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#1160336 01/06/20 01:09 PM
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I'm sitting here listening to a Radio Station playing today's (Today's Offering 2020) Country Music for over 30 minutes. Man what a mishmash of nothing! Every song sounds the same.

For a great production you can Google START MOVIN' (In my direction) by Sal Mineo a big hit in the 50's where great music still resides!

Last edited by Ray E. Strode; 01/06/20 01:10 PM.

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Originally Posted by Ray E. Strode
I'm sitting here listening to a Radio Station playing today's (Today's Offering 2020) Country Music for over 30 minutes. Man what a mishmash of nothing! Every song sounds the same.

For a great production you can Google START MOVIN' (In my direction) by Sal Mineo a big hit in the 50's where great music still resides!


Eh well, that country from the 50's was all garbage. Country from the 1920's is the real stuff...

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While there is still some country music out there that sounds traditional, and when it is put out by good artists it still sells very well, traditional country didn't have drums or steel guitars, and it wasn't even electrified. I like the fact that today it includes all of that and more. What I don't like are all the songs that go away from the storyteller mode of country music and try to impose any "Style" of music on it that they can just to make a buck. Country pop has been around since the 50's and so has country rock. Country has survived through all of it, even the newer ones out there that try to make country hip-hop and country rap, two more conflicting styles I don't think I could find. Country music will continue to survive, and thrive because so many people still love the storyteller side of it.


Have a goodun,

John W. Selleck BMI Songwriter
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Unfortunately the young people think that is how country is suppose to be, rap, hip hop, etc. mixed in along with pop, rock etc. they think real country is garbage, The young people that live on fast food think a gourmet meal is the pits. Look at some of the clothes they wear, what we would throw away as worn out is what is in as their style. Not to mention the skin piercing and tattoos that they think cool. Let's not mention haircuts. I guess they are just making their mark. I just wonder what the next generation will do to make their mark.

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I think most of us went though the making our mark stage when we were younger, at least most everyone I know. What amazes me is that the publishers/producers/artists haven't realized that when many of the big acts put out traditional sounding songs they sell very well. I don't think it's the kids that are trying to change country music as much as the big wigs in the industry itself.


Have a goodun,

John W. Selleck BMI Songwriter
A day without learning is a day lost forever.

www.soundclick.com/johnsings
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Reading things like this is always funny to me. I am wondering if I will say the same in 30-40 years... (My hope is "no", but I'm sure that's what you said 30, 40 or 50 years ago). Maybe one day I'll understand and will say things like: "Oh, that garbage they're playing today in 2055. We had real music back in the early 2000s".

I am one of the younger folks on here, and I much prefer today's music over yesteryear's music. Doesn't mean that I can't appreciate some classics, but if given the choice, I'll listen to newer music. For the record, I don't wear piercings (not judging anyone who does, it's their bodies), usually dress in a polo shirt and jeans (without any holes) and only eat fast food if absolutely necessary (feed me a steak or grilled salmon over a burger any day).

I do agree that story telling these days isn't a priority for many artists/songwriters and hope this will change for the better again. Having said that, if you look for it, you can find even modern music with really well written story lines. It's not all that bad folks!


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Morning Folks:

Country Music like everything else in the music world, evolves and changes as time passes. It isn't all bad but the folks "in-charge" in Nashville never seem to hear the thoughts and wishes of traditionalist listeners. There is a reason for this, I believe... but cannot prove. I have not purchased a Country song from any label or Genre "camp" in years. Why, you ask? I was born and raised in the era of the Radio audience... where they would play songs, we would listen, ignore the commercials... and most stations would take requests via the land-line telephone. Our only other choice was to buy a record. Many of us were not able to afford a record player for those "platters."

Now, 50 years later, I spend more time writing songs and recording (or re-recording) them than I have time for listening. When I do get around to listening, most of it is done here at JPF since the other music creator sites are sinking all around us. I want to encourage people who have not "made it big" in music circles... and discover those who appear to have the "right stuff" to go on to the next level.

Today, the availability of music on multiple platforms or marketing outlets is almost endless. Country music appears to be the least popular genre if I remember the details of the last Neilsen Report. Apple and all it's imitators have mostly what passes for Pop and then there is RAP and Rock. True, they offer Country but all their marketing algorythms tend to aim the listener at "playlists" the labels are pushing.

Eventually, the perfect platform or source for buying or listening to music will emerge from the haze. Until then, it's every man/woman for themselves... unless you happen to be a sheep in listener's clothing and simply follow the herd.

Dare to like what sounds good to you... and ignore the "carnival barkers" who want you to hear only what they are pushing at you.

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Actually Dave, Country music is more popular with young people today than it ever was. When i get in the car with my niece she has country stations on all the time. And I think the reason for that is, country today although not what it used to be is still better than the hopeless, lifeless, stupid pop music. She'd much rather listen to today's country stars than todays pop start, even though they often cross. And frankly, id prefer hearing modern country to modern pop, at least real instruments can be heard.

But we also have to remember all styles of music still exist and still have people playing it and people listening to it. Little Steven's underground garage reminds us that even garage rock that we thought died in the 60's is still being written and performed by young artists. I love some of the "new" rock that's out there, or new stamps on old rock, but most people have never heard of any of it

The only difference is we dont hear 90% of music because the radio/media dominates, so most music, even classic country and bluegrass, and country two step is still being made by young artists, we just dont hear about it

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Country music has always progressed toward “Pop” music. Hillbilly music in the 1920’s, Blue Grass/ Gospel – Blues – Rockabilly – John Denver Folk Country Style – Soft Rock Country – Rock Country - all the way to today’s Pop Country (which was yesteryear’s pop music). Difficult to find old style country being created today. Probably because the ideas dried-up, because of its limitations. Old Country was restrained by acceptable chord changes, lyrics, melodies, and instrumentation.

Best, John smile

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Its hard if you listen to the radio looking for it. But, Cody Johnson is pretty traditional: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DS5wxB2poTA&list=PLNxW6wd3rFDn5MDqXXOacLHc27f6iDJAH

Aaron Watson; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSilWoILcZg

and how bout the kid who won American Idol Scotty McCreary, hes at least got the voice of old school country

In the rock world I can assure you 90% of people you ask will have never heard of....most of the stuff on underground radio.

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How bout Shane Owens. All The Beer in Alabama
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gx-kWCVzTko

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Forgot about Mo Pitney. And on the ladies' side of the ledger, Texan Jamie Lin Wilson is a breath of fresh air. I would consider her the best female country singer to come along since Janie Fricke some four decades ago.

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Boy this guy Luke Bell. I used to laugh at my Dads music, its still not my cup of tea but this guy gets my respect just for being who he is and doing the music he loves.

Makes me like it just for that reason.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRcwP8XhMWs

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All music is still being made.... Hey if you heard this rocker, you wouldnt think it was released in 2010 and after, sounds more like 1967, Beatles, Who...

Amazing there are still bands doing this, even today. Knowing about it and hearing it is another story

Cool Stuff!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIL8IhIngEM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H76hBVukvQ4

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The biggest difference in listening to top country music radio today is how much coal you have to sift through to find one diamond. For me, getting my hands that dirty isn't worth it.


Have a goodun,

John W. Selleck BMI Songwriter
A day without learning is a day lost forever.

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Originally Posted by John W. Selleck
The biggest difference in listening to top country music radio today is how much coal you have to sift through to find one diamond. For me, getting my hands that dirty isn't worth it.


Well that's part of the problem. Finding it, or even knowing that you can look for it. Most people expect it to come to them, which is what most casual listeners do. If I didnt have the internet, and frankly if music wasnt free, I wouldnt know most of the stuff ive heard of.

I contend there is still disco being made, still classical being made, still country two step being made, still garage rock and rock n roll. Still surf music, still progressive rock, still heavy metal, still soul. Still classic folk and blues and jazz.

And if you dont believe the blues is alive argue with Buddy Guy...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIn_gA2XwL0

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Well,
I was talking about country music on the Radio. Luke Bell sounds good but I don't think he is being played on the radio. No doubt there are many good artists playing somewhere that deserve to be played on the air. Unless you are on a Major Label you can forget it. And I'm not trying to go back to the 50's. Geronimo!


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Originally Posted by Ray E. Strode
Well,
I was talking about country music on the Radio. Luke Bell sounds good but I don't think he is being played on the radio. No doubt there are many good artists playing somewhere that deserve to be played on the air. Unless you are on a Major Label you can forget it. And I'm not trying to go back to the 50's. Geronimo!


I know we always call whats on the radio as "todays" music... its not, its just the music that sells at the time.

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Music doesn't go backwards. Today's music LISTERNERS who listen to mainstream radio, (which is how around 90% of people get their initial exposure to artists and songs) are different now. They don't listen the same way everyone once did. So they don't listen to the same songs, types of music, etc. It's a different marketplace. If you are over 35, you have no connection to the modern marketplace because that music is not for you. Labels release thousands of product a year. Very few gain traction with the public. But the key is that you DON'T HAVE TO LISTEN TO ANY OF IT.It is not the music for you, and if you are not a CUSTOMER of that music, you have to find what you want elsewhere. It's called THE MARKETPLACE.And your parents, grandparents and great grandparents, didn't care for your music either. A fact of life you have to accecpt sooner or later. Or you don't have to do that either and can spend your life complaining about things you can't do anything about. Always are choices.

MAB

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I don't know how "radio" was 20+ years ago. I do agree, today's FM radio and satellite radio (Sirius) is poor when it comes to their playlists. It seems like they have 20 songs on repeat and that's it. However, needless to say, there is way more out there. I use Apple Music and Spotify to find new music and I really can't complain about the amount of new music I genuinely enjoy. I'm genre agnostic which obviously helps as I can get into everything from Pop to Country to Rock and beyond. There is good music out there, you just have to actively look for it to find something to your personal liking. If you just passively wait for it, you're stuck with the 20 songs with the highest budget at the time.

Songs I currently really enjoy:

Country: Old Dominion "One Man Band"
Pop: Alex Benjamin "If I Killed Someone For You"
Rock: Fall Out Boy "Bob Dylan"
Electro/Pop: The Chainsmokers "Who Do You Love"

Many more, but those just came to mind on top of my head.

By the way, you can find "real" instruments in almost any genre these days, even in Pop.


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Personally, the only reason I care at all, is that with all the garbage that's on the radio today, it so much harder for a storyteller to pitch his songs. Then add in all of the other new things that are making it so much harder and you have the true plight of today's country songwriters.


Have a goodun,

John W. Selleck BMI Songwriter
A day without learning is a day lost forever.

www.soundclick.com/johnsings
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Humm,
Several years ago my wife and I took a long trip around the country, out to Washington State to visit a sister and also my wife's sister in Yelm, Washington. On the trip I tuned in to many radio stations along the way. Mostly some kind of pop but no country that I can remember There was nothing I could find that was any good. I think I read where FD said his sister or child listened to today's country because it was at least listenable. I grew up on the Country coming out of Nashville in the 50's because it was really good. A few pop artists recorded some country such as Dean Martin, Ray Charles, and even Kay Starr.

I started to become familiar with Classical Music in 1967. It is truly amazing a lot of that music of how great it is. Lots of great music from the past that still sells.


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Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
Music doesn't go backwards. Today's music LISTERNERS who listen to mainstream radio, (which is how around 90% of people get their initial exposure to artists and songs) are different now. They don't listen the same way everyone once did. So they don't listen to the same songs, types of music, etc. It's a different marketplace. If you are over 35, you have no connection to the modern marketplace because that music is not for you. Labels release thousands of product a year. Very few gain traction with the public. But the key is that you DON'T HAVE TO LISTEN TO ANY OF IT.It is not the music for you, and if you are not a CUSTOMER of that music, you have to find what you want elsewhere. It's called THE MARKETPLACE.And your parents, grandparents and great grandparents, didn't care for your music either. A fact of life you have to accecpt sooner or later. Or you don't have to do that either and can spend your life complaining about things you can't do anything about. Always are choices.

MAB


Alot of old farts thought The Beatles were awful, so change certainly plays a role. At the same time, when I played this guy Luke Bell, I liked him immediately. Im not a big country fan either, but it was almost refreshing to hear something so old school...

Music tends to go in cycles, so its not unusual for grand parents and youngins to agree on music, while the parents dont. There is nostalgia for every decade too. Many kids arent happy with pop culture in their own day, they either go backwards or look for something so different.

But top 40 radio, popular artists like Lady Gaga, Taylor Swift, Ed Sheeran are what mainstream considers great music. Im indifferent to what mainstream media thinks of music. They have been trying to tell us what good music is since radio started, if you want the music you like, its out there. Most casual listeners just assume its gone and never coming back, yet its all over youtube and spotify and everywhere, only its not advertised so nobody knows about it.

Also, we get older. Fact of life. Music was so important to us as teenagers, cause we didnt have a care in the world, nothing else really mattered. Once life kicks in theres less and less time for it, then before we realize it we listen to radio and say what the hell happened?

Nothing. I never liked the music on radio for the most part, An occasional song comes on that I do like. But that doesnt mean its not out there being made, our kind of music is being made every minute of the day...so hard to find it when you dont even know you should be looking for it.

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One of the things I have always had to listen to is how one successive generation complains about the music of the next generation. It's really acute in country music, because historically country was steeped in one main tradition. But there were complaints in each generation. One of the reasons I had suggested all of you interested in country watch the Ken Burns series "The History of Country Music" was because it focused a lot on the dissagreements through the years. There were great divisions in the 20's and 30's between the "Maybelle Carter traditional country" and the Jimmie Rodgers "Black music" version. They really didn't like each other and critiques were continually dividing sides on "what qualified as country."

You can go on through the 40's, 50's, 60's and on and on, groups of people that complained when they got away from banjos, fiddles, and got into drums and electric instruments. Charlie Rich burning the announcement of John Denver winning the Entertainer of the Year award with a cigarette lighter. Burns has all of this in it unlike anything I've ever seen before. But I already knew much of it, beccause I was lucky enough to work with musicians writers, artists, producers, labels, publishers, from those earlier eras. People that complained that Hank Senior didn't deserve all the credit he got on writing because his publisher, Wesley Rose contributed a lot to his songs.

And all of those people from other eras HATED what they heard on the radio at that time, things that we consider classic now. You should have been around for the fire venom at Garth Brooks because he was just a "Rock and roller with lasers and flames stage show and was not country." So the complaints have always been there. In fact, that is the only thing that has never changed. As I always say one day I think they'll find a cave drawing with a cave father telling his cave son, how they did it "back in his day."

One of the frustrating thing for me has always been seeing some of my friends who are as good or much much better, who never get the fame they deserve. Some amazing songs and talents that just never get the breaks and move home. Two scream to mind when these subjects come up. Because they are as traditional as theyu come, yet updated attitudes twoard music. Clint Bullard, who moved to Key West, and Scott Southworth, who has been making a name for himself overseas. Their music is tremendous, and they are exactly what most of the people looking for that type of music would love, but they will never get the accolades they deserve.

And at the same time, many of the people that write the songs that so many people complain about, have other songs that are incredible, and you would think would be hit songs, but they never get the traction some of the other stuff they do. And the stories and realities of songs that had been around for years and decades before actually catching fire. Songs like THE GAMBLER, WIND BENEATH MY WINGS, HOUSE THAT BUILT ME, YOU SAY IT BEST WHEN YOU SAY NOTHING AT ALL, that now are standards, yet took forever to get cut and sometimes even getting cut before they are hits.

It's a strange business. But things are out there. They really are. That is what the Internet does. Personally, I use the "Alexia echo dot" where I can say "Alexia, play..." and pull up just about every concievable song in history. But honestly, I don't listen to a lot of modern music. I know what is going on mostly because I deal wity younger artist wanna be's who come in with their influences, they tell me people they like, and I'll pull up videos from those people and listen.Then I try to make them explain why they like them. Most of the time, I don't see much in them. Not a big fan of Sheeran or Taylor Swift, however have a lot of respect for their being able to carve out careers in a very difficult time. But again, I am not a CUSTOMER for their music. I don't care for rap or hip hop either. Just not for me. But I don't sit around and complain because other people like it.

And that's the inherent problem I have had with people that just seem to complain about everything. I've heard it from every place you can imagine, and it just never appealed to me. When I first moved to town, I ran into very successful players, musicians, writers who complained about EVERYTHING and while I might agree, I just didn't want to engage in it. You get a real reality check when you sit down with a huge hit writer and the first hour of the writing session is about how terrible everything in the world is. There are quite a few hit writers who ask to write with me and I turn down just because of that very thing. I've seen what has happened. Don't need to rehash it from someone else and waste time.

But that's my take.
MAB

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Humm,
For the most part I have never heard much complaining about yesterday's music. There was the rule about not allowing Drums on the Grand Opry. Then when Duane Eddie came on the Opry and was to play his big Hit Rebel Rouser they didn't want the Saxaphone to be allowed. Of course in a lot of places there was a barrier of Chicken Wire put up in front of the stage to deflect the beer bottles when someone was unhappy with something an Artist played.


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Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
One of the things I have always had to listen to is how one successive generation complains about the music of the next generation. It's really acute in country music, because historically country was steeped in one main tradition. But there were complaints in each generation. One of the reasons I had suggested all of you interested in country watch the Ken Burns series "The History of Country Music" was because it focused a lot on the dissagreements through the years. There were great divisions in the 20's and 30's between the "Maybelle Carter traditional country" and the Jimmie Rodgers "Black music" version. They really didn't like each other and critiques were continually dividing sides on "what qualified as country."

You can go on through the 40's, 50's, 60's and on and on, groups of people that complained when they got away from banjos, fiddles, and got into drums and electric instruments. Charlie Rich burning the announcement of John Denver winning the Entertainer of the Year award with a cigarette lighter. Burns has all of this in it unlike anything I've ever seen before. But I already knew much of it, beccause I was lucky enough to work with musicians writers, artists, producers, labels, publishers, from those earlier eras. People that complained that Hank Senior didn't deserve all the credit he got on writing because his publisher, Wesley Rose contributed a lot to his songs.

And all of those people from other eras HATED what they heard on the radio at that time, things that we consider classic now. You should have been around for the fire venom at Garth Brooks because he was just a "Rock and roller with lasers and flames stage show and was not country." So the complaints have always been there. In fact, that is the only thing that has never changed. As I always say one day I think they'll find a cave drawing with a cave father telling his cave son, how they did it "back in his day."

One of the frustrating thing for me has always been seeing some of my friends who are as good or much much better, who never get the fame they deserve. Some amazing songs and talents that just never get the breaks and move home. Two scream to mind when these subjects come up. Because they are as traditional as theyu come, yet updated attitudes twoard music. Clint Bullard, who moved to Key West, and Scott Southworth, who has been making a name for himself overseas. Their music is tremendous, and they are exactly what most of the people looking for that type of music would love, but they will never get the accolades they deserve.

And at the same time, many of the people that write the songs that so many people complain about, have other songs that are incredible, and you would think would be hit songs, but they never get the traction some of the other stuff they do. And the stories and realities of songs that had been around for years and decades before actually catching fire. Songs like THE GAMBLER, WIND BENEATH MY WINGS, HOUSE THAT BUILT ME, YOU SAY IT BEST WHEN YOU SAY NOTHING AT ALL, that now are standards, yet took forever to get cut and sometimes even getting cut before they are hits.

It's a strange business. But things are out there. They really are. That is what the Internet does. Personally, I use the "Alexia echo dot" where I can say "Alexia, play..." and pull up just about every concievable song in history. But honestly, I don't listen to a lot of modern music. I know what is going on mostly because I deal wity younger artist wanna be's who come in with their influences, they tell me people they like, and I'll pull up videos from those people and listen.Then I try to make them explain why they like them. Most of the time, I don't see much in them. Not a big fan of Sheeran or Taylor Swift, however have a lot of respect for their being able to carve out careers in a very difficult time. But again, I am not a CUSTOMER for their music. I don't care for rap or hip hop either. Just not for me. But I don't sit around and complain because other people like it.

And that's the inherent problem I have had with people that just seem to complain about everything. I've heard it from every place you can imagine, and it just never appealed to me. When I first moved to town, I ran into very successful players, musicians, writers who complained about EVERYTHING and while I might agree, I just didn't want to engage in it. You get a real reality check when you sit down with a huge hit writer and the first hour of the writing session is about how terrible everything in the world is. There are quite a few hit writers who ask to write with me and I turn down just because of that very thing. I've seen what has happened. Don't need to rehash it from someone else and waste time.

But that's my take.
MAB


I assume popular music is popular for a reason. I dont begrudge anyone who succeeds in the "hollywood" of music, and I dont complain about "crap" music. I just dont listen to it. What good does listening to top 40 radio and saying everything sucks? The only time complaining is valid is if you are a work place or in a restaurant or in a store where you cant control whats being played.

Somebody has to like it, and millions do. If thats your goal, you should immerse yourself in it, and listen to it and learn all about how it's structured and written, as you should whatever music you like and want to play. It does annoy me a little that people assume if you dont win a grammy or even nominated you're not any good. And that the best of the best in music are the ones at award shows.

I dont remember a time when I liked what was played on pop radio.Ocassional song here and there as always. Even as a teen learning guitar I listened to The Who and The Stones, when most folks just listened to the popular stuff of the time.

As you have said music is worth what somebody is willing to pay for it, regardless of what anyone else thinks. It's one giant subjective pool

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One of the nicest things about being a senior is that I don't have to impress anyone about the type of music or artist that I listen to, or anything else for that matter. I am not a performing artist because I don't play any instruments anymore but I sing tons of karaoke, which most real performers say they hate. I sing because I have loved to sing since I was little, and I have amazed a lot of my audiences by the songs I sing, everything from early 20th century torch songs to Etta, to 60's Motown, to classic country, to some of today's country, to Adele etc. As I have said many times, I love all music that isn't about hate. I don't hate hip hop or rap but I don't listen to it because much of it is vulgar and hate filled. I know there is some that is not but I won't listen through the filth to get to the ones that are not. I dislike this as much as when comedians decided they needed to use jokes with a shock value to get their audiences to laugh. I still believe having morals is a good thing and passing them along to your children and grandchildren is even better.


Have a goodun,

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A day without learning is a day lost forever.

www.soundclick.com/johnsings
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Ray, The reason you never heard it was because in the older days, you didn't have 24-7 news cycles, huge internet sites and television programming dedicated to showing the seedy underbelly of everything and the tendency to use controversy to fuel viewership and fan base. Also, country was always an extended family and mostly lived by our mothers telling us that if you didn't have something good to say, don't say anything. You also probably didn't come face to face with a lot of people inside the industry, again, writers, artists, musicians studio owners, producers, agents, management people, publishers, who publicly were all smiles and handshakes but behind the scenes held grudges, interoffice career sabatoge and a very big sense of self preservation. When you are fighting for budget funding or trying to gain market share, knocking competition out of your way is pretty standard. Not as much as the "stab in the back" elements, but plenty of negitivity.

From firing Hank Sr. from the Grand Old Opry, refusing to allow Elvis in, drums in country music, electric guitars, the "pop" and "country politan" influences, to Hank Junior doing an entire song and video "WE ARE YOUNG COUNTRY" to make the point that musical styles change, but the heart is still there. There has always been a LOT of jealousy, being replaced, and elements of drama involved in all music. But there is still a sense of family at the same time. And to a point, that is still there.

Now in a Twitter universe, where everything is out in the open, you see and hear more of it. Thank you Internet. I liked it a lot better when we all liked each other and kept the negativity to ourselves.

MAB

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Um, yes,
When I was in the Navy they used to say when a sailor wasn't bitching he wasn't happy. A lot of truth there.
and
i saw some petty jealousy in Nashville when I came thru there in March of 1963. I had written a song in the Motel I stayed at, I had my Guitar with me. I went into a Hole in the Wall Studio probably on Music Row and wanted to put the song on tape and go to a publisher to see if I could get it published, etc. Well, the guy that had the Hole in the Wall Studio, basically a Microphone on a stand and a Tape Recorder told me point blank if I didn't belong to the Musicians Union I could not play that guitar! And I doubt if things have changed that much since then. Probably much worse.


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Hmmm. Yes Ray, a lot has changed since then,
Most notably, the Union has less than no power now.
Total right to work state and almost no one is even in the Union any more, even though the president, Dave Pomeroy, is a friend of mine and a goodie guy. I was a member for about ten years and all I ever did was pay fines.

The town is on hypersonic change and most people don’t even recognize it from two or three years ago. Just like everything in life. But what is considered “country” is in the ear of the beholder.

Here is one I thought you’d enjoy.
Last year I did one of my “Songwriter tours” (day long private workshops) with three soon to graduate high school students. They were two girls and one guy from West Virginia and all considered themselves future stars.
I asked them all what they wanted their music to be and one of the girls said:
“Country. But not that old style traditional sounding stuff like Taylor Swift.”

“Old” is in the ear of the beholder.

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Two LOLs in your last post Marc.

1. Unions. I can't agree more. It doesn't hold much power these days and frankly, most musicians are better off not joining it. There is only a small group of musicians who can actually benefit from being a member. Of the 30(ish) session musicians we work with, only one is a union member and not a happy one.

2. Hmm, "old style like Taylor"... Maybe you don't speak Generation Zish Marc, she might have said "But not that old style traditional sounding stuff.... pause....like....pause....Taylor Swift" as in, not that old stuff, but like the what Taylor Swift did? I'm just kidding you. I can see how Taylor Swift is perceived as "traditional" country when compared to Kelsea Ballerini or Maren Morris.


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Well,
I dunno Marc. Not too long ago my grand daughter wanted to listen to some Mozart! So I loaned her some of my Mozart CD's.
Old stuff like Taylor Swift? What's the world coming to??? Hank must be turning over in his grave!


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A person's motive for 'liking' music is a factor to consider. More than once someone showed up at the house with 'the new' music. It took me a while to realize they weren't looking for what I was looking for. Some, I realized, were just looking for something new, motivated by being the one who had 'the new' release and sharing it. Others weren't listening for intelligent Lyric content, coherent meaning. They weren't really paying attention to the Song as a communication of a Singer-Character's story, or even the 'new' work of the musicians performing the accompanying arrangement.
That difference in what we're each looking for...listening for...what we're each making our judgment on accounts for the difference in whether we agree we're satisfied with the listening experience.
Ears/minds trained in the 'flowering' of the 1960's when A.M. radio delivered a stream of diverse Song styles, with each set of players putting their individual take on guitar work, keyboard work, percussive work, and Songwriting exploring diverse Lyrical ideas and Melodic vocalization possibilities, have a different frame of reference for what we desire/demand for our time and dollar.
I get bored with the 'new' country, or the 'new' rock, finding I'm not listening and noticing because the Song ends and I have no idea what I just heard, no idea what was in the Lyric, and no 'ear worm' retention of the Melody and THE Hook phrases; therefore, no desire to hear it again. I had Public Radio on for a while last night 89.1 FM and got bored with the music. All those Songs had jumped through all the hoops to get to the airwaves, but stumbled on the last one; me.
Allowing for 'maybe it's me', I think 'maybe it's the Song', 'maybe it's the singers/players' who failed to Hook my attention, and keep it.
And so, I keep my dollar.


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There's a few things you have to keep in mind. To the majority of anyone under the age of 30, "Old" , Classic" etc. are three years before they were born. There is NO sense of history. A vast majority of Milliniuls have no idea what 9-11 was other than the name of a television show. In culture, they are completely at the mercy of their phones and whatever is current with their friends or what is "trending" at that particular moment.

It's nothing I can defend. As a pretty big study of history, I see it and am pretty amazed. But I view it as an observer and tend to understand how it got here. When we were all teenagers, we were influenced by our peers, what people listened to in school, teen magazines, etc. whatever was in the culture at that particular time. We didn't really listen to music for anything other than what made us feel good and want to listen to it.

Songwriters are always trying to insert their own beliefs and attitudes into the minds of the current listener. That never happens. Again, one of the things I have been involved with is seeing the development of two certain styles and genres of music, rock and country. I see where it started when I started listening and where it ends up now. If I had to identify one element of what is current, and what pushes the culture or is pushed by the culture, I'd say NEGATIVITY.

For the past 10-15 years in this town I have seen new people come in that are the angriest, most frustrated, angst ridden people I have ever seen. I'm quite surprised that they don't all committ mass suicide. And as their overall life view gets more negative, their music and arts view gets stranger and stranger. Either the music reflects complete pablum with no meaning or no substance, or it gets darker and darker and more hopeless.

A writers night in Nashville is more like a funeral dirge than anything else. The radio gets less and less understandable. So if you start seeing how it forms, seeing the new people coming in, then see as they advance, then see the end product and what attracts the masses, you get a bit of insight and not a lot of it is positive.

That is what fuels the Internet, the artist driven music we are experiencing and what is leading the death of the songwriter as a vehicle in music. When you are in your own world of negativity, no one else can write what you are going through. And when that is what is expected by the masses and the labels, that is where you are.

Someone said something earlier about the "Big Wigs" and what they allow. It's actually quite different. The "Big Wigs" now seize upon what is already "trending" in the media, in fan base, on the Internet. Most of the people who have deals and are on the radio now, had a good deal of interest from the public before they got deals or were released to a more public arena. So the "Big Wheels" are more following what is already going on with the public than creating it. The majors, independents with major partnerships, the smaller independents and the small labels and individuals working their way to find fan base, release a LOT of stuff. Again, millions upon millions out there. To be honest, I am constant surprised anything ever gets anywhere.

MAB

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This topic is like an old episode of Batman...it needs a special guest villain....


...that's where I come in.

Country music's bad. It's always been bad. Corny crap played
and sung by the best singers and musicians. The ice cream has always been brand x, just the flavors have changed. Occasionally a great song fights it way through, like Dreaming Fields or Almost Home, but it's rare. There's better country music on Led Zeppelin 3, side 2 than anything I'm gonna hear on modern radio.

One Man Band was really lame. Tasty guitar licks and a booooring love song. Three minutes and nothing happens in that song. Nothing. And I could've written that lyric in fifteen minutes. Music's subjective but I'm not wrong.

Pop and rock, that something to lament. Rock's been dead and buried for 25 years. Sometimes there are sightings, (like Elvis) but it's dead. What was the last great pop album? Graceland. Although, if you love 60s/70s pop, try She and Him's three cds plus their covers album. They're outstanding. Google Never Wanted Your Love/Letterman. The Wall of Sound rebuilt. Great, melodic song, too. And the singer doesn't look like a harpy with herpes.

Lastly, by the grace of Greta, I've
pledged to wear the same Pink.Floyd t-shirt throughout awards season to combat CLIMATE EXTINCTION.

Let all JPFers do the same....FOR OUR CHILDREN.

wink

Last edited by couchgrouch; 01/14/20 03:13 PM.

Nashville demos etc:

https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/default.cfm?bandID=431939

other demos:

https://soundcloud.com/wabash-cannibal

Amazon Kindle books by Robert George you may enjoy:

1) Americana

2) Teenage Graceland

3) The Will to Be

4) Fort Mystery

5) Wheel Sea

6) My One True Love
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Haha!
I was a teenager when I first heard the Beatles and I thought they were awful. They just sounded like the end of rock and roll and the beginning of a lollypop to me.
I must have been a young old fart then.

I did get to like some of their later stuff though but by then we were all old farts, or getting there.




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If, given time, a monkey can write the complete works of Shakespeare maybe there's hope for me.

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Originally Posted by couchgrouch
This topic is like an old episode of Batman...it needs a special guest villain....


...that's where I come in.

Country music's bad. It's always been bad. Corny crap played
and sung by the best singers and musicians. The ice cream has always been brand x, just the flavors have changed. Occasionally a great song fights it way through, like Dreaming Fields or Almost Home, but it's rare. There's better country music on Led Zeppelin 3, side 2 than anything I'm gonna hear on modern radio.

One Man Band was really lame. Tasty guitar licks and a booooring love song. Three minutes and nothing happens in that song. Nothing. And I could've written that lyric in fifteen minutes. Music's subjective but I'm not wrong.

Pop and rock, that something to lament. Rock's been dead and buried for 25 years. Sometimes there are sightings, (like Elvis) but it's dead. What was the last great pop album? Graceland. Although, if you love 60s/70s pop, try She and Him's three cds plus their covers album. They're outstanding. Google Never Wanted Your Love/Letterman. The Wall of Sound rebuilt. Great, melodic song, too. And the singer doesn't look like a harpy with herpes.

Lastly, by the grace of Greta, I've
pledged to wear the same Pink.Floyd t-shirt throughout awards season to combat CLIMATE EXTINCTION.

Let all JPFers do the same....FOR OUR CHILDREN.

wink


Rock music is not dead, you are just attached to the music you liked when you were in the active listening part of your life. We all are. start here. https://www.undergroundgarage.com/

You wont give them credit... you never heard of them right? Sounds like rock n roll to me
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjmAy8Mn6PU

mooney suzuki
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfpEkxh6TBM

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30 seconds of the Chesterfield Kings reaffirmed what I already said...rock and roll is dead. Those guys have the retro sound but the song was weak. You have to have great songs and lots of them. There were hundreds of them of them being written and recorded yearly in the 60s and 70s, now there's barely a trickle. I'd rather have co-written Strange Apparitions than anything the Chesterfield Kings could write.

And pleaeeese don't bring up the utterly mediocre Jack White or Little Steven. I've had a more distinguished solo career than Steve Van Zant. Speaking of which, Van Zant did a really bad job in RS of asserting rock is still alive. Gene Simmons said rock was dead and the interviewer asked Van Zant about it.

It's dead and your feeble protestations only make it more glaringly apparent.


Nashville demos etc:

https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/default.cfm?bandID=431939

other demos:

https://soundcloud.com/wabash-cannibal

Amazon Kindle books by Robert George you may enjoy:

1) Americana

2) Teenage Graceland

3) The Will to Be

4) Fort Mystery

5) Wheel Sea

6) My One True Love
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Rock and country music are built on very simple structures derived from 12 bar blues. 3 or 4 chords and whatever.

Those structures have been mined for decades and the veins are pretty well depleted. These days the old stuff is being re circulated with different voices and lyrics, but most all of it is retreads.

So it is not fresh or new or groundbreaking because it can't be. The ground was long since broken.

And personally the last thing that I want to hear is a reincarnation of "your cheating heart." Torture.

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Look at the past couple of hundred years. Any "classical" style enjoyed today is due to re-discovery of that music long after it's prime era. Carl Haas pointed out on his radio program "Adventures in Good Music", If it weren't for Felix Mendelssohn we would not have any Tchaikovsky music to listen to. There are no known original Tchaikovsky manuscripts left in existence today. Felix was into the re-discovery of past composer's music to preserve the styles. He re-wrote many of the older works by the original composers such as Tchaikovsky, "upgrading" them to more modern arrangements. He was a conservative composer himself. He disliked more adventurous musical contemporaries such as Franz Liszt, Richard Wagner, and Hector Berlioz. His love for preserving music history though, is an example of how great music can have an afterlife, and be re-discovered by future generations. Every genre has that potential.

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Originally Posted by Perry Neal Crawford
Look at the past couple of hundred years. Any "classical" style enjoyed today is due to re-discovery of that music long after it's prime era. Carl Haas pointed out on his radio program "Adventures in Good Music", If it weren't for Felix Mendelssohn we would not have any Tchaikovsky music to listen to. There are no known original Tchaikovsky manuscripts left in existence today. Felix was into the re-discovery of past composer's music to preserve the styles. He re-wrote many of the older works by the original composers such as Tchaikovsky, "upgrading" them to more modern arrangements. He was a conservative composer himself. He disliked more adventurous musical contemporaries such as Franz Liszt, Richard Wagner, and Hector Berlioz. His love for preserving music history though, is an example of how great music can have an afterlife, and be re-discovered by future generations. Every genre has that potential.



I respectfully disagree concerning "popular music." Popular music is folk art and it gets heard and reproduced by a lot more people than symphonic music. In the last few decades the science of music delivery has changed dramatically, and now with the internet and streaming added to the radio...we are drowning in popular music. Pop music is simple in it's structure, though it can be skillfully complex in it's details. (e.g Eric Johnson) The simplicity of the structure has been milked and milked and milked....and coming at us in a relentless deluge. That is why 1 4 5 and 1 6 4 5 have probably seen every permutation that there is many times over. That is one reason that Ray thinks that it all sounds the same. The other is that he has a predetermined bad attitude about it and doesnt want it to be good...unless he singularly approves of it.

There is no ground to break unless and until there is another structural vehicle. I dont know what that would be. Jazz doesnt have wide mass appeal. Rap is even more narrowly structured from what I can tell.

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Originally Posted by couchgrouch
30 seconds of the Chesterfield Kings reaffirmed what I already said...rock and roll is dead. Those guys have the retro sound but the song was weak. You have to have great songs and lots of them. There were hundreds of them of them being written and recorded yearly in the 60s and 70s, now there's barely a trickle. I'd rather have co-written Strange Apparitions than anything the Chesterfield Kings could write.

And pleaeeese don't bring up the utterly mediocre Jack White or Little Steven. I've had a more distinguished solo career than Steve Van Zant. Speaking of which, Van Zant did a really bad job in RS of asserting rock is still alive. Gene Simmons said rock was dead and the interviewer asked Van Zant about it.

It's dead and your feeble protestations only make it more glaringly apparent.


Hilarious across the board. You say country music has always sucked, but you try to write it every day, and for some reason, YOURS fall through the cracks???

If Johnny Cash, And Willie Nelson, and Merle Haggard suck, man how bad do you suck?

Now your better than Little Steven's music. And Gene Simmons sure knows his rock music....

30 seconds in, yeah, and every Rolling Stones song could be deciphered in 30 seconds.

We know, its ONLY good if you say it is. .

But please continue with the good entertainment, I mean its still two weeks away from The Superbowl!

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Geez,
Country music sucks? There have been/are hundreds of millions of fans who would/will disagree with you. Just because you are not a fan does not give your argument any merit.
And redo "Your Cheatin' Heart"? It was a classic in it's time, and still is.
There have been many very talented country songwriters, some of them famous, and some of them not.
When someone can write as good as they have, I will consider your opinion as having a little weight, till then, just be jealous!


Have a goodun,

John W. Selleck BMI Songwriter
A day without learning is a day lost forever.

www.soundclick.com/johnsings
www.soundclick.com/johnwselleck
www.soundclick.com/johnselleck
https://www.soundclick.com/artist/default.cfm?bandID=1468958 For Selleck/Kay co-writes
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Originally Posted by John W. Selleck
Geez,

And redo "Your Cheatin' Heart"? It was a classic in it's time, and still is.

There have been many very talented country songwriters, some of them famous, and some of them not.
When someone can write as good as they have, I will consider your opinion as having a little weight, till then, just be jealous!


I don't dispute that "Your Cheatin Heart" is a country classic. I assert that I couldnt stand the sound of it as a kid and that never changed.
And I am happy to leave it in the past and let people such as yourself fawn over it's passed glory.

As for country music in general, that is what I listen to more than anything else. I like Brett Young and I like "He Stopped Loving her Today" just as much, because it is truly a magnificent comment on the human condition...and pleasant to listen to.

As far as jealous...I'd love to have a big radio hit, but it is not going to happen and I don't sit around worrying about it. That would be a pointless thing for a 67 year old man to do.

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Whazzat?
YOUR CHEATING HEART. Way back there in the 50's my older brother, who is still living today broke up with a girl wouldn't you know. So she called a local radio station and requested they play YOUR CHEATING HEART for him. My older sister, now gone was listening to the Radio and heard the request by the disc jockey and came out where I was and told me!

Never underestimate the power of a song. Today you can't call a Radio Station and request a song. Write a Hit!


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Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Originally Posted by John W. Selleck
Geez,

And redo "Your Cheatin' Heart"? It was a classic in it's time, and still is.

There have been many very talented country songwriters, some of them famous, and some of them not.
When someone can write as good as they have, I will consider your opinion as having a little weight, till then, just be jealous!


I don't dispute that "Your Cheatin Heart" is a country classic. I assert that I couldnt stand the sound of it as a kid and that never changed.
And I am happy to leave it in the past and let people such as yourself fawn over it's passed glory.

As for country music in general, that is what I listen to more than anything else. I like Brett Young and I like "He Stopped Loving her Today" just as much, because it is truly a magnificent comment on the human condition...and pleasant to listen to.

As far as jealous...I'd love to have a big radio hit, but it is not going to happen and I don't sit around worrying about it. That would be a pointless thing for a 67 year old man to do.


Our brains get wired to a certain sound, style, format, language, singer, musician, lyric, its usually formed when we are young. . After a few cycles of change its like being pushed into a video game and asked to walk around. At 67, your not interested in change, you like whats already there.

Music hasnt changed, you have...(I think i got a new title)

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FD...I know all that, but you missed the point.
I couldn't stand the sound of "Your Cheatin Heart" when I was pre-teens and presumably at a malleable age. That has never changed.

And, at a young age, I never liked Sinatra songs. I didn't dislike the sound of them but they had no appeal for me. Starting in my late fifties I began to enjoy them greatly Now I listen to them often.
One reason is because they are lovely music. It was just a matter of coming around ot them.

Unlike a song that sounds like it was in a bar scene that got cut out of "Deliverance."

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Originally Posted by Martin Lide
FD...I know all that, but you missed the point.
I couldn't stand the sound of "Your Cheatin Heart" when I was pre-teens and presumably at a malleable age. That has never changed.

And, at a young age, I never liked Sinatra songs. I didn't dislike the sound of them but they had no appeal for me. Starting in my late fifties I began to enjoy them greatly Now I listen to them often.
One reason is because they are lovely music. It was just a matter of coming around ot them.

Unlike a song that sounds like it was in a bar scene that got cut out of "Deliverance."


I know what you mean. Im an 80's kid, there was alot of stuff I liked such as Bryan Adams, The Police, The Boss, even Stevie Ray Vaughn was popular then, alot of diversity in the 80's, but there was also stuff I considered chit, and to this day still cant stand it, and it makes me cringe, alot of new wave and just stupid music. One thing the 80's had was lots ot diversity, from Flock of Seaguls to Robert Cray, from Madonna to John Mellancamp, From Duran Duran to Tom Petty. Alot of one hit wonders, some which I liked others hate and still hate.

Musical tastes can change. I remember seeing a commercial that showed the timeline of this kid in school, he goes to college, starts working, gets married, has kids, had grandkids, retires, and the music they were playing to coincide with it was interesting. He started listening to blues in his 40's.

I think some music is made for certain age groups. But I also think that at a time when music was REALLY important to us, whatever age that is for you, is what REALLY wires us, and we cant accept change. I remember how hard I tried to discredit Eddie Van Halen, I just didnt want to believe that he was a great guitar player, because he played so differently than my heros. I was wrong, he is amazing, but he's still not my go to music, I dont cite him as an influence or I dont buy his music much, but an absolute genius

I think I formed what good music was in my head, and Im sticking with it. Yeah I casually like some stuff and others, but am I really passionate about it? Not really


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