JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Industry Message Forum UK Songwriter Slams Nashville 'laziness'

Luck is when opportunity and preparation connect.

Nah it aint dude. That's a cute expression and all but...

That saying applies to things that happen with much more regularity than becoming a hit songwriter.

In fact a buddy is a TV anchor. EVERY person he went to high school and college who pursued the same road, came up empty, they cant even get a job in the office of the news station.

He is very good, has the TV look, and even HE says he was lucky.
I actually think it WASNT luck, he is a great conversationlist and any time I saw him on TV, it was as if he were sitting and talking to me. A natural.

yet there are still tons more TV anchors than songwriters.

But that statement applies to say the business world, or job hunting, where the odds of it happening are much better.

If there is one door to Nashville and 10,000 people are looking for the door to open, still only one person is getting in.

That borders more on stupidity than preparation LOL

Ill give you a good comment. It has to do with greatness.

"Greatness is what we do when no one is watching"

if you write a great song, even if nobody is going to hear it, regardless if it has a chance in Nashville or as a commercial hit, you are just trying to wrtie a great song.

But how many of us want results?

Well we all have our experience, but in EVERY SINGLE instance of people's success in the music industry I have been around, they spent years preparing themselves, put themselves in proximaty to get opportunities and then were prepared when something came their way. MUCH MORE than just a saying.

My entire life is built around it, so I know it is a lot more than a saying. Luck does indeed play a part, but when the person is prepared, it is only a part.

MAB

Marc, I was lucky enough to be sitting with Mr Jop (Jop Wijlacker) of Hermes House Band on a flight from Graz in Austria to Frankfurt. (Google them, they are a very successful `party band`who have a lot of album\CDs out and who have been touring for almost 3 decades now http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes_House_Band )

He said exactly that. They got lucky...but of course recognized when opportunity came knocking and knew how to capitalize on it in a big way.

Their luck was in releasing a cover of Gloria Gaynor's "I will Survive", which was first picked up by Rotterdam's (their home town) soccer club Feyenoord as an anthem, then was picked up the the French World Cup team in 1998, the year they won the world cup, as their anthem. That got their cover worldwide exposure.

After that....

John, that is a pretty cool story.Glad you got to hear and share that. I think if you look at every successful situation in entertainment,you pretty much find these stories everywhere you look. My entire career is that way.

When my rock band, 24 KARAT broke up two years after winning the Miller High Life rock to Riches national band champion ship (American Idol of it's day)I was pretty despondent. I was as far as I could go in Birmingham and the rock world was changing around me, so I no longer wanted to be involved in that.

A chance meeting by my Father with his next door neighbor, just while picking up papers in the morning, told me about a songwriters meeting that was just getting started in Birmingham. i had never thought about Nashville or country so when I went, met a lot of people including Ron Muir, the guy who taught me everything I would learn about Nashville, I realized that might be an option.

I paid him to tutor me in the style of writing in Nashville (much the way I do today) and we wrote several songs. He took me to Nashville and produced my first tape of songs in a Nashville studio. I was blown away by the experience and when I visited the Bluebird cafe and saw the singer/songwriters with just guitar and voice I was hooked.

I moved to Nashville April fools day 1988,and started going to writers nights. On my first night, I was the first to sign up and the last to play as a full house came in and then left as the people they came to see played and left. Three people were left in the bar at a quarter to one when I did my three songs.

One guy,throwing darts in the bar, approached me and asked for a tape. He was not in the music business and just liked my "funny songs." Six months later I saw him and found out they had been trying to find me at Tree Publishing, the largest Nashville publisher.

It turned out his roomate WAS in the music business, working in the tape room next to a guy named ALAN JACKSON. He started playing my songs for different people, working it's way up to the Vice presidents office. (same office that 25 years later I would sign the contracts on Frankie Ballard)

One of the songs, THAT;S WHERE IT HURTS" was playing on the stereo with the door open when a producer, BILLY SHERRIL (Discovered Tammy Wynette and George Jones)walked by, heard the song and put it immediately on a singer he was producing, Shelby Lynne. Shelby was just coming out and she was going to be in a scene in a CBS television movie, ANOTHER PAIR OF ACES, starring Kris Kristofferson and Willie Nelson.
In the scene, Shelby was a barrom singer in a bar where Kris and Willie, playing a Texas Ranger and an ex-convict, meet a female character and end up two stepping her in the bar.

The scene called for a song with an extended intro, that kicked into a Texas two step. Our song did just that. And this was all done BEFORE they even knew who I was. I had recorded it before I moved to Nashville, and had no phone number. I shared the same name as a well known (and despised banjo player, who had been around for years.) So it took a while to find me. They did, we signed contracts and the song went into the movie.

It aired on television and my Dad, a co-writer on the song, got to see his biggest hero in the world, Willie Nelson, dance to his song. It got both our names mentioned in PEOPLE magazine, on a review of her "SUNRISE" album. It was the only song he ever wrote.

So two guys in bathrobes, meet, send a son to a random meeting, hooks up with a Nashville songwriter, learns about Nashville,writes and records the perfect song, and a career is started off.
Luck? Sure. But if we had not written the right song, if I had not had it fully recorded, if it had not been well represented when I was not there, if the right people had not heard it, none of that might have happened.

Luck. WHEN OPPORTUNITY AND PREPARATION MEET.
It's not just a saying. It's real life.

MAB

You know these cases because they were exceptions, that led to suprprising results, not in anyway typical

Do you think there have been songwriters, who were out on the town one night in Nashville, and walked right past, Reba or
Willie Nelson? And had a demo in their pocket, in case this night would happen?

And that they asked them to listen, and they said..."No, I dont listen to anything any more" or "if I were to listen to every demo people asked me to, id have no time to do anything, so no, Im sorry, do not give me your demo?

yeah, im thinking that happens every night of the week.

Just by pure chance there will be stories of success, and granted, being ready is the only way to capitlize, but you cant make it sound like this WILL happen.

there are too many talented people with no record deal or songwriting deals, out there to think otherwise.

Of course everybody successful has a story, thats because their story was the rare one that actually worked out!

Here is a girl, who never aspired to be in show business, when she was walking in a grocery store one day, hollywood found her!

She was not prepared, this was pure luck, and she probably had a better career than many people who were "preparing"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/24/tia-carrere-waynes-world-update_n_6926304.html

I would agree that preparation is extremely essential! Professional People didn't just decide to be a Doctor or Dentist or some other Professional. They went to school and put in the hard work. If you are not prepared and opportunity knocks you will most likely be passed over. I spent a lot of time and study preparing myself in the music business so I am prepared. You?

Actually, they DID decide to be a doctor or dentist.

They started probably in high school getting straight A's, and in college, and when it was evident they could handle the grades and the stress of being a doctor or dentist, they enrolled in medical school, where they were measured against other students, in a fair and regimented way.

The best students get priority, if you are not a genius, you are not going to Harvard Medical school.

In songwriting, there is no school, there is no test people must take to show how competent they are, or how talented they are.

it;s a free for all, unspecific road, which ones talents and abilities are NOT the deciding factor.

Way different.

Charlie, what Ray meant was that people don't just decide to start practicing dentistry or medicine, law or accounting etc tomorrow. It takes preparation and hard work...as you point out.


A reason I buy into "the statement" is that it is what really does happen in business ...something I have a great deal of experience in and have read and written extensively about and have consulted on for some 30 plus years.


What preparation does is allow you to recognize an opportunity when it presents itself (a lot of people do not have the experience to recognize a bone fide opportunity), and enables you to actually envision and devise an appropriate strategy to capitalize on it (something that insight and knowledge and know how gives you), and then to properly mobilize the necessary resources (something experience and wisdom allows you to do) to make it all happen.


So yes, the right song in front of the right person at the right place and time is "that luck" that represents the opportunity


Pure luck or chance, like being "discovered" happens, but is not the norm....just the Norma Jean

I know, what i meant was that there is no way to quantify how much preparedness helps one's songwriting career, because we only hear the successful stories, not the people who were prepared but got nowhere anyway.

And it doesnt change the odds. if 6 artists only realeased a song that was written by somebody else, you need to be one of those 6, with how many people in Nashville preparing?

You can go to a casino and prepare all you like, the odds are the odds. Patience, plenty of bank roll, refusal to chase, and the ability to walk away a winner or a loser, is the only way to stay ahead or even for a long time. The lucky ones are the ones who win the minute they sit down, but that luck eventually dies, and they walk out a loser anyway.

Being prepared is common sense really, it was stressed in us since grade school.

Anyway, the most extreme case of songwriting lure i've ever heard, but it kind of weakens my story because i cant remember the artist.

but apparently a songwriter broke into this artists home. And waited for her to come home (it might have been bonnie rait?) I dont remember, but imagine the set of stones he must have had to do that.

And for the artist not to freak out, she said "well your here already, might as well listen, and she really liked it"

anybody BUT that guy might have gotten throw in jail, either it was one hell of a song, or she found him attractive, i dont know which!

Write a song, get an indie artist or band to record it who performs in bars and outdoor music festivals. That's the best 99% of us songwriters can do and that's not a bad thing. I don't need a Blake Shelton to cut my song to make it worth something. As long as it's being listened to and is enjoyable and makes people happy then cool! That's all I can ask for as a creator of a song.

yeah, as long as you dont go broke trying to get a cut that pays you nothing.

People need to be realistic.

It's like those people you see on American Idol who think they are good when they suck. Nobody is telling them they suck or they don't listen when they are told. Either way you gotta be realistic.

Realistic means this is not a viable career path so do it for fun but for the love of god don't try to make it your livelihood.

it's a career to try if you are extremly passionate and cant see yourself doing anything else, IF, you are young.

If your going to do it, you have to do it all out, and you can only do that when you are 17, 18, where you can sleep on a park bench and eat cheerios fro breakfast and dinner.

And do it for a few years before you tire out of it.

the problem is it takes a long time to develope your craft, so you wont be as good at it at such a young age.

I agree you have to love it. And even though most people agree about this subject, we still see posts every day about "royalties, etc"

Royalties, are you kidding me?

I dont know why we see many "business" threads, and they seem to get the most responses, when everybody knows there isnt much to be had?

People like to think it's a lottery system. Maybe I'll get lucky one day. No you won't get lucky. But you might be lucky enough to get hit by lightning.

odds are better of getting hit by lightning twice, surviving the first one, and getting struck again, than having a hit song.

I was on a long road trip yesterday and listened to as much contemporary country as I could stand. Almost every song sounded like a hit single to me. By which I mean even with a mediocre singer with a $150 guitar chunking though it at an open mic you would be able to tell it was well written and sounded like the kind of song that is on the radio. Catchy riffs, great hooks, choruses you can sing along with by the end of the song, emotional content appealing to the target demographic, not a note or word out of place. I have no idea of the process by which they are arriving at this product but I'm certain it does not begin with "Oh, we can start with anything because all that really matters is our production." As my son pointed out to me last night, if that was how it worked Paris Hilton would have a recording career.

She does have a music career. She has two #1 songs. One from 2006 and the other from 2013 and she has an album coming out in May that is expected to do well. She's also been well received by the critics.

Actually Everybody,
To be successful in life you need to get educated in a whole lot of subjects. In school the most important word I ever saw, and remember, to this day was the word Observe! There it was. in my 3rd grade English book. Heading one lesson in the book. Your Education never stops. I still continue trying to improve my education! Today I can hold a conversation with a 3rd grader! No kidding! Write a Hit!

One thing millenials have learned is there is such a thing as too much education. It doesn't really help you a whole lot in the real world to go to school just to learn.
You only end up in debt with a degree that's worthless but if you observe what's going on as you said Ray, you won't fall into that trap and you'll go to a trade school. That's where the jobs are.

Today is my 28th anniversery of moving to Nashville. There are many things I have learned and among them is how many things have NOT changed. Charlie, we just have to agree to dissagree:

"In songwriting, there is no school, there is no test people must take to show how competent they are, or how talented they are."

Actually this is 100% wrong. That is what all of this is. Nashville itself IS THE CLASS. People move here every day. The classes are in the open mics, the writers nights, getting up every night trying to build co-writers, contacts, allies.
The days are spent working other jobs WHILE taking the private courses, doing workshops, going to industry events, finding out how things work from the street, writing songs with others, pledging the fraternity by staying when most people quit.

Over 600 people a week move here, offset by the arond 1200 people a week who move home or "DROP OUT". Almost all never make the grades, most just plain run out of gas and give up. Most never had the drive to begin with. They had teachers, relatives, friends, parents,grandparents that told them how great they were, but were either just being nice or blinded by their own love.

There are Freshman, sophomore, junior, seniors and each one last three years. It is called a "ten year town' because it takes that long to get the skill set, and for the connections to work into place. People that you move into town with or a little ahead of you that you interact with, move into their own publishing deals, become acts, get deals, sometimes that takes songs you have written with them into their new deals. A lot of time it doesn't. But you build upon it each day.

You develop your own repuation. For how easy you are to work with, how long you will stay involved, how passionate you are about it, and how good you make others look.

Artists have to do it two fold. They are learning the basics of the craft, the art, utilize that and then have to work on spreading and selling it "out there" in the hinterlands. An artist's income is 56% live performance, touring, merchandise. It is 9% recorded material.

It has always been a percent of a percent of a percent of people that even have a shot. And 85% of that is determined by outside sources. Political considerations are everywhere. It is a town of constant copetition, constant adaptation, constant awareness.

It is a town where the people who actually do it don't waste time whining about it. They do it. Everyone else who is left behind, don't get the breaks, or don't have the skill set, whine about it.

There are people who don't live here, but make continuous trips being a part of the community. They stay in hotels, do seminars and workshops, support resturants and bars, and build their own alliances. If they are really on top of their games, those alliances get get them in some back doors.Front doors have been closed for decades.

It is a business who it does not matter who YOU KNOW. It is totally on WHO KNOWS YOU AND HOW THEY KNOW YOU.

There are 'remote controllers' who want to hire song pluggers, go to film and television libraries, try to do everything without leaving the comfort of their homes. They completly miss the entire point of the town because it is not about SONGS. it is about PEOPLE. It is about RELATIONSHIPS.

When artists or writers become successful they have spent years building those relationships.When they write or perform for major companies like Sony or Warners, they are not going to put people a head of themselves in line. They are not going to open up to people they don't know or who have not done the same thing they have had to do.

Are their people that are lucky? Yep. There are tons of 18-25 year old kids who are being paraded by the established and hit writers who are the 'next big things.' There are the flash in the pans. There are people who are signed to record and publishing deals who make everyone shake their head at how they GOT THERE.

All of this has happened since before I even got here. And it is exactly the same today. The only thing different is that we now have an internet where people have a mistaken impression that they can phone it in without doing what the people who do this for real do. Some are very talented. Some are very good people. In fact most are. But they are very misinformed and often get very bitter, very angry when it is not what they think it is. They lend themselves to scams and schemes. That is what most of the Internet has become, a forum and soapbox for people to air their greivances. And the airwaves get poisoned in the bargain. We talk AT EACH OTHER, NOT TO EACH OTHER.

There are people all over the world who create their own niches. They find their own markets.Some do that through the Internet. Some have been able to ride that wave and get in on the ground floor. There are independent artists who might fly "under the radar' but find their own audience through viral social media. Some of those artists, get picked up by major labels or larger independents, and the writers with them, (usually they are more self contained) get brought along. But they have to have done something FIRST.

And yes, the money situation has changed. It has gotten worse. That is what happens when you put EVERYONE into a marketplace. If you go somewhere and every one is selling the exact same thing, it is going to devalue the value of any of that. If the consumer can get something for free,they are going to do it. That is why there are 60 millon 'freemium" (subscription based) music listeners, and THREE HUNDRED MILLION FREE music listeners.

It's a lottery, a casino, and a skill set all rolled into one. it can be fun, life altering and rewarding, or the most frustrating thing you have ever experienced. But people do it all the time every day and night. They are driven by compelling reasons they don't even understand. it is a passion. It is a life. Career,hobby, all rolled into one.

I sum it up in one line of one of my songs, TABLE AND CHAIRS:

"YOU DON'T CHOOSE MUSIC, MUSIC CHOOSES YOU."

That is what I live by and what I find most people who do this end up living by. It is about personal discovery and enjoyment.

The chorus of that same song:

I DO WHAT I DO FOR THE LOVE OF IT
SURE AIN'T FOR THE BUCKS
MAYBE SOME MAGIC WILL WANDER IN
IF I LOOK DEEP ENOUGH
CAUSE WHAT THEY SEE THREE HOURS A NIGHT
IS A TORTURED SOUL LAID BARE
SOMETIMES IT FEELS LIKE
I'M PLAYING FOR TABLES AND CHAIRS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kly3n79InrY

I wish you all well.

MAB

Today is my 28th anniversery of moving to Nashville. There are many things I have learned and among them is how many things have NOT changed. Charlie, we just have to agree to dissagree:

"In songwriting, there is no school, there is no test people must take to show how competent they are, or how talented they are."

Actually this is 100% wrong. That is what all of this is. Nashville itself IS THE CLASS. People move here every day. The classes are in the open mics, the writers nights, getting up every night trying to build co-writers, contacts, allies.
The days are spent working other jobs WHILE taking the private courses, doing workshops, going to industry events, finding out how things work from the street, writing songs with others, pledging the fraternity by staying when most people quit.

Over 600 people a week move here, offset by the arond 1200 people a week who move home or "DROP OUT". Almost all never make the grades, most just plain run out of gas and give up. Most never had the drive to begin with. They had teachers, relatives, friends, parents,grandparents that told them how great they were, but were either just being nice or blinded by their own love.

There are Freshman, sophomore, junior, seniors and each one last three years. It is called a "ten year town' because it takes that long to get the skill set, and for the connections to work into place. People that you move into town with or a little ahead of you that you interact with, move into their own publishing deals, become acts, get deals, sometimes that takes songs you have written with them into their new deals. A lot of time it doesn't. But you build upon it each day.

You develop your own repuation. For how easy you are to work with, how long you will stay involved, how passionate you are about it, and how good you make others look.

Artists have to do it two fold. They are learning the basics of the craft, the art, utilize that and then have to work on spreading and selling it "out there" in the hinterlands. An artist's income is 56% live performance, touring, merchandise. It is 9% recorded material.

It has always been a percent of a percent of a percent of people that even have a shot. And 85% of that is determined by outside sources. Political considerations are everywhere. It is a town of constant copetition, constant adaptation, constant awareness.

It is a town where the people who actually do it don't waste time whining about it. They do it. Everyone else who is left behind, don't get the breaks, or don't have the skill set, whine about it.

There are people who don't live here, but make continuous trips being a part of the community. They stay in hotels, do seminars and workshops, support resturants and bars, and build their own alliances. If they are really on top of their games, those alliances get get them in some back doors.Front doors have been closed for decades.

It is a business who it does not matter who YOU KNOW. It is totally on WHO KNOWS YOU AND HOW THEY KNOW YOU.

There are 'remote controllers' who want to hire song pluggers, go to film and television libraries, try to do everything without leaving the comfort of their homes. They completly miss the entire point of the town because it is not about SONGS. it is about PEOPLE. It is about RELATIONSHIPS.

When artists or writers become successful they have spent years building those relationships.When they write or perform for major companies like Sony or Warners, they are not going to put people a head of themselves in line. They are not going to open up to people they don't know or who have not done the same thing they have had to do.

Are their people that are lucky? Yep. There are tons of 18-25 year old kids who are being paraded by the established and hit writers who are the 'next big things.' There are the flash in the pans. There are people who are signed to record and publishing deals who make everyone shake their head at how they GOT THERE.

All of this has happened since before I even got here. And it is exactly the same today. The only thing different is that we now have an internet where people have a mistaken impression that they can phone it in without doing what the people who do this for real do. Some are very talented. Some are very good people. In fact most are. But they are very misinformed and often get very bitter, very angry when it is not what they think it is. They lend themselves to scams and schemes. That is what most of the Internet has become, a forum and soapbox for people to air their greivances. And the airwaves get poisoned in the bargain. We talk AT EACH OTHER, NOT TO EACH OTHER.

There are people all over the world who create their own niches. They find their own markets.Some do that through the Internet. Some have been able to ride that wave and get in on the ground floor. There are independent artists who might fly "under the radar' but find their own audience through viral social media. Some of those artists, get picked up by major labels or larger independents, and the writers with them, (usually they are more self contained) get brought along. But they have to have done something FIRST.

And yes, the money situation has changed. It has gotten worse. That is what happens when you put EVERYONE into a marketplace. If you go somewhere and every one is selling the exact same thing, it is going to devalue the value of any of that. If the consumer can get something for free,they are going to do it. That is why there are 60 millon 'freemium" (subscription based) music listeners, and THREE HUNDRED MILLION FREE music listeners.

It's a lottery, a casino, and a skill set all rolled into one. it can be fun, life altering and rewarding, or the most frustrating thing you have ever experienced. But people do it all the time every day and night. They are driven by compelling reasons they don't even understand. it is a passion. It is a life. Career,hobby, all rolled into one.

I sum it up in one line of one of my songs, TABLE AND CHAIRS:

"YOU DON'T CHOOSE MUSIC, MUSIC CHOOSES YOU."

That is what I live by and what I find most people who do this end up living by. It is about personal discovery and enjoyment.

The chorus of that same song:

I DO WHAT I DO FOR THE LOVE OF IT
SURE AIN'T FOR THE BUCKS
MAYBE SOME MAGIC WILL WANDER IN
IF I LOOK DEEP ENOUGH
CAUSE WHAT THEY SEE THREE HOURS A NIGHT
IS A TORTURED SOUL LAID BARE
SOMETIMES IT FEELS LIKE
I'M PLAYING FOR TABLES AND CHAIRS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kly3n79InrY

I wish you all well.

MAB

"Actually this is 100% wrong. That is what all of this is. Nashville itself IS THE CLASS. People move here every day. The classes are in the open mics, the writers nights, getting up every night trying to build co-writers, contacts, allies.
The days are spent working other jobs WHILE taking the private courses, doing workshops, going to industry events, finding out how things work from the street, writing songs with others, pledging the fraternity by staying when most people quit."

LOL, iy yi yi. Way to seque into that Marc. Nashville is NO school, it's for social networking. .

In medical school, you can be the most anti social dolt on the planet, keep to yourself and not talk to anyone, if your good enough to go, you can go.

In music, songwriting, there is no standard, there is no exam to be paased like an mcat to prove you are a capable songwriter or a talented musician.

That is a massive stretch lol, and i thought we already agreed that moving to Nashville for a non-paying cut was ludacris?

Hey, in a way, Im glad there is no entrance exam for music, there is for studying it in college, but not for commercial music.

Because I think life would be really boring and a downer if we had people with their arms folded "Nope not good enough, you cant be a songwriter"

There is no way to measure because music is subjective. It's one person speaking to another, to some, they may not like what they are speaking, but to someone else it may well hit home.

The music business has always been about marketability, and not skill, because the average person buys what sounds good to their ear, not anyone elses ear.

it;s a good thing, because it gives everybody a lottery shot, and a chance for some starry eyed kid to walk into a music store and ask his Mom to buy him a guitar, and POSSIBLY, make it sound good enough to have a hit or at least do something frutiful with it

Music is not a competetion, but You did cause a chuckle calling the Nashvile the school LOLLLL

Hey Marc....a LOT of great points and love your lyric and will listen to the song after I write this. One observation from an over the hill 69 year young ex hippie. We talked about a Singer Songwriter FINDING His Audience or Niche or Cause. I wrote this song last week and posted it two days ago at a few places including my you tube page. It's about the world's going crazy and I just need a break. The song is called DROPPING OUT and I've gotten more comments about this song than almost any other in a short time. BUT The real interesting thing is that they are ALL MEN....lol That could be another song but I found it interesting HOW Many of these guys want to join my DROPPING OUT Club and most have no way to do it.....Just an Audience here that maybe I can tap into a little further of MORE Songs about the Plight of the American guy who after awhile realizes he is not going to be a millionaire entrepreneur or on the fast track, has three kids and a struggling marriage, some health problems and depressed most of the time and on and on. It sounds like there are probably MANY Men out there that feel this way and I know two that personally would like to leave their Lives in the Middle of the Night with no forwarding address.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RkM_1-sJ2Q&list=UUoT7YwZk4FLagioii_zuLCw

Love your commentary and Your life could be a Broadway Musical....lol Fodder for some thought. The TV SHOW Nashville is too much a Soap Opera but a REAL Blood and Guts Story/Musical would really be cool.
Barry bdbutler@centurylink.net

LOVE the song AND your Vocals etc.
First time I've gotten to hear you and was impressed with what I heard AND Saw.

I wrote a song similar with my buddy Phyllis called PLAYING TO AN EMPTY ROOM...In my playing days I played to NOBODY more times than I played to somebody....lol I got used to it after awhile.
Anyway....You sound GREAT my friend and would pay to see you...lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjyurwEliHw

Charlie,

I'm glad you got a chuckle out of it, but I got an even bigger one because if you had ever been here, and been through this place, you would find it is EXACTLY like a school. and regarded as that as pretty much everyone who has ever been involved in it.
No school? Really?

you have 'classmates" who are the people you move in with. Also the people who moved in a little before you and the people who come in a little after you.You all do the same writes nights, go from open mics to invited rounds, have guitar pulls parties, social events.The classes are called CO-WRITES and you are always trying to work with people who know more than you but for about three years you are gonig to be relegated to your own class.

You do recording sessions and learn about that class. You take seminars and workshops. You build allies and partnerships all the time. Social? You bet.Which is why most outsiders never get Nashville,the business or how anything gets done. When they focus only on songs, they miss the entire aspect of relationships,which is another class that you have to master.

They watch 90% of the people they move in with drop out and move home. They work to be invited into co-writes, writers rounds, shows, benefits, etc. with higher, better and well placed writers. The passing grades are the REFERALLS, when other people talk about them, refer them to other co-writers, get them into writers circles.

The grades are the songs they write and level they get to. Getting better recording sessions. Writers working with more artists, artists working with more established writers,producers,publishers, label people, managers, agents, all of those come from REFERALLS, and require passing grades both in ability and social skills.

The higher level undergraduates, start getting cuts, start producing their own artists and sessions, start finding their name and reputation talked about. The graduate students move into actual being pulled in to write for companies, become artists, or actually become the stars and the hit writers.

I am not the first one who referred to it this way/ the first time I heard it was by Billy Sherril, who discovered Tammy Wynette and George Jones, but have heard it echoed by every writer, artist, producer, publisher song plugger, publicist, studio musician I have ever met. Even the famous people like Funk Brother Bassist Bob Babbit, who was featured on 1000's of Motown hits like SIGNED SEALED DELIVERED, all of STEVIE WONDERS HITS, the SPINNERS RUBBER BAND MAN and tons of others, said "It is going to school, man, and you start all over, and have to relearn some of the stuff you forgot and up date on things you never knew."

And you COMPETE 100% every day, every song, every session. It is all competition. Everyone has their own dog in the hunt.Everyone has their own songs, their own artists, their own companies.the reason no one can get heard without allies is that songs are the SPAM EMAILS that everybody has and no one wants until they are a part of something.

So Charlie, you can chuckle all you want to. You can laugh guffaw and whatever, but really the last laugh is on you, because it is 100% a school and 100% competition and those that don't realize that will always be left far behind in the dust. Might want to spend a little time finding out about hit songs, hit writers and artists and how they got to where they were. What they had to learn, and how they advanced over the years in their careers. Might want to find out about the lessons they had to learn and how they learned them.

Because while there might not be a formal "campus", outside the five music schools and the actual Music Row and Berry Hill business areas, it is ALL AN INFORMAL CAMPUS. It is all about going to class and getting schooled.

The people who don't see that are always going to miss it.

MAB

I said, that with medical school, you have to demonstrate that you are smart enough and learnable enough to be admitted into school.

In music, and in songwriting, this is not necessary, according to yourself, what you have to do is move to nashville and build relationships.

None of which take any musical or songwriting skill.

The main point is on fairness and being great, determining your fate

If you want to be a Doctor, you cant just move to Boston, and talk your way into medical school.

To add to the point, do you tell anybody who wants to sign up with you, that, You know, your songs stink, dont waste your time?

Im guessing no, and this person may well end up writing a hit song. THERE IS NO CRITERIA, there is only happenstance, luck, timing, and being in the right place of the time

At least acknowledge me on this.

Barry,

Thanks for all that. I was actually looking for a different version of that one on You Tube, where I didn't talk quite so much, but it is always my closing song so it has a little more set up on it as it is really the last song done on the nights. There was one filmed in Huntsville Alabama at Von Braun Civic center and three cameras, but I couldn't find that one. There are dozens on YOU TUBE, a lot of people film it with camera phones and post it. I get sent links to them all the time and am kind of amazed at how many people connect with that one.

On the Nashville TV show, you are actually more right than you know. The creator and writer of that show is a woman named Kallie Chori. For about four years she was the bartender and manager of a place called MAUDES COURTYARD. That was a local watering hole hang out for a lot of people like me and all the crazy ass songwriters that would hang out there in the afternoons after recording and writing sessions (it was two blocks from Music Row), and the stories would be flying.

I talked to her many times about a lot of the things that went on with me and more than one time several of my friends who watch it religiously, (my girlfriend loves it. I have already lived it) will call or email me and say, "THEY'RE TELLING YOUR STORY!!!" I've watched it more than a few times and felt "yeah,been there, done that, got the t-shirt."

The truth is we all go through many of the same things,same situations, same ups and downs. Which leads me to the story I was going to tell you.

In 2000, I was at the end of my rope. A 6 year publishing deal, had gotten cuts but no singers. Everyone around me had gotten record deals, the KINLEYS, BIG AND RICH, GRETCHEN WILSON, and many many more, had all been hanging out with me and then moved on to hit songs, big deals, contracts, money, etc. I was always waving at another tour bus.

A friend of mine, hit songwriter DAVID VINCENT WILLIAMS, who wrote Rascal Flatts "I'M MOVING ON" and was a great buddy. WE literally ran into each other coming in and out of a restroom downtown and he asked me what I was doing. the publishing company I had written for built a huge recording studio and ran out of money to pay me. So I was losing that deal.
He told me he HAD a deal for me with a new publishing thing he was doing. For the next few months I met with him,his partner and the publishing parent company, WARNER CHAPPEL,who was the second largest company in Nashville.

We had the entire deal put together and just had to wait till my other deal expired. Everything was great and I was even picking out my office. Then in order to keep money coming in, I went on a tour in Florida, performing at several places I usually play down there.
While I was gone they asked for my attorney to come initial the contract so we would be a go and they could issue me a check. The attorney representing me said he would do so. When I got back into town, NO ONE would call me back. They pushed me off at the office, acted like I had shot someone.
finally at a party,my friend came up to me incredibly angry asking me "what the F**K had happened?"

I told him I did not know and he proceeded to tell me that the lawyer had physically looked at the contracct, then threw it back in the face of the president of the company saying it wasn't enough money and walked out. It stabbed me in the back with every body I knew, and nearly destroyed my reputation because everyone thought I was in on it. I was not. But no one let me explain.

I was so upset, I was quitting Nashville and the music business,until some NSAI groups started asking me to come to their workshops and mentor their groups. That is what led to my workshop program and then my songwriter tours where people come to Nashville to work with me. That is what I do today.
I am very happy and very satisfied at where I am. Saved my life.
And Warner Chappel was happy because they didn't sign me and signed Don Rawlings, who wrote "IT'S FIVE OCKLOCK SOMEWHERE" the number one for Alan Jackson and Jimmy Buffet. With that and I'm Moving On, my friend's company got back to back songs of the year.

This past Sunday I happened to be having breakfast and saw my friend's partner, the publisher who got really screwed in the deal but had the back to back number ones.I invited him and his wife over, as we have since made up and are friends again. We got to talking about it and I explained him some things I never was able to and we had a big laugh.
Then he told me that he had just put together a deal for the writer of "ALL ABOUT THE BASS" the Megan Trainor super hit. In the middle of negotiations, THAT GUYS LAWYER STARTED ACTING WEIRD TOO!!!
And he and the original president of Warner that was involved in my deal, started talking about and said "Oh NO, we've got another Marc-Alan Barnette fiasco!!!!"

So you really know you have been in Nashville a long time when you are used to describe a bad deal that never went down. LOL!

Another day in Twang Town!
MAB

You're the one that got away, with all the great stories to tell, Marc. Happy 28th anniversery :-)

"To add to the point, do you tell anybody who wants to sign up with you, that, You know, your songs stink, dont waste your time?"

Charlie, yes and no. While I don't tell ANYONE to NOT WASTE THEIR TIME, I SHOW THEM, where the bar is. I explain elements of songwriting, of perspective, of focus, and try to get them to see it themselves.

Most of the time, it is not that their songs STINK (although there are a few that do), they are not really good, or bad, just fairly average. I will go through multiple songs, usually between six and eight, go line by line, note by note, and give perspectives, and critiques based around that. I also give them perspective from the people they would be playing for, publishers, other writers, ASCAP, BMI, etc.

In many instances, people have already gone through a lot of things BEFORE they get to me.i do more damage control than anything. People have told them that there are things wrong with their songs, but not really explained why it is wrong.

And often, if you lay it out where they can see it, it starts being understandable. A lot has to do with TONE. Most writers and artists will go NEGATIVE because those are emotions they deal with all the time. They will have ACSS (Angry Chick Singer Syndrome) or DDSS (Depressed dude Singer Syndrome.) Everything is horrible and terrible. The girls are pissed at the guys, the guys are pissed at themselves for losing the girls by treating them like crap.

They use the same lines, same titles, same rhymes as the things that are already out there.They say the same things in the same ways, their verses and choruses are indistinguisable from each other. They do too many ballads. They have songwiter tunnelvision, where they understand exactly what they are talking about but you would have to have a decoder ring to figure out what they are saying. You look at lyric sheets for reference and it is like they left out entire chunks of the story of the song and none of it makes any sense. They write five six and seven minute songs that don't say anything different in the fifth or sixth verses they said in the first.

They sound exactly like people that are already out there. girls sound just like Taylor Swift or Miranda Lambert, Guys are all over the map, figuring if they can just put a steel guitar over their rap sections it will be country.

There are "square pegs in round holes' that not only don't fit into country, but doesn't fit into ANY DEFINABLE CATAGORY. They can't even tell you where it should go. They write songs that sound like self absorbed therapy sessions. They write issue oriented songs on things that happened ten years ago and nobody remembers.

I see this pretty much every day. I try to explain it all and then usually I write something with them to show them the process. I get them to talk about their lives, their passions, their experiences, and show them how to put that into a tight interesting song. If they give me a style of artist they like, I can usually pull something together in about 2 hours and hit the target 98% of the time.
Usually if you can get them talking they actually will say lines that they don't even realize are lines. It is just conversation. That makes it feel more REAL. And in this day and age, REALITY is the key. People want to hear something that sounds like the sing is singing about THEIR LIFE.

Sometimes I help them with their own pain and how to get through it. One week in Los angeles I had four out of six writing appoimntments in three days, with women who were all wanting to write songs about their Dead Fathers. I called it DEAD DADDY WEEK. The songs, while each interesting, because each was individual information based upon their lives. But not exactly the most pitchable songs.

In instances with my more advanced artists and writers, I try to pull the two together getting younger artists and older writers, with me in the middle, helping each of them see the other's perspective and putting it into a tangible songs.
Many of those songs get recorded, get on web sites, become part of the singer and the writers catalogue. Some have gotten them other co-writes based upon my reputation. A few have signed publishing deals, and three have had the door opened for their record deals based upon material I wrote with them.

I think everyone can be a BETTER songwriter,if they just look at things objectively, keep their ego in check and work with people that know more than they do. I have seen people with VERY LIMITED talent go on to huge heights, just because they stuck with it. I have seen people become home town heroes and the big fish in their little ponds.
I have seen them move to Nashville and move home. I have been involved with a lot of people in a lot of ways and I feel like I always give them a lot of value for what they pay me.

I never crush dreams but I always inject it with reality. And my job is always to SHOW THEM.

I had two women from Lexington Kentucky come do one of my tours. One was a performer whose goal was to play a Nashville writers night. She wanted performance tips because she had seen some of my videos on YOU TUBE and someone I had worked with told her how to get with me.
The woman with her was also a writer but was mostly along for the ride. The day went where I was with the both of them and getting them to play songs. The performer would play, I would break it down and give her tips. Then I would help her pick her best two songs to play on the show that I had set up for her.

After I did about four songs, i trned to the non-performer to ask her what she wanted to do. She didn't want to play anything because "She understood people in Nashville STOLE SONGS and she didn't want to play her songs for anyone who would steal them."

I told her that was a myth and everyone wrote pretty much the same things. She argued with me but finally brought out a song she had never played for anyone. I looked at the lyric sheet and it was the most overused mediocre title and song I had heard a million times before. i listened fully and told her at the end how many times I had heard it. She argued that she had never played it for anyone, and after a while we went on.

That evening we went to the show. when people want to play, I will often book myself onto a show and pull them up letting them do a couple songs so they don't have to wait until midnight. I keep people drinking and eating so hosts like me.

The host asked me when we wanted to go on. i told them that they were driving back to Lexington but I wanted them to see something before they went back. So I had him put a round on before us.

The first guy, first song, started out almost exactly like that woman;s song. the first line was the same, second, third, fourth and the CHORUS WAS IDENTICAL. Even the hook was the same. I watched her mouth get wider and wider as he went because she had NEVER PLAYED THIS SONG FOR ANYONE!!!!
She turned to me when it was over, shocked and had this totally weird look on her face.

I said "Welcome to twang town."

That is what it is mostly like. Most songs, artists, textures are just the same. It takes a lot to figure out how to write that clever intersting thing that takes people somewhere they haven't gone before or at least as much.And to get those to advance through all the levels. That is all part of the "SCHOOL" aspect i keep talking about.

MAB

Fair enough.

I do think you are giving the songs that are making it out of Nashville these days too much credit. Are they good? Sure, are there better songs out there? 100% yes.

People who take songwriting very seriously and have worked on their craft, take a blow to the chin every time something bad becomes a hit.

We can say "Well how can you call a hit song bad" well we can, if we understand what good songwriting is.

Do people want to buy great songwriting? probably not, espepcially today, I think the production matters more today, but it's hard to hit a bullseye with a bow and arrow from 100 yards away, and when somebody is allowed to walk up to the bullseye and hit it from 5 feet, it makes the archer wonder what the hell happened.

All a songwriter can do is write a great song. If they want to have a hit song, they might have to try to write a less than great song, but has some marketability to it.

I figure whatever im going to do with music, is going to be myself doing it, im never going to have a song cut by a major artist, so why nickel and dime with an indie.

I might as well release my own album if im not going to make anything

but one thing I wont do, and Im wired this way, I wont lose money on the deal, that makes no sense to me. Cost of a good recording perhaps. But that is for me, im not paying for others to reject me

The best ever rhyme I heard in a song was when Bow Wow rhymed Fast car with Nascar. That is the kind of ingenuity people need to write!

I dare anyone to find a better rhyme.

I know a good way to come up with good hooks. Just turn a phrase.

Keep on keepin' on - turns into Keep on keepin' gone.

turned Git'r dun into Git'r Gone

Beauty's in the eyes of the beholder turned that into Beauty's in the eyes of the beerholder

Just find a phrase and turn it. I'm sure all of those hooks were taken as it doesn't take a genius to figure that formula out.

Finding the hook is the easiest part though. Writing is is the hardest. And then it becomes a race to the finish line.

I surf reverbnation and you wouldn't believe all of the beer songs like get me a beer or get my beer drinkin on. Like c'mon are you even trying people? That's so lazy. Writing a song just about drinking is dumb. Do people even wanna stand out or do they really believe people wanna hear that? Ya gotta come at those ones with a different angle.

That beer goggles song is brilliant. The More I Drink by blake shelton
Obviously friends in low places

Those are songs

I just listened to before he cheats by carrie and realized maybe there's a song called Before He's Faithful. What are the chances that someone else came up witn that hook the same way? I won't even guess but someone probably has out there in Nashville

Actually it's "NEXT TIME HE CHEATS' That is the Carrie Underwood song.

Hey MARC.....when I was a young Buck living in Manhattan in 1969 I did what then was called a Hootnanny....same what they have in Nashville but where anybody can do anything...lol....at the end of the evening the audience voted on the best in show....lol
Well A bunch of songwriters and singers and yoddlers and poets and then ME....I sang my greatest song which I thought was great and sang my heart out. Even thought I'd win BUT THEN came this 80 year old guy coming out of the men's room wearing a Diaper carrying a Manhattan Phone Book......huh? you ask.
That old geezer got on the stage, smiled at the audience with no teeth in his mouth and proceeded to rip that entire phone book in half. THE Drunks all went crazy and awarded him First Place and I was mortified. BTW first prize was a BUD Light....lol
Not sure what the moral of that story is but I have a LOT OF THOSE....I was even recording in Nashville in 1972 I think with some quack named Duke Hall. A Freaking Disaster and some of the funniest most awful stuff happened in that month that almost killed me. When I got back to NY I met with some guy at Jubilee Records and he liked my writing and wanted to give me some kind of publishing deal....I told him I was all excited and started to tell my two buddies in my band and he stopped me.....Did they write the songs ? I said no I did and he said he just wanted me. He just got a new job at Columbia Music Publishing and saw potential in me......DO YOU KNOW what I DID? I told him NO not without my band.....and friends....one guy played the harmonica with half a lip and the other guy played the worst bass I ever heard but he was my Cousin....YOUTH and no experience? UGH....True stories....I got as many as you but not in Nashville or Country Music....My Journey from There to here....wow what a disaster and a learning process.

It is what it is....sure to be a hit....lol

There is a new one out on Social Security Records called
DRUNK AT THE FUNERAL PARLOR...
Not kidding....lol

And I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't people saying something similar 90 years ago when "Yes! We Have No Bananas" hit number one. And over and over since then. And long before that as well.

You and I are probably talking in circles here. My starting point was the article in the original post about the guy from the U.K. trying to market songs to Nashville. Which, of course, involves "marketability." If one isn't OK with that objective, I don't see much of a point in trying to peddle songs to the recording industry in Nashville.

If, on the other hand, one's goal is to create songs that people will like and hypothetically buy resulting in one earning a living then it would seem to me the better approach would be to try to figure out why something "bad" became a hit rather than perceive it as a "blow to the chin."

They became hits because the people who wrote them had an in. They ran through MAB's system and played the game.

Any song recorded well if played on radio long enough will become a hit, it's been proven that exposure breeds content.

So the question is not how the SONG became a hit, it's how the person who wrote it got in the position to make it a hit.

You can study those songs and I have, and you wont find much to work with, you can write one exactly like the hit, but if you are on this forum, and not in somebody in powers reach, its not becoming a hit

Before songs used to get "over" by pushing money at radio stations to spin the songs. I don't know how much of that still goes on. Maybe Marc can tell us.

"I do think you are giving the songs that are making it out of Nashville these days too much credit. Are they good? Sure, are there better songs out there? 100% yes."- Charley

Charley,

Now you are talking about a different subject and on that I would whole heartedly agree with you. There is MORE THAN ENOUGH CRAP out there and the thing is ALL THE PEOPLE IN NASHVILLE KNOW IT TOO. Every artist, every writer, every producer, every label, every publisher,have songs the love MUCH MORE than things that get on the radio, some even get embarrised from some of their least favorite songs.

You know Aaron, you mention "FRIENDS IN LOW PLACES." One of the writers of that song, Earl Bud Lee, a friend of mine, won't even play that song live. He doesn;t like it at all and would rather do his "serious" songs. Gets very irritating when people come see him for that song and he won't do it.

There are songs that take off that weren't intended to do anything. A couple years back, Toby Keith had a song called 'RED SOLO CUP." It was a silly, stupid party song about drinking. The whole thing was just a joke and a dare. Two sets of brothers, Brett and Brad Warren, Jim and Brett Beaver were just around one afternoon and bet each other who could write the "stupidest song imaginable." Brett Warren was drinking out of a Red solo cup and they decided to write that.

As another joke they played their "newest masterpiece" at a party and Toby Keith heard it. He thought it was totally stupid but wanted to see how far he could take it.The result was one of the most idiotic songs out there but it caught on HUGE with colleges, at every Fraternity party in the world it was the theme song.
So it was just a silly thing that happened. Nobody really planned it.

Conversely, every company has some of "those songs' they love, but never go anywhere. From time to time, they reserface and might do well. Allen Shamblin and Tom Douglas, two very successful writers had this song that they couldn't get cut by anyone. It was turned down by everybody and was kind of labeled as an oversentamental ballad. 13 years after writing it, it found its way to Blake Shelton, who was trying to decide if he was going to cut it but then he passed on it. But he played it for his wife, Miranda Lambert, and she went crazy for it because it reminded her of her house growing up. That was "the House that Built Me", which most people conssider a pretty brilliant piece of writing.

And as we were talking of demos, that can be interesting too. Two writers, Frank Meyers and Gary Baker, had a song for 8 years that was demoed as a pop song. Nothing happened to it and they revisited it 8 years later. They redemoed the song country, and it was cut almost the next day by artist John Micheal Montgomery. The song was "I SWEAR' and became one of the biggest wedding songs of the decade. Right after it came out as a country hit, pop group BOYS TO MEN, recorded the pop version and it became a huge hit almost at the same time on the pop charts.

Songs, artists and writers all have very odd pathways sometimes. And the relationship, someone talking about someone else, someone having the right song at the right time, the political clout all aligning and the fans eating it up, all of that has to happen. That is why I say you can't isolate just one part of this equation.

It was what I was trying to give in the analogy of the casino.

You could go to a casino, stand in the parking lot, see things going on, but you wouldn't make any money.

You could go into the lobby of the casino, see all the machines, the people, hear the noises,the lights,the smells,but you still wouldn't make any money.

You could go to a slot machine or Blackjack table and put some money down,and still more than likely lose,but it would be more of a chance than just standing in the lobby or WAY more than just standing in the parking lot.

Nashville is like that and so is the rest of the entertainment business. The things I am describing to you, what I call the "school aspect" is what everyone who does things in this town goes through. Writing songs, showing up, playing to tables and chairs, being ignored, working their way up, working three jobs just to stay here, staying when everyone else leaves, are what we do. And even with that, it doesn't guarantee anything. It just gets you in the game.

That is what I am trying to explain. There are incredible artists, writers, songs, bands, etc. that are out there that never get a shot.There are mediocre, total twits, bad songs, silly things that do work. Can't figure most of it out. all you can do is work on yourself and try the best you can. If you have some education about you and common sense you can make some inroads without going broke.
You may never get rich, but you also don't have to go bankrupt.

But you SHOULD be enjoying yourself. Quit thinking about the business stuff. Quit making it your entire goal of getting "cuts." Just think about writing things,promoting things, recording things that make a difference in people's lives.
Get around other people, share what you do. Make a difference.

If you do that, you will be just fine.

MAB

MAB torture for you all!!!! LOL!

Since it is my anniversery, I am going to post one of my videos to make you all watch. Actually this pertains a bit to our discussions and shows you how I deal with the things we are talking about.

About 5 years ago, I had a regular student, Allen Shervelle, who came from North Carolina to work with me. He was a former drummer and his songs were TOO BUSY. Too many words. So in order to slow him down, we wrote a very soul R&B song, LESS IS MORE, which is literally about saying more with less words.

The song turned out really well and at the same time I was approached by a video crew interested in doing a music video to enter in some film festivals.
Around the same time I just happened to run into bassist BOB BABBITT, one of the original FUNK BROTHERS with MOTOWN. BOB was on everything STEVIE WONDER recorded, Marvin Gaye, Scorpio, Rubber Band Man, and thousands of hits. I asked him if he still recorded and he said yeah.

So on a Saturday morning,we got together at Jay's Place studio and spent a day recording and video taping the song. We also wanted to show our recording process. It starts with Jay and I charting the song for the musicians, them getting in, Bob coming in, and then the layers we do in the recording process.

The result was that the student learned a different way to write, the studio got business, I got business, the video won a "TELLY AWARD" in a film festival, and we recorded one of the last things Bob, and the drummer, Tommy Wells (from the 70's rock band Wet Willie) recorded before they both passed away.

That is how I try to pull these elements together. I don't care if it ever would get cut or not, I enjoy it and most people that hear it enjoy it. That is why I do this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weX_34MTLgQ

Marc, you could use a haircut. Too much blood in my AKAHOL level.

Could be a blues tune.

Absolutely not true. My humble opinion.

Like I said, I know jack about professional songwriting.

I have, however, worked in bars, I was a radio disc jockey and I owned a record store for years. There are lots and lots of songs that are hits because people like them. They find out about them before they get much airplay and start buying them. They buy them because friends tell them about them. They buy them because they heard them once at someone's house. They call up and start requesting them after they've heard them once.

On the other hand, there are plenty of people who have "an in" who can't get a hit; even with a previous track record. There are/were records with TREMENDOUS investment and push from a record company and the broadcast industry that never become hits. Because people didn't like them and didn't buy them.

"It was what I was trying to give in the analogy of the casino.

You could go to a casino, stand in the parking lot, see things going on, but you wouldn't make any money.

You could go into the lobby of the casino, see all the machines, the people, hear the noises,the lights,the smells,but you still wouldn't make any money.

You could go to a slot machine or Blackjack table and put some money down,and still more than likely lose,but it would be more of a chance than just standing in the lobby or WAY more than just standing in the parking lot."

if anybody takes away anything from this thread, take this:

DONT PLAY SLOTS! LOLLLLL

Dumbest way to waste your money, in a casino, and almost everybody does it because it doesnt require any knowledge or skill.

You ought to write a book or memoir with all of these stories Marc. They are really really interesting!

Hey Marc....How is Pop & Rock and Christian Contemporary different if at all?
Do you have any thoughts on that?