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Paul McCartney, with Producer Rick Rubin, in the new Hulu documentary on The Beatles. "We were writing Songs that were memorable, because we had to remember them."
I think more people can relate to the Lyric than the Melody, and more to the Prosody of Lyric AND Melody, than to the difficulty of execution of the instruments, the 'qualities' of Production, anything else. The words make the Songs 'memorable', 'remember-able'. The Rhythm and Rhyme, the Pitch of the Notes in Melody, the Timbre of the voice(s). And, of course, you want to write a Song YOU can remember how to sing. The new documentary might be full of insights, and therefore well worth watching.
There will always be another song to be written. Someone will write it. Why not you? www.garyeandrews.com
I dont think so Gary. I love lyrics, particularly ones that are not poems, and tell me something. I may not agree with the idea, but it inspires thought.
But if you turned on the radio, and listened to any hits from 60's 70's 80's and now, you wont know the words to them. They are not on the radio cause of the words.
I think the hook matters most, if you got a good lyrical hook "Paperback writer" "Day Tripper" "Revolution" Its enough, people need that refrain to go back to. But unless you are a real Beatles fan you dont know all the words to paperback writer....
Same thing with any song on the radio... Ive heard Smoke OnThe Water a thousand times, and I STILL dont know the lyrics.
To really hear and get all the lyrics, especially as they unravel in a 3 minute song, you need to sit there with a lyric sheet and sing along. They used to include lyrics with the record.
But make no mistake, the melody and music, and vocals matter way more than the lyrics...other than the lyrical hook . You need that catch phrase.
The stones, I cant even understand one thing they sing. It cant be the lyrics, but they do add to it.
Read Little Stevens Crisis in Craft speech. He speaks of this subject, Lyrics matter but not without the music.
You learn greatness from greatness. Nobody is a born great performer, nobody is born a great songwriter. The Beatles were a club and bar band for five years, and then continued playing covers for five albums, the Stones did about three years and their first five albums. All of a sudden, we think we’re better than them?
Another nefarious infection regarding modern songwriting is the auteur theory, which means the person singing has to be the person writing or else it’s irrelevant. This became dominant as rock n roll became the art form of rock. Beginning in 1965, it was the year the Beatles, the Stones, the Byrds and Bob Dylan influenced each other right into a new art form. Suddenly rock was personal.
It was important, and an industry of journalists sprang up to explain it to us. And that was, and is, great, except an inaccurate balance was created between the post-art-form rock and the pre-art-form rock, keeping in mind that the art-form rock was only the last quarter of the renaissance.
It was born in the folk-rock era, continued through psychedelic, country-rock, and into hard rock and the singer-songwriter era, where an inaccurate emphasis on the importance of the self-contained artist has led to the ocean of mediocrity we’re drowning in today.
Journalists work in words, they love words, they are words, so it’s perfectly understandable they labor under the misconception that lyrics are the most important part of the song. They are not and let’s keep in mind, there are of course, major journalist exceptions. The two best rock n roll books are after all Nick Tosches’ “Hellfire,” the Jerry Lee Lewis story, and Dave Marsh’s “Louie Louie,” both about pre-art-form rock and, don’t get me wrong, great lyrics make a song better. I made five political albums and spent months on the lyrics. Just don’t think that’s why people are coming to see your band. Because that is not enough reason. Bob Dylan is the greatest lyric writer that will ever live, but if he wasn’t a great singer and wasn’t able to write, or in the early days steal, great melodies, he’d still be in the Village at Cafe Wha.
The problem with this imbalance is that singers who don’t write or write about the correct subjects, aren’t taken seriously. And it’s true, in spite of Elvis and Sinatra.
The 15 years of pre-art-form lyrics may not seem as important or meaningful in a social and political way, but as a 13-year-old hearing the super sexy Judy Craig and the Chiffons sing Ellie Greenwich and Jeff Barry’s “I Have a Boyfriend,” don’t tell me that wasn’t important. More than anything else in the world, I wanted to be that boyfriend. I still do. That was my “Blowing in the Wind,” my “Day in the Life,” or “Sympathy for the Devil,” absolutely. If you wanna write, then learn how to do it.
As one of the great song publishers, like Lance Freed, who were always encouraging young songwriters to co-write with older ones, said, just like it’s important to perform with a purpose, it is equally important to write with a purpose. Whether that purpose is to express your most personal anguish or to simply have a hit record, if you’re gonna do it, do it right.
"Hotel California" was still playing as I arrived at the gas station. I sat there 'til it was over. The vocal enunciation is excellent. The tale with its esoteric air gets told, the words 'sent' so they can be 'received', and thought provoking even if they leave you pondering just what went on.
There will always be another song to be written. Someone will write it. Why not you? www.garyeandrews.com
But it might just be forgettable to you, there was a reason why you heard it in the first place.
Hotel California is an extraordinary song, performed by extraordinary performers and vocalists, recorded and produced by extraordinary engineers and producers.
It's a very interesting lyric but nobody really knows what it means. And it also has the benefit of being heard THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS times, kids know the song, even moreso than Stairway to Heaven, they know that song,
Its interesting and has some great lines.... and hooks the listener in so many ways.
But, there is only one Hotel California, even The Eagles couldnt write another. You cant use one of the greatest songs ever, as a standard up against song.
And most people dont know the lyrics, only some key lines like "we havent had that kind of spirit here since 1969" or you can check out anytime you like but you can never leave... is one of the most famous line from a song ever.
I think its a great lyric but some may argue it doesnt make sense or have any meaning.
Regardless, without those majestic guitar pickings, raspy awesome Henley vocals and harmonies, unreal guitar solo at the end, its not going to stand on the lyric itself.
With no lyrics available, most people would miss most of the lyrics. in karoke, and they have heard it more than any other song ever.
Well, just damn Dom! I think you just made a very valid point!
If neither "Stairway" or "Hotel California" had ever been recorded, how critical of the lyrics do you believe Gary (or anyone else) would be if some nobody just randomly posted them here?
When I write the first Line is of strategic importance. It's the Line that suggests a story I want to hear more about.
"On a dark desert highway, cool wind in my hair, warm smell of colitas, rising up through the air." That's an incomplete sentence, but The Eagles had this southwest, desert 'persona' going with their other Songs, and "Hotel" fit right in. I was hooked, and wanted to hear the rest of the story.
"There's a lady who's sure, all that glitters is (pure?), and she's buying a Stairway To Heaven." Complete sentence. And the poetry of it, Rhythm and Rhyme, and the idea of someone buying a stairway to heaven, hooked my interest.
I hear too many recordings where the Lyric is not audible, buried in the mix, enunciated poorly, and the first Line doesn't get through my ear in a recognizable form. If I get a word or two they're ineffectual in 'Hook Factor'. For want of the words the Line fails. For want of the Line the Stanza fails. For want of the Stanza the Song fails. The Chorus can't make sense of the Verse, if I can understand the Chorus at all, because I didn't 'get' the Verse.
Folks try to crowd words into a space in time, smearing them over the beat, the Rhythm, and don't 'hit' the beat with Rhyme. It doesn't work. Failing to 'Hook' my interest I drift off to other thoughts, stop paying attention, and notice when the Song ends that I don't know anything about the Song that just played in my ears, or very little. THE Hook, the title Line, might be 'memorable', and retained, but the overall appeal isn't there. I'm generally not interested in hearing the Song again, and certainly not willing to put my money in the jukebox, or to buy a hard copy to own and listen to, or download to enable listening any time I 'want'. I don't 'want'.
"Hotel California", July 14, 2021, was still a pleasure to listen to. Listen to the Lyric, and observe the guitar work, the percussion. This is a hell of a composition. When people cite the length of these two particular Songs as justification for the length of their own compositions, I say, "Yeah! Write a Song like that and you can probably get it played." Just a long Song that goes on without good poetry, or a good storyline, isn't likely to work. The Leadership Decision-Makers in radio and other industry offices, Gatekeepers, aren't likely to be Hooked and think it can make them money. If it doesn't Hook them they will probably doubt it will Hook an audience.
As a Song-Writer YOU are the first listener. You should be Hooked the same way you hope others will be. But we're often Hooked by the feel of the 'emoting' as we sing a Lyric, entertaining for us, but without our critical evaluation of whether the Lyric and Melody have 'Hook Factor' for other listeners. Again, that first Line; does it suggest a story I want to hear more of? Or is it bland, obscure, uninteresting in Lyrical content, Rhythmic appeal, and supported with continuity of Lyrical coherence, Rhyme, and arrangement (instrumental accompaniment)? If I can't understand the words, I'm drifting away to think about the girl with the twinkle in her...whatever she's got twinkling. I'll notice when the Song ends, but they lost me, either from the get-go, or somewhere along the way. I came 'Un-Hooked'.
I don't have to know what the writer intended in a Lyric. If I can conceive something it works. "Hotel California" comes across as some nightmare, like an arrival in a 'hell' of his own making. The Singer-Character becomes obvious, a pronoun, 'I', appearing in Lines, so we get a sense of this First-Person story-teller, telling what's happening, somewhat in real time, as it happens. Very engaging of the imagination.
Yeah. Write a Song like that.
The Song, the Lyrical story, sung, communicated, can give you a Structure upon which you can build the Melody to which it is sung, and the instrumentation, the Production to support it, any way you want. Tempo, key, nuances, fills, percussion, harmony vocals, can all work from that basic Structure of the Lyric.
Even an instrumental composition can benefit from Structure. Lyrical Verses are Musical Movements. They begin, move through, 'passage', and end. They Repeat, Repetition supplying Structure. A listener can relate to Structure, or be lost without it, listening to a meandering composition that doesn't Repeat.
They Change, change supplying renewal of 'Hook-Factor', a refreshing of listener interest, avoiding monotony of 'Too Much' Repetition. It's an elusive concept of 'Enough', versus 'Not Enough' and 'Too Much'. Change is accomplished by the Chorus, or Chorus Refrain, or by a Bridge. If you analyze Songs you think 'do it right' you'll probably be able to perceive Structure, Repetition, Change, and the timing of them. Had they Repeated, perhaps a third time, without Change after the second Repeat, you might have drifted off to other thoughts, and only noticed when the Song ended that you weren't 'listening', weren't entertained. It was just background noise. If, after a second Repeat, they Changed, with a Chorus or Bridge, renewing your interest, you might have been attentive when they found a third Lyrical Verse, third Repeat of a Musical Movement, and welcomed hearing it again, because you 'learned' it and liked it the first two times. You can also analyze Songs you think 'don't do it right'. Why don't you like that Song?
The things you learn analyzing Songs you don't like and do like should manifest in your own compositions, being aware of 'Enough' Repetition, or 'Not Enough', or 'Enough' Change, or 'Not Enough', or 'Too Much'. Not Enough Repetition, no Structure to relate to, Too Much Change. Too Much Repetition, monotonous, lets me come Un-Hooked.
Enough coherence of ideas to tell an interesting Lyrical story, or Not Enough, or Too Much. You decide. The 'Enough' concept can apply to volume, percussion, every element of the sound, every element of the composition.
If you're not a critical listener of your own Songs you're probably not a critical listener of other peoples' either. Tastes vary. A person's reasons for liking or disliking a piece of music may have criteria far different from your own. They 'buy' some new music and want to share it with you. They 'like' it. You don't. It was worth their money to them. Your money stays in your pocket. Your own compositions and recordings have the same potential to earn money, for all the reasons people buy music. Or, they may not please 'Enough' people to get shared and promoted and sell.
Keep exploring. The possibilities are endless. Despite thousands of years of Song-Writing we have not exhausted the possibilities. Someone will write a new Song and masses of people will agree that it is a good Song. It might become a classic. If you're studious, and an explorer, you could be that Song-Writer.
There will always be another song to be written. Someone will write it. Why not you? www.garyeandrews.com
There's actually a lot of explanations of "HOTEL CALIFORNIA" from the writers on YOU TUBE. Was basically about the music business madness of the 70's and the drug fueled world of rock stars and Hollywood. That is how they intended it, because that is what they were living at the time. But it can also be interpreted literally as a "Twilight Zone" type episode of someone who gets trapped into a literal weird hotel in the middle of nowhere, like thousands of horror movies have portrayed. Kind of like a lot of rock songs, it means what you want it to mean.
I agree Japov, I think if somebody had posted the lyrics to Hotel Cali here, being an unknown, Gary wouldnt even have commented.
If I saw it, id say "Wow this guy is very poetic, this is better than any lyrics ive ever seen on a forum" im pretty sure id say that, but then once im done reading it, it's like so what? They are just words. When I read poetry in English class, it could be the greatest poem ever written, it's not going to do much for me, except say... me saying "gee this guy is good" lol.
But most songs, most of The Beatles songs, iy you post the lyrics to them, it's not going to draw much attention. Only if you knew Macca was posting it himself... lol THEN, youd have people coming out of the woodwork telling him how great it is.
Star power matters. Hotel Cali as great as it is, if not commercially available as it is, say, it's just some guy on soundclick, would not make Gary write a sermon about. I think wed all be impressed, but it would end up forgotten and living in infamy on soundclick forever.
There's an expression "Nothing attracts a crowd, like a crowd"
And you have to admit that one of the reasons Hotel Cali is so legendary, is because of exposure, and hey "this is The Eagles" "Hey this is on the radio, all day long"
If I posted the same song , particulary not having the best recording, not having the best perfomances, im sured id get some kudos, but nothing like that.
Yeah Marc, ive heard many different interpretations, i've even heard Henley tell different versions of what it meant himself.
Generally, in songwriting, as a guy trying to pitch to another artist, Hotel Cali could have been passed up, especially without the Eagles performing it.
Then there's the whole "Country v/s Rock" thing... Both Gary and Marc do tend to lean more towards country, and assume that most everyone else does too lol. Country is definitely more about clear, casual, conversational storytelling.
At least it used to be, i dont know if modern country is anything more than pop with a banjo these days.
Yeah, I dont know about Marc, Marc is more country than anything else, but he's not all or nothing.
More than genre i think it's age.. lol
Everybody loves the Beatles, country or not (The WHO were my Beatles) but The kids today could give one Shizzle about The Beatles.
They like Covers of Beatle songs done by modern artists, but not the Beatles themselves.
I played some Beatles to my nephew when he was about 12.... He says "what the heck is that" They sound like Austin Powers lol
And the sound is so archaic, sound really old to them. I gues its how I felt listening to Hank WIlliams when my dad had him on. Im like What? What in the hell is this crap...lol" Dad please turn it off, but on it stayed. I appreciate him now but not as a kid in the suburbs. "My son calls another man daddy".... Im like what a weird dude lol
But yeah Gary likes old music, and it shows. Hell never give anything new a try.
We all do, Ill never find a new band to like as much as I like The Who. When you're younger you are more interested. Its that simple.
I think once you start playing music or writing, you never hear music the same way again.
I remember a time never commenting on the lyrics of a song, they were just there. You either liked the song or you didnt.
But this being a musician stuff gets in the way... I think anyway
Birth year... around the time of the moon landing, Tommy, and Woodstock
I didnt discover the Who until after Keith Moon had died and they were playing with Kenny Jones.
Im an 80's Kid who was just discovering The Who, Stones, Beatles then, after all of them had already peaked.
Think I knew one song My Generation that I heard all the time on the radio, I thought it was the most fun song I had ever heard, couldnt wait for it to come on, and it used to get tons of radio play.
And if not for the Who, i doubt id be on this forum. See how lucky you are they came around?
Springsteen came later on, discovered him late too. Media just wasn't what it is then, radio was the only place to hear music, which was limited. MTV changed that.
I notice that Fdemetrio ends up in arguments and insults on nearly every post he comments on. On this thread he opens with,
"I dont think so Gary."
He stays fairly rational if scarcely relevant for a while. Then he begins to talk about me instead of the subject at hand.
"I think if somebody had posted the lyrics to Hotel Cali here, being an unknown, Gary wouldnt even have commented."
I started this thread. Why is he talking about me instead of to me?
Then, "a sermon". "Hotel Cali as great as it is, if not commercially available as it is, say, it's just some guy on soundclick, would not make Gary write a sermon about."
I think calling my comment "a sermon" was a denigration of everything in a lengthy essay. Nothing in all those words had any merit in Fdemetrio's opinion, and he wasn't worried about 'hurting my feelings' or 'dissing' me, personally. He was comfortable insulting me, and is with others.
Finally,
"But yeah Gary likes old music, and it shows. Hell never give anything new a try."
Where did that come from? Again, totally off the topic under discussion, and a personal 'evaluation' of me.
I also hear Fdemetrio often goes back and edits his insults out, apparently realizing too late that such behavior is inappropriate. So I wanted to copy them here for posterity. When visitors see this kind of behavior I think they're turned off, afraid to post and receive the same insulting treatment. I wanted to document this progression of personal references to 'Gary' that are very off-topic, something more reflective of Fdemetrio's character than anything relevant to the topic or me. I caution Members that indulging in your personal discomfort with life by being uncivil toward other Members is not appropriate behavior. If you don't want to talk about a matter others are discussing, move on. If you can't say something constructive, move on. If you don't comprehend rational discussion and civil exchange, move on. I've avoided commenting on any thread Fdemetrio starts, as they typically deteriorate rapidly into his indulgence in such personal conflict. This isn't even Strike One. I remember thinking not to comment on this one further after I saw his first comment. The undesirably contentious 'feel' was already there from the get-go. I didn't want to let him 'take us there'. But he did.
There will always be another song to be written. Someone will write it. Why not you? www.garyeandrews.com
I didnt insult you Gary, and I actually like you. I think you're great for the site, and one of the few people who talk about the craft of songwriting. I didnt delete anything about you here. If anything JAPOV insulted you, linking you with Marc as country farts who think the lyrics matter. I said it was probably more about age.
I just didnt agree with everything you said although I agree with Hotel Cali being an unworldly song.
You'd know it if I insulted you, and you cant go by other threads. People badger and try to antagonize me, cause they are bored, and need something to do with themselves. Im happy to oblige, although id prefer they work on music.
Never insulted you, We need more of what you offer.
Edit: Sermon, may have been a crass word, but you ignored what i said, went right over it, as if my view was unimportant, only yours.
Thats being a tad sensitive. I get worse than that on a daily basis.
Gary did you read the comment right below the one you singled out?
"But yeah Gary likes old music, and it shows. Hell never give anything new a try. We all do, Ill never find a new band to like as much as I like The Who. When you're younger you are more interested. Its that simple."
WE ALL DO. Where did that come from? I once posted a video of Bono's son playing in a pop band, the kid was 17, and you wrote a book as to why you didnt like it. They are very popular, and doing very well. You were breaking down the lyrics, saying why you didnt like it, fine, but the public thought differently.
It's age, im guilty too, but i dont dislike something just cause it's new.
But, sorry if it insulted you, it wasnt meant to be.
Japov> Then there's the whole "Country v/s Rock" thing... Both Gary and Marc do tend to lean more towards country, and assume that most everyone else does too lol. Country is definitely more about clear, casual, conversational storytelling.
Man if you (collective you) can't remember the hooky songs of the 60s and seventies you were not listening to am radio
Heavy rotation of hits meant you heard a song several times a day
Songs and lyrics were burned into the mind
I'm in my mid 60s now and I still remember lots of songs and lyrics...at least choruses) from those days ...it was the eightees when I started "tuning out" because of changing radio habits...still some awesome songs. Tell me you don't know at least some of the the words to say Come On Eileen (early 80s or) REM Losing My Religion (early 90s)
Now mind you, I always loved a good lyric, and started to write "rhymes" (too poor to cal it poetry) early on...maybe grade 5
So perhaps I am an outlier...dunno.
And Hotel California...what a song...by a group in their prime. I think ANYONE who would have posted that lyric back then as an unknown would have been called an awesome writer
Have a drink on me tonight Tony
If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop
Interesting looking back over a year at these posts. I've seen/heard many arguments over the years about "what is more important to song, lyrics or melody.........or which is the foundation. "Generalizing," I would say melody. Lay listeners turning a radio dial stop when the music moves their spirit. They can't make a judgment on a phrase quickly, thus the song will not be heard without the melody capturing the potential listener. Music is used for advertising jingles for the reason folks remember good or interesting melody--Thus, IMO, I believe the melody sets a foundation of "most" songs.
That is not to say that lyrics aren't importance or haven't significant value! - but they become important "after" a melody has pulled them into the song and surely can become as important with some songs or - never really important. NO question there are some very popular songs that have below average lyrics yet will remain classics in their genre. But melody is the train and lyrics are the passengers - IMO.
Having said this, I have a great friend who performs Chapin music primarily because he loves the lyrics, but he is under the musician/songwriter umbrella and has developed a bias for lyrics as for "him" lyrics are more important. I'm sure serious music fans/listeners will also fall under this same umbrella as maybe Gary Andrews feels the same--I admire this and respect this point of view--but FDY is correct IMO as his stated opinion above.
I can't imagine (me) writing a song starting with lyrics first--many do and that's great. But lyrics come better to me after I've found melody to assign them to which IMO sets makes it easier to "know" much more quickly what prosody phrasing will or will not work. But I think songwriters have more difficulty being just being subjective as lay music listeners because they "hear" individual tracks too independently to just hear the song for just a song...........Maybe that's why some of us prefer listening to "oldies" as those songs we hear more subjectively as they are imprinted in our brain before we became so critical in our listening.
So perhaps even if you took a quiz on what's more important lyrics or melody with any focus group--I think the results would be slighted toward lyrics - even with serious listeners who are "fans" of select music performing artists--but truthfully, I still believe "melody is the train, and lyrics are the passengers." After you board the train........then, you get to know the passengers!
A train without paying passengers will soon fade away. I believe the genre determines which is the most important. In country and Gospel music the message is the most important component, in rock the music is important, the beat is what you dance to. When you can marry words and melody in equal greatness, then you can have a hit that appeals to all listeners in multiply genres.
Listening to Neil Young today ("After The Goldrush"), who has had unqualified success with his Song-Writing, I realized how 'Rhymey' some of them are, without clear meaning. They work on Melody and Structure, and the 'persona' of the Singer-Character he creates in them, and the arrangement (instrumental accompaniment). Some of Bob Dylan's are that way too. "My Golden Loom" comes to mind. Their success is unquestionable, but close analysis reveals how they get around what I would perceive as flawed Structures and lack of Lyrical coherence.
Last edited by Gary E. Andrews; 07/19/2204:49 AM. Reason: Clarifying
There will always be another song to be written. Someone will write it. Why not you? www.garyeandrews.com
Something to keep in mind of songs, and artists that came out of the mid, to late 1960's, the drug culture and influences were a huge part of that era. (1967-beyond) Where the artists/writers, as well as listeners were involved in a lot of drugs. So "sitting around the bong pipe, or dropping acid, were really very normal. This led to the "open to interpretation of the moment" structures and songs. You could have lilting poetry that in the cold light of day, really makes no sense at all. like a modern art painting (influenced by substances as well) it means whatever you want it to mean.
Carrying forward, when you see the writing styles of the DYLANS, the NEIL YOUNG's and others, their fame from early works, carried forward and people view them completely differently. Whereas it's much different in today's 15 second attention span, you don't have that fame, that attention, that luxury of time and fans that aborbed every word you say. Today, you are lucky to keep anyone off their phone for 15 seconds to listen to anything. I guess in some ways,you can again, just write whatever you want however you want it because most likely you are probably going to be the only audience for your music. It doesn't make it any easier to listen to, but does give you something in the background while you are involved in other things.
I think it was all memorable back in the day because it was all new... Now, not only has it all been done, anybody can do it. Even a pissed-off metal head Christian! LOL
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