Who's Online Now
8 members (maccharles, Gary E. Andrews, Sunset Poet, VNORTH2, Alek, Deej56, JAPOV, 1 invisible), 344 guests, and 97 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Register Today!
Welcome to the Just Plain Folks forums! You are currently viewing our forums as a Guest which gives you limited access to most of our discussions and to other features.

By joining our free community you will have access to post and respond to topics, communicate privately with our users (PM), respond to polls, upload content, and access many other features. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free; so please join our community today!
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. Don't flame, hate, spam.
What's Going On
Platforms, Providence, Rhode Island
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/28/22 11:07 PM
The Crimea Cotton
by Alek - 09/28/22 04:51 PM
Prophecy anyone?
by Sunset Poet - 09/28/22 02:40 PM
Newport Music Hall, Columbus, Ohio
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/28/22 01:32 PM
Stuart's Opera House, Nelsonville, Ohio
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/28/22 01:27 PM
Taft Theatre, Cincinnati, Ohio
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/28/22 01:19 PM
Rumba Cafe, Columbus, Ohio
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/28/22 01:08 PM
No Where Else To Go
by Sunset Poet - 09/28/22 12:56 PM
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/28/22 07:24 AM
Palmer's Bar
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/28/22 07:15 AM
Drake Hotel, Toronto, Canada
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/28/22 07:04 AM
Rockwood Music Hall
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/28/22 07:00 AM
Music Creator Collaboration Facebook Group?
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/28/22 06:50 AM
Outer Park, 3rd Album
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/28/22 06:44 AM
Outer Park, 3rd Album
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/28/22 06:43 AM
Summit Music Hall, Columbus, Ohio
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/27/22 11:01 PM
Before The Fall
by IronKnee - 09/27/22 07:35 PM
Aux Meadows
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/27/22 02:27 PM
As December Falls
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/27/22 01:59 PM
Kemba Live
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/27/22 01:40 PM
Note About Site Being Down...
by cecileemusic - 09/27/22 01:28 PM
Angel's Falling
by cecileemusic - 09/27/22 01:25 PM
lyricwriter looking for songwriter/musician
by segarlyrics - 09/27/22 11:49 AM
Gallows Pole
by Sam Wilson - 09/27/22 09:10 AM
What Value in a Mortal Soul
by Sam Wilson - 09/27/22 09:05 AM
Common Questions
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/27/22 07:51 AM
Club44 Records
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/27/22 06:54 AM
The Dark Room @ The Grandel, St. Louis, Missouri
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/27/22 06:47 AM
Waterfire Arts Center, Providence, Rhode Island
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/27/22 06:27 AM
The Belle Mehus Auditorium, Bismarck, North Dakota
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/27/22 06:19 AM
Top Posters
Calvin 19,853
Travis david 12,195
Kevin Emmrich 10,938
Jean Bullock 10,330
Kaley Willow 10,240
Two Singers 9,649
Joice Marie 9,186
Mackie H. 8,991
glynda 8,683
Mike Dunbar 8,574
Tricia Baker 8,318
couchgrouch 8,070
Colin Ward 7,909
Corey 7,357
Vicarn 6,811
Mark Kaufman 6,588
Wyman Lloyd 6,578
ben willis 6,113
niteshift 5,827
Lynn Orloff 5,788
Louis 5,725
Linda Sings 5,608
KimberlyinNC 5,210
Neil Cotton 4,909
Derek Hines 4,893
DonnaMarilyn 4,667
Blake Hill 4,528
Bob Cushing 4,389
Roy Cooper 4,268
Fdemetrio 4,260
Bill Osofsky 4,199
Tom Shea 4,195
Cindy Miller 4,178
TamsNumber4 4,130
nightengale 4,096
MFB III 4,042
Caroline 3,865
beechnut79 3,845
Kolstad 3,844
E Swartz 3,730
Dan Sullivan 3,710
Dottie 3,427
Sunset Poet 3,416
joewatt 3,411
Bill Cooper 3,279
John Hoffman 3,199
Skip Johnson 3,027
Pam Hurley 3,007
Terry G 3,005
PopTodd 2,890
Harriet Ames 2,870
Nigel Quin 2,868
MidniteBob 2,761
Nelson 2,616
Tom Tracy 2,558
Polly Hager 2,526
Jerry Jakala 2,524
Al Alvarez 2,499
Eric Thome 2,448
Hummingbird 2,401
Stan Loh 2,263
Sam Wilson 2,246
Judy Hollier 2,232
Wendy D 2,226
JAPOV 2,203
Erica Ellis 2,202
TrumanCoyote 2,096
Marty Helly 2,041
maccharles 2,014
DukeWill 1,988
floyd jane 1,985
Clint Anglin 1,904
cindyrella 1,888
David Wright 1,866
Clairejeanne 1,851
Cindy LaRosa 1,824
Ronald Boyt 1,675
Iggy 1,652
Noel Downs 1,633
Rick Heenan 1,608
Cal 1,574
GocartMoz 1,559
Jack Swain 1,554
Pete Larsen 1,537
Ann Tygart 1,529
Tom Breshers 1,487
RogerS 1,473
Tom Franz 1,473
Chuck Crowe 1,441
Ralph Blight 1,440
Rick Norton 1,429
Kenneth Cade 1,429
bholt 1,411
Letha Allen 1,409
in2piano 1,404
Stan Simons 1,402
mattbanx 1,384
Deej56 1,383
Jen Shaner 1,373
Charlie Wong 1,347
KevinP 1,324
Vondelle 1,316
Tom W. 1,313
Jan Petter 1,301
scottandrew 1,294
Gerry 1,268
DakLander 1,265
lane1777 1,260
PeteG 1,242
Ian Ferrin 1,235
Glen King 1,214
IdeaGuy 1,209
AaronAuthier 1,177
summeoyo 1,174
Diane Ewing 1,158
IronKnee 1,155
joro 1,082
BobbyJoe 1,075
S.DEE 1,040
yann 1,037
Tony A 1,016
9ne 1,015
argo 986
peaden 984
90 dB 964
Wolvman 960
ckiphen 925
Jak Kelly 912
krtinberg 890
Drifter 886
Petra 883
RJC 845
Brenda152 840
Nadia 829
ant 798
Juan 797
TKO 784
Dayson 781
frahmes 781
teletwang 762
Andy K 750
Andy Kemp 741
tbryson 737
Jackie444 731
3daveyO3 704
Dixie 701
Irwin 697
Joy Boy 695
Knute 686
Lee Arten 678
Moosesong 668
Pat Hardy 667
Katziis 652
quality 637
CG King 622
douglas 621
Mel 614
R&M 612
NaomiSue 601
Shandy 589
Ria 587
TAMERA64 583
qbaum 570
nitepiano 566
Tink2 553
musica 539
deanbell 528
RobertK 527
BonzaiWag 523
Roderic 522
BB Wilbur 513
goodfolks 499
Zeek 487
Stu 486
Steve P. 481
KathyW 462
allenb 459
MaxG 458
Philjo 454
fanito 448
trush48 448
dmk 442
Rob L 439
arealrush 437
DGR 436
avweek 435
Stephen D 433
Emmy 431
marquez 422
kit 419
Softkrome 417
kyrksongs 415
RRon 408
Laura G. 407
Debra 407
eb 406
cuebald 399
EdPerrone 399
Dannyk1 395
Hobart 395
Davyboy49 393
Smile 389
GJShades 387
Ezt 384
tone 380
Marla 380
Ann_F 379
iggyiggy 378
coalminer 377
java 374
Alek 371
spidey 371
sweetsong 370
danny 367
Jim Ryan 360
papaG 353
Z - man 350
JamesDF5 348
John K 348
Jaden 344
ddreuter 341
TheBaz 340
Steggy 339
leif 339
tonedeaf 336
rickwork 334
Eddie Ray 332
Johnboy 328
Bob Lever 328
Helicon1 327
lucian 326
Muskie 321
kc 319
Z. Mulls 318
ptondreau 313
Chris B. 310
trush 304
ed323 297
Ellen M 294
markus-ky 292
lizzorn 291
nicnac49 290
Char 286
ktunes 285
mastrose 280
pammie 279
Top Likes Received
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 19,471
Likes: 4
Top 10 Poster
OP Offline
Top 10 Poster
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 19,471
Likes: 4
Ahhhhh... Net Neutrality....sigh....

All I can say is that after more than 10 years of working to pass Net Neutrality is that things have changed significantly since I first met with Senators and Congresspeople about it in DC, since the white papers and long research nights, or writing dozens of articles about it in the JPF newsletter and since we celebrated finally getting it passed. Even I can barely say what the net gain or loss is in the undoing. Much of what you've read has been falsely reported by both the left and the right to the point that I don't believe either side's pleadings on face value.

From what I know (and you'd be surprised how much this requires me to say "wow... we didn't see this coming" was the the framework that was passed by Obama would have completely killed any prospects to enter into new underserved markets (think small companies serving rural areas) because no investment banks would give out a dime because it was so open ended for new Government controls and legislation ALWAYS favors big pocketed special interest (i.e. the monolithic ISP's we all see on TV). Most people now get most of their internet via their cellphones and with 5G that will just continue. However with NN in place, even the leaders in ISP had stopped investing in upgrades and expansions until they saw inevitable legislation come down the pike. In truth, under the 2 years NN was in place, ISP tech and expansion and start-ups had regressed significantly in fear of what other special interests (mainly via the Google's, Netflix, Facebook, Twitter and massive cable company Comcast and massive fiber optic company (soon to own Time Warner Cable) AT&T would instruct their minions in congress to do next. Their abuse of the bandwidth usage (Netflix get's a free ride on ISP's backs and uses upwards of 40% of the entire bandwidth) would also keep any competition out of their marketplace. Where we made our biggest mistake was underestimating (frankly, never DREAMING) that the services would cease to be competition out there and a tiny number of monopolies would rule dominion so quickly over the entire internet. Take those entities out of the bandwidth and everything else makes up a single digit number combined. They had already monopolized the internet under NN. That's a fact and in truth as things stand no one can compete effectively with any of them in their areas of dominance. We saw that with Vidme shutting down just today and realize no one else is in line to compete with any of the above companies, not even in an effective fringe way. Ironically, sites such as YouTube and Twitten hemorrhage money on levels preventing anyone else from attempting to compete making them both, in my view, subject to becoming Utilities rather than free standing companies. Only the likes of Google can realistically afford the massive losses and keep on going. Twitter is likely to be swallowed by a larger company with deeper pockets, or to simply collapse under it's own weight if it doesn't figure out how to make money, something it has never once done.

Beyond the above, conditions under NN which expedited the monopolistic process also kept any investors or bankers from funding upstarts due to the lack of money these companies are making and the tremendous long term losses their own growth cause. Not only that, but Twitter in particular is shrinking already because, as a monopoly, and as an absolute power in the space, it has been corrupted by it's political views and has strayed into heavy handed censorship based on vague policies that are only enforced against the half of the country they disagree with. That is not a rosy long term prospective from which to grow your business. Start Up's like Patreon are learning these same harsh lesson's themselves right now and are still small enough to likely be challenged and defeated by the upstarts it is competing with which assure both sides Free Speech. Sadly, no such alternative options exist for YouTube or Twitter which is again why they should be turned into utilities where the laws governing free speech go into effect. Bringing Govt. in has it's own downfalls however, so it may be a net loss to consumers no matter what happens. Govt. is trying to penetrate free speech protections all the time so giving it one more tool in which to slip into the practices is risky to say the least.

Under NN, one side would be able to abuse the other. When we first launched into NN, the cable companies and a few digital ISPs seemed destined to own the market quickly, but we didn't anticipate the uprise of Cell Phone delivery circumventing cables and optical wires which dominated at the time. Currently we have over a dozen capable players providing internet rather than the 3 dominant one we saw with Comcast, Time Warner and AT&T. That transition alone would have made us rethink NN from the inception.

So that is the anti-NN reality. Theoretically, competition from the 12 major competitors will result in ONLY the content providers paying the costs to those ISP's for their bandwidth rather than increased rates for consumers. Cell service will continue to improve and costs will go down, especially when Netflix and others must compete in the free market and pay the ISP's for hogging bandwidth.

Here's a video that shows both arguments you may want to consider: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G35g5HQVjpU

This is the rare topic where both sides have valid points, but neither side is well understood or represented in the media. After spending more than a dozen years on this (even before it was called net neutrality) my bottom line is that we are likely screwed either way. Disney just bought Fox further combining all those assets into one monolithic monstrosity. We are SO screwed.....


Brian Austin Whitney
Just Plain Folks
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney
Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

"It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..."

[Linked Image]
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,909
Top 30 Poster
Top 30 Poster
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,909
Well presented information, Brian. I am new to this having never given it any thought until the present NN discussions came up. But it seems to me that the internet can be viewed as a utility or as a business. I think I am favoring the utility side since the ISPs are in a way so powerful as to be able to cut off an essential pipeline if they choose......not so much Netflix, etc. but important communications between business entities that need the internet to operate. Not counting phones, there are only two ISPs here that I can choose from and some adjacent towns here have only one. That's a lot of eggs in one basket. Many of us lost the internet during the aftermath of hurricane Irma and it was a huge problem for some.

I had a thought during one of our overseas skirmishes that we should cut off the internet access to a certain country that was communicating with their bad guys via Twitter.....but I don't know that we, or anyone else, knows where to pull the plug out or if it's even possible. I wonder how the internet reaches a small middle eastern country? Is it via telephone lines, cables, over the airwaves, or what? Who even knows?

Anyway, much as I hate governments meddling in our lives, this might be a case for making more like a utility which I guess would have net neutrality.


I try to critique as if you mean business.....



Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 19,471
Likes: 4
Top 10 Poster
OP Offline
Top 10 Poster
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 19,471
Likes: 4
I took your side (and part of me still does) but one par that worries me is how easy our government slips into authoritarianism. In fact, by nature, ALL governments with even a fraction of the power ours has in my view leans that way at best and even with good intentions falls into that abyss, not to mention those with bad intentions (insert both political parties). Plus do we want the government to be on one side or the other OR our side? The only way it can do that is to remove its control of the entire thing because then it is either their side of the square, or on side or the other, but always against our side of the square where we have no individual power at all.

Like I said, it is complicated. I do know the fastest path to a single choice only is government where it become their choice. If they set the rules for your one provider like pricing, then their only strategy is to give you as little for that set price as possible rather than the most for the price they choose based on competition and being awesome. It is a race to the bottom like socialized medicine which is awesome if you need a bandaid, terrible if you have a child with cancer or let's say something as important as free speech.

Brian Austin Whitney
Just Plain Folks
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney
Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

"It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..."

[Linked Image]

Link Copied to Clipboard
Support Just Plain Folks

We would like to keep the membership in Just Plain Folks FREE! Your donation helps support the many programs we offer including Road Trips and the Music Awards.

Newest Members
Sixth_Sense, kieranmartin6223, idadalton, cecileemusic, uwehuber1988
21,364 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Most Online37,523
Jan 25th, 2020
Just Plain Quotes
"If you are stuck in your musical composing, be unreasonable. Change your environment. If you are stuck in your lyrical efforts, instead of forcing the same old words out, force yourself to do unreasonable things." -Brian Austin Whitney
Today's Birthdays
HeartStringsUkule (68), Luci (63), PopTodd (52), Terry Allan Hall (66)
Popular Topics(Views)
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5