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#578782 - 01/24/08 06:29 PM
Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
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Kevin Emmrich
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 6249
Loc: Crozet, VA
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If a professional critique of your song cost $20-$50 and an excellent pro demo costs around $500-$700, shouldn't you always get at least one pro critique of your song from a well known song-writing consultant BEFORE you do a demo? (knowing in advance that it is still just one person's opinion)
Of course, if you just can't perform, maybe pay $75-100 for a vocal/guitar, get that critiqued and then if it is a "hit" -- then get that pro demo'd?
Just asking. I am just wondering how many seriously flawed songs get pro demos every year?
Kevin
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#578785 - 01/24/08 06:50 PM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: Kevin Emmrich]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 6477
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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I have never had any of my songs pro critiqued. To be honest we do not have much of that kind of service in the UK and the US market operates on slightly different criterias and culture. However I can see the sense in having a pro critique. It can save money. Making expensive demos of turkeys can be soul destroying and financially crippling. Having said that over the years I bet many great hit songs would have received bad critiques and vice versa. If it costs $50 for a critiques and folk say it costs about $75 for a demo surely it would be better to take a chance with the demo.
A song in the can is maybe better than a bit of paper saying how good or bad someone thinks it is.
"How many seriously flawed songs get pro demos every year?"
Well judging by the charts quite a few it would seem.
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#578811 - 01/24/08 08:05 PM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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Moker Jarrett
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 05/26/06
Posts: 4202
Loc: jacksonville, fl
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songU (memebrship $90 a quarter and has alot of pitch opps posted and online instructional courses)critiques are $10 and the coaches are hit or emmy nominated, etc. writers, you get it back in a few days. They will find pit falls in lyrical content, melody, tempo, too long intro, etc. NSAI members get some critiques free with membership-$150 per year-Dale and I have a songplugger we run through also now to prescreen worktapes before spending demo$- you'll have to figure out who they are for yourself-but there are a few folks on here who will tell it like it is and are usually dead on with their assessment of where your song is. Demos are the tool that can either level the playing field or waste a writers money-you are wise to be asking this question, good luck-let me know if I can ever help you...Moker
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#578817 - 01/24/08 08:17 PM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: Moker Jarrett]
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Joe Wrabek
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 11/28/03
Posts: 5884
Loc: Phoenix, OR USA
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I wouldn't do the pro critique myself, either, if it was going to cost money. I make sure every song I do gets both peer review by other writers whose opinions I trust, and has been performed before live audiences. If audiences keep requesting something, that's usually my signal that something's record material.
If I have money, I will sink it into production and promotion, not in having somebody tell me whether something's good or not. I will already know whether it's any good.
Joe
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#578820 - 01/24/08 08:23 PM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: Joe Wrabek]
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Kevin Emmrich
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 6249
Loc: Crozet, VA
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...both peer review by other writers whose opinions I trust, and has been performed before live audiences. If audiences keep requesting something, that's usually my signal that something's record material.
Testing it in front of an audience for awhile makes a lot of sense -- if you are a performing artist.
Kevin
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#578825 - 01/24/08 08:37 PM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: Kevin Emmrich]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 6477
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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Joe makes a good point. Most companies test market and research before launching a new product. It makes sense for songwriters to do the same regardless of whether they perform or not.
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#578837 - 01/24/08 09:05 PM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: Joe Wrabek]
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DukeWill
Serious Contributor
Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 1902
Loc: Louisiana, USA
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Here's why it's a good idea. If you don't pay for a pro critique, it would be wise to have somebody (or two) who has songwriting skills to at least critique the lyric. Because you may have flaws in the storyline.
I have gone back to a song a year or so after it was "finished" and thought to myself, heck, that doesn't make sense! The story has a flaw. Maybe I wrote a half verse about something and it could not logically be in that place in the song with the information that is revealed after it, etc.
Once you demo it, it's pretty much done unless you're Mr. Moneybags.
_________________________
Thanks, Bill (New Sig: What do I know? Good luck, songwriter!) mineral rights help
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#578846 - 01/24/08 09:26 PM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: DukeWill]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 6477
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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Bill yep that is true but I am sure as Moker pointed out earlier there are folk on this board who would probably point out the kind of flaws you mention.
Once a demo is done it is fairly easy to add a new vocal to the track. If I ever record any demo I always get both with and without vocal copies of the master. If you are really picky then get a separate copy of each recorded track and edit and remix to your hearts content.
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#578852 - 01/24/08 09:45 PM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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Louis
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 09/01/04
Posts: 5235
Loc: Home of the Crimson Tide
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Kevin, I'd get a pro review 1st, they would tend to care less about how their comments would leave you feeling. Your peers might tend to be a little kinder than you need.
_________________________
http://www.soundclick.com/louistwinn"If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away." Thoreau
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#578895 - 01/25/08 12:28 AM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: Louis]
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Joe Wrabek
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 11/28/03
Posts: 5884
Loc: Phoenix, OR USA
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Louis, I expect my peers to be nice. I do not expect them to be kind. I treat them the same way. The goal is mutual self-improvement, not adulation. I go to audiences for adulation when everything is perfect.
Joe
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#578954 - 01/25/08 06:13 AM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: Joe Wrabek]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 6477
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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Louis
"Your peers might tend to be a little kinder than you need."
Not in Scotland......
You obviously have not played Methil Miners Welfare club in Fife, Scotland or most other Scottish venues. Traditionally Scottish audiences can be the best in the world if they like you...the worst if they do not. They are also surprisingly knowlegeable.
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#578962 - 01/25/08 06:52 AM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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Louis
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 09/01/04
Posts: 5235
Loc: Home of the Crimson Tide
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When I say peers, I'm talking about other songwriters. It takes alot of time to really go over a song from top to bottom, word by word. something most folks don't have the time for.
_________________________
http://www.soundclick.com/louistwinn"If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away." Thoreau
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#578963 - 01/25/08 06:57 AM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: Louis]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 6477
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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Louis I was only kidding. I know what you mean. It makes sense.
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#578964 - 01/25/08 07:00 AM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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Louis
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 09/01/04
Posts: 5235
Loc: Home of the Crimson Tide
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Jim, so when the beer bottles start flying that means they don't like it, right? lol..
_________________________
http://www.soundclick.com/louistwinn"If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away." Thoreau
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#578968 - 01/25/08 07:14 AM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: Louis]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 6477
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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Oh no Louis they are civilized and have thought about that. They do not serve bottles only harmless plastic cups.
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#578974 - 01/25/08 07:47 AM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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Lisa Butler
Serious Contributor
Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 128
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
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LOL!!!
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#579031 - 01/25/08 11:47 AM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: Lisa Butler]
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Mike Dunbar
JPF Mentor
Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 7517
Loc: Nashville Tennessee
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I'd use the "iffin'" test:
Iffin' you don't know whether or not you need a pro critique...then you need one.
Of course, what does your team think? Do they think you'd benefit from one or two different pro critiques? You DO have a team, don't you? If not, then start there before you think about investing money in your art. Do a search on the mentor board about "team."
_________________________
Success is simply a matter of luck. Ask any failure. -Earl Wilson It's only music. -niteshift Only two things never change: change and whining about it. -Mike Dunbar Mike Dunbar Music
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#579036 - 01/25/08 11:54 AM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: Kevin Emmrich]
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Ande Rasmussen
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 02/11/01
Posts: 2163
Loc: Martindale, TX, USA
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absolutely
it could save you a lot of headache, heartache and wasted $$$
sometimes I spring for a cheap quick and dirty demo
when I'm writing with writers who can't make their own demos
as a step in between getting a full demo
drop by
http://www.songu.com/ifs
to get a trial membership
If a professional critique of your song cost $20-$50 and an excellent pro demo costs around $500-$700, shouldn't you always get at least one pro critique of your song from a well known song-writing consultant BEFORE you do a demo? (knowing in advance that it is still just one person's opinion)
Of course, if you just can't perform, maybe pay $75-100 for a vocal/guitar, get that critiqued and then if it is a "hit" -- then get that pro demo'd?
Just asking. I am just wondering how many seriously flawed songs get pro demos every year?
Kevin
_________________________
Ande Rasmus sen
Ande R a s m u s s e n@aol.com
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#579050 - 01/25/08 12:44 PM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: Ande Rasmussen]
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Kevin Emmrich
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 6249
Loc: Crozet, VA
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The question really wasn't for me at this point in time. It is just that over the past couple of months I have seen a few demos that sound great, but the song lyrics or the "story" were really weak. I realize that most demo shops will find it tough to turn down work, but sometimes a real critique might have saved these folks some bucks. Of course, If folks can afford it, then there is no big deal.
Thanks for all the comments, though (and I did sign up for a free course at SongU!!!).
Kevin
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#579052 - 01/25/08 12:47 PM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: Kevin Emmrich]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 6477
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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Kevin maybe these demos were not really for pitching more just for amusement.
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#579055 - 01/25/08 12:52 PM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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Kevin Emmrich
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 6249
Loc: Crozet, VA
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Big Jim: I thought about that possibility and that could be the case for some of them.
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#579061 - 01/25/08 01:14 PM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: Kevin Emmrich]
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Hummingbird
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 05/08/05
Posts: 2401
Loc: Victoria, B.C. Canada
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Being one of the enthusiatic beginning songwriters who thought her words & music were gold, I hooked up with a local 'producer' and managed to spend well over $3000 demoing 6 or 7 songs, all of which have gone nowhere. Do I wish I'd had the sense to get a pro critique on each of them before spending that money? Heck yeah. It would have cost $100 for John Braheny to listen to all of them. It would have been difficult to hear that my stuff wasn't up to stratch, but I could of rewritten or written new songs based on those critiques. Mind you, I had only begun to post on songwriting boards back then and I doubt I was ready to hear 'this needs work'.
I do use songwriting boards for critiques, but I also get pro critiques from SongU, Taxi, and through private means from songwriters or songwriting teachers who I know know what they are doing. Because I want to grow as a professional songwriter, because it's important to me that my music be commercially viable for film/tv.
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#579063 - 01/25/08 01:31 PM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: Hummingbird]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 6477
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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I wonder if Lennon & McCartney or Jagger & Richards or Dylan or countless others...... got their songs critiqued before going into a studio.
And if they had what kind of results they would have got. Needs more work...Does not rhyme....Does not make sense...poor vocabulary......needs stronger vocals etc etc etc. I am not saying that it is not important just that some folk place too much importance on it.
Re lyrics ......when all said and done most of the general public do not really listen to nor read and analyse lyrics anyway.
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#579068 - 01/25/08 01:49 PM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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Kevin Emmrich
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 6249
Loc: Crozet, VA
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Jim: I think you are talking about a totally different animal. Artists who performs their own songs has the "live" thing going so they get critiques all the time. But probably George Martin did a lot of commenting and editing on the beatles stuff and Glynn Johns for the Stones.
Folks who are writing to pitch are just playing a different game.
Kevin
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#579069 - 01/25/08 01:58 PM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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Dave Rice
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 02/20/05
Posts: 2266
Loc: Glen Rose, TX , USA
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Hi Guys:
I've enjoyed the responses to this thread. For my part, critiques are okay provided they keep things positive while trying to let you know your song would not play well in Antarctica... or anywhere else for that matter. Many of us forget that a songwriter or artist is "putting it out there" for all the world to see and hear while dreading the prospects of cruel negativity. It takes a bit of courage... or real stupidity to put a song up for review. We all have feelings.
The other side of the coin might be exactly what Jim Merrilees said in the previous post. Those with real confidence seldom give a rip about what critics say... as long as the song is gonna be played... and played... and played, regardless of what the public thinks. Others with exceptional talent don't seek critiques because they have "ears" and can recongize a great song when they hear one. (Sorry, Tiny Tim!) LOL!
Dave Rice
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#579107 - 01/25/08 04:41 PM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: Dave Rice]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 6477
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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Kevin I think you missed my point entirely. I will spell it out.
The people I mentioned were meant to be taken generally as any song writers who have produced fantastic hits in the days prior to pro critiques. What sort of critiques would have been given to these songs prior to them becoming huge hits. Based on the "rules and practices" of today I think a lot would have been rejected. In other words if they did not need or use them then why do we need to use them now.
Today all hits, if popular opinion is to be accepted, should be critiqued and tampered with, homogenised and pasteurised before they are fit for human consumption. They must all follow the rules and have been a product of the production line. Why?
Dave has a point. If the song is good enough then we do not need critiques. If we do want a critique because we are unsure if the song is good enough then critiquing will probably only confirm that it is not good enough.
We are in the age when you do not need a record deal to record and sell music. You do not need a producer and a label. Folk are now actually able to choose what to listen to rather than being told. We used to rely on charts or word of mouth for local artists to see what was out there. Now we can reach millions worldwide without any financial backing through the various download sites.
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#579108 - 01/25/08 04:47 PM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: Kevin Emmrich]
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TrumanCoyote
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 03/24/02
Posts: 2096
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I am just wondering how many seriously flawed songs get pro demos every year?
Kevin
Thousands and thousands and thousands and.........
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#579112 - 01/25/08 04:58 PM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: TrumanCoyote]
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Kevin Emmrich
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 6249
Loc: Crozet, VA
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Jim,
Before the Beatles, weren't writer/artists in the minority? Didn't Tin Pan Alley writers rule the airwaves? Didn't Motown use a lot if writers to pen songs for their singers. If so, I would assume the same rules/homogenization existing then with writers trying to break in. If writers weren't following the rules, their songs didn't get picked by producers/artists. Everyone has always wanted a #1 hit and the most successful route is to always copy the last #1.
Of course, as soon as rule breakers break through and become the next #1's -- well, we get new rules then.
I bet there were tons of critiques going on in Tin Pan Alley (but, of course, I don't really know).
Kevin
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#579131 - 01/25/08 05:48 PM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: Kevin Emmrich]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 6477
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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Yep you are right mediocrity rules. Why be original when you can just follow the same old recipe.
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#579139 - 01/25/08 06:11 PM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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Kevin Emmrich
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 6249
Loc: Crozet, VA
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That's a disappointing comment, Jim. It seems like you are saying that if you can't be the Beatles, then why bother. If someone writes great songs that move people, are exciting to listen to, but follow strictly the rules of a genre (country, pop, motown) -- is that person mediocre?
Here's the definition of mediocre:
**failing to meet a standard of quality, ability, or achievement
**moderate to inferior in quality;
**average: lacking exceptional quality or ability; poor to middling in quality
Mediocre has to do with quality/excellence. Just because it doesn't blaze new trails doesn't mean it is mediocre.
Kevin
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#579144 - 01/25/08 06:47 PM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: Kevin Emmrich]
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Moker Jarrett
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 05/26/06
Posts: 4202
Loc: jacksonville, fl
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The formulas which those who guard the gates to the airwaves accept are merely the vehicle in which we must deliver our message. They are not the message, but if we have something to say, that's the only ride to the dance for a writer who is new to the row. There is plenty of creative versatility within the confines of the structures which have gotten play.
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#579149 - 01/25/08 07:18 PM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: Kevin Emmrich]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 6477
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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Sorry Kevin again you have missed my point entirely. The Beatles were only mentioned as one teeny weeny part of my examples. I am saying COUNTLESS folk from all countries and genres wrote huge hit songs without having or needing them critiqued. A lot of these rulebreaking people were ORIGINAL and groundbreaking in their own unique styles of songs. Perhaps if the Beatles etc etc etc etc etc had went through the standard critique process then we would NEVER have seen this revolutionary music. Most of these songs would have been critiqued as not up to standard.
I know what mediocre means that is why I used it. If you can say that most of the stuff in the charts today is not mediocre then we have completely different tastes and standards. I personally think that most chart music with a few exceptions ticks all the boxes in your definitions. So in my opinion the charts are mediocre.
You have a valid point about rules being changed after rule breakers break through. However even when that happens it is too little too late. The pro critiquers can partly be blamed for perpetutating this mediocrity by wanting things to fit pre conceived ideas.
The music tastes in USA are very different to ours which could make us disagree. Country music tends to have a very low percentage following in my country as compared to rock, pop and other kinds. Nashville has very little influence if any.
We still have to get things past the dinosaurs like you and so our music is being stifled as well.
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#579152 - 01/25/08 07:29 PM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 6477
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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I have re read my post and have decided to add this to clarify my position. If you are entering a competition then you abide by the rules and the expected standards and criteria of that discipline. If you want to write ground breaking original songs the there are no rules to comply with and obeying rules will only stifle you.
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#579199 - 01/25/08 11:46 PM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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Hummingbird
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 05/08/05
Posts: 2401
Loc: Victoria, B.C. Canada
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Hmmmm.... if we all don't need critiques cause our stuff is good enough already, then shall we ask Brian to delete the mp3 & lyric sections? Come on. If you don't know how to write a decent song, then how will you learn without critiques? And while I totally value the feedback of less experienced writers (because they have a unique perspective that is less about rules & more about feeling), it is the feedback of my peers and those ahead of me on the path (more professional than me) that assists me greatly in improving my level of craft.
In the end, I think this question has as many different answers as the question "how do you write a song". Should I pay for a pro crit before shelling out big bucks for a demo? It depends. It's whatever works for you. I know what my answer is.
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#579201 - 01/25/08 11:54 PM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: Hummingbird]
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airun
Serious Contributor
Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 751
Loc: Canada
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we are listening, has a critiques service done by professionals
I payed 15 dollars for two of the, they're fast (2 weeks or so)
They helped me a lot
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#579242 - 01/26/08 07:01 AM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: airun]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 6477
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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Vikki perhaps I did not explain myself correctly. I was not referring to feedback I was referring to PAID pro critiques that everyone seems to think we all need, different ball game altogether. Everyone no matter how good they are at the craft needs feedback and pointers. There is a question as to the merits of these PRO opinions given that they are just opinions albeit from "experts". I have stated that many songs have made it without these opinions and many great songs have slipped through because of negative critiques. The merits of a pro critique CAN be in question.
Athletes and sporstmen can judge their performance and progress with a stopwatch or measuring tape or league table. Songwriters cannot, it is all down to taste and opinions. Personally I do not think that one persons opinion carries enough clout. I am not saying that it is a waste of time. I am saying that too much importance is put on these OPINIONS.
Just an opinion.
I was also stating that because nowadays songs have to tick all the boxes and meet the "regulations" we are starting to stagnate.
It is stifling originality and forcing talented songwriters to restrict their songs to pre conceived ideas and proven formats.
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#579260 - 01/26/08 09:17 AM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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Everett Adams
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 08/31/02
Posts: 4130
Loc: ,NL Canada
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I have to agree with Jim on this one. If you send a perfect song to a paid critic for a critique, he/she will have to suggest changes, be it huge or cosmetic, just so it appears they are earning their money. Unless someone is a born songwriter, their first 100 songs will only be learning exercises anyway, getting the feel of how to create a song out of nothing. There are basic rules as guidelines in songwriting as there is in all art, but these rules should not be set in stone so as to confine one's creativity. Critiques, will keep you within those confining guidelines, stifling your style to fit the norm, thus we get stagnation, everything sounding like cookie cutter songs. Let art breathe, let it grow, the listening public will tell you what it likes and dislikes.
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#579274 - 01/26/08 10:20 AM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: Everett Adams]
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Moker Jarrett
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 05/26/06
Posts: 4202
Loc: jacksonville, fl
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Just thought that I'd add this quote from publisher Penny Dionne to the discussion....her views on this support a combination of what we've been discussing...
I think that when you first write a song - it should be from that free creative place. Re-writing and editing should only come after you have experienced the joy of true creative freedom. Remember not all songs are meant to be commercial, and that's not an insult. Sometimes I will see a writer take a beautiful "heart-song" (something that has the most meaning to them) and try to turn it into something its not. The song gets lost, and the writer deprived himself/herself of just writing on because they were inspired to do so.
Songwriting workshops are effective in helping you learn about the craft and how to edit your songs. I think that every writer already has a style - they just need to unclutter it, and uncover it.
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#579287 - 01/26/08 11:22 AM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: Everett Adams]
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Hummingbird
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 05/08/05
Posts: 2401
Loc: Victoria, B.C. Canada
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I have to agree with Jim on this one. If you send a perfect song to a paid critic for a critique, he/she will have to suggest changes, be it huge or cosmetic, just so it appears they are earning their money. Unless someone is a born songwriter, their first 100 songs will only be learning exercises anyway, getting the feel of how to create a song out of nothing. There are basic rules as guidelines in songwriting as there is in all art, but these rules should not be set in stone so as to confine one's creativity. Critiques, will keep you within those confining guidelines, stifling your style to fit the norm, thus we get stagnation, everything sounding like cookie cutter songs. Let art breathe, let it grow, the listening public will tell you what it likes and dislikes.
I guess that depends on who you send it to. If you don't know and trust your 'critiquer', then why would you send them a song to critique. I only send songs to people I've taken songwriting workshops from or mentored with personally, who I trust to know what they're doing, or via organizations like SAC (songwriting association of Canada), SongU, Taxi... and if I belonged, NSIA.
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#579296 - 01/26/08 11:46 AM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: Hummingbird]
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Terry Moore
Serious Contributor
Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 664
Loc: United Kingdom
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It really all depends on the individual songwriter and how they feel about their material..if you are confident in what you have produced why do you need 2nd opinions?..isnt that why we have re-writes endlessly,re-recordings as well etc etc...after all that work why should you need the "nod" of approval from someone who has no input in your work..your listening public will soon let you know if you are a performing/singer/songwriter...if not well..all good songs will find their own legs and level..I once asked the advice of a well know singer/songwriter over here in Scotland...Dougie Maclean..on this very subject his reply was,and i quote" throw it up in the air...and see where it lands"
...so that is what i do....Terry...
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#579407 - 01/26/08 11:17 PM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: Terry Moore]
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McFredd-o
Casual Observer
Registered: 01/23/08
Posts: 35
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Living in Nashville and being a member of NSAI, I have seen many "Pro" critiques, and i have learned that it often doesn't matter whether or not someone critiques a song or not. If you are a serious songwriter you hopefully know what a good song sounds like. Hopefully you have heard enough good songs and heard enough bad songs to be able to distinguish between the two.
The purposes for getting a song critiqued and for getting a song demo-ed might differ depending on your goals as a songwriter. If you are trying to get cuts or trying to get a publishing deal, it might make sense to have as many "pro" critiques as possible, because you can get your songs heard by as many people as possible in the industry. NSAI offers many opportunities to get your songs critiqued for free. Sometimes the quality of a demo influences the critique, but to a large extent, a good song is a good song, and professionals in the industry can usually hear through a bad demo of a good song. I have talked to many here in Nashville who would rather hear a worktape version of a song rather than a fully produced, and more expensive demo.
If you are a serious musician, you hopefully have some kind of mentor in the music business who can listen to your songs, or at least people that you share songs with on occasion, ie family, friends, people at an open mic, whoever. If you haven't played the song for anyone, it doesn't make much sense to have it fully demo-ed.
I usually spend time with a song before taking it into the studio.. I live with it a while, play it at shows and for friends, and wait till it gets to its final form. I think if you are doing these things, a song can usually get ironed out. Sometimes after living with it for a while you might find out that you don't like it much after all.. in that case, don't demo it.
I think if you rush into a demo you'll probably end up wasting your money that you could have spent on something else like gear or perhaps some groceries.
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#579408 - 01/26/08 11:19 PM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: McFredd-o]
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McFredd-o
Casual Observer
Registered: 01/23/08
Posts: 35
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*also, one word of advice.. Don't spend $700 working on a demo if you don't have a way for someone important to hear your song. There aren't many people on music row who are willing to listen to an unsolicited song, so i'd say just keep writing. go to shows and meet people and share your music with them. good music will find good ears eventually, but you have to be patient.
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#579411 - 01/26/08 11:25 PM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: McFredd-o]
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airun
Serious Contributor
Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 751
Loc: Canada
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Thats all good advice for musicians mcfreddo, but some of us can't sing or play instruments, and just want to write lyrics
So if investing 30 dollars for a critique (before paying for a demo) will help us in some way then I say absolutely do it
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#579413 - 01/26/08 11:32 PM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: airun]
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McFredd-o
Casual Observer
Registered: 01/23/08
Posts: 35
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I see what you are saying, but if you are only a lyricist, you should work with another writer who plays an instrument and can help to write a great song with you. Great lyrics apart from music often read like bad poetry, and in the process of taking lyrics and putting them into a song, you'll probably end up somewhere different than where you started. I wouldn't spend $30 to have only lyrics critiqued. When i that had read the original post i assumed that the song in question at least had a rough demo (ie made on someone's computer).
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#579419 - 01/26/08 11:45 PM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: McFredd-o]
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Kathy Bampfield
Serious Contributor
Registered: 01/30/04
Posts: 1119
Loc: Norristown, PA, USA
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Big Jim,
I believe I have the answer to the critiques before the pro critiques came along...if you were a writer on the row in New York or when it became Nashville you wrote in pub. house you wrote then you went into your boss and he said, don't like it or yeah I do....so you changed it or ya kept it....I believe music as a business was written on a different platform then today....
eg:...the call would come out that so-n-so was looking for a "Heard it thru the Grapevine" kind of song. everyone up and down the row went a wrote their version of that song by the end of the week (if not by the end of the day) whoever had the best one got it recorded....works a little different today....although
I've seen the same thing happen just on a smaller scale.
Very interesting point how industries change!
Edited by Kathy Bampfield (01/26/08 11:47 PM)
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#579437 - 01/27/08 02:24 AM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: Kathy Bampfield]
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PeteG
Serious Contributor
Registered: 11/05/07
Posts: 831
Loc: Portland, Oregon
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Well If you read the history of the Beatles they did have critiques of their songs by the record companies before they recorded. Their first recording was "My Bonnie" - they didn't write that. They auditioned several times before they ever got to record their material.
I think at some point it's worthwhile for a songwriter to have a song or two demoed - I think it helps you find out where you are in the songwriting game - then there's no excuses. And though many say they can hear through a bad demo of a good song - I believe you are ahead to have a good demo - often if a song is picked up the recording is going to sound like the demo. that's what a good Demo studio does they "cast" the recording to fit a certain 'artist-style' that is current. This pretty much only applies to country and some pop styles. The outside song writer is used less and less in general.
Vanity presses turn out a lot of books, it's the same in music. The beginning writer always thinks he's written a masterpiece. And it takes a while to be able have your work critiqued in a useful way. Some people are good at critiquing and others are not - and you need to find some one who can nurture your creativity. Unfortunately it's becoming more and more expensive to get any help - it's a business. If you can get a pro review for $20 - before you spend $500 that seems smart (you should find out what artist and style they might recommend)- and I've heard some pretty good demos that were mail ins that were good and were only $250-$300.
Pete
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#579446 - 01/27/08 07:08 AM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: Kevin Emmrich]
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Mike Caro Substudio
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 6285
Loc: NY
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It's very simple....
You may never ever ever ever get a hit song even if you actually write one.
So you record the ones you believe in and the ones that others around you believe in
If you don't record them then you will certainly never ever ever have a hit song you'll never have any of your songs to shop... to listen to... grow from.....share with people..... to enjoy and find the sensation,peace and satisfaction it it can bring you.
Get them down on tape  the best you can with what you can afford.
We have lots of discussions here about demo's and costs and paying for critiques and Taxi etc.... Good stuff but honestly the answers simple
You either put everything you got into your music or you don't
Make mistakes and learn from them.
I spent so much money and time recording that I taught myself how to do it professionally and spent a fortune on equipment in my life partly in effort to save money on recording. No substitutes no excuses no pro critiques accept for rejections from major labels and publishing companies. On the job training!
Of course I wish I had started out older and better and good at everything first but thats a rare case. You have to throw yourself into it regardless of anything, don't wait for no one or anything. You either put ALL you have into your music or you don't, Try "don't" and see how far you get or how good you get?
I have questioned many things about myself & this business of music but I or NO one else has ever questioned my dedication, determination, and complete sacrifice
and complete commitment to my music.
That's the part you have to live with... Did I do enough? Work hard enough, sacrifice enough. When all is said and done I can answer that YES, as a matter of fact my hard work answers it to EVERYONE in the business or not for me.
Also think about it. You don't wanna spend money on a demo that you will have in your hands at worst...to pass along to those who matter in your life. Also for those who can maybe help in meeting others who can help you get closer to your goals BUT you wanna spend even more money getting reviews??? Forget that for now.
You'll know when your ready!
Now go fill your heart & make your music best you can!
Edited by Mike Caro Substudio (01/27/08 07:21 AM)
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#579456 - 01/27/08 07:59 AM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: Kevin Emmrich]
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Kevin Emmrich
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 6249
Loc: Crozet, VA
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Thanks for all the comments everybody.
I think there are two completely different situations that I want to try and nail down (there are other situations, of course).
1.) If you are a songwriter/artist/performer then you have the audience reaction to gauge everything on. If everyone loves your stuff, crowds request certain songs, your CD's sell at your shows -- well you have the feedback you need.
(Part B to 1: If you have a great song and you are not getting the reaction you want -- maybe a pro review/mentor help makes sense)
2.) You are NOT a performer and you are trying to get cuts from other artists. In this situation, you know a pro-demo is pretty much a requirement. And probably if you are pitching to Nashville, then you might just need a Nashville demo. In this situation, you are going to need a review by somebody other than your friends and family. In this case, a review makes sense before you spend $350 - $750 on a pro demo.
I've heard people mention Taxi, SongU and others as potential reviewers. It seems to me that I would want to know the actual person(s) doing the reviewing and try to make a long term relationship out of it.
Although, I started this thread because of pro demos I have seen here that had some potential "weaknesses" in the lyrics, story, flow, etc. -- I am looking at the song by Brenda, Barry and myself (Walking Never Bothered Me) as maybe one that could get pitched. Therefore I think the steps that make sense (if we really believe in the song's potential) would be:
-- Have me do the best possible home demo that I can
-- Get 1 - 2 pro reviews of folks that I might want to look at as long-term mentors
-- Get that Nashville demo done
-- Figure out how to pitch it.
If we pick a Nashville critiquer and get a Nashville demo we might get some leads for inside plugging (or maybe not).
Any of this make sense?
Kevin
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#579465 - 01/27/08 08:42 AM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: Kevin Emmrich]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 6477
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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Kevin It all makes sense. However "Figure out how and where to pitch it" should come first perhaps even before writing the song. That can have a direct bearing on what type of song you write and the quality demo you need to produce. It can also change how you approach the other points. You have to identify the marketplace and find a way in first then you can write songs and tailor the product to suit that market. Different markets have different rules. If somebody wants a guitar vocals song for a particular artist no point in sending a whole orchestra version.
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#582558 - 02/04/08 04:35 PM
Re: Before a PRO Demo, shouldn't you pay for 1 or 2 pro crtiques?
[Re: Kevin Emmrich]
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billrocker
Serious Contributor
Registered: 10/04/07
Posts: 281
Loc: Nashville TN
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I think people put WAY TOO MUCH IMPORTANCE on getting a "Pro Critique" of their song or songs. I think quantity of critiques is every bit as, if not more, important than paying for 1 'pro' with the hopes of getting THE critique you can hang your hat on. The fact is, anyone you ask will say something slightly different, pro or not, and whether you pay money or ask someone for free, all you're getting is an opinion.
If you ask 20 experienced writers about your song (here, or in your community) and you start hearing repeats on certain issues like ('your second verse needs to go somewhere new', or 'you use too many cliches', or, 'who you're talking about is vague, etc.), those are the things I'd hang my hat on. You'll hear stray things that don't make sense, you'll hear things that give you ideas, you'll hear things that make you angry, you'll get a lot of affirmation, etc. etc., But at the end of the day, it's the reapeat themes that are worthy of note.
I hear so many people say, "so and so told me the 2nd line of the chorus isn't strong enough" and they'll literally obsess about that because so and so was a somebody and they gave them money to tell them that. So and so may be right, but if you ask enough writers you already know, and 2 or 3 of them suggest that the 2nd line of the chorus could be better, that may be all you need to consider taking another look at that line....and you won't have spent money.
The info we as writers need to improve our craft is out there, and it's free. That's why boards like this are great, thats why I ask for lots of opinions, and that's why I've never paid for a critique. That's also why I never charge for critiques.
I believe people think if they pay for a critique it will be worth more. I also believe there are lots of people who are willing to take your money if you'd like to believe that. I believe there are people who are REALLY hoping someone can show them a shortcut...someone in the know, perhaps an insider who can get them a break...and that they're willing to pay money toward that end. But no opinion purchased will ever be valued higher than that of which is accomplished through hard work and dedication toward improving one's craft.
I think TAXI and services like them can be beneficial, but I also believe you can find out the same thing you'll hear from them from someone in your very own songwriting community...but only if you are more relentless in your persuit to improve your craft than you are to hear your one of your songs on the radio.
If your heart is in writing...more so than in finding fame and glory....you'll hear all that you need to hear about your songs...and you'll hear it when you need to hear it. I really truly believe that.
Save your money for the demo...and when you do that, I suggest starting with a guitar/vocal demo. Put your money into the picker and the singer. Pick a guitarist and singer who are both seasoned veteran, absolute, no holds barred, complete and total professionals who've done literally hundreds of demos.
Make sure you key the tune WITH THAT SINGER before you record the tracks. Keying a song improperly, even if only off by a half-step, can change everything.
There are sample disks available of different demo singers who are the 'go to' singers in Nashville...good idea to listen to different demo singers and pick the one who you hear singing your song. Matching singer and song is an under appreciated component that has everything to do with how your song turns out in demo form.
br
http://www.writethismusic.com
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