en Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts! - Just Plain Folks Music Organization Message Boards
Page 3 of 3
leftleftbyleftbyleftbyleftbyleftbyleftbyleftbyleftbyleftbyleftbyleftbyleftbyleftbyleftalt-1 alvt">
The Seeds Would Grow
by beechnut79. 09/08/21 12:14 PM
The Winner
by beechnut79. 09/08/21 12:14 PM
Envious Heart
by beechnut79. 09/08/21 12:10 PM
The Voyager
by Gerry. 09/08/21 07:05 AM
"Not Just A Melody.".
by JAPOV. 09/07/21 09:51 PM
This old dog
by beechnut79. 09/07/21 10:54 AM
How Fast Are You Going (When You're Standing Still
by beechnut79. 09/07/21 10:40 AM
Lazing in the Sun
by beechnut79. 09/07/21 10:35 AM
"I Need A Cadillac....Jack!"
by beechnut79. 09/07/21 10:33 AM
Pedal & Synth Expo Oct.2-3, 2021 Free, Outdoors
by Gary E. Andrews. 09/06/21 02:24 PM
Resource List (In Progress)
by Brian Austin Whitney. 09/06/21 12:40 AM
Blending Political Discourse, Conspiracy Theories,
by WilliamMahler. 09/05/21 09:49 PM
Eco-Heroes Contest, Artists, Lower Emissions
by Gary E. Andrews. 09/05/21 01:16 PM
"How Songs Get Cut" with Rand Bishop
by Gary E. Andrews. 09/04/21 08:54 PM
Rivers of Destiny
by Bill Draper. 09/04/21 07:59 PM
my recording set up
by Bill Draper. 09/04/21 06:00 PM
They Live On
by rpirone. 09/04/21 05:51 PM
leftTop Posters(All Time)left
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
1 2 3
#165767 - 04/18/06 03:12 AM Re: Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts!  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
JPF Mentor
Mike Dunbar  Offline
JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
Thanks Marty,

After reading through the whole thing this morning, I had forgotten Cindy's name, when I quickly scrolled back to Brian's original post, I skimmed down and read "from Russ and Julie's house concerts" at the top of his post paste.

Mea Culpa,
Mike

------------------
You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

[This message has been edited by Mike Dunbar (edited 04-18-2006).]


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#165768 - 04/18/06 06:29 PM Re: Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts!  
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,096
TrumanCoyote Offline
Top 100 Poster
TrumanCoyote  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,096
I've read a few of the 106 previous posts to this thread, so what I say may not be anything new. It seems the two sides of the issue are that 1) a house concert is a commercial enterprise and should answer to the laws pertaining to such things; and 2) a house concert is not a commercial enterprise and should be excluded from the laws that pertain to such things.

I think, if we step back and be honest, that a house concert simply falls into the crack between the two. And there is the rub. It is most certainly NOT a commmercial enterprise for the hosts. It most assuredly IS for the entertainers.

It is NOT the same thing as a party with hired entertainers; and it is NOT the same as a group of friends sitting in a circle swapping songs.

It is not a party in the traditional sense, nor is it a concert in the tradtional sense. It lands in the grey area. Everyone seems to be very upset that the courts are involved, but folks, that is the purpose of courts: to see if and how the laws apply to situations where people cannot come to an agreement.

Personally, I think house concerts are a nice venue. I think (under most conditions) they cause no harm to the neighborhood or the community, nor any real inconvenience. I agree with Bob that they could be scheduled at the Moose Hall or some such, but that approach will steal a lot of the charm and personality from the event.

In my neighborhood, there could be a house concert every Saturday night all year long, and it would cause far less traffic, noise, and annoyance that does the weekly ALTA tennis matches at the neighborhood courts. And that is just a little traffic, a little noise, and no real annoyance at all.

The best thing here would be for the zoning board to re-think their stategy, but it looks like folks have ground in their heels, and it has gone past the point of no return.

Don Quixote would have loved this.

#165769 - 04/18/06 10:31 PM Re: Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts!  
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6
joerath Offline
Casual Observer
joerath  Offline
Casual Observer

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6
Quoting TrumanCoyote -

"It is NOT the same thing as a party with hired entertainers; and it is NOT the same as a group of friends sitting in a circle swapping songs."

Truman,

It is exactly a party with hired entertainers. It's called a concert because folks thinking they're going to just a party would behave differently, with less respect to the artist, than if they knew in advance that the music was the focus of the party. Other than that there is no difference what so ever. It's a host, having a reason to throw a party, inviting guests to enjoy the occasion. It's as simple as that. In this case the guests are asked to chip in to pay for the evenings entertainment, just as if they were asked to: bring a dish to pass, their own beverage, wear a costume, or pay for a keg. Frankly I much prefer sitting around listening to good music being made than getting sloshed around a keg any day. That's my high, and also that of most of those who attend house concerts, but to each their own.

Joe Rathburn


"We can all be little suns." - Joe Rathburn
http://www.JoeRathburn.com
#165770 - 04/18/06 11:53 PM Re: Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts!  
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 401
Midnite Bob Offline
Serious Contributor
Midnite Bob  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 401
D.C.
Mea Culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!

Midnite(go Jody go)Bob

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mike Dunbar:

Mea Culpa,
Mike


Satchel was right...Something is gaining on me....
http://www.jackcouldntmakeit.com
#165771 - 04/18/06 11:57 PM Re: Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts!  
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,096
TrumanCoyote Offline
Top 100 Poster
TrumanCoyote  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,096
Quote
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by joerath:


It is exactly a party with hired entertainers.
</font>


I respectfully disagree.

If what you say is true, then what is this court battle all about?

#165773 - 04/19/06 04:48 AM Re: Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts!  
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6
joerath Offline
Casual Observer
joerath  Offline
Casual Observer

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6
Quote
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by TrumanCoyote:
I respectfully disagree.

If what you say is true, then what is this court battle all about?

</font>


Truman,

The court battle is about zoning ordinance violations which were triggered by a disgruntled neighbor, who must have found this "partying" an inconvenience of some sort, reporting the house concert/party host to the authorities. They in turn are following up as they must in the only way they know how, which is by the books, and since this has never come up before, they don't know how to handle it other than to label it commercial activity. That is an injustice, for it is not commercial as defined by law. The guests are not exchanging money for services with the host, they're helping the host make the kind of party they want to attend possible. You said yourself that it fell between the cracks which means that it's not commercial, but I simply go further and say that it's merely a party with folks chipping in for the cost of the entertainment. NO PROFIT IS BEING MADE EXCEPT BY THE MUSICIANS which is exactly the same as when Bob Young gets paid for playing at a 50th birthday party, except the focus will be on the stage and not on the birthday person. Instead of people bringing presents, they give something at the door to make this particular party possible.

If the host was paying her rent with the money taken in, or selling beer and wine, or food, to off-set the costs involved, or even paying for the advertising out of the income it might be different. But in this case as in all house concerts I'm aware of 100% of the door goes to pay the musicians. It wouldn't work any other way. That says to me this is not a commercial venture. It may be a violation of neighborhood manners, but that is all. In my humble opinion.


[This message has been edited by joerath (edited 04-19-2006).]


"We can all be little suns." - Joe Rathburn
http://www.JoeRathburn.com
#165774 - 04/19/06 06:57 AM Re: Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts!  
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,372
Bob Young (D) Offline
Top 100 Poster
Bob Young (D)  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,372
chicago il usa
Glad we got Mike Dunbar and Truman Peyote (that's a joke) in here...they are two good voices to heed in a discussion like this..

One of the nice things about being semi retired is that it gives you time for foolishness..

I decided to use a little of that time to get some other views..

So..I asked some disinterested
parties some unloaded but pertinient kwestions..(gotta get the cue fixed)

I talked to a couple of neighbors, my son, my daughter, the UPS guy and the maintenance chief in our building.
My first kwestion was "is a birthday party in someones home, where a clown or somesuch is hired to entertain exactly the same as a small gathering in the same house where people pay an admission that goes to pay a small number of musicians or a solo performer?"
This was the first time most of these people had ever heard the phrase "house concetr".

None of those asked said it was the same.
Even my daughter, a total earth mom hippy at heart did not feel it was the same...

Next, I asked them how they would feel about their neighbors opening their houses for these kinds of events...

My neighbors, a lovely retired couple were scared to death !
The only person that thought it might be OK was my son..a 27 year old guy in a constant state of sexual arousal who thought it might be a cool way to meet chicks!
Everybody else...no thanks !

With apologies to those (like my good friend Mr Dunbar) who scoffed at the notion that there might be small venues available for this sort of thing, EVERY single person agreed that there were plenty of places available to handle small concerts like thes.
The venues within 10 miles of my house were numerous..2 VFWs, 2 American Legion Halls..several small bars with attatched party rooms, the aforementioned hospitality suite at our condo and probably 10 more at nearby renatal and condo complexes.

Now...if any of you want to have one of these in lake Geneva Wi...my daughter said she might be willing to give it a try..
She has a 10 acre farmette and if you will cover the insurance, she'll handle the thing.

I would suggest that the semantics being tossed about on this thread have little to do with what really matters..

Many of you have forgotten that what something is doesn't matter..it's what people THINK it is !

Alot of people ( myself included) think that the notion of house concerts is groovy....but..not realistic in the world in which we live.

I'd suggest flying below the radar..have as many of these things as you can get away with..

But..if you think municipalities are gonna sweep aside zoning restrictions...well..guess again.
And if your argument that it's just the smae as your neighbors having a birthday party for their 5 year old, and you wind up getting that disallowed as well.....well...you'll be saving alot of money on Christmas cards !

I would suggest that Brian use the weight of the 40,000 members to fight a winnable battle..

This, in my opinion, is not that battle.

Bob Young

#165775 - 04/19/06 07:09 AM Re: Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts!  
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 473
Doug Barnett Offline
Top 500 Poster
Doug Barnett  Offline
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 473
Glendale, AZ, USA
after wading through the sea of words here, I can only think of one item to add as food for thought.

do we really want the federal government to regulate what we do in our homes?

If the O'Hara Township Zoning Ordinance is flawed then it needs to be addressed by O'Hara Township.
Its not a federal law yet - but if it goes to federal court it very well might become one.
the feds already regulate or control way too much stuff and this is not something I would want their fingers in.

#165776 - 04/19/06 09:29 AM Re: Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts!  
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,524
Jerry Jakala Offline
Top 100 Poster
Jerry Jakala  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,524
Pinellas Park.FL USA
As long as I am not selling women,drugs,booze or any other"really illegal" activity what I do in my home is my business,period!

Jerry


------------------
Jerry Jakala


http://www.jerryjakala.com
http://cdbaby.com/cd/jakalajerry2

The difference between genius and stupidity is that there is a limit on genius.-Albert Einstein
#165777 - 04/19/06 01:11 PM Re: Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts!  
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 32
Gypsy Picker Offline
Casual Observer
Gypsy Picker  Offline
Casual Observer

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 32
Amherst, NY
A true house concert scenario to ponder.

I have a friend who plays guitar and also writes and arranges original compositions. "J", as he is known on the net, is a senior at Belmont Univ. (Music major) in Nashville on visa from Italy. J has two self-released CDs out (CDBaby, etc.) but remains, like many here, relatively unknown.

J travels frequently while in America (as one is wont to do while abroad), and I offered to house him if he found his way to my neck of the woods. I also offered to help secure paid performance that would help offset his travel expenses. Last summer a plan was made for an October visit.

J sent me a dozen CDs, and armed with these I went to a number of local venues in an effort to set up gigs. In reality, there are not that many venues here that are suited for the "listening room" ambience that his genre demands. No matter, I was unsuccessful except for an outdoor venue 100 miles south which booked him for one show.

A number of my friends had heard J's CDs and wanted to hear him perform, but were unable or unwilling to commit to a 200 mile round trip to do so. One friend offered to host a house concert with J in his home. We all agreed that we would limit it to 30 persons and ask for a ten dollar donation.

A total of 22 friends and neighbors accepted our invitation and we decided to offer the remaining 6 slots to those we felt may be interested but may or may not personally know. To wit, we invited members of the Buffalo Friends of Folk Music (we're both members), and JPF members via the local section of this website. We got no additional takers through our "advertisement", but the 24 of us there enjoyed a wonderful house concert performance that I'll never forget.

Monetary details: My friend and I supplied wine and cheese out-of-pocket. J rec'd. $240 in donations and also sold ~15 CDs. I'm not sure what his travel expenses were, but they were certainly more than his total take at the house concert and the other paid performance combined.

It seems to me that there is absolutley nothing illegal or morally wrong at all with this entire scenario. My friends and I wanted to hear an intimate performance by J and were willing to pay for it. J wanted to perform and needed to mitigate travel expenses. Everyone gained and nobody lost - except maybe J.

For those here who have venues nearby that can approximate a house concert and are willing to book unknowns, I envy you. Based on what we have here in Buffalo-Niagara, I'm dubious of such claims. I also question the methods of the pollster that would elicit a response that a house concert would scare the neighbor. What kind of lurid orgy did you describe to get that response? Show the photo (linked below) from J's house concert to your neighbor and ask again.

http://www.dimacc.net/J/jclass.JPG

#165778 - 04/19/06 01:24 PM Re: Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts!  
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,372
Bob Young (D) Offline
Top 100 Poster
Bob Young (D)  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,372
chicago il usa
Well...(chuckling)..

I think maybe I'm the "pollster" you're referring to...

I certainly didn't describe any kind of "orgy"
I've never been to an orgy so I wouldn't know how to describe one anyway !

My neighbors are a lovely retired couple in their late 60's..
They're here because they like the stillness and serenity of the neighborhood.
I described the house concert as accurately as I could with references they would understand.ie..very soft music..30 to 50 guests etc.
The problem is that they see(as I do) the possibility that not every concert will present such an idyllic scene.
They did not move here to have concerts next door...neither did I !

Bob Young

#165779 - 04/19/06 01:57 PM Re: Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts!  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,034
Marty Helly Offline
Marty Helly  Offline

Top 200 Poster

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,034
Florence, MA, USA
<<in all house concerts I'm aware of 100% of the door goes to pay the musicians.>>

For me, here's where its easy to understand how the semantics get bogged down. Joerath's argument in support of the quiet "non-commercial" activity included this reference to a cover charge which implies a commercial activity.

To most people, the term "concert" refers to something like the Rolling Stones and 10,000 rowdy kids trampling their neighborhood - so of course they don't want it on their street. If Bob went around to his neighbors and asked if they minded if he had a folk singer he knew from JPF play unplugged in his living room for 20 people on a Saturday afternoon (assuming he has a big enough living room and doesn't live in a studio apartment with paper thin walls) then they probably would wonder why he was asking permission instead of being in opposition.


------------------
Marty my home

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you
recognize a mistake when you make it again!


Marty my home

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again!
#165780 - 04/19/06 03:39 PM Re: Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts!  
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,372
Bob Young (D) Offline
Top 100 Poster
Bob Young (D)  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,372
chicago il usa
Yeah..but Marty, that's one of my main stickling points.

You can't guarantee that every one of these things is gonna be one folksinger playing for twenty people.

If your municipality is gonna allow that, how can they say no to anything else?

Fols are saying "we're not gonna let them tell us what we can and cannot do in our own homes"

Guess what...if you live in an incorporated area you have zoning restrictions.
That's what stops your neighbor from opening up a used car lot in the front yard !.

Now, Libertarians like Mike Dunbar might want to do away with those rules..I'm not speaking for Mike..I don't know where he would stand on that issue..but me...I'm happy not to have to worry about any kind of "concerts" next door to me.

Sorry folks...it's just not gonna happen...

Not if you try to legislate it...
I know for sure that any small venue owners in your town are gonna call the municipal;ity and say "How come I gotta pay for Dram Shop insurance and parking and loading zones and more insurance and BMI and ASCAP and all this other stuff while Mr and Mrs Smith get to hold these concerts that are cutting into my business and they get to go against the zoning laws to boot ??"

Like I said folks..try and keep this stuff cool and under the radar and you might get away with it.
Create a fuss and you're DONE !

Bob Young

#165781 - 04/19/06 05:27 PM Re: Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts!  
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,988
DukeWill Offline
Top 200 Poster
DukeWill  Offline
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,988
Louisiana, USA
Durn, we're getting governed to death! Oh, to own 20 acres out in the boonies again. That's what I'm going for in a year or so. I'll party when I want to.

I sure hope they win. Anything to help live music and especially original music. House concerts are no big deal as long as they handle parking okay.

------------------
HIGH GAS PRICES: Don't laugh! Beating oil companies and paying for song demo's: click here !

#165782 - 04/19/06 05:27 PM Re: Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts!  
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 473
Doug Barnett Offline
Top 500 Poster
Doug Barnett  Offline
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 473
Glendale, AZ, USA
Quote
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by bob young:


Like I said folks..try and keep this stuff cool and under the radar and you might get away with it.
Create a fuss and you're DONE !

</font>


I agree with Bob in a way - eventually these will be more and more visible because of how popular they are getting.
At some point there will be a fight about the legal points involved. If there is federal involvement then whatever they decide will be the law of the land.
I would much rather move to a new community in this country, that will allow a 'house concert' than to have to move to another country that still allows local resolution of local issues (not sure there is one).

if there is to be laws governing house concerts it should be governed by the people within hearing distance. If the federal government gets involved then the music industry will also want to get into it. you can guess what they will want to happen. they will see this as a loss of revenue and its a lot easier to throw a big pile of money into 1 court case than it is to throw it at thousands of local disputes.

#165783 - 04/19/06 08:36 PM Re: Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts!  
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6
joerath Offline
Casual Observer
joerath  Offline
Casual Observer

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6
Quote
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by bob young:

Not if you try to legislate it...
I know for sure that any small venue owners in your town are gonna call the municipality and say "How come I gotta pay for Dram Shop insurance and parking and loading zones and more insurance and BMI and ASCAP and all this other stuff while Mr and Mrs Smith get to hold these concerts that are cutting into my business and they get to go against the zoning laws to boot ??"

Like I said folks, try and keep this stuff cool and under the radar and you might get away with it.
Create a fuss and you're DONE !

Bob Young[/B]</font>


Bob, I can tell by what I've read from you that you're a professional devil's advocate. You've been around enough to know about a lot of things and can come up with unlimited scenarios. The points you've made have been insightful if not completely sympathetic or spot on.

Like the bit about the community room in your condo complex. We don't all have access to such facilities, besides they're hard to keep private sometimes.

You're point about the commercial enterprises crying foul is a great one. It's true that if word gets out, some curmudgeon with an axe to grind is gonna make damn sure that if his boat goes down so are all the other boats.

Though ASCAP, and BMI don't enter into it if your acts stick to their own material, the other costs associated with a commercial venue would make them jealous of house concert hosts.

The deal here is that the artists who are playing these shows are of a particular ilk. From the "not quite good enough to get into the established commercial venues", to "those who are too good for those same venues" but they all have one thing that appeals to house concert audiences: heart.

This is an odd way of stating that those venues such as show bars, amphitheatres, community concerts, music oriented coffeehouses, and the like are more geared toward the main stream. They want the same kind of music that would be on the (poor excuse for a) radio in this country, and that, my friend, is churned out for the typical consumer. Also, the main stream audience respects very little the sanctity of the performer. They mostly talk throughout the entire show. The folks who attend house concerts are not typical consumers. They are very respectful. Their tastes are more informed, and less accepting of commerciality. They run from the mass produced drek that spews forth from nearly everywhere you turn these days. They need alternatives to the alternatives offered.

It would be nice if all of those who would either host or attend house concerts, in any given community, would organize and form a non-profit association. They could then, collect funds for the rental of a small, acoustically correct, properly zoned, appropriately intimate venue in which to host shows. I know that in San Diego, where I reside, there is the San Diego Folk Heritage Society that is approximating that model. It's actually the way things have been done for a long time, and never has profit (except for that of the performer) been the motivation. Maybe that's what will have to happen if, like you said, this gets blown out of proportion and they shut us down.

Until then, viva la house concert. I've felt for years that an alternative audience was out there, That would appreciate the kind of music I write and perform, and that's flourishing on the house concert circuit these days. Trouble was, that audience was just sitting in their homes wishing they had something to do. The Question was: How to reach them? What it took was somebody dropping them an email about the party they'd attended the other night. The party that featured some guy or girl they'd never heard of before playing and singing such great music, that they couldn't believe they'd never heard of them before. That lead them to take a chance and go to some strangers house, where they met others just like themselves, who had been sitting waiting for something to do until they too got that email. Now, if all those people who have discovered the magic of house concerts suddenly get cut off from their supply... well, many things could happen. But my wish is that they'd unite somehow and come up with a non-controversial alternative and thrive and grow 'til they've become the force that drives the music in this world.

Sorry I get so long winded.

------------------
"We can all be little suns." - Joe Rathburn
http://www.JoeRathburn.com

[This message has been edited by joerath (edited 04-19-2006).]


"We can all be little suns." - Joe Rathburn
http://www.JoeRathburn.com
#165785 - 04/19/06 10:45 PM Re: Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts!  
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,372
Bob Young (D) Offline
Top 100 Poster
Bob Young (D)  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,372
chicago il usa
I have to admit..I've never been to a house concert.

About a year and a half ago Mike Dunbar was visiting Chicago and he invited me to a house party.
It was in a second floor walk up on the North side.
The place was packed with musicians and singers of every ilk and every level of talent.
There were folks who could barely play and folks I'd pay many dollars to go and see.
The kitchen was full of good food cooking, there were kids and dogs afoot and underfoot..laughter it was a WONDERFUL evening.

I had a couple of get togethers at my house over the years and they were great fun aswell..same recipe..food, a little dope, some cheap wine and lots of good music.
I think house concerts are a great way fro traveling musicians to pick up a few extra bucks to cover expenses while out on the road..lots of the commercial venues here in Chicago just use traveling entertainers on the weekends for not alot of money and it would be cool to fit in a couple of these things to put some extra money in the wallet.

BUT !

Ya gotta understand the facts..
You need to see both sides, the ups and the downs.
Remember, you're dealing with humans and eventually they will turn on you !

Have fun kids

Bob

#165786 - 04/20/06 01:39 PM Re: Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts!  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 943
Patrick Bryant Offline
Patrick Bryant  Offline

Top 500 Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 943
Glendale, CA, USA
Quote
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by bob young:
...Remember, you're dealing with humans and eventually they will turn on you !...
</font>


That's so true. I may have found my new sig line. [Linked Image]



------------------
Later,

Pat

#165787 - 04/20/06 08:49 PM Re: Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts!  
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,096
TrumanCoyote Offline
Top 100 Poster
TrumanCoyote  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,096
Quote
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Wirdaz:
The court battle is about the ability of the municiple council to ban everything and anything individuals may want to do in the privacy of their own home unless "they" (the council) have authorised it.

</font>


Wirdaz,

You and another poster kind of missed my point. I KNOW what the court battle is about. No explanation needed. The question was: if this is just another party, what is this flap all about? the answer is: it is not just another party. And that was my original point.

To recap...I said that a house concert is not the same as a party with entertainment. Someone else said it is EXACTLY the same thing. But OBVIOUSLY(!!!!) the zoning commission does NOT THINK THEY ARE THE SAME THING. If they did, there would be no problem!

I'm not saying that I am "right" just because the zoning ordinances in Somewhere, PA, ban house concsrts; I am just saying that there are those who quite obviously agree that it is not the same thing as hosting a birthday party and hiring a clown.

I think it is pretty apparent that the plaintiffs believe it is the same thing and they are going to base their court appeal on that opinion. In a legal sense, they are either the same or they are not. The court will interpret. That's what the court is for.

Some may find this hard to believe, but zoning boards do not exist to keep people from throwing parties or doing whatever they want. They exist so that businesses and other enterprises can co-exist with residences in such a way as to not subject residents to things that will unduly harm their property value, the sanctity of their homes, and the quality of their lives.

Because of zoning ordinances, my neighbor cannot erect a chicken farm next to my house. I think that is a good thing. Can he throw a little concert in his family room? I really don't know, but I wouldn't mind it if he did.

#165789 - 04/21/06 01:18 PM Re: Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts!  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,034
Marty Helly Offline
Marty Helly  Offline

Top 200 Poster

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,034
Florence, MA, USA
I think one of the main reasons neighbors may not want this type of activity going on is the "strangers in the neighborhood" aspect. If you host a private party, you normally invite people you know. (Except for maybe back in college days when its bigger is better...) By contrast, house concerts are often promoted by the host and the performer to the general public. Look at this site and see if you think this isn't a public event open to anyone who wants to pay a $10 cover. The public has details and directions to the neighborhood.

Now in this case - it appears they went to the zoning board to see if they would be in compliance if they did not promote on a web site and didn't collect donations. They were unable to get a determination that they would be in compliance with the Cease and Desist Order. So I can see why they would take it up a level.


------------------
Marty my home

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you
recognize a mistake when you make it again!

[This message has been edited by Marty Helly (edited 04-21-2006).]


Marty my home

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again!
#165790 - 04/21/06 04:38 PM Re: Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts!  
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,096
TrumanCoyote Offline
Top 100 Poster
TrumanCoyote  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,096
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wirdaz:
YES There is a difference between a house concert and a birthday party..

Thank you. That was the point I was trying to make.

...but that difference is really only important to the guests...

Here, we may differ. The difference may be improtant to the neighbors, or to the zoning commission, or, as Bob said, to local businesses who are trying to compete fairly.

I have been involved with a case that has some parallels, and I offer it just as a point of interest. A local school organization throws a Saturday carwash to raise money for a trip. It is a bunch of high school kids having fun and getting wet, while willing car-owners get their cars washed for less than it would typically cost at the carwash down the street. A local merchant donates a corner of his parking lot for the activity. It seems completely benign.

But the carwash owner complains that they are competing unfairly. Everyone thinks he is a scrooge, naturally. But the nature of his complaint is NOT that they took potential business from him. His complaint is that he was required by law to install a VERY expensive system to capture all of his waste water and recycle it so that the phosphates do not go into the drainage system. At the school carwash, all that pollution is going into the municipal drain. If it is okay for the kids to pollute, why is it a big, expensive problem for him? It is okay to break the EPA regs if you are only polluting a little bit? Do you make the exception because they are kids. Do you make the execption because the profit is for a good cause? And, is supporting the carwash owner's family not an equally good cause?

Furthermore, the carwash owner has to pay taxes and liability insurance and workman's comp in order to wash cars. He could NOT HIRE THOSE SAME KIDS to do that job for him because he would not be in compliance with child labor laws.

The guy only wants a level playing field where everyone has to play by the rules. Is the guy really a scrooge? I don't know and I don't wish to even state an opinion, but I submit to you all that the man has a legitimate point.



[This message has been edited by TrumanCoyote (edited 04-21-2006).]

#165792 - 04/22/06 06:27 AM Re: Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts!  
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 20
fran snyder Offline
Casual Observer
fran snyder  Offline
Casual Observer

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 20
Keller, TX USA
OK.. Has anything NOT been covered yet?

[Linked Image]

Still, glad to see the passion!

Fran Snyder
www.concertsinyourhome.com

Help America turn-off the television!

#165793 - 04/23/06 12:39 AM Re: Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts!  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Graham Henderson (D) Offline
Graham Henderson (D)  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Esperance. West Australia
If a person hired a Haidresser and had them operate out of their house, the council would be within their rights to say cease I would think.
I think the same would apply to hiring musicians.
It is a commercial endevour for the hired musicians if if nobody else.
And for the life of me, I can't imagine why anybody wold open their home to this activity if they were not expecting to gain from it themselves in some way.
Even if it was just to meet more chicks.
Or whatever they wanted to meet.
I believe in Bob Young's way of looking at it.
And much as I lovemy music and parties, I would be one of the scared motherless neighbours if it was mooted to be happening next door to me.
Bob's suggestion of hiring halls, is exactly what we used to do back in the 50's as none of our parents wanted that rock and roll stuff coming out of their place.
We formed a band on the limited practices we could get away with at home, Applied to Coiuncil for a permit to run a dance in a specific hall on a specific night, hand wrote flyers, payed the ticket of entry taxes, when buying the tickets, rang CocaCola and booked an icebox full of Coke for the night on the terms, we paid for what wassn't still in the icebox when they picked it up next morning, and we rocked on.
Oh yeah. We paid the cops, at their direction five pounds a night protection.
I used to get two pounds a night as bouncer and the band split the rest up twix themselves.
Often having to do a whip around to pay the cop's graft.
The only thing any of us regreted was that we were kids and so went along with what the cops told us we had to do to stay open.
All the musos involved have made part of their living, if not all ot it out of music since that day.
Well until most of them died anyway.
I believe it can, and should still be done.
Bar for the pay the cops of course.
Graham


------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhenderson_music.htm

#165794 - 04/23/06 10:02 AM Re: Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts!  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 497
Doug Heard Offline
Serious Contributor
Doug Heard  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 497
On the Road USA
The whole idea of the government telling you what you can do with your property is criminal, communist, and antihuman.

NO different that the government telling you paint your kitchen purple or we will shoot you.

Telling you what you can do with your property is not a function of government unless it is a communist government.

#165795 - 04/23/06 03:02 PM Re: Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts!  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,034
Marty Helly Offline
Marty Helly  Offline

Top 200 Poster

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,034
Florence, MA, USA
<<And for the life of me, I can't imagine why anybody wold open their home to this activity if they were not expecting to gain from it themselves in some way.>>

Graham - the people who host these things do it because they get to hear great music performed live in their living room. Its not a financial gain but they see an enormous gain. That's why they do it.

A lot like the reason I'll put the effort into organizing and participating in a JPF showcase. [Linked Image]


------------------
Marty my home

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you
recognize a mistake when you make it again!


Marty my home

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again!
#165796 - 04/23/06 04:36 PM Re: Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts!  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 19,414
Brian Austin Whitney Offline
Brian Austin Whitney  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 19,414
Indianapolis, IN USA
Graham,

You don't get paid to post on JPF.. yet you have more posts than anyone else. Why do you do it if there's no financial gain? You do it (most likely) because you enjoy it. That's the same reason to host a house concert or any other gathering at a home. It's no more complicated than that.

Brian


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@gmail.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney
Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

"It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..."

[Linked Image]
#165797 - 04/23/06 06:39 PM Re: Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts!  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Graham Henderson (D) Offline
Graham Henderson (D)  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Esperance. West Australia
But I do get paid Brian.
In the currency I am looking for too.
Education.
I have leant so much about so many aspects of music in my time on the net, I doubt I can ever pay back the favour.
I waould not do it, iof I wasn't getting what I wanted out of it.
Thing is, with houses, and living in a community.
Folks buy a house, or chose to rent in an area that suits them.
If somebody decided to hire a band, and advertise house concerts, that is going to bring a lot of traffic to that area, and has the potentioial to ruin the very atributes the folks in the neighbourhhod came there to enjoy.
Saying what a person can do in their own house without regard to it's impact on the community as a whole is like saying we can post anything we want on this forum without regard to what the terms of service say.
Bulldust.
Both situations would fall to bits without the rules they are run by.
Graham

------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhenderson_music.htm

#165798 - 04/23/06 10:22 PM Re: Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts!  
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,372
Bob Young (D) Offline
Top 100 Poster
Bob Young (D)  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,372
chicago il usa
well said, Cobber

Bob

#165801 - 04/24/06 12:02 AM Re: Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts!  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Graham Henderson (D) Offline
Graham Henderson (D)  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Esperance. West Australia
I find it hard to believe anybody who plays with words could class that as a comprehendable parallel Noel.
One is hiring musicians and hoping to attract a houseful of people to hear them.
For whatever they get out of it.
If they aren't getting something out of it, why not just buy the band record and listen to that?
Or go to their bonifide gigs?
The other thing is a householder is hiring a tradesman to do something toward the upkeep of the property, and so, hopefully, keeping the community standards up.
Perfectly common, and acceptable activities in any community I am sure.
Turning a private house into a public music venue anywhere is not so acceptable in my view.
Your lawnmower bloke will bring his one veihicle, and his tools along, and do a good job in the hope of getting more work from the neighbours when they see ya garden in the glory he made it.
The band, and the attendies will turn the street into a parking lot. Probably pee on the neighbour's gardens the Lawn mower bloke has so lovingly maintained.
And make a lot of noise, coming to, during, and leaving the gig.
Graham


------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhenderson_music.htm

#165803 - 04/24/06 11:52 AM Re: Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts!  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,034
Marty Helly Offline
Marty Helly  Offline

Top 200 Poster

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,034
Florence, MA, USA
I think Graham's last couple of posts are a perfect depiction of why the semantics of "concert" are a problem. There are laws that cover noise complaints and traffic issues and disorderly conduct. And yes if I hire a band and advertise to bring the world in and set up the drums and amps and PA so everyone within a mile or two can hear and 100 cars line the street blocking people's driveways and drunken strangers are wandering through the neighbor's yards - all of those are VALID reasons for shutting me down. I have had an impact on my neighbor's quiet enjoyment of their home.

But if I have hosted folk singers playing an unplugged acoustic guitar in my living room that you can't hear outside the house and in 8 years there's never been a noise complaint or parking ticket issued, then I think you're dealing with entirely different issues.


------------------
Marty my home

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you
recognize a mistake when you make it again!


Marty my home

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again!
#165804 - 04/24/06 03:22 PM Re: Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts!  
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 161
Pop Superhero Offline
Serious Contributor
Pop Superhero  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 161
Boston, MA, USA
I agree completely! We *MUST* support this issue quickly and LOUDLY ... or risk losing our voice forever. Just imagine: NO MORE HOUSE CONCERTS ... EVER. One grumpy neighber, and one new law later, this *could* be our reality. I featured this discussion in my MUSIC BLOG BELOW & I strongly encourage ALL of you to do the same. Get the word out!

********************************************

A House Concert is Illegal? Musicians File Complaint with the Federal Government!

Will "House Concerts" become illegal? One pair of musician "hosts" filed a complaint with the Federal Government, bringing these popular informal concerts National attention. They claim forcing them to stop their House Concerts has violated their First Ammendment right to assembly. The short version is: the couple held up to 8 private party performances, or house concerts, a year and neighbors complained to the zoning board because they live in a residential district. The couple stopped selling tickets and accepted donations only. They stopped advertizing and sent out email invitations only. The neighbors complained again. (NOTE: House Concerts are normally acoustic music, so I imagine that parking, and not sound volumne, was the problem. Remember, some areas have street parking ONLY! If it was a noise problem, the police could have fined them and be done with it.) The long term consequence of the complaint they filed may be that the Federal Government must pass new laws effecting ALL Indie musicians in the US that depend on house concerts, as part of their living wages.

Here is a "Just Plain Folks" forum thread that features many points of view: http://www.justplainfolks.org/ubb/Forum2/HTML/005428.html

GIRL POWER! Lynn 'JULIAN' a.k.a. Cookie Cutter Girl
"Girl Power Pop Superhero on OVER 500 TV & RADIO STATIONS!"
WEBSITE: http://www.CookieCutterGirl.com
EPK PRESS KIT: http://www.Sonicbids.com/lynnjulian


Strength Through Unity!

JULIAN aKa CCG Pop Superhero

WEBSITE: http://CookieCutterGirl.com
TWITTER: htt://Twitter.com/PopSuperhero
(FOLLOW ME for Free Music Contests!)
FACEBOOK: http://TinyURL.com/FacebookPopSuperhero
BLOG: http://InnerSuperhero.net
CUSTOM JEWELRY: http://VelvetChokers.com
#165805 - 04/24/06 07:45 PM Re: Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts!  
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,814
Herbie Gaines Offline
Top 100 Poster
Herbie Gaines  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,814
Chicago,IL, USA
I think the intention of the people having the house concert is to share the intimacy of the private performance with....THEIR FRIENDS!!!This is where all you people that are saying it's somehow commercial are WRONG. It's not about the performer (thought they may gain a drop of something, mostly just doing what they love). It's about enjoying it, then a year later when they're with their friends again, reminiscing about what a magical night it was. "Hey friend, wasn't it amazing seeing someone that talented perform right in our face?" My best memories of shows are seeing people in small little venues with just a few hundred people. What's commercial about me wanting to have this in my home, so my friends and I have this great memory? How did I gain commercially? Graham, the knowledge you gained on the site is what you wanted and you've stated so valuable to you. Isn't that commercial? Now you've used that knowledge to make karioke tracks and maybe make money with them!!


Herbie
JPF Chicago Chapter Coordinator
http://www.herbietunes.com

#165806 - 04/24/06 09:58 PM Re: Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts!  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Graham Henderson (D) Offline
Graham Henderson (D)  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Esperance. West Australia
Not according to my bank statement Herbie.
Or my horoscope for that matter.
I was being simplistic in that statement because I didn't want to stray from the subject too much.
It is still straying from the subject.
Basically. I came to the net looking for composer collaborators.
And I found a few I cherish
More important.
I found an education.
One to make it so i didn't have to look so desperatly any more.
One that enabled me to be able to even give a few tuneless poets, their first sing.
And to set them on the way of educating themselves also.
Calling anything I am doing at the moment commercial, is straying from reality Herbie.
Sure I make and perform home made karaoke tracks of my own songs.
And sure I send them to my daughters in Perth to also perform.
And yes. One of the karaoke operators ther has asked for and recieved some of them for him to do.
And yes. I will get my APRA dues from those performances as i wil;l from my own.
And yes. I do believe karoke is a great way for any writer to be able to get heard a bit more.
And yes. I am now in the proccess of making karaoke backings for cover songs I want to do which I preffer my arrangements to.
All done legally through APRA and AMCOS so the owners get their due of course.
Like pretty well everybody who created anything, I would love to have it make me a mint, but, basically, I realise, that is not likely to happen.
I still do it for the love of doing it, and the learning that brings with it.
Toward house concerts.
Most of the house concerts I have been to were rockers. Not sedate little acoustic things.
A lot of them have been shut down by the law for too much noise.
And rightly so too.
A lot of them weren't because they involved the wholoe neighbourhood so nobody complained.
Sure couldn't find a parking space that didn't entail quite a walk if you didn't get there early.
Calling it a donation rather than an entry fee is just a dodge.
Expecting a neighbouhood to put up with all the parking hassles a concert has to bring with it, totally disregarding any if any noise, is not the neighbourly thing to do.
Anywhere.
Graham


------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhenderson_music.htm

[This message has been edited by Graham (edited 04-24-2006).]

#165807 - 04/25/06 12:48 AM Re: Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts!  
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,327
James B. Mitchell Offline
Serious Contributor
James B. Mitchell  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,327
Moorpark, CA USA
Quote
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by girlintheband:
I agree completely! We *MUST* support this issue quickly and LOUDLY ... or risk losing our voice forever. Just imagine: NO MORE HOUSE CONCERTS ... EVER. One grumpy neighber, and one new law later, this *could* be our reality. </font>


I think this is a pretty extreme statement for what is happening. No new law is being passed here. A federal court is simply ruling on the right for a zoning board to restrict a certain activity if it doesn't fall into its definition of "permitted activities." Courts don't make laws; they rule on them.

If we're going to "get the word out", let's make sure the word we're getting out is the truth based on facts, not hype based on fear.

If the concern is that this case is drawing national attention and will force legislators to act regarding house concerts by passing a law, "getting the word out" is actually going to do more towards that end than this case will.

I think it's worth supporting, as I've said before, but I don't think we need to use panic or fear to get people to respond to the issue and I think we really need to ponder what the best course of action is.

- James

------------------
You can really only please one songwriter at a time. Might as well be yourself! :^)


Samples of my music at www.soundclick.com/jamesmitchell.htm


[This message has been edited by JamesM (edited 04-24-2006).]


You can really only please one songwriter at a time. Might as well be yourself! :^)


Samples of my music at http://www.soundclick.com/jamesmitchell.htm
#165808 - 05/03/06 07:33 AM Re: Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts!  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 19,414
Brian Austin Whitney Offline
Brian Austin Whitney  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 19,414
Indianapolis, IN USA
Still happy to get feedback from the new members visiting for the first time!

Brian


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@gmail.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney
Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

"It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..."

[Linked Image]
#165809 - 05/03/06 08:23 PM Re: Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts!  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,034
Marty Helly Offline
Marty Helly  Offline

Top 200 Poster

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,034
Florence, MA, USA
For those following the story -

Cindy updated the blog on april 24th so there is a little more detail to read.

http://livingroommusic.blogspot.com/


------------------
Marty my home

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you
recognize a mistake when you make it again!


Marty my home

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again!
#1083962 - 05/24/15 02:04 PM Re: Need Feedback and Discussion: Poltical Issue surrounding House Concerts! [Re: Marty Helly]  
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 983
Doug/Liszt Laughing Offline
Top 500 Poster
Doug/Liszt Laughing  Offline
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 983
Indiana
There was another thread around here regarding house concerts and within it was a discussion of insurance, etc. I can't find it, so I'll post this here.

Stu pointed out some things, like the need to consult your insurance company before proceeding, and of course he is correct.

Having worked in insurance for three years now, while insurance policies differ, it is not likely your standard personal home policy covers a house concert (if it can be defined as a commercial activity). There are usually exclusions for commercial activity in the liability clause of a personal home policy. I know of some policies (or the company's claims department) that basically define this as any activity making $1 or more. This means no coverage for Pampered Chef, Tupperware, all those kinds of parties, let alone a house concert that involves tickets or even the selling of CD's.

Someone had mentioned getting an umbrella policy to help cover this, but again, if it's a personal umbrella policy, it may exclude commercial activity.

You may have to obtain a commercial policy, and that may or may not co-exist with your personal homeowner's policy (i.e. the homeowners policy may want to cancel or non-renew because there is commercial activity on the premise). Depends on the company, etc.

The bottom line is, if you care about your liability in this situation, it is important to discuss EXACTLY what you are doing with your insurance agent. And I would have your agent review this with underwriting or the claims department - they are the ones who decide what the policy says at claims time - and believe it or not their interpretation of the policy can change over time...

I hope that helps.

Last edited by Doug/Liszt Laughing; 05/24/15 03:18 PM.

Boo...my name is Doug
Page 3 of 3
1 2 3

Moderated by  Brian Austin Whitney, E Swartz, Gary E. Andrews, John Lawrence Schick, Kevin Emmrich, niteshift 
Print Thread Switch to Threaded Mode /forum/forumhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.jpfolks.com%2Fforum%2Fubbthreads.php%2Ftopics%2F1083962%2Fre-need-feedback-and-discussion-poltical-issue-surrounding-house-conce.html
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0