Who's Online Now
10 members (Fdemetrio, VNORTH2, Gary E. Andrews, Perry Neal Crawford, couchgrouch, Sunset Poet, Guy E. Trepanier, bennash, Bill Draper, David Gill), 4,088 guests, and 270 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Register Today!
Welcome to the Just Plain Folks forums! You are currently viewing our forums as a Guest which gives you limited access to most of our discussions and to other features.

By joining our free community you will have access to post and respond to topics, communicate privately with our users (PM), respond to polls, upload content, and access many other features. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free; so please join our community today!
ShoutChat
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. Don't flame, hate, spam.
What's Going On
Does Billy Joel belong in top 10?
by Fdemetrio - 03/28/24 11:10 PM
It Is Done
by Sunset Poet - 03/28/24 07:44 PM
Music Industry Summit, Athens Ohio
by Gary E. Andrews - 03/28/24 06:14 PM
Can you save me from me
by VNORTH2 - 03/28/24 03:11 PM
As human as yo
by ckiphen - 03/28/24 09:55 AM
Fox News Reports Stunning Archeological Discovery.
by couchgrouch - 03/27/24 08:02 PM
Wasting My Time
by David Gill - 03/27/24 07:42 AM
Song available
by JAPOV - 03/26/24 03:38 PM
YELLIN AT CLOUDS
by David Gill - 03/26/24 03:20 PM
"Reliving" the great Lou Rawls!
by Brian Austin Whitney - 03/26/24 01:49 PM
::: The Best In My Life :::
by Bill Draper - 03/26/24 01:32 PM
The show must go on
by ckiphen - 03/26/24 09:06 AM
NYC Motel 1972
by rpirone - 03/26/24 12:43 AM
usic Industry Summitt
by Gary E. Andrews - 03/25/24 11:32 PM
The Rant Arena
by JAPOV - 03/25/24 07:39 PM
Song available
by Raymond Byabazaire - 03/25/24 11:55 AM
Song available
by Raymond Byabazaire - 03/25/24 11:55 AM
Lancaster Festival, Lancaster, Ohio
by Gary E. Andrews - 03/25/24 10:51 AM
Wasting my time
by Rob B. - 03/25/24 03:45 AM
Tom Waits.. What's he building
by Fdemetrio - 03/25/24 12:09 AM
Rick Beato, bad lyrics
by Fdemetrio - 03/24/24 11:23 PM
Inspirational Videos Post Them Here
by Sunset Poet - 03/24/24 11:27 AM
Used to take a Genius to Mix
by Fdemetrio - 03/23/24 11:00 AM
She’s missing but she ain’t missing him
by ckiphen - 03/23/24 08:44 AM
"Broken Places"
by Gary E. Andrews - 03/22/24 07:45 PM
All You Are Is A Lie
by Sunset Poet - 03/22/24 06:55 PM
Pour Choices
by Gavin Sinclair - 03/22/24 05:29 PM
Billy's 30 year overdue song.
by Fdemetrio - 03/22/24 01:30 PM
Make my dreams come true
by ckiphen - 03/22/24 10:51 AM
Top Posters
Calvin 19,857
Travis david 12,264
Kevin Emmrich 10,941
Jean Bullock 10,330
Kaley Willow 10,240
Two Singers 9,649
Joice Marie 9,186
Mackie H. 9,003
glynda 8,683
Mike Dunbar 8,574
Tricia Baker 8,318
couchgrouch 8,160
Colin Ward 7,911
Corey 7,357
Vicarn 6,916
Mark Kaufman 6,589
ben willis 6,114
Lynn Orloff 5,788
Louis 5,725
Linda Sings 5,608
KimberlyinNC 5,210
Fdemetrio 4,990
Neil Cotton 4,909
Derek Hines 4,893
DonnaMarilyn 4,670
Blake Hill 4,528
Bob Cushing 4,389
Roy Cooper 4,271
Bill Osofsky 4,199
Tom Shea 4,195
Cindy Miller 4,178
TamsNumber4 4,171
MFB III 4,143
Sunset Poet 4,126
nightengale 4,096
E Swartz 3,985
JAPOV 3,973
beechnut79 3,878
Caroline 3,865
Kolstad 3,845
Dan Sullivan 3,710
Dottie 3,427
joewatt 3,411
Bill Cooper 3,279
John Hoffman 3,199
Skip Johnson 3,027
Pam Hurley 3,007
Terry G 3,005
Nigel Quin 2,891
PopTodd 2,890
Harriet Ames 2,870
MidniteBob 2,761
Nelson 2,616
Tom Tracy 2,558
Jerry Jakala 2,524
Al Alvarez 2,499
Eric Thome 2,448
Hummingbird 2,401
Stan Loh 2,263
Sam Wilson 2,246
Wendy D 2,235
Judy Hollier 2,232
Erica Ellis 2,202
maccharles 2,134
TrumanCoyote 2,096
Marty Helly 2,041
DukeWill 2,002
floyd jane 1,985
Clint Anglin 1,904
cindyrella 1,888
David Wright 1,866
Clairejeanne 1,851
Cindy LaRosa 1,824
Ronald Boyt 1,675
Iggy 1,652
Noel Downs 1,633
Rick Heenan 1,608
Cal 1,574
GocartMoz 1,559
Jack Swain 1,554
Pete Larsen 1,537
Ann Tygart 1,529
Tom Breshers 1,487
RogerS 1,481
Tom Franz 1,473
Chuck Crowe 1,441
Ralph Blight 1,440
Rick Norton 1,429
Kenneth Cade 1,429
bholt 1,411
Letha Allen 1,409
in2piano 1,404
Stan Simons 1,402
Deej56 1,385
mattbanx 1,384
Jen Shaner 1,373
Charlie Wong 1,347
KevinP 1,324
Vondelle 1,316
Tom W. 1,313
Jan Petter 1,301
scottandrew 1,294
lane1777 1,280
Gerry 1,280
DakLander 1,265
IronKnee 1,262
PeteG 1,242
Ian Ferrin 1,235
Glen King 1,214
VNORTH2 1,212
IdeaGuy 1,209
AaronAuthier 1,177
summeoyo 1,174
Diane Ewing 1,162
ckiphen 1,120
joro 1,082
BobbyJoe 1,075
S.DEE 1,040
yann 1,037
9ne 1,035
David Gill 1,032
Tony A 1,016
argo 986
peaden 984
90 dB 964
Wolvman 960
Jak Kelly 912
krtinberg 890
Drifter 886
Petra 883
RJC 845
Brenda152 840
Nadia 829
ant 798
Juan 797
TKO 784
Dayson 781
frahmes 781
bennash 763
teletwang 762
Andy K 750
Andy Kemp 749
tbryson 737
Jackie444 731
Irwin 720
3daveyO3 704
Dixie 701
Joy Boy 695
Pat Hardy 692
Knute 686
Lee Arten 678
Moosesong 668
Katziis 652
R.T.MOORE 638
quality 637
CG King 622
douglas 621
R&M 614
Mel 614
NaomiSue 601
Shandy 590
Ria 587
TAMERA64 583
qbaum 570
nitepiano 566
pRISCILLA 556
Tink2 553
musica 539
deanbell 528
RobertK 527
BonzaiWag 523
Roderic 522
BB Wilbur 513
goodfolks 499
Zeek 487
Stu 486
Steve P. 481
KathyW 462
allenb 459
MaxG 458
Philjo 454
fanito 448
trush48 448
dmk 442
Rob L 439
arealrush 437
DGR 436
avweek 435
Stephen D 433
Emmy 431
marquez 422
kit 419
Softkrome 417
kyrksongs 415
RRon 408
Laura G. 407
VNORTH 407
Debra 407
eb 406
cuebald 399
EdPerrone 399
Dannyk1 395
Hobart 395
Davyboy49 393
Smile 389
GJShades 387
Alek 386
Ezt 384
tone 380
Marla 380
Ann_F 379
iggyiggy 378
coalminer 377
java 374
ddreuter 371
spidey 371
sweetsong 370
danny 367
Rob B. 364
Jim Ryan 360
papaG 353
Z - man 350
JamesDF5 348
John K 348
Jaden 344
TheBaz 340
Steggy 339
leif 339
tonedeaf 336
rickwork 334
Eddie Ray 332
Johnboy 328
Bob Lever 328
Helicon1 327
lucian 326
Muskie 321
kc 319
Z. Mulls 318
ptondreau 313
ONOFFON 312
Chris B. 310
trush 304
ed323 297
Ellen M 294
markus-ky 293
lizzorn 291
nicnac49 290
Char 286
ktunes 285
Top Likes Received
JAPOV 86
VNORTH2 45
bennash 38
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
#1081730 05/01/15 10:18 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,044
Likes: 16
Top 40 Poster
OP Offline
Top 40 Poster
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,044
Likes: 16
Usually if someone wants to record your song, they will pay you mechanical royalties based on how many CDs they plan to make, but some people don't want to release any CDs but want to put up songs on CD Baby, ITunes, etc. for downloads. How do you license someone for that?

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,911
Likes: 1
Top 30 Poster
Offline
Top 30 Poster
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,911
Likes: 1
I would ask them to pay for a certain number of downloads that they would anticipate (100?), and then rely on them to buy more when and if the sales exceed the number they paid for.


Colin

I try to critique as if you mean business.....

http://colinwardmusic.com/

http://rosewoodcreekband.com/


Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,426
Likes: 16
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,426
Likes: 16
Everett,

I will go back to what someone said in 1998 to a pretty high level panel discussion in Nashville. "In the future, songwriters are going to have to get used to doing without royalties, because they are not going to be there."

That is now happening with lisences. They are pretty much gone because no one does high run CD's anymore. They order 100 at a time, and get them fairly quickly if they need more. But most CD's are now givaways, to advertise for gigs. And one of the reasons they are less likely to record outside material. When it is going to cost you money with little or no chance or any return, you are going to record your own.

That is what you have been seeing in different ways. The singer who no longer wants to record your songs, the problems with lisencing,etc. The outside song is a thing of the past. Gonna have to change the dynamic of how you approach it. Cause in the eyes of most artists, that has already changed.

MAB

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
R
Top 30 Poster
Offline
Top 30 Poster
R
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
Well,
The situation hasn't come up but if it does I would have them pay either the statutory rate or some other agreed rate assuming I haven't assigned the copyright for the number of copies they are going to have made. If they want to put it on youtube I may grant them a free license for that useage. After all the royalties from youtube would be minuscule but would give you some extra publicity and perhaps more sales for the release. I also may require a minimum payment, say for 500 copies.


Ray E. Strode
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,845
K
Top 100 Poster
Offline
Top 100 Poster
K
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,845
It's the same thing, but the concept you'd want to be researching is "streaming mechanicals". See here for a start http://www.americansongwriter.com/2014/06/songwriter-u-copyrights-licensing-royalties-fact-sheet/

A lot of people are now starting to use sc aggregators, because the current laws are from a time before streaming services. So it has become a grey area, but aggregators like Tunecore and many others are now colleting these monies.

You may also want to be signing up for SoundExchange (they are also an "aggregator"). Contrary to what most people think, they are also collecting for songwriters.

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,044
Likes: 16
Top 40 Poster
OP Offline
Top 40 Poster
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,044
Likes: 16
I thought SoundExchange collected for labels and artist only, where PROs collect for writers and publishers.

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,044
Likes: 16
Top 40 Poster
OP Offline
Top 40 Poster
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,044
Likes: 16
Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
Everett,

I will go back to what someone said in 1998 to a pretty high level panel discussion in Nashville. "In the future, songwriters are going to have to get used to doing without royalties, because they are not going to be there."

That is now happening with lisences. They are pretty much gone because no one does high run CD's anymore. They order 100 at a time, and get them fairly quickly if they need more. But most CD's are now givaways, to advertise for gigs. And one of the reasons they are less likely to record outside material. When it is going to cost you money with little or no chance or any return, you are going to record your own.

That is what you have been seeing in different ways. The singer who no longer wants to record your songs, the problems with lisencing,etc. The outside song is a thing of the past. Gonna have to change the dynamic of how you approach it. Cause in the eyes of most artists, that has already changed.

MAB


If this is the way it is going than the industry will slowly die.
It has been my experience that rarely does the best singer, the best musician, the best writer, come all rolled up in one person, one unit, one package. It happens once in a while but not often. Usually the great musicians can't write or sing well, the best singers can't write or play well, and the best writers can't sing or play well, so if singer/songwriters can manage to do it all, even if they are only fair and not great, they will rule the roost. The biggest losers in all of this will be the listening audience, but they may not even notice because they are being slowly down graded to accept worst and worst every day.

Maybe what you will see are bands formed around writers, after all the songs are the most important. Great singers will hire great musicians and look for writers to write for them. Wait! Wasn't that what Nashville did in the past, only then the major labels did the organizing and controlling. Maybe what goes around comes around, lets hope so for the sake of music lovers.

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,831
Top 30 Poster
Offline
Top 30 Poster
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,831
Hi Marc:

You (the messenger) have arrived with the bad news and I thank you for "telling it the way it is!" Unfortunately, there appears to be "no joy in Mudville" for the plain, ordinary songwriter. You know, the one who is a lyricist, a melody creator/composer... or the one who has no desire to perform.

It appears we are "dinosaurs" and should begin preparing for our final demise. I don't like the way it is... I don't care for where it seems to be headed and I have no way of changing things.

That leaves only the possibility of enjoying what I do. With all the other catastrophes going on in our world today, I suppose creating songs will have to be enough. I've known for quite some time "there is no POT of GOLD at the end of the Rainbow."

Thanks for telling us what we refuse to heed... but really needed to know.

Have a great weekend, you big lug.

----Dave

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,426
Likes: 16
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,426
Likes: 16
Everett,

First if all, the music business never does and will never die. Too many people do it and always will. Making money at it is another thing altogether but like every business there will be people at the top of the pyramid, investment people and a very gullible public that buys into it.There is always someone that makes money, it is just always a very small few.
The same as people always keep waiting for the "big Labels to die" the CD's to die, Terrestrial radio to die", I wouldn't look for it, because it's never going to happen. Most people can have that "Waiting for ..... to die..." On our tombstones.

What the music industry does is ADAPT. When money dissapeared from songs themselves, they adapted to ARTIST BRANDING and MARKETING. And again, this is NOTHING NEW. The only thing new is that there are more people than ever in the business. Everyone is PART of the business now. Everyone that plays an instrument, writes and records songs, performs on some show, puts camera phone videos on the Internet, uploads songs, goes to shows, have clubs, etc. Those are ALL people involved in it. it is just mostly amateurs.

The industry started seeing this decades ago and shifted how they did business, who they signed, how they developed them. If the artist was going to be primarily responsible for the delivery of songs, then they would be involved from the beginning. The hit writers, who had the current hits, became producers. They also wrote the songs AROUND those artists. They developed very close tight writers circles and controlled those.

The same approach that is in football, baseball, hockey, soccer or any sports team was applied to artists and writers. They spent a number of years apprenticing in their business, worked their way up, had a bit of a run, built upon that, then replaced them with someone new who had been in the pipeline. And they were always developing prospects. For every writer, artist, etc. you see out there, there are hundreds and thousands in the pipelines. Ever heard of AMERICAN and CANADIAN IDOL, THE VOICE, BRITIAN'S GOT TALENT? There is no end to those. They are developed in front of the public, get to a certain point and then the public moves on to something else.

The differences are now how much money you have to or can spend, how you orgainize what you do, and how successful you are at managing your overall career.

In the case of 'liscencing fees" for the average outside writer, if you are a new and independent artist, only really interested in your own product to begin with, adding hundreds and thousands of dollars to a project, that you have to pay for liscencing fee, not only defeats your purpose, it makes no financial sense. So those are going away.

The reason there are no more 1000 CD run (because that is what you pay liscencing fees for) is that most CDs are becoming giveaways (just like most online downloading) to bring attention to the artist live shows. They are not making money on that. In fact, recorded sales of music make up about 7% of an artist's income. So people are doing shorter runs, and actually releasing MORE product.

Many labels have gone to six packs or EP's, and doing two releases a year on their big artists. On smaller one's there are doing single song releases. just like the old 45's of yesteryear.

You see, most people forget that not every artist throughout history didn't release albums with 10 or 12 songs on them. They released singles with an "A" side, and "B" side. There's just a mistaken opinion of people because there are SO many songs and it is so easy to record and produce them.

The only difference now is that just like in the rock world starting 40 years ago, the artists are now involved in those songs from the get go. After the Beatles, all rock and pop music became self contained. Now every type of music mostly is.

MAB

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,426
Likes: 16
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,426
Likes: 16
Dave,

I have tried to say it in every way I can. The writer is NOT dead. They just have to adapt the way they are doing things. They are having to move into ARTIST DEVELOPMENT, not just picking songs. Writers now have to think about VIDEO, helping someone else besides themselves, and helping push someone else along, instead of just the song. Each song has to become a PROJECT.

Writers are stilll getting cuts, but they are at different levels and done in a different way. If you look at most every major artist and many independent and smaller artists, you will find a connection to the writers, producers, etc. from many years back. They are involved in many ways outside of just writing the song.

That is what has changed. It is no longer JUST THE SONG. The song is still an intregal part of it, but only one part. The song can't stand on it's own without an artist. An artist can't stand on their own without production, promotion, development.

There is just a lot more involved now. NSAI's saying "It all begins with a song" is still correct. But there are so many other things that are involved now, it only "begins" with a song. From there there is a LOT of other things involved. And again there always has been. The Beatles didn't develop themselves. They had Brian Epstein, pushing them, booking them, publicising them.

Now, we are all mini Brian Epsteins.

Any of you that work for other companies probably are finding the same thing. Very few people now JUST do one thing at a company. you find yourself involved in multiple sides of projects, doing work that others might or should do but because of tighter budgets leaner companies, you find yourself doing more work, and not always for more money. You end up wearing a lot of hats.

That is all this is. Wearing more hats. Might not be more money involved, but that is the requirement.
MAB

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
R
Top 30 Poster
Offline
Top 30 Poster
R
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
It is pretty well known that anyone that is going to record a song of yours may want a piece of the action. I once sent 3 songs to a Bluegrass band. They liked all of my songs but wanted me to pay for part of the recordings. So much for that. As a former poster used to say, they pay me, I don't pay them.

Granting a reduction in the licensing fee, assuming it isn't everything is always an option. Granting a part of the copyright is something else. And granting Publishing is something else. Just be forwarned, if you have a song someone wants, don't give it away just to get it recorded.


Ray E. Strode
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,426
Likes: 16
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,426
Likes: 16
Let me see if I can present this from another perspective. I'll give you a recent example with myself and see if this makes sense. I have told this story on various forums and if I have done it here, forgive me, I lose track. But it has relevance to this subject.If you've heard it before, scroll on.

Artists are now much nmore interested in what THEY want to say than they are in having someone else say something FOR them, which is what song pitches are about. Yes, as Everett has noted, they might not BE the whole package, but due to ego, social media, sycophants, and the ease or promoting oneself, they WILL THINK they are the whole package. It is not until someone shows them an alternative way, that they look at a larger picture. Usually by that time, however, they have gone broke, fallen in love, gotten pregnant, gone to college, started other careers, etc. Most people are in and out of this pretty quickly. Either by their own design or life forces them to grow up and move on.

I work with a variety of artists and writers, all ages, all styles, all sides of the spectrum.

One is a 17 year old female artist from my home town of Birmingham Alabama. She is just starting on her career, only been performing for two years. She has a lot of talent, very good voice, very attractive, full of life, and very focused.

One of the hard part of artists is getting them AWAY from just being like TAYLOR SWIFT or whoever the fad of the week is. Trying to help them find themselves is the key.

We had written several songs together and I was trying hard to find her own voice. Subject matter is really tricky. How do you say something different that everyone has heard a million times before? So I get them to tell stories about what goes on in their life.

Her's was interesting. Every day on her way to school (she is in the 10th grade in High school) she passes a cematary. She would see a white truck and an older man out in the graveyard. She thought he might be the caretaker, taking care of the grounds.

She wanted to write something about that. So using my experience with people, an uncle whose wife died a few years back,and other things I have gone through, we constructed a story about that man. We made him at the Cemetary because his wife was buried there. He visited there every day. We made up a story about their lives and put the chorus into addresses, from the first little apartment, to a larger house where they raised their kids, to the cemetary which was the FINAL ADDRESS. (That is the title.)
I even included a line in the bridge, "You'd be amazed at how 45 years fly by."

The song turned out really well, she was very excited because it was HER story, in her voice, and fit what she needed in her catalogue.

A few days later they ended up meeting the man. It turned out the story was almost EXACTLY like his life. his wife was buried there and he visited every day.They did start out in a small apartment and went through their live together. We were almost dead on every detail, execpt one. They had not been married 45 years. They had been married FORTY SIX YEARS.

She ended up playing it for him, it has become her favorite song, is the title of her CD and now we recorded it in Nashville and she is out performing it and getting radio airplay.

That is what I am talking about. Using my experience and abilities to bring something to life that SHE feels a connection to.Now other writers, even great writers might bring songs just like that one to her. But that one is HER song. Her experiences. And she loves to sing the song. It is part of her life. And part of that old man's. Everyone she plays it for has the same reaction and she is getting a lot of attention.

In my experience, this is what we have to do now. We have to become PART of these artists' lives. It is up to us to help them bring their vision to life. It is hard to do, many are too full of themselves, but that is the challenge.

The pure songwriter is NOT dead. But it has to adapt to working with artists in conjunction with them from the beginning. It is the challenge, not only to WRITE A SONG, but to WRITE A SONG THAT IS PART OF THEIR LIVES.

That's the current deal. And I don't see it ever going back.
MAB

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
B
Top 100 Poster
Offline
Top 100 Poster
B
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
SO....IF you were King of The Songwriters of America WHAT YOU DO about this ridiculous, sick situation? Something is wrong with this picture. Sounds like we are living in some alternate universe where songwriters are just supposed to either give away their songs or sing them. I maintain that many singers can write their own songs and SOME are good but most don't. SO I guess that the singers have this new gimmick where they sit in a room with two good songwriters, add a word or two and becomes one of the Songwriters....is that how we can make some money? I know I complain a lot but that may be reality but TO ME seems unconscionable. Sorry for the rant but something Stinks to High Hell here....AM I THE ONLY ONE who thinks this. You may say that that's the way it is and we need to deal with it BUT WE MUST HAVE SOME Recourse.....UGH......

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
B
Top 100 Poster
Offline
Top 100 Poster
B
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
RIGHT ON....It's the Haves Verses the Have Not's. We need to go on STRIKE....LOL
I Know, I know that is stupid but in Life in General THE MAN will take and take and take and UNLESS the workers fight back it will never stop. It's just Greed and Human Nature....Very Upsetting to ME.....But so is almost everything else I see these days.

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
B
Top 100 Poster
Offline
Top 100 Poster
B
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
Just shows how Fantastic Harry Chapin or Cat Stevens or Billy Joel was IN THEIR DAY by being SO Able in all the areas.....It's a special talent and most don't have it. Marc as usual is right on and IT IS WHAT IT IS....and that's probably a GREAT TITLE. Sounds like you do a great job Marc...KUDOS and Good Luck! I write songs like the one you describe but the only Record Company I'm going to be on is Social Security Records and a Tour sponsored by a Wheel Chair Company....lol Got to Laugh....lol

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,426
Likes: 16
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,426
Likes: 16
Barry,

WE are all going through that. I'm writing at this moment with a 23 year old female artists, but we are writing about her 102 year old GREAT GRANDMOTHER, who just passed away. She was still dancing, partying, and DRINKING BEER at her 100th birthday party. It is a real hoot.

THAT is what I care about. Helping someone else get to their dreams, emotions and their experiences. I really don't care about the industry. If I do what I do well, they rise within the industry.

If you hear the greats in this business, people like Tom Douglas and Alan Rhody, who wrote something like HOUSE THAT BUILT ME, you find these exact types of stories. They just connected with Miranda Lambert, who lived the exact same thing.

That is my challenge. If I was "SONGWRITER OF THE WORLD' that is what I would try to get everyone to do and experience. I would never get too caught up in the industry outside of knowing what is going on, realaizing trends, knowing what to stay away from. But going for REAL LIFE for me, and finding a different way to present it is everything for me. It's all in the challenge for me.

It's not the destination, it's the road that gets you there.
Yeah. I wrote that too. LOL!
And yes, "It is what it is."
Wrote that one too.
Can't help myself.

MAB

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,177
A
Top 500 Poster
Offline
Top 500 Poster
A
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,177
I can see what Evertt means and I have an example

Evanescence

Their first CD was AMAZING.

When their two main writers left the band after the debut CD (Ben Moody and Dave Hodges) it left an amateur songwriter Amy Lee to write most of the songs and they basically fell off the map after that. After that Moody and Hodges began writing with other artists including country. I mean their 2nd album was so bad.
It was a huge fall from the first.

But music will never die and I have no probs with artists writing their own songs. I prefer it that way anyway.

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
R
Top 30 Poster
Offline
Top 30 Poster
R
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
I understand that the Artist wants songs that fit him. And it seems some or many have a message they may want to convey. However will the public buy the message? Even more to the point, will a Label even consider songs that don't look to be marketable. I once listened to an artist's songs on a major label that he was trying to get released. The Label decided against releasing the album. Upon listening I had to agree. The release wasn't marketable.

I have seen posts where a Label was looking for Artist's that wrote their own songs. The problem with the artist writing or co-writing their own songs in most cases is there is a very narrow prospective. With all the outside songs out there the artist has a much better chance in finding good songs that are also marketable.


Ray E. Strode
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,426
Likes: 16
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,426
Likes: 16
Ray,

You are talking about some things that are outside of your or anybody's control. The things I am talking about are things you can do. Yes, labels, managers, publishers, can stop and reject songs, all the time. I even have had songs knocked out of contention due to political issues that had nothing to do with me.

The things you can control are: WRITING GREAT SONGS, HAVING THEM ALWAYS PRESENTED WELL, then NETWORKING with artists and people vital to a career. That is about it. The rest, BUSINESS really is in the hands of other people.

MAB

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,174
Top 500 Poster
Offline
Top 500 Poster
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,174

As an artist who performs my own material, I see no benefit to doing a whole CD - especially in my genre. The thing with comedy is - it's always hit or miss(those who watch SNL see this all the time). No one's really going to like everything you do - and with humor, my perspective after many years of doing both the humor and serious music is that humor is more selective when it comes to purchasing the product. Digital downloads are perfect for this market. As a publisher/record company though, I would hate to be bothered with keeping track of the pennies for mechanical royalties owed to collaborators on most songs. It would make more sense to write an agreement that would offer compensation only if a certain level of financial success of a songs made tracking the mechanical royalties worthwhile to both parties.

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
R
Top 30 Poster
Offline
Top 30 Poster
R
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
Humm,
Ya can go back, on the Industry Board and read UK "person" Slams Nashville for being Lazy. No doubt a lot of "Big Wheels" in important positions want to take as many short cuts as possible when putting out a release on an artist. The complaints have been legion over the years of the lack of good product. Not to mention the rotating list of songs being played on the radio. Kinda reminds me of that old saying THERE IS NEVER TIME ENOUGH TO DO IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME BUT THERE IS ALWAYS TIME TO DO IT OVER. Golly, I have just the song for those hot country singers!


Ray E. Strode
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,426
Likes: 16
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,426
Likes: 16
Ray,

i'm going to tell you something that will change everything in your life. QUIT WORRYING ABOUT ANYTHING THE INDUSTRY DOES!There is NOTHING you are ever going to be able to do about it! Trust me on this. It is never going to be what you think it should be. The artists are never going to measure up to what you think they should. We are in a different world and it is NOT going back, and all the ego inflated English people in the world who make whatever their pronouncements on it makes no difference in the world.

Everybody's got to get out of that complaining and whining phase. It doesn't change anything. The music industry at the top is doing just fine, just like all big businesses. And anyone that sits around waiting for them to "see the light" are going to be waiting forever. They're not. They are divested into hundreds and thousands of businesses and if one dies off (The money on songs themselves) they will shift to doing something else (The branding of artists) and they will do JUST FINE.

You can argue that the Internet has done JUST that. It has put millions of people and billions of songs into the pipeline. Music you like and artists you like are out there. It is up to YOU to find them.

But if you are waiting on somebody to arrive and have the revelation to "fix everything' where you or me or anybody is satisfied, you are just wasting your time. COMPLAINING DOES NOTHING AT ALL. NOTHING. NEVER HAS, NEVER WILL.

The things I talk about are in DOING SOMETHING YOU CAN CONTROL. You are gonna have to lose that shoulder chip at some time and work on things you can do something about. The rest is totally out of your control.

MAB

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
R
Top 30 Poster
Offline
Top 30 Poster
R
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
The Odds of Making it,
For over 20 years I belonged to the American Rose Society. Every year at least a million new seedlings were grown by the Hybridizers in hopes of developing the perfect rose. Of that 1 million seedlings only about 200 would ever make it to the market. Out of those many were entered in the All American Rose Selections. At that time there were about 18 gardens around the country that received the entries to be evaluated by the Consulting Rosarians over A 2 YEAR PERIOD. At the end of the 2 years they all met in Chicago to vote on the best entries to see if any of them Merited the Coveted Award of AARS Selection. Mostly 5 or less were judged good enough to receive the Award. Some years no awards were given.

And then the public began the process of growing the latest selections. Every 3 years the American Rose Society surveyed the members who gave their evaluations to a large selection of roses where points were given from 10, a perfect score downward. So, to make a long story longer, it is the buying public that will make the final decision on Roses and Songs! And other things as well, no?


Ray E. Strode
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,426
Likes: 16
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,426
Likes: 16
Ray,

In the time you were in that society, did you grow some stunning roses of your own? Did you bring some beauty to your area, and reflect well on your efforts? To me that would be a definition of "making it."

I think we all have to do that, especially in creative endeavors like songwriting. Bringing life to something magical that touches people's lives to me, is making it. Hearing something come to life from nothing,is a form of making it. Staying viable when many other's quit, to me is "making it."

And yes, the general public are the final arbiters of "making it." But sometimes just getting the product to them in the first place is an acheivement that should never be overlooked.

MAB

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
B
Top 100 Poster
Offline
Top 100 Poster
B
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
I wrote a song and did a video for it called HOMELESS & LIVING UNDER A BRIDGE. I got an e mail from some guy who was living in his car and still had his computer and saw and heard my song and said it meant a lot to him....and that meant a lot to me. I wrote a song called I AM THE UNBORN....WHATCHA GONNA DO FOR ME and heard from MANY pro life people and just in the past week made a song out of a lyric by my buddy about The Vietnam War....I made a really sad and powerful video of people at the Wall in DC.....I sent it to a LOT of VFW'S and Vietnam War Sites and got MANY incredible comments and One guy is showing the video at a 50 year anniversary get together of the War. SO yes it is important to write songs that touch people's hearts and are meaningful to others.....That is WHY we have the gift and it was never guaranteed that we'd be able to monetize it.....JUST USE it and Create Great Songs that make people laugh, cry and feel something....that is the Journey that we are on. It really has nothing to do with the countdowns and stupid award shows and the BIZZ....it's doing the work....SO Get busy.

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,426
Likes: 16
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,426
Likes: 16
That is by far the best post I have ever seen you do Barry. I salute you in the things you have done.That is EXACTLY why we are given whatever talents we have. That is precisley the way to use your gifts for the betterment of mankind. I would certainly rather read examples of what people are actually DOING in their careers instead of how bad the culture or industry is.

A refreshing read Barry.Thanks for doing that.
MAB

Last edited by Marc Barnette; 05/03/15 02:22 PM.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
R
Top 30 Poster
Offline
Top 30 Poster
R
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
Aw, Yez, Marc,
I even started a local chapter. We planted a Garden at the local hospital, now gone as they needed the room to expand. Just read some interesting News on the American Rose Society that the AARS selections are being discontinued but will be replaced with another smaller program.

The American Rose Society was started by several growers in the 1930's because of unscrupulous growers that sold roses by different names or were poor performers. After that the AARS Selections were started so the public had a better chance of getting a good plant.


Ray E. Strode
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,426
Likes: 16
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,426
Likes: 16
As someone who has my own little rose plants outside my window here, I salute you in your efforts.

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
B
Top 100 Poster
Offline
Top 100 Poster
B
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
Thanks Marc.....I had some kind of Experience a few years ago that WOKE ME UP and changed my life. I was in my little Den with my 20 year old equipment and I was pretty depressed. I was contemplating packing up ALL my stuff and putting it out of my site in the closet as I was JUST disgusted with the lack of progress after ALL these freaking years. I could never even get somebody to sing one of my songs for free. I was always thinking about the Commercial Success. I cried out "GOD I NEED A MIRACLE" and almost instantaneously I heard an Audible voice say "YOU ALREADY RECEIVED THE MIRACLE". I almost fell out of my chair and was really rattled. I was Straight and Awake and didn't know what the hell just happened. I finally went back to sleep and the next day I figured out what the VOICE meant....that The Miracle is THE GIFT.....It took about 3 weeks but eventually I wrote a song called TALENT ON LOAN and then changed it to THE GIFT but whatever it is called THAT Experience completely changed my songwriting focus and direction. I realized that I had a responsibility to USE the gift for GOOD and not just write stupid dance songs or beer and party songs. After I wrote a song with a Powerful and Disturbing video called HOLLOCAUST / NEVER AGAIN and sent it to MANY Jewish and Holocaust Organizations I received one comment that was the best out of a lot of bests. This 90 year old Survivor of the Camps asked my WHY I'd write a song like that..... After much thought I told her "BECAUSE I CAN" SO I promised God that I'd spend the rest of my time HERE writing songs that are meaningful to peoples lives and songs that try and change things with my point of view like A SINGLE ACR OF KINDNESS..... I decided to sing in my natural rough sound and write in MY Style rather than every song sound different. When I got my cancer diagnosis one of the reasons I decided against chemo and radiation is because most get terrible neuropathy of their fingers. I still had more work to do and in the past 20 months I've probably written 100 songs and counting. SO.....that's my story. OF COURSE I wanted to be the next Neil or Bruce or Cat or Billy but it wasn't to be. But like snowflakes we are all different and on our own particular Journey. I've saved a LOT of the comments I've received over the past 8 years of posting my songs and have hundreds of amazing ones at HOW my songs made a difference. I wrote a song called GOODBYE MY FURRY OLD FRIEND....and I heard from a girl who just lost her best friend DOG and my song made her feel better and thanked me for it. ANYWAY I'm babbling on. Check out my song and story below as it's a Special Song. I enjoy your posts Marc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9wa8UC-XrE

Barry

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,044
Likes: 16
Top 40 Poster
OP Offline
Top 40 Poster
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,044
Likes: 16
Barry, I read your post with great interest, especially where God spoke to you. Say that to most people and they look at you like you are touched in the head. I know what you are talking about because it happened to me at least once. I was in church listening to a soloist singing and I questioned in my mind why God had given me the talent to write but not a great talent to sing what I wrote. Then, out of no where, I heard or felt within me a voice saying " I gave you the talent that is right for you, don't be envious of talents I've given others". Like you said, it startled me, but I no longer crave for a talent I don't have. I just try to write the best I can and hope God will supply those that are blest with good singing voices to come along and sing what I write. But the way the system is working now, that is not likely to happen. But nothing is impossible with God.

I write mostly positive and Christian songs, because if God wants to get out a message to today's society, He will need preachers, authors and songwriters to do it, so I try to be open to His messages. I know for certain of one person that accepted Jesus into his heart on his death bed while listening to my first
tape of gospel songs. That is a story in it's self. I won't tell it here, too many cynics here to sneer.

Keep writing Barry. as I will, our reward will be in heaven not here on earth, this world is now the Devil's domain, and he don't want positive songs to be too popular, it does not suit his purpose.


Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
R
Top 30 Poster
Offline
Top 30 Poster
R
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,412
Um, Well,
I may understand those little voices from who knows where.

One day I was feeling pretty low. I heard a little voice that said, Cheer up, Things could get worse. I cheered up, and sure enough, things got worse! Write a Hit!


Ray E. Strode
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
B
Top 100 Poster
Offline
Top 100 Poster
B
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,259
WRITE A HIT That's a good title.
B

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,845
K
Top 100 Poster
Offline
Top 100 Poster
K
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,845
Originally Posted by Everett Adams
I thought SoundExchange collected for labels and artist only, where PROs collect for writers and publishers.


That is true as a general rule of thumb, but in this digital age rules of thumb are not as reliable as they used to be.

The statuary rates used to be paid by the record labels. So, if an artist self-publish a record on iTunes, CD Baby ect, you need an aggregator in place for the record label, otherwise the streaming mechanicals monies from those indie releases may remain uncollected. In case of self-publishing (by the artist), the artist(s) will have to pay you the statuary rate themselves (streaming mechanicals), as this is the publishers job. So the regular cashflow was record label to publisher to songwriter. With both record label and publisher out of the loop, streaming mechanicals from selfpublished works are then basically down to a transaction between you and the artist.

In that case, SoundExchange can act like an aggregator on behalf of the songwriter, collecting the statuary rate. Other aggregators are companies like Tunecore and many others that are now starting to make inroads to this mrkt.

So Everett, that's my take on answering your question "...but some people don't want to release any CDs but want to put up songs on CD Baby, ITunes, etc. for downloads. How do you license someone for that?"

I may have got it wrong (never trust a source on the Internet), the new digital cashflows seems a bit more complicated because the laws don't keep up with the digital developments. But check out this ressource for more detail on cashflows in the digital domain.

https://www.royaltyexchange.com/learn/music-royalties/

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,044
Likes: 16
Top 40 Poster
OP Offline
Top 40 Poster
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,044
Likes: 16
Thanks Kolstad. Read the link info, I believe it is only US radio that does not pay performance royalties to the artist and labels.

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,845
K
Top 100 Poster
Offline
Top 100 Poster
K
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,845
Just to follow up on this. Here's a recent post from CD Baby that may also help clarify this. We are talking how to collect mechanical royalties for streaming sales of DiY releases..

"Mechanical royalties are especially challenging to collect for DIY artists. These are collected for sales and interactive streams by Mechanical Rights Societies that, in most cases, operate separately from the performing rights societies in a particular country. Without a publishing deal, or working to affiliate yourself with several global mechanical societies, your mechanical royalties from streaming and foreign sales are going uncollected. They sit at the mechanical societies, waiting for you to claim them. A writer/publisher can attempt to affiliate with all of them (at great cost in both time and affiliation fees) or work with one publishing administrator who already has a relationship with these societies. With a the assistance of a publishing rights administrator, you collect EVERYTHING you are owed, minus a small commission."

Source: http://diymusician.cdbaby.com/2015/...source=facebook&utm_campaign=general

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,044
Likes: 16
Top 40 Poster
OP Offline
Top 40 Poster
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,044
Likes: 16
I am with SOCAN, and my understanding is that they have an affiliation with all PROs in most countries, and they collect any radio royalties I earn. I am also with CMRRA who can collect any mechanical royalties that are due me through their affiliation with their counter parts in foreign countries.

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,845
K
Top 100 Poster
Offline
Top 100 Poster
K
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,845
Yes, Everett, but your original question was how to collect if an independent artist puts up a song on CD Baby or iTunes for downloads.

As I understand it, in those particular cases, SOCAN/CMRRA will not collect royalties for you because there is no publisher involved.

So, it seems when you get a cut with an indie artist that is self-publishing, you will either have to collect yourself case by case, or use SoundExchange, Tune Core or another publishing administrator to do that work for you.

I may be wrong, but that is how I understand it. There seems to be new workflows in our age of self-publishing. It takes a while to get a grip of them for all of us.

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 10,190
Likes: 30
Top 20 Poster
Offline
Top 20 Poster
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 10,190
Likes: 30
Originally Posted by Kolstad
Yes, Everett, but your original question was how to collect if an independent artist puts up a song on CD Baby or iTunes for downloads.

As I understand it, in those particular cases, SOCAN/CMRRA will not collect royalties for you because there is no publisher involved.

So, it seems when you get a cut with an indie artist that is self-publishing, you will either have to collect yourself case by case, or use SoundExchange, Tune Core or another publishing administrator to do that work for you.

I may be wrong, but that is how I understand it. There seems to be new workflows in our age of self-publishing. It takes a while to get a grip of them for all of us.


Most PRO's allow the writer to register without designating a publisher. Thus, Everett would be entitled to writer's royalties through SOCAN. He can also register as the publisher and collect those as well.

John smile

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,845
K
Top 100 Poster
Offline
Top 100 Poster
K
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,845
Well, John. That may be true or not. According to the CD Baby article and the others I've linked to, the PRO's does not collect for self-published music released as downloads only.

Be aware the two premises 1) this only applies for self-published works that 2) only are available for download.

The PRO's does of course collect for everything else.

This is why songwriters also can collect monies from SoundExchange, Tune Core ect.

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 10,190
Likes: 30
Top 20 Poster
Offline
Top 20 Poster
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 10,190
Likes: 30
Don't know what the reasoning is behind that Kolstad. If you register your tracks with ASCAP as the publisher, it has a publisher - the writer/ publisher. Can't comprehend any difference it should make. The writer can even create a name like "Quality Zone Publishers". How would CD Baby know the writer is the publisher.

John smile

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,845
K
Top 100 Poster
Offline
Top 100 Poster
K
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,845
Right, I checked the FAQ at SoundExchange, and what they cover is the royalties for the (p) which is the sound recording, not the (c) which is the copyright.

So, in case you as a songwriter own the (p) the soundrecording, as well as the (c) the copyright, you can use SoundExchange (and others) to collect for you. This sometimes does happen, if you have recorded and released a song you have written yourself, or if you as a songwriter have paid for a work-for-hire, and thereby also own the soundrecording (p).

The songwriter who has no share in the soundrecording, the (p), are covered either by the PROs or in the case of indie artists who self-publish on iTunes, CD Baby, Bandcamp and others, these companies are obliged to pay out royalties directly to their clients.

From the FAQ "SoundExchange collects and distributes royalties for the featured artist and the sound recording copyright owner when content is played on a non-interactive digital source."

See more at: http://www.soundexchange.com/generalfaq/

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,174
Top 500 Poster
Offline
Top 500 Poster
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,174
In talking about the (p) vss (c) copyright. As a entertainer/songwriter, I am affected by the copyright requirements. If I write my own material 100%, I can protect the sound recording and creative work with the SR copyright and only pay $35. If I co-write, I pay a higher amount for the copyright. And I don't remember if I need both SR and PA if I co-write. But I'll probably be checking that one out soon.


Link Copied to Clipboard
Support Just Plain Folks

We would like to keep the membership in Just Plain Folks FREE! Your donation helps support the many programs we offer including Road Trips and the Music Awards.


Newest Members
chriscastle, yasir252, cathennashira, Samwise, HappySousa
21,470 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums117
Topics125,717
Posts1,160,950
Members21,470
Most Online37,523
Jan 25th, 2020
Just Plain Quotes
"If one man can do it, any man can do it. It is true. But the real question is, if one man did it, are you willing to do what it takes to do it as well?" –Brian Austin Whitney
Today's Birthdays
warriorgirl (2024)
Popular Topics(Views)
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5