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This thread isn’t intended for those that love the art of writing for its own sake, but for those pursuing financial success and/or recognition in the music business.

In the music business, acquiring a thick skin is needed if one plans to persevere. If you become damaged and wounded by rejection easily, it’s probably better to find an activity more forgiving.

Just yesterday I thought I had a track that was going to knock the socks off my publisher. It was rejected. Thus, the ongoing ritual of the music business - rejection. Also, this week I had a track accepted by a publisher, then rejected the next day (pick me up, and slam me back down – ha, ha). Perseverance and a thick skin aren’t a guarantee for success, but necessary if one doesn’t want to face depression and a feeling of worthlessness on a weekly basis. So, yes, being a composer/songwriting warrior is a prerequisite for your voyage to success. And you will acquire a thick skin if you last long enough.

Best, John

These forums used to serve as thick skin acquiring places. They don't anymore. I found people resent you for critiquing, and nobody likes getting it. Well, forums used to be good for that provided you weren't part of a clique where everybody is great.

At one time one forum used to have some hard hitters, that faded. More people got into home recording recording you own stuff, which really can't be critiqued, you either like it or don't.

So there was some function .... Wow you think that's good? That sucks! People don't say it here, but they think it.

I don't do many crits cause you always get the...who the he'll are you...response.

Might be true as well...

I try now to find something positive in what I see or hear, I've learned my two cents doesn't matter or count. Not unless somebody really wants to hear what I think.

Back in the 80s I had a band, and I had sax player on everything . the few demos that came back with a response would say...we already have a Springsteen, and he's from new jersey too. I got dozens of similar stuff. I thought it was a compliment but it wasn't really...they didn't preface it with a...that's good but...

Bottom line if you want to do as John says, open yourself up to harsh reviews, even the top people in the industry get slammed every day.

Hey John,

The rejections never stop either. I was speaking with Steve Seskin at the height of his success as a multi #1 writer including I think 3 or 4 with one artist in particular. I naively said "if you write something you know is hit, it must be nice to be able to get it right to "the artist in question" and he laughed and said he had no ability to even contact the artist nor could he expect to get a reply if he went through proper channels. I said, but you've written his last 3 #1 songs. He said he was still a nobody to those people with no more chance to even be heard than anyone else. I was shocked, but have since learned that no level of fame or success get's an easy road back to it. Not even people who make other people rich. It just doesn't work that way.

Brian

You have to learn the difference between harsh criticism and trolling. If it is trolling, just ignore it like it was never written. Engaging on any level is pointless and meaningless. If it is someone with the power to say "yes" to your work, then listen, no matter how painful or "wrong" you think you are. When a gatekeeper speaks, it matters, even when they are wrong. It is your job to give them what they want, or learn the art of persuasion to get them to like or accept what you are doing. Those are your options.

I am not in the frey with it like career musicians. Which is why this topic got my attention.
Like many I started out doing a certain genre. But wanted to expand my horizons, persevere through my thin skin.

But perceptions are another thing all together.
What is thought of now might not be in vogue tomorrow. But it can still come back just the same.
Maybe that initial idea and instinct is the best after all.
But I always felt that the idea of asking on the net was to not let myself be too sure of myself.

My first year ever performing... I did a solo gig at a packed sports bar in Cincinnati. At the last second I was invited to do a set to open for a local band who did half covers and originals. I didn't have time to let anyone know I was playing up there so I went blindly into a place where no one knew me. When I first walked in the door, the bar patrons were blaring "Nickelback" over the jukebox and the place was extremely loud. People were playing pool on two different pool tables, the bar was full of people and there were people packed into tables basically everywhere I could look. There were easily 30 televisions on, throughout the bar. Various sports, some MMA event going on. People randomly screaming at TV's, etc. My first thoughts were... do they know I'm a folk singer who does mostly originals?

I legit wanted to walk right back out the door after walking in. When I first went on the stage and played... the entire place got quiet and started watching me. It felt like a comedy movie or something. It was like this rowdy group of people didn't know what to think. As I started my 2nd song, some guy sitting at the table right in front of me screamed "you suck" at me. I was playing to a room full of strangers. I kept playing. After being silent and paying attention through that first song, the place got slightly louder the longer I played, until I played my last song and the crowd got quiet again. They clapped when I finished. I remember thinking to myself "Are they clapping out of joy that I'm getting off this stage or because they liked that last song?" The guy in the front who yelled at me kept starting at me like he wanted to punch me. He did this after I got off the stage, for the next hour or so while the band played after me. It started creeping me out.

After the band finished playing, the guitar player came over and bought me a beer and thanked me for coming at the last second. I asked him who that guy was that was sitting up front and staring me down and he told me that it was the father of the lead singer of his band. I realized it was not a random bar patron but someone who had a vested interest in the band who played after me. Going through that whole thing, actually helped me grow as a performer in a ton of ways. First of all... not everyone is going to like what you are doing. Specific types of people and crowds like this, are just simply unlikely to enjoy a quiet solo folksinger who writes his own songs that they do not know. I also learned something about competition as well. After I thought more about that moment... I began to wonder if he was just trashing me to try and make his son's band sound or look better in the moment, etc.

I thought a bit about potential solutions to that situation. Maybe I should have added some songs to my repertoire, that would have gelled better with a Nickelback loving crowd. Then I realized that I would probably be less genuine if I did that, so I just continued to work on my craft, write songs and play gigs. You can't please everyone, but you can't be afraid of people in the crowd like that. Even when they seem to want to punch you.

Thanks for sharing your experience Donnie.

It is the age old quesyion sbout whether you should please the crowd or yourself. I think it depends. Is it a paid gig? Who paid you? Likely the club in most instances. If so, you owe it to them to provide the service they hired you for. If they wanted you to keep a crowd (since they knew you weren't bringing a crowd unless you convinced them otherwise) your role that evening was to keep the crowd until the headliners came on. You do that by being interesting enough to not make more people leave than would otherwise have left if you hadn't played at all. In your case, you were supporting the main act. Your job there is to loosen up the crowd and get them ready for the headline. That means be good, but not better than them. (reality). There are countless stories where it went the other way. Usually those bands/acts didn't stay the opener long. But you do want to be aware of your role. If you don't know, ask. For a venue, it is all about getting people to stay and keep or strt drinking. In a noisy club, you just need to make noise sometimes and you've done your job. You don't want to piss people off because as they keep drinking, by the time the headliners go on, they may be pissed off and disruptive. Good for Punk crowds, not so good for others.

I could go on but you need to learn how to read a crowd, you should DEFINITELY entertain them, learn some songs for each crowd. At least one truly "on point" song that makes them happy is a must for professionals. In that case, a funny version of Nickleback would have served you well. You can do a folk version of any song from a rap to a metal song, pulling that out is a great weapon to wield. It doesn't mean you have to "sell out" it means you want to help the venue "sell." Bottom line: Are YOU having fun and are you helping your audience, your boss (the venue or headliner) have a good time? Bar gigs are all about that.

Brian

Thanks for sharing all the stories guys. I'm glad I started this thread. Interesting!

John

The bar didn't pay me or hire me. The band I opened for was hired to play the bar that night and they were expected to cover a specific amount of time and didn't have enough material. The guitar player of the band had just heard of me and someone referenced me, so they called me on the spot to see if I could fill some time and open, etc. It's been 14 years since then but if I remember correctly they paid me like $50 to play a short opening set. Thinking back, really the band shouldn't have accepted the paid gig if they couldn't cover their end of the deal with the bar, etc.



I definitely agree that being able to read a crowd was a tactic that I needed back then and didn't quite have just yet. I was just starting out. There is a point I did want to make though and follow up on. Having been yelled at by that man that night, played a key role in my growth as a performer and songwriter. I specifically went home that night and started working harder. I started reviewing my material and trying to think of ways to make it better, or scrap songs that were not working, etc. I began spending a little more time on new material, specifically lyrics and song structure. Had that never have happened, I may have had a higher comfort level that was not reasonable, etc. So I did learn something from the moment. I learned that I needed to always strive to improve, no matter what I'm doing. I did what I could to turn that negative into a positive.

Great post John. Elegantly stated. Applies to so many things.

Thanks Sunset!

Best, John

The industry history is full of stories of decisions made by people rejecting artists and Songs that later found great success.
"Nobody listens to guitar bands any more," said the label executive to The Beatles. Rejection.
The iconic Songs, "Somewhere Over The Rainbow" and "Summertime", from "The Wizard of Oz" and "Porgy and Bess" were almost not included in those two musicals, based on some Leadership Decision-Maker's opinion.
And the reasons for someone's opinion vary widely. It may be the mood they're in that day. It may be their personal tastes. Judgment by decision-makers and the general public are as varied as individuals themselves.
Mark ? (Can't think of his name!) tells of the 'ambience' factor, the opinion of the show based partly on the fact the audience is out at a 'party', with a drink in hand, friends around, attitude set to enjoy themselves.
A singer asked, "Do you have to be pretty to be a success?" Yes, 'cosmetics' is a factor. I was thinking about Madonna's Song, "Papa Don't Preach", and liking its Structure and production. She was a lovely young thing to look upon. Would a less attractive girl have had the same success? Unknown, unknowable.
I remember back when the world was young people showing up at the house with 'the new' album by someone and sometimes saying how much they liked it. We'd put it on and I didn't like it. I wondered why they did. But their reasons for 'liking' were not the same as mine for 'disliking'. My criteria were different, based on my 'training' in music appreciation from listening to the stuff I grew up with, and the personal experience of Song-Writing. But that's all anyone has to go on; their own 'training' for development of a criteria 'list' of values for evaluating a Lyric, the arrangement (accompaniment), the overall execution of the vocalization, the performance of instruments, the prosody of how it all 'marries' into the whole.
On a different day the 'decision-maker' might feel differently about a Song, or an artist. When the decision-maker is a Leadership Decision-Maker, deciding whether to promote a Song as a Publisher or Artist's Management, their opinion only matters a little more because of that 'Gate-Keeper' status. It's a judgment call based on their criteria. The general public will make their own judgment call about whether to lay down the coin of the realm to 'own' the Song, to pay attention as it is performed, or to watch the 30 TV's, talk about 'the game', the girls, their day, and ignore the music.
Play. Write. Your judgment call is the most important one. Do judge. Do self-critique. If you learn to get it right your success is more likely with the judgment call of all those other decision-makers, consumers in the Leadership Decision-Making in the industry, and the general public.
In summation, don't put too much stock in other people's 'opinion', even the professionals whose say-so opens the gate or closes it in your face. They've been wrong before, probably as much as they've been right.

Good points Gary! Best to have an honest opinion of your own work. Yes, there are many, many reasons for rejection. I remember a lot of them when I was dating. I remember one vividly... I ask this girl out for a date in high school, and was flatly rejected. She wasn't a "nice" girl. Years later I crossed her on the street, and she apologized for not going out with me. Dopey me, so, I ask her again that moment, and... She said no, she wasn’t interested. shot down twice.
John

John, you have an indomitable spirit.
There is a philosophy which may apply, obliquely, "If someone leaves you, let them go! They're doing you a favor!"

The real lesson is that we can't let someone else's opinion matter if they're hurtful towards us, indifferent to the discomfort they cause, or for whatever reason 'reject' what we offer.
We have to evaluate, determining whether their opinion has merit, but, we can't just grant them merit because they've got the big office and the big name or the big...whatever she had...We have to consider any feedback as Market Research, and, if it has merit, see if we can improve our product with it, taking it as constructive criticism, a critique with a generous eye toward improvement.

And we can't have all our eggs in that one basket. Our whole being should not be balanced on one Song, one opinion, one moment out of a whole day of moments, one girl, one day, or two days years apart. There might be a concept for a Song in that, but I don't know what it would be yet.

In about 9th grade I remember asking a girl for a picture. She said no. I thought she was pretty. She was a woman when the rest of us were still kids. I never asked her again. I saw a class picture decades later and wondered what I ever saw in her. At the time it seemed significant for a brief time. I got over it. I didn't have my heart set on the picture or any relationship beyond asking for it.

So, "Ram on! Give your heart to somebody, soon, right away." and if they don't want it, give it to somebody else.

Here's the quote I remember Gary:

"If you love someone, set them free. If they come back they're yours; if they don't they never were" -Richard Bach

John

A variation on the theme, the philosophy, "If someone leaves you, let them go. They're doing you a favor."
People get trapped in loveless relationships, committed by formal marriage, and stay there, suffering, until death do them part.
Shouldn't we be writing Songs about all this? LOL

Oh. I see I already said that here. Sorry!

Re: 'shot down twice'. She giveth, and she taketh away. I think she apologized to assuage her own sense of wrongdoing in the past, but time had made actually going on a date less practical. Again, nothing to take personal, more about her than about you. So be it. Moving on. lol

Years later I heard about how messed-up she was. I was lucky I didn't get involved Gary.

John

John, sounds like you got set up. Women will do that, they enjoy the power a predictable pattern..
I had a fling with a girl , we were on and off several times, at least four maybe five different times we started up again. Well, we ran into each other again this time maybe two years had passed, Imediately im thinking were gonna hook up again. So she says "Sooo, are you seeing anybody now?" I think , ok, were probably having dinner this weekend, I say enthusiastically "no". She says really? "i am"

Im look dohhh, she got me. Coulda been totally innocent on her part, but the cynical side of me said oh man she was waiting for this! there was no taking it back either, the cat was outta the bag. Only consolation was maybe she thought I was bsing about not seeing anyone,,,thats what I went with.

Well rejection is a part of life, nobody likes it, some never recover from it

Dont forget Michael Jordan got cut from his high school team as a freshman, imagine being the coach of a team who cut Michael Jordan? lol, fire that guy immediatley.

But i think talking about criticism from industry pros is a totally different thing than testing a song on another songwriter. There is merit in it, Nashville songwriters used to say that ANYBODY, could offer something. Doesnt have to be somebody in power or a pro calibre writer.

Now granted, most critiques are dumb and a waste of time, and serve no purpose other than to annoy. Its kind of like a teacher in school not wanting to give the A+, they HAVE to find something.

But i truly believe if somebody is floored by your song, and REALLY think its great, your not gonna hear a critique...maybe a crit on the mix or something. Cause at the end of the day, its either you like it or your dont.

Ouch. Double ouch.

Never forget.,..re-treads are unreliable and can be dangerous..

Quote from a movie that I cant remember....

"If you love someone, set them free. If they don't come back....seek them out and destroy them."

I learned that I needed to always strive to improve, no matter what I'm doing. I did what I could to turn that negative into a positive.[/quote]

I think no matter your pursuit, this is key to sustained success. It is the hardest thing to go from good enough to getting better at something you are good enough at.

Brian

The graveyard is full of people with better ideas. Sometimes those with worse ideas put them there. Other times they went there not understanding that "better" has no place in the corrupted real world. Only raw power and only if you are in the right club and no one here is in that club nor likely anyone you know or have met. There are shortcuts and ways in, but not many are palatable to most people, for good reason. Others are by birth only.

Very good topic and thread here. I agree, without that thick skin, you're not gonna get far. There are more rejections than not. I've been at this a long time, since the 90's I guess, and I keep chugging on. But I love songwriting and it's just something I must do LOL

Fdemetrio mentioned critiquing, it certainly isn't like it used to be. Back in the day we'd offer critique for the betterment of a song, as long as it was constructive critique. I've had some harsh critiques along the way, just made me a better writer. And I even know writers today that you don't dare touch their babies with any kind of critique. And they have a big ego. And if you ever go in a cowrite, leave your ego at the door. The song is king, and that's what all the writers need to concentrate on, writing a great song, and no matter if a line might be a great line, sometimes it doesn't belong in the song ... all depends. And no writer is better than the other.

And seeing what Brian mentioned about the songwriter who got the 3 cuts by an artist; I have read, that an artist can make a writers song a hit and only knows the song and not the writer(s). Writers don't get to rub elbows w/ those who take their songs to the top. So if anyone gets a major to cut their song, don't expect to be buddies with them. That's just the way it is. lol You're just another face in the crowd more or less.

Enjoyed this thread here, John.

It's changed very much that way. Part of it is that the focus changed to home recording, instead of the song. Now it's "good song, but you might need some EQ on the vocals"

The other part is that almost nobody writes to get cuts any more. Some still do or think about it, but if there's no goal to do anything with it, then there's no point in commenting on it.

It does get annoying reading the same response to every song. It's nice in a way, but also stupid in a way.

It's kind of like asking your mother if you're handsome...

Yes, it has changed a lot for sure. Many do write for themselves over commercial writing. A lot of folks put out their own stuff and pretty much aren't open to any critiques, comments, etc. I guess what can you say? Good song, I like it, - of course unless there something that doesn't make sense or maybe it doesn't matter to some, some say, it's open to interpretation. lol One or two in my small private group at FB will ask for critique, comments etc and might want to know how they could make a song better, and not necessarily for a commercial cut.

Getting a major cut is pretty much unreachable. They have their own camps, a manager who looks for songs from the Nashville writers already in their circle, publishing houses they already go to, etc. etc.

The recent 2 indie cuts, the artists have never recorded outside songs. So I feel honored they liked and considered cutting and releasing mine. Back in the early 2000's when I got indie cuts, many used the music only tracks to record their vocals to. Now indie artists have their own bands and don't use your music only track. They take it into a studio and have it all done by live players etc.

I only write one or two lyrics a month, I just enjoy it. At Broadjam and Spotify, I have 3 albums entitled Songwriter The Early Years Vol 1, 2, and 3, of my songs I wrote of my early work. (98 to 2004) Took some time off, wrote a couple more songs in 2013, took more time off and didn't get back into writing again til 2019. And still going. Just gonna enjoy the journey and see where it goes.

It's good you got cuts, I think country is the only genre where its POSSIBLE to get another artist to record your stuff but not likely any more either.

I guess critiques are a thing of the past.

Thank you, Fdemetrio. Yeah, critique days are gone. There are plenty of indie artists (up and coming as well) looking for songs, but it's always depends on what they are looking for. Sometimes it's the right ears at the right time.

Congratulation on your cuts Matilyn!

Best, John

Someone mentioned "Songwriter's Market". When that book came out, it was filled with real opportunities. Even Warner’s, BMG, Universal, Sony, etc... they were all listed. I've gotten personal phone calls from Geffen Music (through the Songwriters Market) inviting me to send more. Through the years the real publishers started dropping out. The last couple decades, they all dropped out. Now it's just a sham, filled with wanabe big shots with no contacts or success stories. Even my neighbor placed a publishing ad in the book. And he couldn't even get his mother to listen to your music – ha, ha.

John

Thank you, John. And yes, the music biz has changed a lot. Maybe one day the songwriters market book could be a collectable. LOL j/k Or at least a reflective look back on how things used to be. Ah, the good ol' days

Just freshening up a bit!