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#1160090 12/27/19 01:07 PM
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We've discussed this before.
I noticed that a Lyric I dashed off in the first Lyric Forum, "One Of Those Days", has garnered 400 views, while another right next to it has only 100.
Most 'viewers' would have nothing but the title to pique their interest enough to click and 'view'.
Nothing but those four words piqued my own interest in composing the Lyric.
Words on the printed page may have that potency of 'hooking' interest.
Whether they would have the same/similar effect when sung in Melody can not be ascertained.
I just think it interesting that level of views could be provoked by reading the title only.


There will always be another song to be written. Someone will write it. Why not you? www.garyeandrews.com
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Definitely very important if you're placing songs in a music library. If you want their search engines to pick your track, you should have at least one good descriptive word in the title. I imagine, as Gary said, a similar situation exists in getting online views.

Best, John smile

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This is something I have been interested in for a long time.As I understand it, the conventional wisdom, for good reason, is that the title should be the hook, as that is what people will remember about the song if it sticks in their head and it will lead to them finding it later. However, as music has moved online, i think in some ways songs have become like books. Something needs to grab the listener's attention to induce him/her to click on it. If you are an established star, your name would do it. If not, an intriguing title, even if it's not the hook, would seem to have a lot in its favor. Of course, an intriguing title that's also the hook would be best of all smile

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I hear the theory of this alot, usually from other songwriters. My personal opinion is that song titles dont matter as much as they used to.

I think it does matter as Gavin says who is releasing the song. Im pretty sure Taylor Swift could release a song that has a title that doesnt appear in the song and still sell millions.

If you look at it from a craft point of a view, a strong title is part of writing a good song.

The same argument could be made for the whole lyric. How much does the lyric matter? It depends, I know every word of Piano Man, Boys of Summer, Free Fallin, but I dont know the words to other songs that Ive heard THOUSANDS of times like Smoke on the Water, Life in the Fastlane, I know Shook Me All Night Long, but not Hells Bells, lol

It all depends i guess is the answer,. As a songwriter, its best to not leave anything to chance and write the best damn song you can write, title and all. Then your chance goes up a percent.

If your goal is to post the song here and nowhere else, it really doesnt matter what the hell you write.

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I just thought of an interesting paradox. Old and new music.

Whats funny is before the digital and internet booms songs were HEARD before seen, so the tune is what first sold the song, maybe the lyrics after revisiting the song more and more.

Today the song is often seen before its heard, by way of Spotify and Youtube and other things. So the title SHOULD matter more today, but today they are going with one word titles....so go figure...

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Originally Posted by John Lawrence Schick
Definitely very important if you're placing songs in a music library. If you want their search engines to pick your track, you should have at least one good descriptive word in the title. I imagine, as Gary said, a similar situation exists in getting online views.

Best, John smile


i don`t know if it still works like this...some name their songs to fall in line with major artists
like Garth Brooks for instance. "The Dance...others that write a song about a dance will name it...We dance...They dance
I dance. it would put that song in line with G.B. on the host boards like u-tube. it might bring a little more traffic to the song.
I don`t know ..heard that.
You can copywrite content, not tittles I believe.

Last edited by lane1777; 12/27/19 03:17 PM.


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one might save you from the other...Vincent
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Titles matter. It's the TITLE. And how the title/hook is used. It's the foundation, the theme, it's what you write to, what you develop, esp in country. Nashville pubs have stacks of cds on their desks to the ceiling. If your cd has a dull title, it's gonna sit there till they toss it. This is an elementary idea.

here's an anecdote...many, many years ago I submitted two poems to an annual college poetry magazine. I got antsy, and unprofessionally, I called 'em. Did my poems get published? We had thousands of submissions, there's no way I can remember them offhand and there's no way I'm rummaging through them to check. They're called Low Blue Book and Shelf Life. Oh yeah, I remember those! They got published.

Titles matter. books, movies, songs, plays.


Nashville demos etc:

https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/default.cfm?bandID=431939

other demos:

https://soundcloud.com/wabash-cannibal

Amazon Kindle books by Robert George you may enjoy:

1) Americana

2) Teenage Graceland

3) The Will to Be

4) Fort Mystery

5) Wheel Sea

6) My One True Love
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Titles matter in catching the attention of new listeners. The shorter the title, the better the odds it will be easy to remember. All bets are "off" if the song is not worth hearing. Then there is the "support factor" from folks on the inside. Without it... maybe a miracle will happen... if the song is good enough.

JLS mentioned an important factor as applicable to music libraries. He should know! We call him "The Man from Money Mountain!"

Happy 2020...

----Dave

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Originally Posted by Dave Rice
Titles matter in catching the attention of new listeners. The shorter the title, the better the odds it will be easy to remember. All bets are "off" if the song is not worth hearing. Then there is the "support factor" from folks on the inside. Without it... maybe a miracle will happen... if the song is good enough.

JLS mentioned an important factor as applicable to music libraries. He should know! We call him "The Man from Money Mountain!"

Happy 2020...

----Dave


Thanks for the build Dave. Maybe "Mr. Lucky". Which happens to be a title of a Mancini song: https://www.bing.com/search?q=mr%20...mp;cvid=84D2E2FA15E147F495797C2B9C0A0F5D


Best, John smile

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Checking two sets of my Songs posted in the Lyric Feedback Forum, one just below the other, one is running five-to-one on views, the other set still about two-to-one. Fascinating that all the 'viewer' can possibly know is the title. They haven't heard it. They don't know me. The only motive for clicking to view is whatever they perceive in those three or four words in the titles, side by side.
Titles are of extreme importance in the singing of the Song and getting listeners singing along, 'memorizing', 'learning' the Song, hopefully wanting to hear it again. But there's something strategic about what motivates them when all they have is words on the printed page.
I'm thinking about who the 'consumer' of Songs would be who would first encounter a Song title on the printed page, and how that may make the difference between them taking action then to 'hear' what that title implies...to them. I don't think it's something you can plan beyond your inspiration to write the Song. I don't think I can recommend that you 'manufacture' your Song to enable you to have a 'click-me' title. I think I hear those manufactured Songs on the radio and they don't interest me, often the title being the only interesting Line in the Song. I think, "They should have started with that Line and wrote a Song based on that idea; not wrote Lines so they could land on that idea as THE Hook/title." Which is what I perceive they did, as the Lines may 'lead up to' that title idea, or they may simply Rhyme up to it, either way, not meeting my criteria for paying attention and wanting to hear it again.
I note that in each of the sets of two Songs it is the second one that gets the lion's share of views. So it's not that they clicked on the first one, liked it and so they clicked the second one. They skip the first one, based on the title only, I think, and click the second one. Fascinating, to me.

Last edited by Gary E. Andrews; 01/13/20 09:09 AM.

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Originally Posted by Gary E. Andrews
Checking two sets of my Songs posted in the Lyric Feedback Forum, one just below the other, one is running five-to-one on views, the other set still about two-to-one. Fascinating that all the 'viewer' can possibly know is the title. They haven't heard it. They don't know me. The only motive for clicking to view is whatever they perceive in those three or four words in the titles, side by side.
Titles are of extreme importance in the singing of the Song and getting listeners singing along, 'memorizing', 'learning' the Song, hopefully wanting to hear it again. But there's something strategic about what motivates them when all they have is words on the printed page.
I'm thinking about who the 'consumer' of Songs would be who would first encounter a Song title on the printed page, and how that may make the difference between them taking action then to 'hear' what that title implies...to them. I don't think it's something you can plan beyond your inspiration to write the Song. I don't think I can recommend that you 'manufacture' your Song to enable you to have a 'click-me' title. I think I hear those manufactured Songs on the radio and they don't interest me, often the title being the only interesting Line in the Song. I think, "They should have started with that Line and wrote a Song based on that idea; not wrote Lines so they could land on that idea as THE Hook/title." Which is what I perceive they did, as the Lines may 'lead up to' that title idea, or they may simply Rhyme up to it, either way, not meeting my criteria for paying attention and wanting to hear it again.
I note that in each of the sets of two Songs it is the second one that gets the lion's share of views. So it's not that they clicked on the first one, liked it and so they clicked the second one. They skip the first one, based on the title only, I think, and click the second one. Fascinating, to me.


I think titles on a written word lyric forum have to matter. It's whatever catches the eye. But i think weird titles or funny titles or stupid titles can have the same affect, it doesnt neccessarily mean its a good song title. Shock value, and yeah more people will click it if its more interesting than I love you. If you said "I love you 9% more than yesterday" it would catch attention. Will it be a good song...errr who knows?

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I look at Song titles like (Job Interviews) lol you gotta dress for the part. If I see a cool title, I am way more willing to look at it over a title that says "I love you" How many of us will take this information that is being stated about the subject and actually use it in their next song? I go to the lyric forum to poke around and see things are progressing, but if I see a title that is just so so, I will pass on it. I think if you start with a great title, the song will practically write itself...:)-Dana

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I'm watching/listening to this on Youtube, from TAXI, with Joe Brandt, an advisory on 'tagging', the metadata you can add to things on the net to get more search engine hits, I think. I'm fourteen minutes in and I think it may be relevant.
It's an hour and 29 minutes so it takes a bit of time to find out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eysUV-ps0Y&feature=youtu.be

Having been born in the time of the dinosaurs I still have a concept of a 'reader' as a person with eyes seeing words on a page.
But computers can go get whatever data you ask them for, searching through billions of words in electronic storage to 'see' and bring it back and show it to you.
That may be why two Songs right next to each other in the Lyric Feedback list get different numbers of views. The computer leads them to one 'title' and they never even see the other one. The right title and other associated wording can make them 'see'.

SEO - Search Engine Optimization.

QUOTE FROM THE VIDEO:
On this episode of TAXI TV, expert Joe Brandt, joins us to go over the most common mp3 tag mistakes and how to avoid them! You will learn how good metadata and tagging can help you get more music placements and get more income. It's a very overlooked part in the music business, but it couldn't be MORE important for your success.

Joe is on the show by popular demand, because so many of you couldn't stop raving about his music business class on mp3 tag mistakes and metadata at this year's TAXI Road Rally Convention! So we thought we would dedicate a whole TAXI TV episode to the topic to further your knowledge. We want to set you guys up for success. We try to do as much as we can to help you avoid these common and, often times, silly mistakes along the way.

Don't release your music OR EVEN upload your music until you do these 3 critical things:

- Choose the right title

- Check your levels

- Add the metadata - we cover why it's important and how to do it RIGHT!

Put in the extra few minutes of work after you finish a beautiful piece of music that you believe in. And pay attention to your mp3 tags people!! smile (You'll thank us later when all of your deals start coming in and when music executives can't stop complimenting your attention to detail to make their jobs easier!!!)

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The power of the title to persuade a listener to give the song a spin...is the last thing I hope to depend upon. It matters, of course...but I just don't think about that baited hook aspect of a song title so much as I think about the REAL name of the song, which is nearly always obvious, clear as a bell. Most every song ends up with an obvious name, and if you name it something else, listeners will probably end up calling it by the real name anyway. It's a concern I might entertain if I wanted to put it in a library, but the title was sort of misleading or meant to be wry...but otherwise, I rarely question the title, because it tends to show itself rather than be assigned.

I only once wrote a song to fit a title, in a JPF challenge to write to a title. It led to a fun song, but I really never compose that way naturally. I'm more prone to painting a mind film of some sort or other, and that film nearly always has a name that I really don't need to question.

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With instrumentals it seems to come down to a central theme. But that could be way off from perceptions. But some cases there are titles that don't seem to have much to do with the song. With the lyrics and vocals. Even though it did to the creator.
It seems how to make it make sense in one's own way.

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Originally Posted by Mark Kaufman
The power of the title to persuade a listener to give the song a spin...is the last thing I hope to depend upon. It matters, of course...but I just don't think about that baited hook aspect of a song title so much as I think about the REAL name of the song, which is nearly always obvious, clear as a bell. Most every song ends up with an obvious name, and if you name it something else, listeners will probably end up calling it by the real name anyway. It's a concern I might entertain if I wanted to put it in a library, but the title was sort of misleading or meant to be wry...but otherwise, I rarely question the title, because it tends to show itself rather than be assigned.

I only once wrote a song to fit a title, in a JPF challenge to write to a title. It led to a fun song, but I really never compose that way naturally. I'm more prone to painting a mind film of some sort or other, and that film nearly always has a name that I really don't need to question.


DING DING DING! We have a winner!

As for Song Title: How about the "Truth In Advertising" approach. Name it something that describes the point of it so your listener can sample the goods. OR... how about make a title that pleases yourself. Because nothing your can ever do will please everyone, or likely even most people. So why worry about it? Anyone who names a song something only because you hope to please others, is likely going to turn off the one person who you should always care about pleasing: YOURSELF.

Ideally, this is the end goal. Be yourself. Learn techniques. Filter the results of new techniques you learn through your brain so it becomes YOUR song, not inspired by a multinational corporation who sees you and your music as no more than CHUM to use to lure in dollars or yen or yuan or Euros or (fill in the money). They HATE you and your existence. If you view them in that reality, you'll be way ahead of the game.

Once you write YOUR song, then hope the results ALSO connect to other people. If they are honest and reflect truth, (so much truth no matter how personal and unique yours is is universal) they have a decent chance of being appealing. 3 chords and the truth works.


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
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"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

"It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..." -Brian Austin Whitney

"Sometimes all you have to do to inspire humans to greatness is to give them a reason and opportunity to do something great." -Brian Austin Whitney
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J
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J
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I dont think the title alone would make people rush to hear it, but in a lyric forum it may generate a lot of curiosity, when I read the title
One of these days, first thing I thought of was the pink floyd song (one of these days)
same with Days like these, a famous Van Morrison track
If I posted a lyric titled say Purple Rain, a lot of people would probably click on it just to see because it's a Prince classic., if it was a complete song with music/vocal it would have to be totally different and pretty awesome and probably cut by someone famous to get a second listen,
Titles are not subject to copyright,
The older you get and the amount of music you've listened to the more titles are stuck in your brain,if a teenage kid who had never heard the beatles, wrote a song say called (please please me), as a slow heartfelt ballad (which are all the rage right now) given the right promotion it might sell bundles
So personally I think song content/melody are more important than the title
all the best,john.


please visit my soundclick page to hear songs recorded by musicians world wide

https://www.soundclick.com/artist/default.cfm?bandid=429802
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Yeah I remember this thread , I gave my two cents, never got a penny back . but I like what I write come to think of it.

I kinda lean towards john paragreens ideas. A song title can't matter when its not seen. Its a visual package almost a promo for a song. But when you click on the radio , and a song is playing, and your liking it, the title didn't matter. And how many times are you saying, what's that song called? You want to know for reference, its more of an administrative thing.

But nowadays with the likes of YouTube , spotify or a forum, the title is sometimes the first thing seen, before the song is heard, that is if you're a surfer and like going down lists of songs. Then a title might be the difference between you clicking it or not .

But if the object is to write a great song, A great title is certainly part of the equation, just covering all your bases.


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