JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Music Business A Little Slow...

Does anyone have a direct contact for John Schick? I hope he is doing well. Let's hunt him down!

You Can PM him here and he will be notified of the PM on his regular e-mail.

He has been found!

How many songs are written / recorded every week? In the US alone - how many. Thousands ----- It is pretty easy to see that the odds are not very favorable. I enjoy listening to new artists and songs on Amazon Prime Music ---- So many each week and some are pretty good. Few will ever get much attention.

Justice has had over two million plays of her songs on streaming services - which sounds pretty good, but only to someone who does not know much about the music industry. At least it is something that she enjoys knowing and we do get a small check every few months from CDBaby for the streams (note O think that CD Baby does not sell CD's anymore).

All in all though, doing some music production in a very small way, still provides satisfaction but certainly no meaningful money. It is nice to see that some like a couple posters in this thread are successful ------ It is all relative.

Great to hear that Justice is still singing, recording, etc.

Best, John

Thanks John ----- She has been very sick and has been unable to perform for a few years but has recorded a couple songs. I appreciate you remembering her.

Sorry to hear of her illness Tom. Sending my thoughts & prayers to Justice...

John

Tom,

I am sorry to hear about Justice. And 2 million listens is far more than most people ever get near in the history of the world. The money may be small, but that is a big accomplishment nonetheless. I hope she is able to get back to enjoying making music, I think that is the most important part in the first place. So few seem to realize that sadly.

Brian

[quote=Tom Shea]"How many songs are written / recorded every week? In the US alone - how many. Thousands ----- It is pretty easy to see that the odds are not very favorable. I enjoy listening to new artists and songs on Amazon Prime Music ---- So many each week and some are pretty good. Few will ever get much attention. "


Hello everyone.
Welcome back Brian. Looks like your EUROPEAN touring has done well. Hope your health is holding up. Great to see you and thanks for getting the site back up and running. I always like referring this site to newer people I come into contact with. Don't know if they will show up, but its always nice to have a place to send them. Please never hesitate to let me know if I can ever do anything to help you.

A lot being talked over here and good to see many familiar faces and names. I usually go back and check things out and only comment on things I have personal knowledge of. Tom had asked about "how many songs are written/recorded every week?" The numbers I have seen are something like "Facebook alone uploads around 100,000 songs and videos an hour." If you add in SPOTIFY, TIK TOK (the new 15 second song model) Instagram, Twitter, etc. and you can see how they come up with rough figures of millions a day. When you add in older songs, endless catelogues, etc and you have about a BILLION songs a month, that find their way onto the World Wide Web.

That's why whenever someone says "What if all songwriters 'went on strike' and not put anything up?" It would never work, because number one there are enough songs artists, videos, etc. out there right now to last hundreds of lifetimes. So we could all stop now, and it wouldn't make a dimes bit of difference. The second is because most people would never do it. "Those other people want to stop? Fine. Less competition for me."
Music or art is a highly individulalized edeavor. People are not going to put their own creative works on hold because someone else tells them to. That is what the Internet provides. Don't like the way things are? Don't participate. No one forces you to.

There is endless music out there. Endless categories. Endless platforms. The cat got out of the bag years ago, and is never going to be put back together. Platforms try to (or say 'they try to") address the situation by claiming they are paying more and more, of course what they are paying is less and less. But the bottom line lays with the end line consumer. Most people simply don't believe in paying for music. Like the days of AM and FM radio, "it is free, and out there? Why pay for anything you can get for free?"
That is the question.

I've read articles and talked to people that say that most people under the age of 25 couldn't care less about music unless it is in the background of some computer or video game they play. These are the same people that don't want to OWN anything. They don't want to own houses, have no interest in actual CAREERS as much as just a temporary job. It's a very temporary world.

Andy Warhol was right, where he said "in the future, everyone will be famous for 15 minutes." I think he missed the time frame.
Today everyone is famous for FIFTEEN SECONDS. Isn't it interesting that is the model Tik Tok is setting. 15 second attention span.

I'm just as guilty as anyone. As I sit and write this, I have news going on the television, talk radio in the background, answering emails and setting up for my appointment coming in about an hour, forwarding information to the client and her parents of things to do today, before we get together and work tomorrow. AND in the middle of that, I had to go change out batteries in a smoke detector, after getting a half dozen angry texts from my girlfriend in her office in the other end of the house, screaming about the smoke detector. LOL! I'd say "DISTRACTED SHORT ATTENTION SPANS" is a vast understatement.

Where does it go? Geeze, I have no idea. I just deal with what I can deal with day by day. But I try to encourage people to focus on the things they CAN DO and not get too caught up in what they CAN'T DO. We all have goals and ideas, and I wish we all could find ways to be renumerated for being ourselves.

It's good to see everyone and I hope you are all navigating the world successfully. Stay safe and as always, if anyone needs help I can provide, I'm a PM away. And if you want my comments on anything, like Beatle Juice, say my name three times. I'll show up. LOL!

Have a good day.
MAB

Hi Marc, good to see you!
I know we have had our arguments in the past, and I'm certainly guilty of provoking you on occasion lol... But seriously, NOT FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT, but shouldn't the current political state of the world be taken into account? You can't ignore that the "consumers" populate the Earth, and that entire population is the target market. Every twenty-something with a guitar wants to be "WORLD WIDE" lol. However, the entire population today is politically "split", and the political pendulum is swinging back to the right FAST! So, could it be... could it POSSIBLY be... that the reason the music business is so slow is because;
1- At least half the population doesn't TRUST the media anymore and that's why they have no time for it.
2- The media only caters to a 6th grade intellect anyway.
3- Half the population is fed-up, sick-n-tired, and will no longer tolerate the current woke, all inclusive, asexual, politically correct media industry standard that has played a major part in screwing everything up to begin with.

Could it be?

Hey Marc! Wow, a billion songs a month? That means 500 million songwriters have to finish a minimum of two songs a month. Sorry, just trying to wrap my head around a billion songs a month – ha, ha.

Well, yes, endless music out in Cyber Land. Although, 99% (just a guesstimate) follows a tried-and-true writing method, i.e., following the closest related chords and predictable melodies (little dissonance or deviations from the diatonic Major/ Minor scales). So, I imagine that there is very little new and / or interesting songs out there. Please, Cyber songwriters, break from the standard chord progressions.

I’ve heard many times, musicians saying there is nothing new to compose. I disagree, there is infinite possibilities outside of the predictable. 12 tones and their octaves have limitless possibilities. Possibilities that have been scarcely explored. Of course, that’s easy for an instrumental composer to say. Songwriters have to come up with new lyrical ideas. – as well as new melodies. And yes, today’s attention span could use some remodeling. Probably only a handful of subjects that would garner attention from the Cyber audience, for more than 10 seconds.

Okay, I had my say. Now I can go take my daily afternoon nap.

Best, John

Really John? You seriously expect some Nashville numbers, chicken pickin', country bumpkin to shoot for a Cadd9/E on a Fender Strat with a swing beat in the key of D#m? Lol, consider your audience here John...

No, I don't expect it Japov.

John:)

Hey folks,

John, those numbers are essentially numbers BMI, ASCAP and SESAC have tossed around for a few years. It is not all songs. There are videos, streaming services. and millions upon millions of people every minute or every day posting things to social networking sites. You also have to keep in mind, this includes hundreds of thousands of songs that have been around for years, even decades. Every publishing company have thousands in their catalogs and TIK TOK along loads hundreds of thousands of those 10-15 second videos a minute. So it really doesn't have to be writers writing each day. or even things that would qualify as a "song" in many definitions. No matter what the numbers are, It's mind numbing, no matter how many they are. The point is that the difficulty of getting and keeping people's attention for any amount of time is pretty hard these days. In my experience, we have more people NOW DOING MUSIC than LISTENING TO IT.

Japov, there are tons of reasons that it has gotten into the areas it is, the mindless record companies are just one more instence. In 1998, when I attended an "insiders" conference about something coming called the "INTERWEB" one of the tech guys said "In the future, songwriters will have to forget about royalties, cause those won't be there anymore." That's pretty much exactly what has happened.

It's always supply and demand and for writers, actors, artists, whatever, have to find their niche. That's the present and the future of the craft.

Marc, whatever the number is, it's a shitload - ha, ha. I find it amazing how ASCAP keeps record of all this. At least a dozen Internet performances show up on my statements each quarter.

Best, John

Ohhhhhhh, I seee... So, in order for me to "RULE THE WORLD", first I need someone with enough clout to label and categorize me. Hmmmmm....

John,

ASCAP, BMI, SESAC DON'T keep most of them registered or keep up with it. Or pay out on anything that doesn't generate enough traffic. That's a big part of the problem, they have to registered, and have to come from something that REPORTS them. The vast vast vast majority of songs get no views, no listens, no downloads, etc. Just because someone puts something OUT there, doesn't mean anyone pays for it.It's the equivilent of "back in the day" when someone would get a few spins of a record on some obscure college radio station in the middle of no where. There is just not enough activity to report. Same deal today.

And in many cases, touring artists, who register venues where they play, those venues have been hit by licencing fees, fines, or in many cases, quit having live music in any way. With all the hardships of Covid and related economic issues over the past few years, a resturant or bar already having problems keeping their doors open, supply chain problems, staffing problems, being hit with something else to pay for. Not worth getting hit up.

It's been an interesting world, watching a lot of my friends with very large hit songs, posting photos of their royalty checks, adding up to literally pennies.

Japov, as usual, all you need is a very large following of people who will pay you directly for your music. Then you'll do fine. Just need people that will pay you for being you. You have a big personality. Should be no problem for you.

Surely JAPOV would have more luck asking people to pay for him not to be him LOL.

Ha! I obviously have all the fans I need right here...

Yes, the musical equivilant of the ""FARMER'S SUBSIDIES) farmers being paid NOT to grow certain things.) Maybe some songwriters can be paid not to write, record or perform. I can think of a lot of people coming to Nashville every day who need that. When you have endless streams of mediocrity, you sometimes would rather just pay them to go away.

Now, now, Marc... just remember we're all the same color, all the same sex, and we all have equal opportunity and education. Just relax baby, it's all equitable, beautiful, and green

So, it's not really an ASCAP mechanism, it's my publishers reporting my Internet plays? TV / film is different, because cue sheets are turned in with all the necessary info. Although, some production companies are lax with the cue sheets. I see some cue sheets being turned in a year or two after the airing. Interesting anyway, how the money comes to ASCAP, then to the writers and performers.

John

Talked with an ASCAP representative. Here's what they told me:

ASCAP receives digital data from radio stations and streaming services which is then processed by our Audio Performance Management platform, which matches performance data to the works registered in ASCAP's databases. Detailed information about our performance matching and payment system can be found at https://www.ascap.com/help/royalties-and-payment/payment/surveys

John

Tom,
So sorry to hear Justice has had health problems. I remember all the work you did with her. What a great time in life when you have the opportunity to actively work with your kid in something you both are passionate about, especially in the creative realm and be helping them pursue a dream to boot. I miss that with my kids but now have 7 grandkids to muck about with.

I hope whatever her health problem(s) are, that she finds relief. How old is she now?
Regards.
Steve

John, the operative word is REPORTING. Many people that get "placements" in film and television and get no money because frankly the television, podcasts or movies, make no money at all, in fact close quickly, have very low vewership. Many, actually most podcasts have no commericals or income revenue. They don't report. So your publisher can report all they want to and there is nothing to collect. And that is inherantly the over problem. The endline consumer simply pays no money for music at all, or pays for streaming services that are so low as to not register. In order for anyone to COLLECT money, someone has to PAY money.

Even on many streaming services, people are listening to around 8 seconds of songs, and then move on to something else. They don't register at all. This is the moving goalposts that have been happening since the Internet began this. The streaming platforms, make money. But they don't pay that money out. How someone like SPOTIFY have billion dollar initial public offerings, pay nobody anything, and still be broke companies. Try to audit or check them out? They are usually based in countries like Sweden, Russia or most often, China. My personal feelings are that one day all of these companies are going to be the "news story" when they end up completely going under, the money taken to non-extridition countries or it is discovered the claims of endless money never existed in the first place. Much like Enron, Bernie Madoff or the other "sure things" that were "too big to fail."

Most videos, music, etc. get less than a few hundred streams, views or listens. There is simply nothing to collect. And as the world of entertainment, culture, etc. get more and more saturated, less and less controlled, and the endline consumer is able to get whatever they want from a huge variety of sources, the idea of "making money through music" will be an archaic term. Supply and demand. Never fails.

Hey Marc, I agree with you on streaming music on the Internet. However, TV & film placements are still lucrative. It’s in the interest of the publisher to have production people turn in cue sheets. On the most part, I think they do. Also, except for the cheap reality shows and poor stations like Telemundo, most major stations like CBS, NBC, ABC, or markets like HBO, Netflix, Prime Video, etc. pay upfront licensing. Theater movies always pay upfront because the PROs don’t cover them. That being said, the last couple years have slowed down a bit - but it's far from coming to an end - I hope...

John

Hey John, don’t mean to interrupt this interesting discussion, but did you ever find that Nintendo commercial?

Unfortunately, not Craig. The last I was told it was used for a Nintendo commercial and convention. My publisher couldn't supply me with a link. Bummer - but I moved on...

Best, John

Interesting. Thanks John…Craig

Considering that I have a friend who has some pretty major tv and film placements with DISNEY, who has also been having problems getting paid, it's not always as lucrative as it once was. All of the legal issues now are just another part of the slow downs. Much has to do with companies buying other companies, multiple changes in accounting, as well as companies simply going out of business, which is what we have seen over the past ten-fifteen years. The overall point is that anyone expecting to make money from music, need to be aware of all the various things going on and keep expectations realistic.

Well Marc, Disney probably isn't a good example. With all their financial problems. The cue sheet flow has slowed down, but still moving from my experience. I haven't experienced any problems getting paid by any company.

Best, John

Very good John. You are the one satisfied with the music industry.

Oh, come on Marc. Don't end this debate. It's been a long time since we had debates on JPF. I have had tracks on Disney placements.

Best, John

John,

There's not much debate. If you are personally doing well, that is great. There are very few people that I know at all that are. My personal feelings are of those I was told many years ago that most people should stop looking for financial rewards coming through music. I believe we are going back to the days where there were "patrons of the arts" and pretty much all money in music will be ending before very long. There will always be some people on the top of the heap, but the goalposts will continue to be changed until monetary compensation for music will be completey phased out or so small as to make no discernable money whatsoever. This includes people that are live performers, that do paintings, sculputure, etc. it will all be erased from any value.

I got out of the acutal 'music business" many years ago and got into teaching and instructing. The similar ways that prospectors in the gold and silver rushes of the old west, phased out, and the people who persevered, were the stores, the merchants, the people who sold the picks, shovels and claims, to the subsequent generations coming in. I quit my belief in monetary compensation for music decades ago. So it doesn't matter to me. I simply observe.

When I speak of anything on these or any boards, it is from personal experience that myself of friends of mine have gone through and watching almost all professional writers exit the business completely, and newer generations of "amateurs" take over (Reality shows, the "streaming world", decline of standards, quality, etc.) is simply a natural evolution or de-evolution of what happens when there are no floodgates, no real gatekeepers,etc. just everyone being able to do roughly the same thing. Get enough "views or clicks" develop a following, you'll survive. Don't, you won't. End of story.

I'm in effect, "semi-retired." I work with whom I choose work with, say "NO" a lot, and basically stay involved in my own small corner of the universe. I have beyond no interest in what is happening with any of the traditional or non-traditional forms of musical world. Something I was once interested in, no longer am.
In my opinion, it is "THE BEST OF TIMES, THE WORST OF TIMES." If you constantly re-invent yourself and react or are in front of what is coming, you'll be fine. If not, you won't,

So you'll find no debate with me. It is what it is. I have no dog in the hunt. I have my experiences, others have theirs. My involvement in all of this is fading quickly. I did come back around because it is always nice to have forums and venues for other people to congregate and pick up various perspectives on information. I wish everyone well. No debate from me, just an older guy watching the sun set.

You're starting to rub off on me Marc, lol...
Perhaps you need a change of pace?
Sincerely now, Everybody knows that you know the industry inside and out, and that's great! But, going on and on about how the business has always been a crap shoot, now there's no money left in it, and it's only going to get worse... "blah blah"... is kinda' boring and depressing. So, here's what I'm thinking... Try a little levity. Start a thread called, "50yrs of MAB's humorous success/fail stories about the music biz!" Start all the way back when you were first learning to play and sing, leaving enough room between short stories for the rest of us to laugh, reminisce, and relate. A real "get to know ya" thread, while we ALL fade into the sunset. What'cha think?

Marc, one reason why music placements for film is still lucrative, is many film companies want to make sure the music is properly cleared, to avoid lawsuits. They're willing to pay more money for this assurance.

Hey John, I’ve been targeting sync. placements the last year plus. A couple of songs are on hold, another sync. agent offered an exclusive contract, and several songs are listed with a non-exclusive sync. agent. The “agents” I speak of have had successful placements in the past. They seem realistic about possibilities because of the competition. But parts of the industry, Tik Tok being the most recent, are hiring artificial intelligence software types to have AI ‘write’ the songs (or bits of songs) for their videos. So, in this environment, as far as being able to commercialize music, human music makers have been devalued.

NAH

Yes, and I see some companies offering royalty free music. There are also music libraries with hundreds of thousand tracks offering clients complete use of their library for $19.95 a month. Music creators selling out for a few cheap thrills. But, I have to believe that most of the top production companies wouldn't do business with libraries like these.