Who's Online Now
11 members (Bill Draper, Fdemetrio, Gary E. Andrews, Gavin Sinclair, JAPOV, Sunset Poet, couchgrouch, David Gill, 2 invisible), 763 guests, and 231 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Register Today!
Welcome to the Just Plain Folks forums! You are currently viewing our forums as a Guest which gives you limited access to most of our discussions and to other features.

By joining our free community you will have access to post and respond to topics, communicate privately with our users (PM), respond to polls, upload content, and access many other features. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free; so please join our community today!
ShoutChat
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. Don't flame, hate, spam.
What's Going On
Name That Tune Challenge
by Bill Draper - 04/24/24 02:14 AM
You've Been Replaced
by Bill Draper - 04/24/24 02:06 AM
Bend Sinister
by Bill Draper - 04/24/24 02:03 AM
Foray
by Gavin Sinclair - 04/23/24 09:35 PM
YELLIN AT CLOUDS
by Bill Draper - 04/23/24 07:07 PM
Problem I foresee with ai
by Fdemetrio - 04/23/24 05:18 PM
NJ 12 Bar Blues
by Fdemetrio - 04/23/24 10:08 AM
Learn How To Fight The Night
by Fdemetrio - 04/23/24 12:41 AM
Jack and Gin
by Gary E. Andrews - 04/22/24 10:57 PM
Just Like Donald Trump's Hair
by Fdemetrio - 04/22/24 10:39 PM
Audio5onic
by Gary E. Andrews - 04/22/24 10:23 PM
Dayton Music Scene group
by Gary E. Andrews - 04/22/24 11:37 AM
Dayton Music Scene group
by Gary E. Andrews - 04/22/24 11:36 AM
Freddi Shehadi, Bennington
by Gary E. Andrews - 04/22/24 11:30 AM
Tangerinecat
by Gary E. Andrews - 04/22/24 11:17 AM
Jesus of the Internet
by Fdemetrio - 04/22/24 11:04 AM
Big Lonesome
by Gary E. Andrews - 04/22/24 09:37 AM
I Surrender to You
by Rob B. - 04/21/24 08:40 PM
Live NOW from Victoia BC John Prine Tribute
by Bill Draper - 04/21/24 01:23 PM
Wasting My Time
by Rob B. - 04/21/24 11:58 AM
Inspirational Videos Post Them Here
by Sunset Poet - 04/20/24 10:04 PM
Boneyfiddle Final Friday, Portsmouth, Ohio
by Gary E. Andrews - 04/20/24 04:30 PM
Throw Another Brick (rap)
by Fdemetrio - 04/20/24 03:22 PM
Boneyfiddle Final Friday, Portsmouth, Ohio
by Gary E. Andrews - 04/20/24 02:12 PM
More fun and aggravation
by Fdemetrio - 04/20/24 12:36 PM
Having too much fun
by Fdemetrio - 04/20/24 12:34 PM
The Software Singer
by Fdemetrio - 04/20/24 12:28 PM
Boss Tribute
by Gavin Sinclair - 04/20/24 12:18 PM
Reality wears a rubber nose
by Fdemetrio - 04/20/24 10:16 AM
Chillin Today
by Fdemetrio - 04/19/24 07:42 PM
Top Posters
Calvin 19,857
Travis david 12,264
Kevin Emmrich 10,941
Jean Bullock 10,330
Kaley Willow 10,240
Two Singers 9,649
Joice Marie 9,186
Mackie H. 9,003
glynda 8,683
Mike Dunbar 8,574
Tricia Baker 8,318
couchgrouch 8,164
Colin Ward 7,911
Corey 7,357
Vicarn 6,916
Mark Kaufman 6,589
ben willis 6,114
Lynn Orloff 5,788
Louis 5,725
Linda Sings 5,608
KimberlyinNC 5,210
Fdemetrio 5,170
Neil Cotton 4,909
Derek Hines 4,893
DonnaMarilyn 4,670
Blake Hill 4,528
Bob Cushing 4,389
Roy Cooper 4,271
Bill Osofsky 4,199
Tom Shea 4,195
Sunset Poet 4,189
Cindy Miller 4,178
TamsNumber4 4,171
MFB III 4,143
nightengale 4,096
JAPOV 3,986
E Swartz 3,985
beechnut79 3,878
Caroline 3,865
Kolstad 3,845
Dan Sullivan 3,710
Dottie 3,427
joewatt 3,411
Bill Cooper 3,279
John Hoffman 3,199
Skip Johnson 3,027
Pam Hurley 3,007
Terry G 3,005
Nigel Quin 2,891
PopTodd 2,890
Harriet Ames 2,870
MidniteBob 2,761
Nelson 2,616
Tom Tracy 2,558
Jerry Jakala 2,524
Al Alvarez 2,499
Eric Thome 2,448
Hummingbird 2,401
Stan Loh 2,263
Sam Wilson 2,246
Wendy D 2,235
Judy Hollier 2,232
Erica Ellis 2,202
maccharles 2,134
TrumanCoyote 2,096
Marty Helly 2,041
DukeWill 2,002
floyd jane 1,985
Clint Anglin 1,904
cindyrella 1,888
David Wright 1,866
Clairejeanne 1,851
Cindy LaRosa 1,824
Ronald Boyt 1,675
Iggy 1,652
Noel Downs 1,633
Rick Heenan 1,608
Cal 1,574
GocartMoz 1,559
Jack Swain 1,554
Pete Larsen 1,537
Ann Tygart 1,529
Tom Breshers 1,487
RogerS 1,481
Tom Franz 1,473
Chuck Crowe 1,441
Ralph Blight 1,440
Rick Norton 1,429
Kenneth Cade 1,429
bholt 1,411
Letha Allen 1,409
in2piano 1,404
Stan Simons 1,402
Deej56 1,385
mattbanx 1,384
Jen Shaner 1,373
Charlie Wong 1,347
KevinP 1,324
Vondelle 1,316
Tom W. 1,313
Jan Petter 1,301
scottandrew 1,294
lane1777 1,280
Gerry 1,280
DakLander 1,265
IronKnee 1,262
PeteG 1,242
Ian Ferrin 1,235
VNORTH2 1,224
Glen King 1,214
IdeaGuy 1,209
AaronAuthier 1,177
summeoyo 1,174
Diane Ewing 1,162
ckiphen 1,124
joro 1,082
BobbyJoe 1,075
S.DEE 1,040
yann 1,037
David Gill 1,035
9ne 1,035
Tony A 1,016
argo 986
peaden 984
90 dB 964
Wolvman 960
Jak Kelly 912
krtinberg 890
Drifter 886
Petra 883
RJC 845
Brenda152 840
Nadia 829
ant 798
Juan 797
TKO 784
Dayson 781
frahmes 781
bennash 773
teletwang 762
Andy K 750
Andy Kemp 749
tbryson 737
Jackie444 731
Irwin 720
3daveyO3 704
Dixie 701
Joy Boy 695
Pat Hardy 692
Knute 686
Lee Arten 678
Moosesong 668
Katziis 652
R.T.MOORE 638
quality 637
CG King 622
douglas 621
R&M 614
Mel 614
NaomiSue 601
Shandy 590
Ria 587
TAMERA64 583
qbaum 570
nitepiano 566
pRISCILLA 556
Tink2 553
musica 539
deanbell 528
RobertK 527
BonzaiWag 523
Roderic 522
BB Wilbur 513
goodfolks 499
Zeek 487
Stu 486
Steve P. 481
KathyW 462
allenb 459
MaxG 458
Philjo 454
fanito 448
trush48 448
dmk 442
Rob L 439
arealrush 437
DGR 436
avweek 435
Stephen D 433
Emmy 431
marquez 422
kit 419
Softkrome 417
kyrksongs 415
RRon 408
Laura G. 407
VNORTH 407
Debra 407
eb 406
cuebald 399
EdPerrone 399
Dannyk1 395
Hobart 395
Davyboy49 393
Smile 389
GJShades 387
Alek 386
Ezt 384
Rob B. 382
tone 380
Marla 380
Ann_F 379
iggyiggy 378
coalminer 377
java 374
ddreuter 371
spidey 371
sweetsong 370
danny 367
Jim Ryan 360
papaG 353
Z - man 350
JamesDF5 348
John K 348
Jaden 344
TheBaz 340
Steggy 339
leif 339
tonedeaf 336
rickwork 334
Eddie Ray 332
Johnboy 328
Bob Lever 328
Helicon1 327
lucian 326
Muskie 321
kc 319
Z. Mulls 318
ptondreau 313
ONOFFON 312
Chris B. 310
trush 304
ed323 297
Ellen M 294
markus-ky 293
lizzorn 291
nicnac49 290
Char 286
ktunes 285
Top Likes Received
JAPOV 87
VNORTH2 45
bennash 38
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,002
Likes: 2
D
Top 200 Poster
OP Offline
Top 200 Poster
D
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,002
Likes: 2
I have continuing questions about fair use but my main question pertains to getting 'permission' for new songs you write that contain, for instance, maybe a title, maybe a phrase, maybe even two complete lines (and the melody for those two lines) from another song. I have one particular song that has all of the above. It's kind of a tribute song to other artists. If you decide that you would prefer that the copyright holder(s) grant 'permission,' whatever that is, who would you contact? What if the writer is dead? And his only known (direct) heir, a son, is dead? How do you determine who to contact? Without going to the courthouse and looking for a will or probate, how do you know who owns the copyright? I don't even know if they put that kind of thing in a will/probate. Is copyright ownership listed online with an agency or the copyright office?

Then, what if they don't answer? What if they refuse? Any thoughts on this? Then again, maybe all of this is a non-issue because I am a nobody but what IF you wrote a song that gained traction in the world of music and you have NOT gotten permission? This particular song in question has references to many artists and getting permission would be kinda over the top burdensome; perhaps being concerned about using a song title is a non-issue, but using two complete lines from another song and the melody... I am fuzzy on that one, whether you need 'permission.' It seems the more potentially 'necessary.'

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,427
Likes: 16
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,427
Likes: 16
Hi,

For the most part, it's not really something to worry about. Most songs simply don't get that much attention. In todays marketplace it is getting more and more common for people to use references in every concievable way, from product mentions, artist and song mentions, and in the case of many many rap records, sampling the exact tracks used in many established recordings. So the entire "copyright issues" are murkier than they have ever been before.

Personally, to avoid a lot of potential problems, I never do the EXACT wordings of songs, or artists, yet do a "tribute to them." On a recent song that referenced Merle Haggard, instead of using the title "MAMA TRIED" I used it in context with the song, 'Mama sang every evening, right about supper time, top of her lungs and out of tune, but Lord, DID MAMA TRY." Using veiled references, yet having the same meaning, yet not EXACTLY the same. That avoids potential problems. Same with musical notation. There are ways to reference the song without having direct references, and that can eliminate any problems you might have.

For the most part, you probably would not have to worry unless it got to higher level stages. There are many stages to songs that people go through. If you were having an artist interested in the song, that usually comes through their management or publishers (most artists today are writers as well) so they might "head something off at the pass" before it ever turned into something. Having a lot of artists or song mentions, could either nullify each other or create more problems. You'd sort of have to take that on, issue by issue.

Most of the time, it is all fairly harmless, and you would never even hear of it unless it gets in a position to make money, then you might get "cease and desist orders" from the publishers or decendents of the artists. The Marvin Gaye family seems to make a living suing anyone who offers an "homage" to their famous son. Ed Sheeren just went through and extended trial on one of his songs. He was vindicated, but I'm sure spent tens of thousands of dollars defending himself and years in the press with something hanging over his head.

In cases like rock star Kid Rock, who had a song called "SINGING SWEET HOME ALABAMA ALL SUMMER LONG", which exactly replicated the song SWEET HOME ALABAMA, by Lynyrd Skynyrd, and had direct signature licks from the song "WHEREWOLVES OF LONDON" by Warren Zevon, Kid Rock, sought and got their permission first, then ADDED the four writers, Gary Rossington, Ronnie Van Zant and Ed King, from Skynyrd, and Zevon's family, from Wherewolves" and made them a part of the song from the onset. One big star paying homage to More of his heroes.

I think you'll find your own way. I'd do it and then see if someone contacts you. For the most part, with billions of songs on the Internet, it's doubtful if you would ever have any issues to deal with. Most of all our songs, rarely go much past our friends, fans and families, and very few artists or writers are going to trouble with spending money to shut down something that is not generating any money. But some internt platforms would not post things that are not cleared, so if that were to happen you would probably have to track down the writers and publishers on each specific song you are talking about. And that could get weird. You are just going to have to think about the various ramifications and then go with your gut.

That's my particular take. There are people who will go through a lot of hoops on songs. That's not me. I have a lot of songs, so if I ran into trouble, I'd just go to something else. A lot of it depends on how invested you are in the song.

MAB

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 692
Likes: 1
Top 500 Poster
Offline
Top 500 Poster
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 692
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by DukeWill
I have continuing questions about fair use but my main question pertains to getting 'permission' for new songs you write that contain, for instance, maybe a title, maybe a phrase, maybe even two complete lines (and the melody for those two lines) from another song. I have one particular song that has all of the above. It's kind of a tribute song to other artists. If you decide that you would prefer that the copyright holder(s) grant 'permission,' whatever that is, who would you contact? What if the writer is dead? And his only known (direct) heir, a son, is dead? How do you determine who to contact? Without going to the courthouse and looking for a will or probate, how do you know who owns the copyright? I don't even know if they put that kind of thing in a will/probate. Is copyright ownership listed online with an agency or the copyright office?

Then, what if they don't answer? What if they refuse? Any thoughts on this? Then again, maybe all of this is a non-issue because I am a nobody but what IF you wrote a song that gained traction in the world of music and you have NOT gotten permission? This particular song in question has references to many artists and getting permission would be kinda over the top burdensome; perhaps being concerned about using a song title is a non-issue, but using two complete lines from another song and the melody... I am fuzzy on that one, whether you need 'permission.' It seems the more potentially 'necessary.'


It doesn't really depend on whether you are a 'nobody', it depends on whether you 'release' (CD for sale, download, with bar code, etc) your song. That's when you need permission......IF......

If you are using two complete lines, same chords, same lyrics, same notes, you'll definitely need permission from the copyright owner (probably a publisher) to create what is called a 'derivative work' and your copyright will include them in the derivative work and 'by permission from the claimant' in the appropriate line, etc. You can find the copyright owner available printed on the CD, sheet music, or you an look it up at copyright.gov or probably through ASCAP or BMI.

So....

IF you are composing the song 'for sale, distribution, download' etc submitted to any of the platforms, Itunes, Amazon, or are seeking publishing deals, etc., DEFINITELY YES. If the copyright owner refuses, you can't use it. My guess is that they will refuse. I know I would (unless the derivative version is a clear cut blockbuster, as was Leo Sayer's "When i need You" which lifted a line from Leonard cohen's 'Famous Blue Raincoat" see https://allanshowalter.com/2020/10/...rom-leonard-cohens-famous-blue-raincoat/). If you are seeking publishing deals (boutique publishers for TV and film), I doubt they will even give you a contract because of the clearance issues, even if you had permission secured in writing.

But...

If you are just messin' around, put it on bandcamp, not for sale, just to show off to friends, performing in clubs, I wouldn't worry about it unless someone contacts you.

IF you upload it to youtube, you will probably have a copyright challenge by the owners of the copyright. but, then again, maybe not since it's your recording, not there's.

As always, on legal matters, consulting an attorney is the best advice anyone can give you, and to not rely on some dude you don't know on the internet. smile

Last edited by Pat Hardy; 06/12/23 03:29 PM.

Link Copied to Clipboard
Support Just Plain Folks

We would like to keep the membership in Just Plain Folks FREE! Your donation helps support the many programs we offer including Road Trips and the Music Awards.


Newest Members
chriscastle, yasir252, cathennashira, Samwise, HappySousa
21,470 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums117
Topics125,775
Posts1,161,444
Members21,470
Most Online37,523
Jan 25th, 2020
Just Plain Quotes
"Sharing in your success is the payback to those who shared in your failure." -Brian Austin Whitney
Today's Birthdays
There are no members with birthdays on this day.
Popular Topics(Views)
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5