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#1175685 - 04/09/21 09:51 AM Dirty Business of Songwriting  
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Sounds like extortion to me. "Give us more of a cut, and well let you work as a songwriter"

I thought money in songwriting was gone, but this article says otherwise. Guess were talking huge names.

https://variety.com/2021/music/news/dirty-business-hit-songwriting-1234946090/

As songwriters have seen their leverage eroded by streaming — which pays a larger royalty for recorded music than publishing — artists, managers, producers and even executives have amped up their demands for credit and/or a percentage of the songwriters’ publishing in exchange for the artist cutting the song, or even simply for bringing the song to the artist. And as the value of song catalogs has risen in recent years, with Bob Dylan selling his to Universal Music Publishing for more than $300 million and Stevie Nicks selling hers to Primary Wave for $100 million, sources say, more people are playing hardball.

#1175693 - 04/09/21 03:39 PM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Leverage. He has it, uses it.
With some people. 10 bucks is worth haggling over.

#1175697 - 04/09/21 05:51 PM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Did you read the article? Nobody is talking about your songwriting career, talking songwriting in general.

Whats really disgusting is people like Justin Bieber and Selena Gomez Arianna Grande and Jonas Brothers are regrettably the biggest names in pop music, and have hundreds of millions in their bank. Why would they want to take an extra 100 k from a songwriter?

Might as well ask them to mow your lawn too.

#1175701 - 04/09/21 09:08 PM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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I have no songwriting career. No confusion here.

Never forget

The natural order of things is for the big fish to eat the little fish.
No one believes that more than the big fish.

#1175706 - 04/10/21 07:50 AM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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It all boils down to greed. You see it in all walks of life from the arts to the business world. Doesn't matter how many millions or billions of dollars they have, they want more and they don't care what they have to do to get it and who they have to cheat. The poor and the weak are the easy targets so they get hit every day and every way. The super rich figure there are too many people living on earth consuming too much resources, they want to depopulate the earth. There is coming a time of reckoning and it is not far away.

#1175707 - 04/10/21 11:01 AM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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I'm going to play devils advocate here for a moment...

Doesn't it kinda' make sense that the best performers rise to the top, and the music consumer wants them to perform the best songs? I think the problem is a composition is physical, it's tactile and easy to own, but a performance isn't. However, without the right performance the composition goes nowhere. If the performance is what's selling the composition, then isn't it only fair that the performer own a piece of that?

Just as there are a thousand lyricists for every musician, aren't there a thousand musicians for every great performer?


#1175708 - 04/10/21 01:03 PM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Everett Adams]  
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Originally Posted by Everett Adams
It all boils down to greed.


To a great extent. Greed and personality.

As for the time of reckoning being at hand, people have been saying that since the glaciers melted back.
Then again, nuclear weaponry changed the nigh times hypotheticals.







#1175709 - 04/10/21 01:06 PM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: JAPOV]  
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Originally Posted by JAPOV
I'm going to play devils advocate here for a moment...

Doesn't it kinda' make sense that the best performers rise to the top, and the music consumer wants them to perform the best songs? I think the problem is a composition is physical, it's tactile and easy to own, but a performance isn't. However, without the right performance the composition goes nowhere. If the performance is what's selling the composition, then isn't it only fair that the performer own a piece of that?

Just as there are a thousand lyricists for every musician, aren't there a thousand musicians for every great performer?



Imo...that is the way that it shakes out. If you are on the good side of that, it is the natural of order of things that fate and destiny annointed you as a star. If you are on the bad side, the world is unfair...which is very true.

More than a thousand for sure.

#1175711 - 04/10/21 02:11 PM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Everette, its greed no doubt, but in an odd way, they probably think they are right. You cant get this song cut, but I can... why should I let you get the money, when it was going nowhere.... rhetort... because you wouldnt of had my song.


Whether it will ever affect me or not it's still the principle..... Anybody can still get lucky at any time and lose out on money.

Japov, the best perfomers often do rise to the top. But you have to define best.... which good luck with that, and are we conufusing best perfomers with relevant and "fresh" performers. Some people just dont have "it" my boy James Maddock, id put up there with any of the best singer songwriters, and hes a GREAT performer. But hes not Springsteen great as a live performer, stage presence, theatrics, ability to pull an audience in, those are things not everybody has, even though many others can out play, outsing, even outwrite them. Theres also not enough room for everybody. Its gotta be a bit of a crap shoot....

There is no "best" in music, theres an ear for anything, from Sex Pistols to Miles Davis

That said, liken it to movies. You got your great perfomers... Marlon Brando, AL Pacino, Meryl Streep, but what are they going to do without a script? Without a theme, etc...

The first Rocky, was written by Stallon, he proved he could create and write, and refused to give the movie up unless he did the acting. Worked out.

So i think the song is every bit as important as anything else. Even The Grateful Dead, one of the great jam bands of all time, had great songs to work with. Awesome songs really. Often gets overlooked. Many cant stand the Dead, but there is no way they would have lasted so long without great songs at the core.

#1175712 - 04/10/21 02:23 PM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Think of all the great sitcom characters, somebody wrote every line they spoke

All In The Family, Cheers, Seinfeld, Taxi.... As great as Jim Ignatowski was, without somebody writing those lines, it wouldnt be as good

Norm.... "I tell ya, being so close to death really changes a man, im REALLY gonna enjoy the taste of beer now"

Its a combination of great factors.... When its bad, its a combination of one or all of those things.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 04/10/21 02:23 PM.
#1175713 - 04/10/21 05:22 PM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Life Sucks, then you die. smile

#1175715 - 04/10/21 08:01 PM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Hes gone alright Couhgrouch... run to the hills!

#1175716 - 04/10/21 09:17 PM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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You know what... I just thought of something...
Speaking of theft and dirty business, CG has privately sent me two sets of lyrics. Both times, I commented on how they could be improved...
Who's to say CG isn't using "PM's" to steal ideas behind the scenes?

Hmmmm....

#1175719 - 04/10/21 10:32 PM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Nah, Couchgrouch has a solid alibi.... He believes other writers are inferior to him, so he wouldnt see anything he liked

I have seen alot of his hooks on bumper stickers and online, I dont know if thats coincidence. But I tell ya, if you think of a title, I GUARANTEE you it's been done before online. Try thinking of a band name, Ive been looking for a moniker name instead of my own, that I can use if I releae an album, and everything is taken. I lookin for a name like Hottie and Blowfish, or Five for fighting... which is actually ONE guy, he writes awesome pop songs, and whats strange is is a staunch republican, very rare. My own name is boring.

In a nutshell hes not stealing anything.

I have argued with you guys about songs, seemingly forever. Its so basic, I cant understand for the ife of me, how you can argue that a song doesnt matter. Look at the great bands, The Who. In my opinion the greatest rock band of all time. They reinvented their sound and style seemingly every decade. But they had sme chit songs and chit albums too. And they havent released a great song since You Better You Bet, or maybe Eminence front, but those were few and far between.

What is the difference? SONGS. They dont have them. Townshend to me is mindblowing how great of a songwriter and musician he was, but he recently admitted he cant write any more.

Go down the list, Macca, Stones, Who, Elton, Eagles, Bruce, Dylan, AC/DC, James Taylor. they are light years away from their best songs. And recording has gotten better.

The song is still king. I still dial up songs I wrote 30 years ago, trying to bend them and shape them, alot of times i had one verse or one bridge or one riff but nothing else came. By constantly trying to mold them, you get better at it, even if the song can not be finiihed. It makes you better for the next time.

Im a firm believer songwriting is as much perspiration as inspiration.

Then i read your replies, about a performer.... Sony Bono had hits...

Well, I know for a fact how much work goes into it, its taking me hours and hours to get drums exactly how I want them. Im obsessing now, i have an addictive personality... never did drugs, but I cant stop working on this stuff right now. Eventually these dozens of songs are gonna get done, Bucket list kind of thing.

But, you are still a tad strange... but your probably in good company here


Last edited by Fdemetrio; 04/10/21 10:40 PM.
#1175721 - 04/11/21 01:15 AM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Yeah', I guess I've been a little "moody" lately. I've been trying to make my hats out of wax-paper but it's just not the same.... smile

#1175722 - 04/11/21 07:22 AM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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If you and your wife are having a child that needs special care to be born into this world and need a special Doctor with special skills to deliver the child, you would not expect that Doctor to demand a share of that child's earning for the rest of its life. He was using his special gift to do his job, no doubt well paid for it. If an artist has special talents to sing but can't write, why would he/she demand income from the talents of a writer that supplies him/her with a product he/she needs to display his/her talents. We are all given different gifts and talents and are expected to use those gifts to help mankind, not steal another's gift just because they are in a position to do so.

#1175724 - 04/11/21 09:24 AM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Everett

This planet overflows with life forms, of which, humans are one. They are the ones with the best brain but mammals nonetheless. ....
Go on you tube and search "hyenas versus lions"
Watch some of those videos and they will display a basic understanding of what is at the core of life on this planet.

You may not believe that, so consider it again the next time you put mustard on a hamburger or salt on a steak.

#1175726 - 04/11/21 10:55 AM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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We dont know what the Elephants know, or Antelopes or Crocodiles, Polar Bears

This guy is so good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPdEP-mlVDE

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 04/11/21 10:55 AM.
#1175727 - 04/11/21 01:08 PM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Everett Adams]  
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Originally Posted by Everett Adams
If you and your wife are having a child that needs special care to be born into this world and need a special Doctor with special skills to deliver the child, you would not expect that Doctor to demand a share of that child's earning for the rest of its life. He was using his special gift to do his job, no doubt well paid for it. If an artist has special talents to sing but can't write, why would he/she demand income from the talents of a writer that supplies him/her with a product he/she needs to display his/her talents. We are all given different gifts and talents and are expected to use those gifts to help mankind, not steal another's gift just because they are in a position to do so.


You and I know that we are in this world but not of it my friend. Man was given complete dominion over the earth and command over everything upon it; to the animals we are as gods. However, for those of us who actually seek God's will and answer to His higher authority, we understand that, while still mortal, we are bound by the law of the land and God does not interfere with man's free will. Therefore the world is governed by evil in high places and tolerated by the ignorance of the ungodly.

We know that there is a better way, and Christ is who we wait upon. Until then, by the power of the Spirit, we simply try to make proper examples of ourselves smile

#1175729 - 04/11/21 01:46 PM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Will Durant, in covering the Renaissance in his Story of Civilization, had a line that stuck with me

It related to the behaviour of families in Italy killing eachother for various reasons. He said " A man's virtues are his own, his vices a reflection of his times"

Call it what you will but if it is accepted behaviour in this songwriter market...and people transact on that basis...who are we to judge?

The Stones were actually very fastidious in ensuring that the songwriters of their blues songs were properly paid. Their virtue.... and it is morally and ethically right

Someone said it is greed and big fish vs little fish, but that is not really the dynamic" that is going on here. It is not really driven by big fish and greed...though it is definitely a part of the "jousting game" of negotiation and using your power to get what you want

In pure economic terms, we are all simply resources valued in what we can do to further any kind of venture along, which we then exchange for money to buy things we want. I minor cog in a metaphorical wheel is a pretty low cost interchangable resource. Become more capable as a resource is what education and experience is all about....be that learning how to play guitar and write songs or becoming a star athlete.

Now let's say you have the talent and crafted a cool song and are Songwriter.

Songwriter has great song and wants "fame" and artist and producer can deliver it or deliver a pretty solid shot at it. They also have and have access to other necessary resources ...money, networks of people, practical experience....

You going to say no to at least part of a pie they can help you bake??? Remember they not only have the pull....it is not about who you know, it is all about who knows you.....but the artist will interpret the lyric and song through their own artistry, and the producer makes sure "the product" is up to snuff technically, artistically etc

Is a cowrite with a major star not an awesome accomplishment?? A stepping stone?

&&^tch and complain all you want and please pass my name on to any of those proposals you want to reject as unfair


If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop

iAccountant --- Info L inc --- Taxboard
#1175730 - 04/11/21 02:10 PM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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The problem is that, because of greed, all success is measured in terms of wealth. In a world where literally everything under the sun has a price, what's the point of doing anything without making a profit? That is where the corruption lives, nothing is ever equal.

" A man's virtues are his own, his vices a reflection of his times"

The nature of evil is duality. Life is like two dogs constantly fighting in your chest. Which one will win? Consider which one you feed the most... There's nothing new under the sun; vices are vices from any era.

#1175731 - 04/11/21 03:19 PM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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We are mammals working through a process that is HOPEFULLY on an inclined path towards greater and greater enlightenment.
Some of us think that subscribing to a "truth" and then dying gets us there that same day. Some of us wonder if something else belies all of this.

Whichever it is, when I look around at humanity or read up on it's past, I see a lot of greed everywhere that I look. And it sadly seems that many many people appear not greedy..until the opportunity to be greedy avails to them.

I suspect that the best dressed socialist in DC is AOC. She apparently likes expensive threads. Just one example that is fun to watch.

The takeaway...No use crying about it. These things remain unchanged since the garden of eden...if there was such as place.
If there was, it was apparently somewhere around Kenya.

#1175732 - 04/11/21 04:27 PM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Amazing how everything turns political. I really believe this site is not a musical site for most people.Even when you post a music related thread it goes political. Im the only one here who starts musical threads and most of the time they are ignored. This just had a flashy title.

John, its NOT accepted behavior. You seem to always want to go the other way. Its NOT accepted behavior, read the article, you'll find out.


Last edited by Fdemetrio; 04/11/21 04:28 PM.
#1175733 - 04/11/21 05:25 PM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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For me accepted behaviour equates to "it happens". Artists enter into these types of arrangements. It is a way of doing things in this industry.

Whatever value judgement you attach to "it happens" obviously has perspective and you and the article have one.

I actually tried to explain resource value as the logical economic basis for this happening.

I see it as a price of admission. You see it as immoral.

That's fine. You can and freely choose not to do a deal for one of your songs with a major songwriter and producer because they want songwriter credits alongside you.

But you do not deserve laurels for standing on principle. Instead you should be kicked in the

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#1175734 - 04/11/21 05:41 PM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Oh man, i's too bad Col. Tom didn't want to give Dolly what she deserved. I think an Elvis version of "I Will Always Love You" would have been amazing.

Isn't it a buyer's market so long as there are more hopeful songwriters than performing artists who can make a song a hit? In the movie business, if the screenwriters feel they aren't being treated fairly, they strike en masse. Brad Pitt doesn't get a writing credit just because his production company options a script. The system is designed so that studios can't just steamroll over writers.

What do pro screenwriters have that pro songwriters don't?

#1175735 - 04/11/21 05:53 PM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Amazing how everything turns political.


smile I think every discussion about the business of music is inherently political, because so much of it depends on decades (sometimes centuries) of laws and regulations.

#1175736 - 04/11/21 06:02 PM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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John, it was accepted behavior there wouldn't be an article, you're being really stupid. "argghhh if you dont want to do that with one of your songs"

Its not about me at all. Its a much more pertinent and relative discussion to what this forum should discuss, than 99% of your ramblings. Do you even write?

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 04/11/21 06:10 PM.
#1175737 - 04/11/21 06:08 PM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Scott, you are right about the comparison to screenwriters, songwriters could strike, but then theyd probably never have a job again.

But I agree, not just songwriting, but streaming...spotify paying artists pennies.... When 99% of the artists on there, wont even make a penny. It would be a good idea for musicians of all walks, songwriters, artists, all the people who work on the albums, touring industry to team up and demand better treatment. But it probably wont happen.

But your wrong about a thread becoming political for that reason, it becomes political, because people here are more passionate about politics than they are music. A political thread to start, will fill fastly with the usual suspects.


Last edited by Fdemetrio; 04/11/21 06:09 PM.
#1175738 - 04/11/21 06:16 PM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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A few years ago Beyonce and JZ and other known artists were not going to accept the streaming payout for their music and launched their own streaming service. I think that it did not work out. Haven't followed it but I don't think that they achieved critical mass.

I read once that the two of them are worth a billion bucks. If they can't turn the ride...anyone else is just howling at the moon.

#1175739 - 04/11/21 06:34 PM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Because Jay Z alone will not dent the music availability.

If every artist said "If I see my music on spotify again, im suing" it would either stop or a deal would be struck. They do it cause they can, and they can because the top people dont really need the money, yet, they make their big money from them artists.

Artists get more exposure, perhaps.

And very decent thing to do of Jay Z, obviously they dont need the money and its not about them.

$0.00437 is what they pay per stream.

And since selling is out the window, and the vast majority of musicians out there cant fill a bar, let alone a giant arena, there is nothing for a musician.

Tired of this non sense "argggh you gotta adapt" Yeah how well is MAB, or Kurt Fortmeyer, or anybody serious from this forum doing? They cant make a dime.

If I was in the position of writing a hit song and somebody turns and say, we wont pay you for this...id be pissed. I know it happens all the time at the low end, some movies and tv placements dont pay a dime.

But, its funny how this is whimsical and petty, but talks about AOC and the Democratic party are thrilling.

#1175740 - 04/11/21 06:53 PM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Because Jay Z alone will not dent the music availability.

If every artist said "If I see my music on spotify again, im suing" it would either stop or a deal would be struck. They do it cause they can, and they can because the top people dont really need the money, yet, they make their big money from them artists.

Artists get more exposure, perhaps.

And very decent thing to do of Jay Z, obviously they dont need the money and its not about them.

$0.00437 is what they pay per stream.

And since selling is out the window, and the vast majority of musicians out there cant fill a bar, let alone a giant arena, there is nothing for a musician.

Tired of this non sense "argggh you gotta adapt" Yeah how well is MAB, or Kurt Fortmeyer, or anybody serious from this forum doing? They cant make a dime.

If I was in the position of writing a hit song and somebody turns and say, we wont pay you for this...id be pissed. I know it happens all the time at the low end, some movies and tv placements dont pay a dime.

But, its funny how this is whimsical and petty, but talks about AOC and the Democratic party are thrilling.


This is not going to happen. Life has realities.
If THE Beyonce cannot marshall forces against this structural tide which is streaming and its' subscribers....anyone else is just...

(Your choice)

Howlin at the moon.
Scrapin' a tin cup down the bars
Pissin' into the wind.
lost in chimerical imaginings

No informal uprising of unknown performers is going to mount any counter revolution.

#1175741 - 04/11/21 07:55 PM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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First of all... did I say it will mount to a counter revolution?

Did I say it would be done?

Secondly, did I call for UNKNOWN performers to do this? I believe I called for ALL, mostly the top people to stand up for the whole, much like unions have always done.

Hard to discuss something if you dont even know the initial premise.

#1175742 - 04/11/21 08:09 PM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
First of all... did I say it will mount to a counter revolution?

Did I say it would be done?

Secondly, did I call for UNKNOWN performers to do this? I believe I called for ALL, mostly the top people to stand up for the whole, much like unions have always done.

Hard to discuss something if you dont even know the initial premise.




Contend that the argument is invalid because the color is not red but maroon, if you like...but ....what you putting forth is not going to happen.
Whether unknown, mostly unknown, all, or all minus 2...it is not going to happen.
Futile to assume that it might. Pointless to keep pressing it.

#1175743 - 04/11/21 08:20 PM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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You are just trying to start something, you chimed in immediately with the initial article, which you deemed unimportant, as if the chit you talk about is.

And I see, its not the point, that I didnt say what you said I did, but rather, its important that you say SOMETHING, to discredit.

I have said a thousand times in the past, its not what WILL happen, but should and could happen.

Im not contending anything, If you want to be a douche and come in a thread to disrupt it, then make sure you have a point.

I dont know how you got off ignore, ill have to smell for you next time.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 04/11/21 08:22 PM.
#1175744 - 04/11/21 08:27 PM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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#1175745 - 04/11/21 08:45 PM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Nothing personal towards you.

But an economic revolt against Spotify by "ALL" of the unknown songwriters and musicians is not going to happen. For many of the same reasons that ASCAP, BMI and SESAC benefit the big players and not the rest. Tony's assessment was correct.
When push comes to shove, push has to have force behind it. Wishing and wanting is not force or leverage.

It's futile to assume. I suggest you use your time and energy to find a more realistic goal (to shoot for) in order to monetize your music.

#1175748 - 04/11/21 10:17 PM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Money, money, money
Not enough for us all
Gimme, gimme, gimme
I want it ALL!

#1175749 - 04/11/21 10:45 PM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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The article posted is about a large group of (currently) very successful songwriters who have signed a pact. They are calling attention to the fact that performers, or their representatives, are demanding/asking for co-writing credit without contributing one line, one note of music, to the final product. The Pact has no issue with a performer who wants to actually collaborate and provide creative input to a song to get credit. The media has highlighted this recently as a wait and see what happens. That Rolling Stone, Billboard and others have taken notice might mean little to nothing, or is the beginning of a small shift in how writers are treated.

#1175750 - 04/11/21 11:17 PM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Then, of course, there's the bigger picture....

https://ultimateclassicrock.com/rock-bands-taxes/

#1175751 - 04/12/21 12:02 AM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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I know you want to live in a world where its not what WILL happen, but should and could happen.

Your value judgements are admirable FD...truly.... they were not lost on me.

But your exercise on fairness is arbitrary. Expose your thesis on what would be fore fair and equitable to a wide audience of those economically attached and participating in the music business....meaning drawing revenues or wages from the music industry....and you will get a wide range of fairness opinions ...and opinions on should and coulds

In the end, you get where we are, to what is actually happening, where what is Fair and Right and Just can be debated in abstract and against reality where all you rail against is happening...as it has down through time

In the early days of print publishers could simply publish whatever without compensation to authors. From then to now copyright and the businesses that financially benefit from the intellectual property bring us what gets published in all media from music to film to books to computer software code

All through time those close and important to the success of a venture shared in its spoils. In the music business, as in every business, norms developed in how things got done and how the pot was shared. The mob was apparently quite involved in the music business and reportedly made music careers, and through unions controlled a lot of the economy. Not right or fair or just but still was and to some extent probably still is so.

Other business practices and arrangements became norms as well and copyright spawned mechanical licensing agencies such as Harry Fox and Performing Rights Organizations such as BMI, ASCAP and various national PROs around the world. Copyright became foundational to the film and software industries

I guess what I'm saying is you come into an established way of doing things. There is a history you come into when you want to be part of making your song a hit. The one you wrote the lyric to and the melody you crafted with that moody hook that drives the song

Except that while you have a knack for crafting good tunes you are not really a professional singer and only a reasonably good guitarist. And you've never arranged or produced a professional recording though you've been around a studio and have one at home that recorded the music for the youtube video that got some attention and an enquiry

The artist and the CD producer both want songwriter credit for their participation and contribution, and serious publishing points

Both are established and known and your song will definitely get airplay and has a good chance of becoming a hit

Now what should and could FD do?

,


If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop

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#1175752 - 04/12/21 12:20 AM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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John, you and the douche, are two of a kind. Its hard to believe you can coexist.

I posted an article, i didnt write it. Its a fuggin article, its not my life long passion.

The ARTICLE stated the history of the unfairness and how its still prevalent today, and moreso. I didnt know that, or even consider it until I saw the ARTICLE, i posted the ARTICLE, because I thought it might be of interest to SONGWRITERS in general.

Do i agree its unfair? Absolutely, can I do anything about it? No.Obviously 18K songwriters think its worth fighting for, not enough, if you had a million, it might change the tide.

I repeat, I DIDNT WRITE THE ARTICLE. Its obviously of interest and bothersome to some

You dont write, you are not a musician, you have zero interest in it. I get that.

Some people are at least interested.

#1175753 - 04/12/21 08:29 AM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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I am a douche? A douche say thee? Reduced to a mere douche, am I ?

And that is because I see someone presenting and absolutely locking down on a fantasy that is never ever ever going to happen?
And I am a douche for pointing that out?
And this is in a decades long, unending string of pointless tardisms that this perpetrator clings to, that have no basis in fact?

I do most sincerely believe that there is a douche amongst us...but alas, 'tis not me.

(Quoted from above)
""Except that while you have a knack for crafting good tunes you are not really a professional singer and only a reasonably good guitarist. And you've never arranged or produced a professional recording though you've been around a studio and have one at home that recorded the music for the youtube video that got some attention and an enquiry""

That is what reality (non fantasy) looks like.
This broken soul, Dominic Doyle, who has no better argument than "douche" does not approach this trough to feed on music, but instead, the arguments of his creation.

#1175754 - 04/12/21 08:41 AM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Crime is rampant world wide in all aspects of life. Even in tow truck business in Toronto where people are getting killed over who controls certain areas. Some businesses have to pay fees to gangs so they will not firebomb their place of business. So I guess it is no wonder it is so prevalent in music. Music means big money so criminals are going to be there big time. The smallest guy in the industry is the easiest guy to rob from. He/she has very little clout, if they with draw their services, there are thousands more to take their place, they may not be near as good, but it does not seem to matter. The world needs music, the quality be dammed, if a person is hungry enough he will eat out of a garbage can.

#1175755 - 04/12/21 09:07 AM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Everette, you are spot on its extortion, but it also brings out that, possibly the songs are not that good, if they can afford to forget the songwriter, assuming they can easily get something similar from somebody else, and/or, that the songs by these artists are NOT very good, its all about production and singing. If you listen to today's pop its entirely about the singer, no mention of anybody else.
"
So i think its part of where music is at. I mean even if you contributed a few "girl, you are fine" or, " Im so sad without youss" are you really a commodity, or are you just there. To sum up, "I dont have the time to write my own lyrics or songs, ill just let my producer come up with a "dope" track, and if I cant think of my own "you are so hot" they will do it for me.

If somebody had presented them with a song like Hotel California, or, in that genre, " Sometimes when we touch" Or "Your Song, or " I will always love you, or any of the timeless classic pop love songs, they would easily pay up, and possibly pay more. Those kind of songs are not needed today.

In other words, "im not going to pay you 100k for a bag of ice cubes"

Understood, but its still a chit practice and wrong. And they probably spent 100k on champagne last month alone.


Last edited by Fdemetrio; 04/12/21 09:10 AM.
#1175756 - 04/12/21 10:38 AM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Hey FD, Douche #2 (or #1 dunno) here to wish you the best in your fantasy of fairness where you can rail against practices you will never encounter...choices you will never have to make, and judgements you can dole out as you see fit

Feel free to ignore history, reality, etc

Look, you are not wrong to bring forth the story...you are not wrong to have an opinion but us douches are trying to tell you its how things are done and you have no choice but to play by the rules of those who are in a position to make them IF you want to be in the game.

That way, one day you too might be in a position to write some rules for yourself because you will be good enough, well enough connected etc....

Somehow you are taking that as criticism of your position and this is causing you to lash out.


If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop

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#1175760 - 04/12/21 03:05 PM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Hmmmm... I've always wondered, why is "Douche" so derogatory? Personally, I like girls who take care of themselves that way. I can think of SO MANY other things I'd rather not be. A hemorrhoid for example. A herpes sore. An enormous pimple right on the end of your nose. Old grey ear hair. But a Douche? A Douche sounds nice to me smile

#1175762 - 04/12/21 03:30 PM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: JAPOV]  
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Originally Posted by JAPOV
Hmmmm... I've always wondered, why is "Douche" so derogatory? Personally, I like girls who take care of themselves that way. I can think of SO MANY other things I'd rather not be. A hemorrhoid for example. A herpes sore. An enormous pimple right on the end of your nose. Old grey ear hair. But a Douche? A Douche sounds nice to me smile


Oh!
Well then...I'll take it as a compliment. LOL

#1175764 - 04/12/21 04:33 PM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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I know, right? If douche tasted like Mountain Dew I'd "linger" for hours! smile

#1175766 - 04/12/21 05:35 PM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: JAPOV]  
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Originally Posted by JAPOV
I know, right? If douche tasted like Mountain Dew I'd "linger" for hours! smile


LMAO...So you like Mountain Dew?

#1175767 - 04/12/21 05:40 PM Re: Dirty Business of Songwriting [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Love it! I also love strawberry cheesecake but that doesn't seem appropriate...

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