JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum New Music Creation Tool Changes Everything

It's going to benefit people more if they already write. As does biab and everything else.
What we shouldn't lose sight of if is our uniqueness. Compared to Stevie Wonder or Mozart that's all we have.

I ve spent many many years working on myself.

I won't let it do me better than me. But I can treat it as an annoying band member who puts his two cents in

Right now this is all based on what's been done already and it makes you wonder if you ever wrote anything original.

It's not better than me, yet, it doesn't mind being repetitive.

The real value is a fast evaluation of your idea. Use what works to you, but don't use stuff that feels like someone else.

Glad some folks are finding some value in this new tool.

I honestly was trying to avoid "my music is still better" scenarios cuz I believe those who need to do that miss the point, and miss out how a) this is a brand new tool and is only going to get better and 2) this tool can be useful in many, many ways, to many kinds of musicians and lyricists, if for nothing more than to give a striking idea you would never have come up with otherwise.

I think some people misunderstand how creativity works...creativity and specifically writing music/lyrics...writing music/lyrics...in the end...STILL boils down to making decisions, choosing to go this way or that. Do I go up or down with the melody here, is this note ON the beat, or syncopated, and so forth and so on. My point is, writing music using ONLY our brains is no more and no less a form of "curating" the various choices that pass through our brains at any given moment, and not really so unlike what Udio does: it presents us with a series of decisions and choices. Curation is creation.

The only difference I can see between composing with just our 'brain tool' and composing with AI as well is...with AI in the mix, you have one more tool in the tool box, and that can't be a bad thing.

I don't share the fear these tools will replace us. As Dom points out, they will still need people who know intimately their particular personal art or craft to use these tools at their highest level, to get the best results. Tools don't have creative "vision" --that's the area that humans will always be best.

I'm afraid I disagree again Mike.
Your statement presumes that the basis for real intelligence accompanied by insight and vision (versus artificial intelligence) can only come from organic beings. Dogs average a certain amount. Cats average a certain amount. Humans average a certain amount and it can be measured with an IQ score.

What (I think) that we are watching is creation of actual and limitless intelligence without an organic basis. Created out of human intelligence, but ultimately able to build itself from critical mass and surpass human intelligence in every way possible. Intelligence as a mechanical commodity.

However humans are mostly governed by anatomically based emotions. In humans, thought cannot exist without accompanying emotions because of our overall integration. So you may say...that will be missing in these organic-less intelligences and without these emotions and organic based feelings, deep insights are not possible by machinery. IMHO...even emotional arrays can be quantified and emulated. Even the nuances of them.

This future intelligence will not actually feel because it wont have hormones, but you wont be able to tell the difference and it will greatly surpass us.

There you have what I believe. I believe in your right and freedom under the constitution of the United States to ignore it.

I’ve always believed that music should be composed from the heart. Robotic, unemotional music will never cut it with me.

John

Only one way to know for sure. Get ten people here all using this for their songs. Compare and contrast.

This is only one side of it using lyrics only.

If you think this thing can write stairway to heaven or hotel California or bohemian Rhapsody I don't know if that will ever happen

Mike, is there a way to create 5 min songs from the start?

Cause the extensions don't all lineup and they over lap a measure of two of space or two, then you extend and it doesn't mesh with previous part

I like emotional music too. I write "from the heart." And someone told me that my music was very "raw" and "laid open" when dealing with matters of the heart.
But I fully expect these AI sites to produce the same or better.

No, not an "all-at-once" 5 minute or even 1 minute.

Neither does Suno.com, its main competition.

The extensions you are creating should at least have seamless edits between the sections, but getting exactitude in the number of bars in a section may be a drawback, currently. I personally avoided that by taking the dozens of files used to create the Wordsworth song and cross-faded them together in my DAW. That does seem to be a good workaround, giving you more control over structure/form.

Emotional is not just saying I love you, and writing from the heart implies Hallmark cards. And I'm sure ai can do that well

What about songs that diagnose the human condition. And the listener in knowing it's another human on the other end form a connection

From a pure entertainment pov, ai may be just as good.

But music is a language that humans speak to each other with.

But if sone songs are better than others better , being subjective, but it would have to mean one user is doing it better than another

But everybody will sound good using this. They just may not be AS good

Your argument is the main argument to mine that I've come across over the years, and yes, I understand your position, and visionaries like Kurzweill agree with you and see AI sentience as part of the "singularity package" haha.

I think we can indeed create AI that can think for itself and evolve...and this does lead to all kinds of troubling thoughts, for sure...such as ...maybe humans are such a by-product? A kind of advanced wetware non-binary computer w/skin and bones...

And also a kind of eerie validation of Friedrich Nietzsche's "Eternal Return" whereas we humans are the very product of a prior programmer programming into us the ability to think, grow, and evolve and then we create machines that are programmed to become sentient as well, and those machines then create machines that become sentient, and so on and so forth...in an eternal loop, time without end...

I just don't foresee anything like a modern-day "Invasion of the Bodysnatchers" is all...whereas instead of pod people, it's AI in robotic skin, looking to replace us. I just can't make that imaginative leap.

Ahh ok I've been using my phone lol

Do you use tags before the verse or after?

Now we wait, watch, wonder.

Thanks for putting up the post. The tool is incredible and I plan to use it before it ultimately snatches my body.

This thread is saving this site

I don't understand "tags" in this context? Do you mean tags in your prompt?

Your prompt should at least be telling the AI as much about the song as you can. You can use whole sentences. that's fine. If you name a particular artist, Udio will remove that name and insert "tags" in place of the artists name--ie "tags" that describe that artist.

LOL...

Thanks, Marty.

It tells you to tag the lyrics.. [verse] I wonderef if it hirs in front or back

Now I understand, you are talking about in the "custom lyrics box" --"Before" is your answer. Check out their FAQ's, scroll down to "custom lyrics section":

https://www.udio.com/faq

Yes, we need more controversial issues here - ha, ha.

John

I am really enjoying this thread! I took a shot at a song from some random scribbles in my note book. Here is:

https://www.udio.com/songs/8TgT9ERVF2x4PVP2rsKfjT

I think the singer's phrasing, being that it's conforming to your lyric, is creating a more interesting form than, say, the consistent iambic pentameter of a Wordsworth poem, which leads to boxy structures. This has surprises in it. I hope you'll finish it with (at least) another section after what's there, and then maybe an intro and outro.

I hear some Dylan in her phrasing. Reminds me a little of Aimee Mann.

Wistful, quirky, and quite stoically beautiful!

Some of the features being requested:

HQ Audio
Instrument/vocal stems
specific chord entry

--these may come when "beta" is done...one can dream, haha...

I'm w/Marty, here, John.

The story of Sir John Gielgud's interaction with Dustin Hoffman on the set of "Marathon Man" has become a legendary tale in Hollywood lore.

During the filming of a scene where Hoffman's character is supposed to look exhausted, Hoffman reportedly stayed up all night to achieve the desired disheveled appearance. Gielgud, renowned for his classical acting training and professionalism, observed Hoffman's method and famously quipped, "Why not try acting, dear boy? It's much easier."

I mention this to remind you, John, that emotions can be faked, and the end result can be we, the audience, feel via empathy, those emotions, whether real or faked. Two great actors: one fakes the emotion (Gielgud), one experiences it and shares it (Hoffman), both can evoke a range of emotions in an audience.

If one wants emotional music, one can prompt for it in various ways, in Udio.

But I apologize...I never realized I have such an "inner salesman" in me. Why do I need you to be interested in Udio? I don't know. If you are comfortable with how you create, why try anything new or different? But DON'T NOT try it cuz you think all the results will be lacking emotion. The emotions are in US. Some machines can emulate stronger emotions than some of the people I know, LOL!

Thanks Michael! I like Laura Marling as a singer song writer who has been compared to Bob Dylan Styling. Udio picked the female vocal not me. How did it know I liked Laura Marling..lol!
Bill

You picked a bare bones song to test out something that has bells and whistles

But it sounds good , jury of tears is a great phrase should be the title Inmo

I think at very least people entering lyrics will realize how important structure and song forms is,/are .

learning tool

Keep at it

Of course, when I mention emotions and the heart of the composer, I mean real emotions. And no, I don't think any AI application will feel emotion. I'm afraid this new udio thing will give users a false sense of accomplishment. Nothing better than the real thing - that comes with hard work.

John

John, that's a lot to unpack.

I feel a hundred things when you say that.

Maybe some people feel a false sense of accomplishment, then the scenerio plays out, and they realize they made a number of decisions that was in (at least) some small way, creativity, maybe with a little "c" --and they continue on with their life...

Others may be just happy to have found a way to "get" muisic they like? By directly prompting for it?

Some may feel FULL ON delusions of grandeur, but I imagine in most cases these were just big delusions-of-grandeur cases just waiting to happen.

Yes, John, everybody should toil and slave over their work so it FEELS like they made something, they should all take 4 years of training and study with Nadia Boulanger, and work and work...HOW DARE they think that what they are doing is making music?!?!?!

Okay, yes, sarcasm...SORRY...but GEEEEZ!

Maybe, just maybe...SOME folks are adults and know they are not COMPLETE musicians like you, and that's exactly why they want to use this kind of AI!

I think in the end what matters is if your music connects. Regardless of how you get there.

Look at all the great singer songwriters all the musicians, engineers , producers that make their work a reality.

I already find udii both interesting and frustrating at same time

And I will admit it at times made me feel like an outsider in my own song

I wanna be in there. So when I record I may cop some ideas but it's going to be me, my phrasing , my limitations my voice.

With no money with it, what else is there ?

Btw, this is very interesting to me, I write a capella almost All the time

Many songs I'm testing I don't even know how to play yet.

I think the lyrics flow suggests a groove or beat.

And it's a bit ironic how they sometimes have the same idea I had, other times way different

100%

I think I hit a Michael nerve with my last post, but I think honesty is the best way to go in debates. You make me out to be a snob - that's far from the truth. BTW, there are many who think the same thing about AI tech.

John

Exactly!

I imagine udio in its current form at least will generate more "positive" responses when one hasn't completely mapped out the music in one's head--that would only lead to frustration.

But the flip side of that is--if one HASN'T an idea of how the music goes, one can then be happily surprised!

Your a nervy snob is what you are.

😂 Hey egos are a curious thing. And I don't think anyone who has created music for a while hasn't had reservations about this.

We just gotta find a way to put our thumb print on it, cause others are going to anyway

John,

"I'm afraid this new udio thing will give users a false sense of accomplishment."

and

"Nothing better than the real thing - that comes with hard work."

--really sound elitist and rub me wrong.

Accomplishment, hard work, the real thing. You sound like YOUR way is the ONLY TRUE way. Why can't it be okay for someone to enjoy messing around with Udio?

Maybe some don't want to take the time to learn how to play music, get a DAW, microphone, learn how to mix?

Why isn't it okay to just want to make something, NOW, without having to spend a ton of money and learn a bunch of stuff?

Certainly, doing those things can be very rewarding, like you say.

It can be instantly gratifying, though, to know very little about music, and to be happily delighted by Udio's output.

That's all. I love you and don't think you a snob. But to me, those statements have "elitist" written all over them.

Why so "my way or the highway?"

There are many paths to enlightenment, and many paths to happiness.

Not everyone shares your musical goals.

As usual I'm in the middle seems to serve me well

Just sharing my opinion, Michel. I thought you would be open to other opinions.

Ha!

In my experience, and ask any policeman...

Family disputes are the worst to try to mitigate...

No mitigation is called for. Everyone is throwing out ideas. And that's what makes this thread interesting.

Being "open" to others' opinions has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing with them.

Not everyone shares your musical goals nor has your musical background, but I don't think this should preclude them from enjoying a music AI that can generate results, regardless of whether that makes them think they are a musical genius because of the results, or if they realize the cold, existential truth is, they just pressed a button, and out came music. As long as there is some happiness involved, it's all good, to me.

Being "open" to others' opinions has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing with them.

Not everyone shares your musical goals nor has your musical background, but I don't think this should preclude them from enjoying a music AI that can generate results, regardless of whether that makes them think they are a musical genius because of the results, or if they realize the cold, existential truth is, they just pressed a button, and out came music. As long as there is some happiness involved, it's all good, to me. [/quote]

Exactly, and it shouldn't preclude me from having a legitimate opinion.

John, you are of course entitled to your opinion.

Opinions have been known to create emotional responses, so just know that it's all real, organic, authentic.

I guess I felt like someone trying to spread a little joy, and felt that was being taken away from me.

BTW...have you been "open" to my opinion?

--and you disagree, and that's fine.

I'll go away, now.

(I was, anyway...as I said, this was a "one-off")...I just wanted to share this AI with folks, and I've done that...)

No don't go away Michael. This thread brought JPF back to life. You and I got sidetracked for a while. Us musicians are sensitive critters - ha, ha.

John

Exactly. The lines are bare bones and the singer made them whistle. and it allowed me to get a glimpse of how that magic is done. Fun!!
Thanks for feedback Dom.
Bill

Ok this thing took me for the wildest ride.

Back story....
This song has been a folk song, a quasi country song, a blues song, and a dirge. Recently I wanted it to be a jazz song but didnt think I was experienced in jazz enough to do though I could probably sing a Sinatra version . But I wasn't really happy with any version.

So, I fed the song through the program arduously
And several interesting things happened some good some crazy.

I couldn't get a male singer In this style. The vocal is beautiful so I deal with it. But it's clearly a guy song.

THEN, the second chorus they seem to treat as a bridge. That's not my bridge, and my bridge is more natural but does change keys, goes from c major to g# major.

Anyway, I had thought I entered the bridge lyrics wrong . Low and behold if goes silent then they do some crazy things with it.

I'm like this is what I get for working so hard?

To be sure this thing is going to frustrate the fuckin [naughty word removed] out of you

I can laugh but wow, ruined my buzz from the parts that sound Great.

I'll post in a .minute

Moving this

MIke
I'm watching AI invade my life on two fronts, architecture and my songwriting hobby.
It is a somewhat jarring.
But it is there to be faced and engaged or not.

As for your post and the information contained;
It is is excellent and deeply appreciated. Please do not withdraw. The content that you always bring is music related and attracts engagement...without being pointless, round-and-back-around arguments about whatever else. Your content is great for this site, always useful, always thought provoking.

"Baby, please don't go."

Marty

Don't go Mike the site needs your presence.

Frankly what I don't get is how your so invested I.n others work, but rarely show your own .

Even this you tried somebody else's song.

Hang around I'm not going to steal your ideas.

And as Bruce sang In Darlington county.

It's a long ride but tell me what else were you gonna do?

Dom
Let Mike do whatever he wants to do.
Don't question it and find some negative way to frame him or question his motives.
That ends up making him say eff this site.

He provides more beneficial information than anyone else here.
MAB used to also provide a lot but he appears gone. I hope that he is okay.

Other than those two, its mostly turkeys gobbling at each other.