country music immortality when Willie Nelson recorded it as the centerpiece for his 1975 album "Red Headed Stranger." Willie's version not only hit #1 on the Billboard Country Music charts it also earned Willie a Grammy for "Best Male Country Music Vocal.

All of which goes to show that although Hank and Rose collaborated on a few of Hank's classic recordings, Hank wrote most of them by himself.

If Rose wrote a Hank Williams hit that Hank had no hand in writing, Rose understandably took the sole writing credit — unless he had another co-writer.

I still remember my surprise in learning that Hank Williams had no hand in writing one of his most Hank-sounding songs, "Settin' the Woods on Fire." It's credited to Rose and another co-writer. — which also goes to show, Fred Rose would credit writers and co-writers of Hank's hits.

Hank is listed as the sole writer on many of his most enduring recordings, including "Hey Good Lookin'," "I Can't Help It" and "Jambalaya" as well as the two songs some claim Gilley wrote, "I'm So Lonesome I Could Cry" and "Cold, Cold Heart."

I've seen Gilley mentioned as the real writer of the song "Crazy Arms," the career-making honky-tonk anthem that became Ray Price's first #1 song in 1956. But steel guitar player Ralph Mooney and Chuck Seals are the credited writers and I believe they wrote the song.

I've also seen Gilley listed as the "real" writer of another Hank Williams hit, "Half As Much." If you look at the songwriter credits, sometimes the songwriter of "Half As Much" is listed as simply "Williams" — but that doesn't refer to Hank Williams. Instead, it's reference to the credited songwriter, Curley Williams, from Georgia, which clearly disproves the Gilley authorship claim for that song.

Not that Gilley himself publicly claimed to have written any of the songs, as far as I can tell. He supposedly had coy answers when asked about them by his friends, such as he couldn't talk about such matters for contractual reasons.

Some of those who push the Gilley claim for authorship say that his parents were so distraught when he drowned in 1957, they burned all of his records, materials and contracts which supposedly would have proven his authorship of all those classic songs. That too, seems a convenient way of explaining why the claims cannot be definitely proven.

Hank took 12 songs to #1, and had 55 charted singles in his career, which ended all to soon when he died on Jan. 1, 1953, at the age of only 29. He is listed as the writer or co-writer of 167 songs in his lifetime.

So he supposedly met with Gilley in a bus station in Nashville where he bought the lyrics to "Cold, Cold Heart" and "I'm So Lonesome I Could Cry," according to those pushing the Gilley theory.

Really? Hank was wildly famous in his lifetime, far beyond country music circles, as pop artists were also recording and scoring hits with his songs. And he's meeting with some unknown guy in a bus station to buy songs written by someone else?

That's a theory I don't buy. Fred Rose would have had to been in on it too, since Acuff-Rose was Hank's music publisher — and I've never seen anything to impugn Rose's character. After all, he's the same guy, who along with Roy Acuff, made the vow that no one dealing with their publishing company "would be cheated out of a song, or one penny of anything that they've got coming."

If anyone has proof to the contrary, I'd love to see it.

In the meantime, I think it's time to leave ole Hank alone and let him sing his songs — on those enduring recordings still treasured by his fans world-wide.

Contact James Beaty at jbeaty@mcalesternews.com.


There will always be another song to be written. Someone will write it. Why not you? www.garyeandrews.com
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,724
Likes: 43
Top 50 Poster
OP Online Content
Top 50 Poster
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,724
Likes: 43
The fact the Acuff-Rose company made this their credo;
"Acuff-Rose had the credo "that no man, or girl, that entered our door would be cheated out of a song, or one penny of anything that they've got coming.""
is an indication that some people would steal the Intellectual Property of the 'real' Song-Writer.
It was common knowledge, either that it had been done, or that people had claimed it had been done to them.
And people commonly undervalue their product. A guy once offered to hook me up with people who would buy all rights to a Song for about $1,400, as I recall.
Even today, 2022, people know the value of a 'hit' Song, and may try to get as much 'ownership' as possible, buying it completely, the writer signing a contract conveying all Song-Writing and Publishing Royalties to the 'buyer', retaining no right to claim authorship.
When the record business fell apart it wasn't uncommon for Artists to try to contract for permission to change one word in a Song, making them a 'co-writer', and earning a slice of the Song-Writing Royalties.
Colonel Parker always contracted to add Elvis as a co-writer on the Songs he 'covered', 'covered' because Elvis never wrote a Song.
When he tried it with Dolly Parton, who wrote "I Will Always Love You", she pointed out that she had already had a big hit with it so it wasn't logical to cut Elvis in now. Elvis never released the Song, though it is likely there's a recording of it somewhere. When Whitney Houston covered it Dolly said, "I paid a lot of bills with that one!"
Myths, stories, lies, three chords and the truth. Who knows. But going forward, beware. Your signature on a contract binds you to abide by whatever is written in that contract. Don't give away the store! Your Song is your Company. Take care of business.

Last edited by Gary E. Andrews; 10/24/22 03:21 PM.

There will always be another song to be written. Someone will write it. Why not you? www.garyeandrews.com
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,050
Likes: 16
Top 40 Poster
Online Content
Top 40 Poster
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,050
Likes: 16
Changing a word or two to become co-writer on a song is still being pulled today. That is about as low as a person can go.

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 851
Likes: 39
Top 500 Poster
Online Content
Top 500 Poster
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 851
Likes: 39
What I got from Fred Rose . he helped pen a few songs with Hank to make them commercial , at least that's how the story goes. I really don't play the pitch game anymore , I'm sure it can be achieved with REAL connections . I'd rather cut songs and sell CDS with Q@R stickers . Its more rewarding . Maybe the guy who changed a word or two had more connections to get the song cut , Hard to say , I've heard a lot of stories , Unless your in the REAL Nashville circle , its hard to say what's real or BS.

Last edited by bennash; 05/07/24 04:53 PM.

Link Copied to Clipboard
Support Just Plain Folks

We would like to keep the membership in Just Plain Folks FREE! Your donation helps support the many programs we offer including Road Trips and the Music Awards.


Newest Members
chriscastle, yasir252, cathennashira, Samwise, HappySousa
21,470 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums117
Topics125,836
Posts1,162,047
Members21,470
Most Online37,523
Jan 25th, 2020
Just Plain Quotes
"Never accept no as an answer from someone not empowered to say yes in the first place." –Brian Austin Whitney
Today's Birthdays
There are no members with birthdays on this day.
Popular Topics(Views)
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5