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#1175247 - 03/24/21 08:23 PM Someone said, "Song-Writing is Re-Writing."  
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,081
Gary E. Andrews Offline
Gary E. Andrews  Offline

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Posts: 2,081
Portsmouth, Ohio, USA
Cathy Heller of Catch The Moon Music advises, "Give yourself permission to be messy."
I think that's good advise when you ad lib Lyric.
Sing something and see if it sings well, and makes sense too. See if what comes out of your mouth suggests a story you'd like to hear more of.
Sometimes that first Line is just a beginning. It may introduce the Singer-Character with a pronoun, 'I'. It may imply the Singer-Character by conversational nature, addressing himself/herself to communicate 'with' another character, with the pronoun 'you'. That's a direct First-Person form of conversation.
The Singer-Character may address him/herself to the listener, telling us about someone else; the pronoun 'she' or 'he'.
That can happen in Line 1 of Verse I, if you start with a Verse. Some Songs start with the Chorus. Those character 'creations' can happen whatever form you choose.
You are the first listener. You make judgment calls about how the 'conversation' is going to go, who's talking to whom.
Here's a Song idea that came to me in a dream. I've been in a 'fallow' period, not writing, but this dream made me want a Song out of it. Before my judgmental faculties came fully awake, I gave myself permission to be messy, and wrote some Verses, led to the Chorus idea from the dream, did some editing, and a 'final' Re-Write. I enjoyed seeing it evolve as much as enjoying the finished product.
Here's what I remembered of the dream when I woke up:

I had a dream.
I'm walking into a long room carrying my guitar in a case.
A drummer is set up in the back, beyond a circle of couches and armchairs.
A guitar player is laid back on one of the couches, on the left, guitar in hand.
The drummer is sayin', "Well play somethin'!"
I sit down with my back to the drummer, take out my guitar, start playin' E7 and A7, singing, "Taste! Taste of love! Taste! Taste of love!"
I woke up, and played the Chorus and wrote the rest to go with it.

After The Taste Of Love" Copyright March 16, 2021.
By Gary E. Andrews. All Rights Reserved For The Globe.
E7 O2213O
A7 XO2O2O XO2O23
B7 O212O2

Nobody warned me, about your kiss.
Nobody told me, how much I would miss,
the look in your eye, the feel of your lips,
After The Taste Of Love!
My buddy told me you could set me on fire.
Nobody warned me love could be a liar.
Nobody knows the depths of desire,
After The Taste Of Love!

Taste! I want a taste of your love!
Taste! I want a taste of your love!
Taste! I want a taste of your love!
More of the same's all I can think of,
After The Taste Of Love!

I know you tol' me not to get this started.
You said we could both end up broken-hearted!
I felt the pain in the moment we parted,
After The Taste Of Love!
We got entangled in your twenty questions!
I fell like a fool who never learns his lesson.
Kicked out of school, I came back messin',
After The Taste Of Love!

Taste! I want a taste of your love!
Taste! I want a taste of your love!
Taste! I want a taste of your love!
More of the same's all I can think of,
After The Taste Of Love!

I kissed the Gypsy twice before I paid her!
She said, "You come on like a pirate raider!
I said, "Baby can't we talk about this later,
After The Taste Of Love!
After The Taste Of Love!
After The Taste Of Love!



EDITING:
"After The Taste Of Love" Copyright March 16, 2021.
By Gary E. Andrews. All Rights Reserved For The Globe.
Nobody warned me, about your kiss.
Nobody told me, how much I would miss,
the look in your eye, the feel of your lips,
After The Taste Of Love!
The Gypsy told me, you could set me on fire!
I didn't believe her! I called her a liar!
How could I know, the depths of desire,
After The Taste Of Love?

Taste! I want a taste of your love!
Taste! I want a taste of your love!
Taste! I want a taste of your love!
More of the same's all I can think of,
After The Taste Of Love!

I know you tol' me, not to get this started.
You said we could both, end up broken-hearted!
I felt the pain, in the moment we parted,
After The Taste Of Love!
We got entangled, in your twenty questions!
I fell like a fool, who never learns his lesson.
Kicked out of school, I came back messin',
After The Taste Of Love!

Taste! I want a taste of your love!
Taste! I want a taste of your love!
Taste! I want a taste of your love!
More of the same's all I can think of,
After The Taste Of Love!

I kissed the Gypsy, twice before I paid her!
She said, "You come on, like a pirate raider!
I said, "Baby, can't we talk about this later,
After The Taste Of Love?
After The Taste Of Love!
After The Taste Of Love!



A Re-Write, to simplify. March 19, 2021.

"After The Taste Of Love" Copyright March 16, 2021.
By Gary E. Andrews. All Rights Reserved For The Globe.
E7 O2213O
A7 XO2O2O XO2O23 XO2223
B7 O212O2

Nobody warned me, about your kiss.
Nobody told me, how much I would miss,
the look in your eye, the feel of your lips,
After The Taste Of Love!
The Gypsy told me, you could set me on fire!
I wouldn't believe her! I called her a liar!
How could I know the depths of desire,
After The Taste Of Love?

Taste! A taste of love!
Taste! I want a taste of your love!
Taste! A taste of love!
More of the same is all, I can think of,
After The Taste Of Love!

The Gypsy told me not to get this started.
She said we could both end up broken-hearted!
I felt a pain, in the moment we parted,
After The Taste Of Love!

Taste! A taste of love!
Taste! I want a taste of your love!
Taste! A taste of love!
More of the same is all, I can think of,
After The Taste Of Love!

I kissed the Gypsy, twice before I paid her!
She said, "You come on like a pirate raider!"
I said, "Baby, can't we talk about this later,
After The Taste Of Love?
After The Taste Of Love!
After The Taste Of Love!
.


There will always be another song to be written. Someone will write it. Why not you? www.garyeandrews.com
#1175253 - 03/24/21 09:33 PM Re: Someone said, "Song-Writing is Re-Writing." [Re: Gary E. Andrews]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 3,626
Fdemetrio Offline
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Fdemetrio  Offline
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That's nothin, half my songs end up completely different songs. Thats why im a believer in never throwing away anything. Never know when you find use for a line, a hook, a melody. I have hundreds of ideas and half finished songs.

Reading your edits, it be very hard to know the impact of the edits without hearing it play out.

Sometimes changing words affects the melody, actually it always does.

Looking at it on paper, no version is better than the other, it would be a matter of singability.

#1175519 - 03/30/21 03:23 PM Re: Someone said, "Song-Writing is Re-Writing." [Re: Gary E. Andrews]  
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,081
Gary E. Andrews Offline
Gary E. Andrews  Offline

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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,081
Portsmouth, Ohio, USA
Yes, not everyone is still studying the art and craft of Song-Writing.
Being able to perceive the difference in the 'inspired' or 'art' part and the 'crafted' part is interesting to me.
Sometimes a little 'crafting' brings a mediocre Lyric up a notch, closer to appealing to a broader audience.


There will always be another song to be written. Someone will write it. Why not you? www.garyeandrews.com
#1175992 - 04/17/21 11:10 PM Re: Someone said, "Song-Writing is Re-Writing." [Re: Gary E. Andrews]  
Joined: Dec 2006
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Gary E. Andrews Offline
Gary E. Andrews  Offline

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Posts: 2,081
Portsmouth, Ohio, USA
(Here's another one, with some of the in-process editing or re-writing. First, the version I worked with, moving forward.
"She's A Hanger On" copyright April 12, 2021 by Gary E. Andrews.


She's A Hanger On.
I let her hang around.
She's as good as gone.
She's never let me down. (I started with "She's never let me down" and tried "You know she's never let me down.")
She's a Hanger On.
I like having her around.

She's a white gold girl.
She got silver everywhere.
She's a righteous girl.
It's not as good when she's not there.
She's A Hanger On.
I like having her around. (I kept repeating this Line, but thought Verses II and III should have their own Line, keeping with the Rhyme-Scheme.)

(Later I tried, "I like her enough to share" and "She likes me well enough to share" and "Ones like her are rather rare", but wasn't satisfied with those Lines.)
She's that kind of girl,
like you hear about in songs,
from a different world.
Somehow tonight she got it wrong.
She's A Hanger On.
I like having her around.

She's A Hanger On.
I let her hang around.

(Then I found Lines I liked, in the Rhyme-Scheme, and coherent (If that word applies to a somewhat poetically vague Lyric) in the theme or storyline.)


"She's A Hanger On" copyright April 12, 2021 by Gary E. Andrews.

E7 O2213O
A7 XO2221
B7 O212O2

She's A Hanger On.
I let her hang around.
She's as good as gone.
I know she's never let me down.
She's a Hanger On.
I like having her around.

She's a white gold girl.
She got silver everywhere.
She's a righteous girl.
It's not as good when she's not there.
She's A Hanger On.
She's a little worse for wear.

She's that kind of girl,
like you hear about in songs,
from a different world.
Somehow tonight she got it wrong.
She's A Hanger On.
She's right where she belongs.

She's A Hanger On.
I let her hang around.
She's as good as gone.
I know she's never let me down.
She's a Hanger On.
I like having her around.

She's A Hanger On.
I let her hang around.

(You can't hear this one, but you can hear others at www.garyeandrews.com )
Site doesn't work with an iPhone.

GARYEANDREWS.COM


There will always be another song to be written. Someone will write it. Why not you? www.garyeandrews.com
#1176032 - 04/19/21 09:54 AM Re: Someone said, "Song-Writing is Re-Writing." [Re: Gary E. Andrews]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,034
Marty Helly Offline
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Posts: 2,034
Florence, MA, USA
I think the original is much better than the rewrites. The problem I had with the original was the bridge focusing on "the gypsy". Before that the song has a more universal appeal. The rewrites continually narrow it down on the gypsy rather than the emotion.


Marty my home

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again!
#1176077 - 04/20/21 07:10 PM Re: Someone said, "Song-Writing is Re-Writing." [Re: Gary E. Andrews]  
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,081
Gary E. Andrews Offline
Gary E. Andrews  Offline

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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,081
Portsmouth, Ohio, USA
I can see that.
I was interpreting it as the Singer-Character being a lustful dawg and going to a fortune teller and hitting on her too.
But it does make that transition from speaking directly to the Love-Interest character to telling someone, either the LI Character or the audience, about what happens with the Gypsy. Another angle is to make it ALL about the Gypsy.

"After The Taste Of Love" Copyright March 16, 2021.
By Gary E. Andrews. All Rights Reserved For The Globe.
E7 O2213O
A7 XO2O2O XO2O23 XO2223
B7 O212O2

Nobody warned me, 'bout the Gypsy's kiss.
Nobody told me, how much I would miss,
the look in her eye, the feel of her lips,
After The Taste Of Love!
The Gypsy told me, she could set me on fire!
I wouldn't believe her! I called her a liar!
How could I know the depths of desire,
After The Taste Of Love?

Taste! A taste of love!
Taste! I want a taste of your love!
Taste! A taste of love!
More of the same is all, I can think of,
After The Taste Of Love!

The Gypsy told me not to get this started.
She said we could both end up broken-hearted!
I felt a pain, in the moment we parted,
After The Taste Of Love!

Taste! A taste of love!
Taste! I want a taste of your love!
Taste! A taste of love!
More of the same is all, I can think of,
After The Taste Of Love!

I kissed the Gypsy, twice before I paid her!
She said, "You come on like a pirate raider!"
I said, "Baby, can't we talk about this later,
After The Taste Of Love?
After The Taste Of Love!
After The Taste Of Love!


There will always be another song to be written. Someone will write it. Why not you? www.garyeandrews.com
#1176140 - 04/22/21 10:01 PM Re: Someone said, "Song-Writing is Re-Writing." [Re: Gary E. Andrews]  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,982
John Voorpostel Offline
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John Voorpostel  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,982
One of the first things I learned from some of the originals here was this

Songs are written, but great songs are rewritten.... so thanks for the examples

I kinda like the E7 A7 B7 but want to throw in a full E to resolve this ...do you do this at all anywhere in the song?


If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop

iAccountant --- Info L inc --- Taxboard
#1176144 - 04/22/21 10:30 PM Re: Someone said, "Song-Writing is Re-Writing." [Re: Gary E. Andrews]  
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,081
Gary E. Andrews Offline
Gary E. Andrews  Offline

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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,081
Portsmouth, Ohio, USA
No. No E. I'm not a musician so I don't know the rules. I'll certainly try it.


There will always be another song to be written. Someone will write it. Why not you? www.garyeandrews.com
#1176155 - 04/23/21 11:59 AM Re: Someone said, "Song-Writing is Re-Writing." [Re: Gary E. Andrews]  
Joined: Apr 2009
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beechnut79 Offline
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beechnut79  Offline
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Posts: 3,758
Villa Park IL
Don't know for sure how many times if at all songs that became classic hits were revised before final product issued. Not sure if you are asking us to vote for which one of the three editions to your song is the best, but I would cast my vote for the second one.

Caught the line about not throwing potential songs away. I once read or heard somewhere that Hank Williams once did just that. But on second thought he dug it out of the trash and went back to work on it. And as they all say, the rest is history. The resurrected song was "Your Cheatin' Heart".

#1176160 - 04/23/21 12:11 PM Re: Someone said, "Song-Writing is Re-Writing." [Re: Gary E. Andrews]  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,982
John Voorpostel Offline
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John Voorpostel  Offline
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Posts: 10,982
Not sure there are "rules" you always have to follow...as long as you melody picks up notes in your chords.

Em Am B7 work well, E A B7 also.... no reason E7, A7 B7 cannot be made to work...

It's just when I played it, I did want to resolve on E


If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop

iAccountant --- Info L inc --- Taxboard
#1176162 - 04/23/21 12:59 PM Re: Someone said, "Song-Writing is Re-Writing." [Re: Gary E. Andrews]  
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,081
Gary E. Andrews Offline
Gary E. Andrews  Offline

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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,081
Portsmouth, Ohio, USA
No, no voting. Just showing the variations of Re-Writing. I do a lot of 'editing' within the Song-Writing process, ad lib a Line, modify it to say it a different way, get a different Prosody to the beat, a variation on the Melody.
I probably do a lot of 'resolving' in the vocal Melody, not necessarily having a 'backing' chord to do it, instead letting whatever chords I do have serve that function. It probably drives the trained musicians nuts! Or the 'cover Song' guys with 10,000 Songs of experience, knowing I'm leaving out the stuff a good Producer would tell me to put in.
I'm mainly interested in words, so I only play 'well enough' to enable me to sing them.
And I mainly wanted to show how a Song can evolve from what first comes to mind or, ad lib, comes out of your mouth, to make it work in different ways.
I wonder if these can switch from a male Point-Of-View to a female Point-Of-View? Another Re-Write.
A Re-Write, for a Female Point-Of-View. March 23, 2021.

"After The Taste Of Love" Copyright March 16, 2021.
By Gary E. Andrews. All Rights Reserved For The Globe.
E7 O2213O
A7 XO2O2O XO2O23 XO2223
B7 O212O2

Nobody warned me, 'bout the Gypsy's kiss.
Nobody told me, how much I would miss,
the look in his eye, the feel of his lips,
After The Taste Of Love!
The Gypsy told me, he could set me on fire!
I wouldn't believe him! I called him a liar!
How could I know the depths of desire,
After The Taste Of Love?

Taste! A taste of love!
Taste! I want a taste of your love!
Taste! A taste of love!
More of the same is all, I can think of,
After The Taste Of Love!

The Gypsy told me not to get this started.
He said we could both end up broken-hearted!
I felt a pain, in the moment we parted,
After The Taste Of Love!

Taste! A taste of love!
Taste! I want a taste of your love!
Taste! A taste of love!
More of the same is all, I can think of,
After The Taste Of Love!

I kissed the Gypsy, twice before I paid him!
She said, "You come on like a pirate raider!"
I said, "Baby, can't we talk about this later,
After The Taste Of Love?
After The Taste Of Love!
After The Taste Of Love!


April 26, 2021: Another re-write to get the Singer-Character back in direct conversation with the Love-Interest Character.

"After The Taste Of Love" Copyright March 16, 2021.
By Gary E. Andrews. All Rights Reserved For The Globe.
E7 O2213O
A7 XO2O2O XO2O23 XO2223
B7 O212O2

Nobody warned me, 'bout your Gypsy kiss.
Nobody told me, how much I would miss,
the look in your eye, the feel of your lips,
After The Taste Of Love!
I know you told me, you could set me on fire!
I wouldn't believe you! I called you a liar!
How could I know the depths of desire,
After The Taste Of Love?

Taste! A taste of love!
Taste! I want a taste of your love!
Taste! A taste of love!
More of the same is all, I can think of,
After The Taste Of Love!

I know you told me not to get this started.
You said we could both end up broken-hearted!
I felt a pain, in the moment we parted,
After The Taste Of Love!

Taste! A taste of love!
Taste! I want a taste of your love!
Taste! A taste of love!
More of the same is all, I can think of,
After The Taste Of Love!

You Gypsy kissed me, twice before I paid you!
I said, "You come on like a pirate raider!"
You said, "Baby, can't we talk about this later,
After The Taste Of Love?
After The Taste Of Love!
After The Taste Of Love!

Last edited by Gary E. Andrews; 04/26/21 10:25 PM.

There will always be another song to be written. Someone will write it. Why not you? www.garyeandrews.com
#1176187 - 04/24/21 02:52 AM Re: Someone said, "Song-Writing is Re-Writing." [Re: Gary E. Andrews]  
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Gary, you're a great "singer/songwriter" and, as such, I totally relate to everything you've said here. Especially "singing lines to make them fit".

But...

What advice do you have for "lyricists only"? How do you get the point across to a lyricist, who won't even TRY to sing, that every musician is going to interpret a lyric differently, then apply their own "style" to it? How do you get the point across that, it's not a song until you can sing it, and just because you have a "song in mind" doesn't mean it will work?

#1176191 - 04/24/21 04:36 AM Re: Someone said, "Song-Writing is Re-Writing." [Re: Gary E. Andrews]  
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Well, the Lyricist Only has to have some sense of the Rhythm and Rhyme of their words.
It is likely there are some who only comprehend the concepts in the words, without any comprehension of how they work when sung, Prosody of how a Lyric 'marries' to a Melody, and the Arrangement (musical accompaniment).
But most likely have some idea of Melody, even if it is rudimentary, only 'rappish' Rhythmic recitation. Get them to 'recite' it, vocalizing, simply reading. Rhythm and Rhyme should be inescapable, tempo, duration, Structure.

Lyric-only writers frequently don't comprehend THE Hook, the title Line, its 'summary' nature, how it is the gist, the main idea, and has to be driven home with Repetition.

The 'Enough' concept eludes many. How much 'setup' is Enough before it its 'time' to get to that main idea, THE Hook, in the Chorus?
How much is 'Too Much', or 'Not Enough'.

How do you get them to comprehend things like that? You teach. You show examples. You 'assign' them 'homework' to find Songs they think do things right, and to analyze them. How long is the Introductory Movement? How much setup did that Song-Writer do in whatever they open with, Chorus or Verse, before they get on to the next part? Do they do 'Enough', 'Too Much', or 'Not Enough', in their opinion.

Such analytical study should inform them, quickly, two to five Songs, in their own writing.
A novel has 50,000 words to get a story told. A Song, much less.
"Don't bore us! Get to the Chorus!" is the 'rule', and, as Ande Rasmussen's Lyric Writing Tips thread here teaches, 'rules are tools'.
There's no substitute for that 'study' of Lyrics we think do things right, AND, that we think do things wrong. You can learn as much from a 'bad' Song or Lyric as you can a good one. Maybe more.
If you try to set their Lyric to music but just can't get it to work, in your opinion, you simply have to tell them so. If you can point out why you can't get it to work, lack of Rhythm, lack of Rhyme-Scheme consistency, lack of THE Hook, lack of Structure (Intro., Verse, Chorus, Bridge, Coda components) you may be able to bring their creative skills up a notch. If...that big little word...they want to be better Lyric-Only Writers, they have to be willing to study, to communicate with their musicians, to comprehend what the musicians will need in the Lyric to make it work.
Bernie Taupin, the luckiest Lyricist in the world, found Elton John, the luckiest pianist in the world, and together they had a lot of fun with Song-Writing, very original, very entertaining. Bernie's Lyrics were not always Song-ready. Elton was uninspired on piano, perhaps, without words to work with. He likely designed the Structure of the Songs, finding what he would make the Chorus, even if Bernie had not designated it as such. Elton likely identified Bernie's main idea, and knew what he was looking at, and then stressed it in the Songs. Millions of fans agreed with his judgment.
Many of the great Song-Writing teams of musical history had this kind of relationship, a Lyricist, perhaps Lyrics-Only types, and a musician, pianist, guitarist, whatever. Over time, each probably taught the other something about their specialty, and great Songs resulted.
Learning of any type is a lifetime process, a lifetime of learning. As long as you're open to learning there will be new things to learn. A Lyricist-Only writer can get stuck in rattling off the same flawed product day after day, or they can learn refinements of creative intent, 'crafting' their 'inspiration', writing, re-writing, 'getting' the story and delivering it in Song-ready format.
Note: Do not hit them in the head with any musical equipment. It does not help them and may damage the equipment. Resist temptation. Lead. Don't push.


There will always be another song to be written. Someone will write it. Why not you? www.garyeandrews.com
#1176192 - 04/24/21 05:16 AM Re: Someone said, "Song-Writing is Re-Writing." [Re: Gary E. Andrews]  
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Lol... If I had $1000 for every guitar I've busted... smile


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