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#1074440 02/18/15 12:15 AM
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Dave asked me to start a thread on ISIS. Here's an article and it says don't under-estimate these folks (and yes we are in trouble): What ISIS Really Wants.



"Good science comes in peer reviewed journals. Conspiracy theories come in YouTube videos. "
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Same old thing. People want to enforce their will on others.

Time to start learning from history. Don't ignore the threat.

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Well,
The question is where the H is the United Natons? That is what they were formed for. Our feerles Leader needs to lead. But as usual he is out doing fund raising.


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I very rarely enter the political arena but I have to say that no state can exist without support from the people or support from funds. Who is supporting and who is funding?
Find them and what they're about.
Vic


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It's 1936 all over again. And the Jews in Europe should get out NOW while they have the chance or will have the same fate as the German Jews. All I can think of is WHILE THE WORLD SLEPT. Also The President seems Delusional to me and I voted for him twice. Something on the ground MUST start and SOON.
Something is wrong with this picture.
Thanks for the thread to let us vent.

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Hi Kevin:

Thanks for allowing and enabling this thread. We, as a Nation, are fortunate this outrageous activity is going on in what we call the Middle East. It appears to be spreading and while we are using our Navy and Air Force to bomb them... a war of this type cannot be won without troops in place... or well-placed spies or agents to direct exactly when and where to strike.

This is like no other war we have fought before. Our enemy does not exist as a recognized nation, they operate by no rules other than their own (as they interpret from the Muslim Koran) and they are ruthless, cowardly and most are willing to die for what they believe to be a future reward.

Here's hoping that our current Administration will continue to take action and develop a strategy to defeat these evil people (very much as evil as the Nazis of WWII) in their chosen theatre of operations... over there.

Regards... and thanks again,

Dave

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Have you all read the article? This is a nation, a caliphate. ... and it seems our military and intelligence community has been slow to wake up to what is really going on (if the article is even 1/2 true).

I don't have an answer, but a war doesn't make sense when you don't even know your enemy. We've made that mistake before.


"Good science comes in peer reviewed journals. Conspiracy theories come in YouTube videos. "
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I copied this from a google site after looking up the difference between them and al qaeda
"The Islamic State, by contrast, requires territory to remain legitimate, and a top-down structure to rule it. (Its bureaucracy is divided into civil and military arms, and its territory into provinces.)"

There's the target. Their territory and means to hold it.


It's never too late? Yes it is, so do it now.

If, given time, a monkey can write the complete works of Shakespeare maybe there's hope for me.

http://store.cdbaby.com/cd/vicarnold2

http://www.soundclick.com/vicarnold

http://soundcloud.com/vic-arnold

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I copied this from a google site after looking up the difference between them and al qaeda
"The Islamic State, by contrast, requires territory to remain legitimate, and a top-down structure to rule it. (Its bureaucracy is divided into civil and military arms, and its territory into provinces.)"

There's the target. Their territory and means to hold it.


It's never too late? Yes it is, so do it now.

If, given time, a monkey can write the complete works of Shakespeare maybe there's hope for me.

http://store.cdbaby.com/cd/vicarnold2

http://www.soundclick.com/vicarnold

http://soundcloud.com/vic-arnold

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Nevermind...

If you're surprised by ANY of what is happening... you weren't paying attention to the right sources of information or you weren't paying attention at all.


Brian Austin Whitney
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Hi Brian:

I'm not surprised about what is happening. I am surprised at the casual, even cavalier attitude our government appears to be taking. If we don't act in a position of leadership (as we finally did in WWII) millions of people will be displaced or murdered by these thugs.

Our government created a huge vacuum when we pulled our troops from Iraq. Other Presidents seemed to learn from their mistakes. This one somehow refuses to even acknowledge the will of the people in the most recent, mid-term elections. He lives in a world of strange idealism and surrounds himself with cronies.

Four Secretaries of Defense during his six years in office. Gee whiz, even Leon Panetta of the President's own party has trouble defending this guy. As much as I love golf... when the Ox is in the Ditch... you put your clubs away, roll up your sleeves and lead the effort to pull the Ox out! I'm not seeing any of that.

Am I wrong to be concerned?

Regards,

Dave

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I read most of the article but it is too early in the morning for that much information. In a way, I see these people doing things other religions did hundreds of years ago (burning witches, removing heads with a guillotine, fighting in the crusades, etc. etc.) and I look at them as having not evolved yet.

My gut reaction is to say build a wall around their caliphate and keep them in and others out until they catch up with the rest of the world (in a few hundred years?). Cut off their supply of weapons and food and any other imported items and they will crash and burn because they have no way of manufacturing anything themselves except possibly oil.

Ultimately, I think the more modernized middle eastern countries will have to step up to the plate. Egypt, Saudi Arabia, etc. are rich because they supply oil to the world and they want to continue that. They know they must contain these nutheads. The west will have to provide a lot of support.

They presently control a land area about the size of a medium US state. The terrain looks like New Mexico away from the irrigated sections. Finding the leaders is probably like looking for Bin Laden.....gotta check every cave in every hill.

We have to get inside the heads of the leaders and figure out what turns them on. We are used to leaders who want money, luxury and power. This bunch might be different to some extent. They no doubt want power, but they seem to enjoy cruelty and suffering more than money.

I suspect that our government and the Pres are a lot more concerned about them than they let on. They are walking the thin line between honoring our principles of religious freedom and taking out a bunch of religious radicals. They are careful not to bad mouth the normal Muslims while going after the terrorists. I expect Pres. Obama is glad to be leaving office after this term.....


Colin

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So the US plan to defeat ISIS is to get rid of the non-Sunni leaders and train Sunni rebel groups in a Sunni country and send them back to Syria (a non Sunni country) to over throw a Shiite leader at the same time we support a Sunni country (Turkey) that is suppressing it's Kurdish (non- Sunni) population. Not to mention we want to destroy the top Shiite country of Iran.

What kind of idiots are running this asylum. Or are they idiots?
The majority of Kenyan Muslims are Sunni.


Last edited by Sue Rarick; 02/18/15 11:03 AM.



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This is a struggle( a spiritual war) between light and darkness, good and evil, Jesus and the Devil. It is all leading up to the final battle in Armageddon, the valley of Megiddo. The bible tells all about it, it will happen in the last days and we are in the last days. All the signs that Jesus said to watch for that would show that the end was near, are all falling into place. All those that are ready, look up, your redemption draws nigh.

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Everett, That's what they said about WWI and WWII.....


Colin

I try to critique as if you mean business.....

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Hi Sue:

Thanks for your informative input. Sorting out Sunni versus Shiite Muslims is not easy for those of us who live in a country where we have spent years infighting between our own Christian Denominations.

The world received a massive "heads up" when India was partitioned and the Muslims established the Nation of Pakistan. They still have flare-ups between communities within India but before the partitioning took place, there was bloodshed every day.

There are probably several non-violent Muslim Groups but they appear to be intimidated by those who demand violence against all non-Muslim Religions. The idea that one person's religion is the only way is the largest single cause of war between nations. (Usually disguised as something else... or as Atheism.)

It is a Sad world, ever shrinking due to technological advances impacting those who are unwilling to change or compromise.

Regards,

Dave

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Um, Barry,
You voted for Whats-His-Name twice. You have my sympathies Barry. But hell, it's a do it yourself world everybody is entitled to a mistake or two.

One time somebody asked what should we do about this mess. Another guy replied. Let them pay for it. They voted for it.

Written long ago, Those that don't learn from History are bound to repeat it.

Neville Chamberlean went to Hitler and thought we could have Peace in our Time. Hitler had a Non-Agresson Pact with Stalin. We all know where that went.

Obama get's plenty of good advice from his own advisors. He has no ability to understand it. He is too busy giving away the country to the Food Stamp crowd, the Ilegals, free Tution to students who will be flipping hamburgers with a degree of some kind. Rome is burning and Nero is Fiddleing.

Let's see. I believe I read that Obama is having a Confrence on ISIS. And so it goes from the back of the Turnip Truck.


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In MY Opinion we have seen this Picture Before and it is Happening Again. This is FAR more serious than the average person walking on an American Street who doesn't even know Who won the Civil War.....Two girls answered Jesse Waters Question with "DIDN' THE AMERICAN WIN"....That won't do and we are in DEEP DOO DOO....This is a New Kind of War and WE don't know how to fight the older wars. We would have LOST WW2 if Hitler didn't invade Russia. I don't have a lot of answers BUT these Psychopaths should NOT Have a Place/Country where recruits can go to period! The big elephant in the room is that We are the only ones who can do this. I'd love for all the Arab Countries to at least wipe these suckers out but sadly I've come to the conclusion that even if they put ground troops in there ISIS would probably defeat them. AGAIN we are going to HAVE to do it. I hated the Iraq War and WHY We stayed all that time but WE cannot shirk our responsibility NOW using that catastrophe for NOT doing this now. THIS IS AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT ANIMAL. Of course it's coming to a Kindergarten, Mall or Sporting Event here very soon and THAT is a different Problem. BUT as usual America is Not Proactive but reactive and it's going to take 200 people in a Mall blown up to wake the Americans UP. We ARE going to eventually have to put in at least 100,000 Infantry and tanks in there....it's coming as sure as the sun will rise in the east tomorrow.....Buckle your seat belts as this is going to be a wild ride. God Bless Us ALL....

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I disagree that we are the only country that can stop ISIS.

Arm the Kurds, Arm Assad and keep arming Jordan and stop hampering Iran and it would get resolved.

Stop bowing to Saudi and Turkey, who finance them then give lip service to stopping them.

We are spending more time hampering the very nations that could resolve this. The question shouldn't be can we stop them but why are we hampering those nations?




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What I'm saying is that in the END we will wind up being 99 % of the forces on the ground. It IS Coming. And the longer we wait the harder this is going to be. We will eventually have no choice. ALSO....and this is radical on my part.....I'd leave OPEC and just use our own oil. AND If the Corporations made a stink I'd Nationalize all the Oil, Fracking and Natural Gas in the Country AND have Congress Declare War....We can run ALL our Trucks that go all over the Country with Natural gas....THEN We can tell the Middle East to go fry and egg. BUT as long as it is like it is IF ISIS somehow gets into Saudi Arabia OIL will be $500 a barrel and we will HAVE to send in a Million men. They could MINE the oil fields....wall street would tank and we'd be in deep doo, doo.

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Originally Posted by Ray E. Strode


Obama get's plenty of good advice from his own advisors. He has no ability to understand it. He is too busy giving away the country to the Food Stamp crowd, the Ilegals, free Tution to students who will be flipping hamburgers with a degree of some kind. Rome is burning and Nero is Fiddleing.



If that's true, Ray, he's doing a lousy job. Have you been paying attention? The well-off are the ones who are making out. You can criticize this president for many things but this is not one of them.

Scott

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During what we think of as the first "Gulf War", one of the stated reasons for it, as then President Bush stated, was; "To bring peace and stability to the Middle East"

As if that could ever be done.....

May Heaven bless, and forgive, those who try.

Bowing out now, and going to watch. "Charlie Wilson's War" again on DVD.

Criminy...
Midnite


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Um, Scott Campbell,
What's-His-Name is doing a lousy job? Even a lot of Liberal's are saying that. Not sure what Liberal wrote the Book Amatuer describing Obama, maybe Herb Klein. For the record we could say the Obama Administration has been a big fat zero. However with all the people that lost jobs because of "Obama Care" Zero would be a plus. Well we all know Obama wanted to spread the "Wealth" around. A lot of it went to other countries. You ain't still defending Obama, are you Scott? Sorry the book was by Edward Klein. Look it up.

Last edited by Ray E. Strode; 02/19/15 12:29 AM.

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So instead of refuting my point (which can't really be refuted because it is based on readily available facts), you toss out a whole bunch more statements that are almost just as easy to refute. smile

Carry on, Ray. grin


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News flash:

Brother kills brother and then flees country to marry some woman from the land of Nod.

News flash:

Brother steals brother's birthright

News flash

The birthright stealing brothers "kin" are each still killing the others over who are the proper "heirs" thousands of years later....

News flash:

Native tribe welcomes newcomers onto their sacred ground, but eventually lose it all for the sake of. "Manifest Destiny"

News flash:

British troops routed by Colonialists hiding behind trees..

News flash: Wishing to remain anonymous, a British Officer is quoted as saying "This is a type of warfare we've never seen before...

News flash:

Middle Eastern King quoted: "There's nothing new under the sun."

News flash: Middle Eastern philosopher sentenced to death for asking "Why".

News flash: Farmgirl tells dog: I don't think we're in Kansas anymore.

News flash: Musical Website scares off musicians for the sake of political debates--Again...

Film at 11:00...

Midnite


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Hi Bob:

You have an interesting perspective on history. If an open discussion about the state of the middle east and the horror of ISIS scares off musicians... not for the sake of politics... but for the sake of making oridinary citizens aware of this threat. A threat from a bunch of cowards who fight to annihilate all the good things the west stands for by beheading innocent war correspondents and photographers, burning alive captive airmen and beheading a large group of Egyptian Coptic Christians. If this is politics... and if it scares musicians and songwriters away to sites that stick their heads in the sand and ignore the threat... so be it.

We read about these thugs in every big city newspaper. If you have a better strategy to keep another 9/11 from happening, I'd sure like to hear about it. They have repeated their desire to make trouble here many times. The Boston Marathon comes to mind,

Nobody wants to fight another war but if it must be fought... isn't it better to take it to them over there and destroy and humiliate these lilly-livered pukes in their own bunkers and trenches? I agree with Sue about arming the Kurds... and Jordanians. They are the only groups who fight well and need our support. I don't care who the "boots on the ground" against ISIS/ISIL happen to be... as long as they fight with courage and vigor. Sadly, the troops from Iraq have demonstrated a lack of desire to fight. (Granted, they had bad leadership in all three of these wars.)

Finally the American Patriots who took a stand against the British in Colonial Times... did not always hide behind trees. If they had not taken that stand, we would not enjoy the freedom we have today. Yorktown was not a bad example of how Washington whipped up a bunch of rag-tag civilians into a well trained Army then defeated the best equipped Army in the world at that time.

Like you and others here, I would prefer to discuss music related subjects... but those who remained silent at the beginning of WWII lived to regret the genocide and turmoil that war caused. Thank God for Winston Churchill. Half English and half American... he showed us what courage in the face of adversity really means.

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

All my best,

Dave

I respect your opinion but I reserve the right to disagree without rancor or mis-directed anger. We are on the same side, we simply have differing opinions. If I sit silently and do not express mine, then I am guilty of not raising the alarm.

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Scott you do realize it was Obama that gave the OK to fund 'rebels' in Syria.....and among those rebels was ISIS....now you can carry on.




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Originally Posted by Colin Ward
Everett, That's what they said about WWI and WWII.....


Only thing is back then there was no country called Israel, there is now. The bible says once the Jews return to their land and they become a country, which they did in 1948, that this generation will not pass away before my returning. The generation alive in 1948 are getting up there in age, so Jesus will soon return, that battle has to be fought before that happens. Israel regained Jerusalem in 1967 which became their capital and made them a complete country, so maybe we start counting from the generation alive at that time, but either way, we are nearing that time.

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Um, Well,
It reminds me of the old story, AROUND AND AROUND AND AROUND WE GO, WHERE WE STOP, NOBODY KNOW. Or in other words, The liars are figuring and the figures are lying.

As noted Obama had a Conference with some World Leaders, or some such happening and did what? Came out and "Explained" why these "Wonderful People" were hurting. Still Leading from behind.


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Evil is Evil....."WHILE MEN SLEPT & now "WHILE MEN SLEEP"

The Blame Game over WHO caused this GW, Obama etc. etc. etc. Is an exercise in futility and a waste of time. I wrote a song once called " A FEW GOOD MEN".....and we really need a few Abe Lincolns or Winston or Eisenhower. Evil MUST be dealt with or we will ALL be consumed by all this. This is partly about the idiocy of Religion, Psychopaths, Money and Evil.....I believe that each Country is going to have to deal with attacks on their homeland but the Main Tumor in The Middle East and Africa MUST be addressed NOW or we will rue the day we didn't. No halfway measures as this Physical Place over there which is a Nut Job Magnet has to be annihilated. JUST MY TAKE ON IT.

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It seems today the administration is more concerned about "What should we call these people?". Lord knows we shouldn't offend other Muslims. They're giving the world a history lesson on previous religious wars, as if saying, "Well you Christens have done the same thing". Is he going to lead or teach Sunday School?

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Originally Posted by Dave Rice
Hi Bob:

....Thanks for sharing your opinion.

All my best,

Dave

I respect your opinion but I reserve the right to disagree without rancor or mis-directed anger. We are on the same side, we simply have differing opinions. If I sit silently and do not express mine, then I am guilty of not raising the alarm.


Hi Dave,

That's one of the MANY things that I love about you! You "respect and reserve"...As we've shared in PM's, we're really not that far apart....Keep up the "good fight", in whichever way you're able....And thanks for understanding my "sense of history" as I try & try, and usually fail:-)

Ain't God, Free Speech, and Friends wonderful!!!

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."....Edmund Burke

Midnite


Satchel was right. Something is gaining on me.

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I'm 80 % satisfied with Obama regarding ISIS. Not sure what you all want him to do. Send in ground troops? This has become a global deal now. Hopefully the Arab League steps in and helps out Libya. They are next to fall to ISIS and if they fall then Malta & Italy is next. And then the rest of Europe will be in chaos soon enough.

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Originally Posted by Sue Rarick
Scott you do realize it was Obama that gave the OK to fund 'rebels' in Syria.....and among those rebels was ISIS....now you can carry on.


Since your comment is totally unrelated to the point I was giving Ray grief about, I'm not sure how to carry on, Sue. But thanks for the encouragement. smile

Scott

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I love a good debate---NOT---Because I've seen so few of them, anywhere since high school. But when temperatures run high, between Family Members, I hope we don't forget about the value of a good ol' PM...

Just sayin...

Midnite

P.S..."Charlie Wilson's War"...The film takes a lot less time to watch than the book does to read, and is a darned good "flick", all things considered here.


Satchel was right. Something is gaining on me.

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Hi Bob:

While I think trouble often begins when a reader believes a comment on the internet is directed to him personally, I have to admit that, in this case, there is no harm (and possibly some good) in my doing so.

So, duly noted. smile

To get myself on topic: I think we all agree that ISIS is an imminent threat. The differences we may have are in how to deal with it.

Several folks here have posted statements along the lines of "he who ignores history is doomed to repeat it", an idea I strongly agree with. However, in all cases (I think), they were referring to our delay in entering World War II - with the implication that, had we entered earlier, many lives might have been saved. I agree with this too, though we have the unfair advantage of looking back on things...

Here's the thing though - If you're going to acknowledge the importance of history in decision making, you can't cherry pick. So yes, we have to consider WW2. But we also have to consider what happens when we arm someone just because they are fighting a common enemy (Afghanistan against Russia), what happens when we prop up a middle east dictator (the Shah of Iran) and what happens when we don't understand the people of the country we are invading (the Iraqis will greet us as liberators).

What's the answer? Hell if I know. I spend all my time trying to learn more thermodynamics and differential equations so that I can do a better job teaching them. I can't be an expert in Mideast affairs too. So I can only hope that the folks in charge of answering this threat are as good at their job as I am in mine - and that they take it as seriously as I do mine.

I DO have a sense that this particular threat requires cool heads that take ALL relevant history into account. In that sense, I have some confidence in this administration (maybe, like Aaron, 80%, maybe a little less). Certainly more confidence than I would have had in alternative administrations.

I do believe this threat has to be addressed and sooner rather than later. But history does not support the two most obvious actions (US-only ground forces or arming others). I think there has to be a broad coalition - which seems feasible not because of our expertise in diplomacy but because we have a terrorist group that has gone out of its way to alienate everyone. Coalition building takes some time though - I hope our leaders are using it wisely.

I do NOT believe that the President, with his recent statements, is lecturing American citizens on the benefits of Islam. Rather, I think he is trying to drive a wedge between the terrorists and the (Muslim) man on the street. I guess I think it's worth trying but I don't have much hope that it will succeed.

Thanks for posting the link to that article, Kevin. Certainly helps to define the scope of the problem.

Scott


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Everyone makes the same mistake when dealing with this threat. This is not a movement that wants to take some territory, claim their government, and that is it. This is an ideology built on Death. Osama Bin Laden even said that, "The West embraces life, we embrace death."

There is not a "reasoning with it." There is not a negotiation with it. This ideology is bent on subjigation of the world. It is bent on demanding Sharia law everywhere and will accept nothing less. It is not going to respond at all to touchy feely encounter sessions, or jobs training or "understanding" it. The "understanding is that YOU CAPITULATE, OR DIE."

Everett and many people's alluding to the last days, and the end of times are EXACTLY what they are thinking. Except for a shining trumpet, Allilulia choruses, and Angels singing,and streets of gold, there is Allah, the rest of the world destroyed by fire, and 72 Virgins.

Anyone who is not prepared to take them on their terms are going to meet the same fates as that Jordanian pilot, people being beheaded and Christians and Jews who are being eradicated all over the Middle East. Europe is next and then here. And if you have not been watching areas in Michigan, like Dearborn, and seen the signs of the "Training camps", or seen what they are teaching in their Mosques here, you are not paying attention. It is here now.

MAB

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Agreed Marc,
President Bush, sometime before leaving Office warned about leaving the Mid East too soon. No new starting revelation, just good sense. I'm sure it is Posted so you can most likely look it up and listen to it.

Obama came in wanting to remove all the Troops from the Mid East and made campaign promises to that effect. No problem, we all want an end to the conflict. Now you would think, the people over there would see the light and become peaceful.

After WW-1 you would have thought there would have been peace in Europe. But a Madman showed up and the mess started over again. It is estimated about 50 million people were killed in WW-2.

Like it or not the President of the U.S. is the world leader. George Bush, like him or not, was a real leader. Obama, like it or not, is perceived as weak. He has passed the buck and the world all see it. It looks like it is going to get a whole lot worse before it get's better. And it looks like the next president is going to have to clean up the mess.

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I agree Marc, it is here. Christians over there are dying because of their faith,(just as the bible says will happen in the last days) and soon they will be dying over here, unless Christians recant and accept Allah, we will give up our lives. If we recant we will save our earthly life but we will lose our spiritual life. How much longer before the mark of the beast when no man can buy or sell unless he has that mark. All this is in the bible to happen, we don't know the day or hour but we can know the general season by the signs that Jesus said to watch for.

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All great points. The bottom line is IF WE can't get a lot of other ground troops from other countries to join us WE are going to have to do it. It's just the way it is.

BUT this problem is OVER THERE AND Local and it is really going to get ugly before it gets better.

It's a SHAME Religion was invented by Men looking to basically control people and make a lot of money. It is not necessary to go on Sunday to a Middle Man to reach God....I believe you can just close your eyes anywhere and Pray.....

We are in charge of this Place called Planet Earth and God gave us Free Will whether we like it or not. There are all kinds of people from 1 - 100% and it's like a great big board game that we have to figure out AND The Planet is VERY Far away from figuring it out.....God Must be watching with great interest as we muck through all this that I'm sure he expected......B

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Is ISIS ideology really any different than the end game of Christianity? It really just seems like they are all too excited for their gods to eradicate all of the non believers on earth.

I haven't done anything remotely bad enough to deserve to die. I don't know why Christians and Muslims think I deserve death simply because I don't believe what they believe. Anyone who thinks non believers should die is messed up in the head and should be considered an extremist or radical. I'm harmless. I just don't get why they think their God should kill me. Maybe someone can answer that for me?

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This is not an anti american post. It's the reality of what has been happening since the end of WW2. I just wanted to point that out as I am sure it offends some patriots in here.

George Bush's administration caused this mess by killing Saddam. All of a sudden he was a bad guy despite gassing the Kurds for you guys during the Iran and Iraq war more than 15 years earlier..

http://foreignpolicy.com/2013/08/26...america-helped-saddam-as-he-gassed-iran/

Obama's administration also caused this mess by killing Gadaffi. He by all accounts was not too bad of a guy to his people yet he had to go cause USA said so. And arming the Syrian rebels whom then pledged allegiance to extremist groups and then ISIS.

They both have left their share of power vaacuums that have created the environment for ISIS to manipulate and extrapolate into what they are now.
It's a good thing Assad is still alive. He's the only thing keeping Syria from turning full on ISIS and you still wanna kill him!

But this isn't new. The world has long been a play thing for American Presidents and each and every single one has opened pandoras box only to find out the consequences of opening said box has ugly realities inside.

This is why the world needs to move together on this and not just the Americans taking lead. Everyone needs to join.

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I was all okay for arming the Kurds but they've started to mirror ISIS and are now beheading, running around with severed heads, drinking blood, dragging bodies behind trucks, raping women in the villages they liberated. I don't wish to support them anymore if we cannot teach them how to be better than ISIS fighters.

I certainly don't want my country involved with them if they continue partaking in extracurricular activities.

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Originally Posted by Marc Barnette
Everyone makes the same mistake when dealing with this threat. This is not a movement that wants to take some territory, claim their government, and that is it. This is an ideology built on Death. Osama Bin Laden even said that, "The West embraces life, we embrace death."


If anyone DID make that mistake, I doubt they are making it now.

I can't argue with anything you've written Marc. But it doesn't address HOW to deal with the threat.

We can't just go in there unilaterally, as much as that might appeal. If we do, were just going to create new enemies. Not because we weren't on the side of right - but because people will propagandize our actions to suit their own agenda, as they have done over and over again in the Middle East. We have to leaders of other countries to buy in. Given the recent responses of Egypt and Jordan, I think we have a real chance here.

Ray talked about how the peace after WWI should have held but a madman came along and riled everyone up. He was able to do this because the German people felt they got a raw deal in the Treaty of Versailles. The consensus seems to be that, in fact, they got a pretty good deal. But the perception among Germans was that they were screwed and Hitler capitalized on this.

This could have been avoided. We are much better at winning wars than we are winning the peace.

Scott

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First Step- Recognize HOW WE GOT HERE

1) The history of unrest goes back to WWI and the way the US, England and France reorganized a crumbled Ottoman Empire...all with an eye on the oil of the region. They created Kingdoms and Kings and "mandates"--areas directly ruled by them. Jordan, Iraq and Saudi Arabia, for example, became Kingdoms while Syria was a French mandate and England had a mandate over Palestine.

The problem was that this is not what had been promised the region for helping defeat the Ottoman Empire, which was a losing participant in the war, and truth be told, tottering anyway. Internal divisions also arose, and the King of Iraq was soon overthrown.

Persia (Iran) though officially neutral in WW1, was also rich in oil, so lots of attention paid by the west to it as well...not all of it good.

2) Over the years, England began to support the idea of a Jewish homeland in Palestine which ultimately resulted in the creation of the State of Israel. In the late 1940's Jewish terrorist groups actually fought against the British to agitate for a formal country which was recognized by the UN in 1948.

As Britain was leaving, and as the Jewish faction became stronger and expansionist (The British had tried to divided Palestine formally among the Palestinians and the Jews) incidents by extremist factions caused an exodus of Palestinian refugees into Jordan and elsewhere.

In stepped the US to guarantee the State of Israel and it has done so since. Over the years this has caused lots of problems in the area, and there is lots of blame for this to go around. I have learned and verified enough of this conflict that I actually find it appalling that my government is myopically supportive of Israel.

3)Into this muddle pot, the most recent cause has been Islamic radicalism that we label as Islamist radicalism...a severely conservative movement that seeks to impose Islam and Islamic law, Sharia Law, over people's social, political and personal lives.

It stems from the Wahabi, aka Salafi movement that seeks to return Islam to its roots. It is an ultra orthodox, conservative, fundamentalist etc movement. What gives it so much power is that its scholars and leaders have an agreement with the Saudi Royal Family that keeps them both in power...and is the reason why this movement gets so much funding

4) The we come to the crystalizing factor...9-11. Bin Laden came from a wealthy, powerful Saudi family and he despised what he saw as foreigners on Saudi soil...non believers desecrating the Islamic "Holy Land". This is why the 9-11 terrorist team was predominantly Saudi

This led to the US invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq.

Both wars have had lasting an unresolved repercussions.

5) Now we come to Syria, and internal dissension that was emboldened by "the Arab Spring". After the French mandate, Syria became a republic, and it has been ruled by the Ba'ath Party for many years. The current president, Assad, is the son of Syria's former ruler, and their family is a member of the Alawite sect of Shia Islam.

As you can imagine, a hereditary dictatorship and a ruler of a minority Islamic sect is not a good recipe for rule, especially when emboldened by western support of the Arab Spring. Internal dissent became civil war, and many factions fought each other and the government.

ISIS was one of these groups...by all accounts one of the most fundamentalist factions of all.

The real problem though lay in Iraq. There many Sunni (the major branch of Islam) tribes felt disenfranchised by what became a predominantly Shiite Iraqi government that was supported by the US. Now they did try to temper the situation by encouraging voting and after the votes to ensure the predominantly Shiite government considered the Sunni situation, but there is a long long standing animosity between Sunnis and Shias, so not much luck there.

What happened is that when ISIS started its push to establish a Caliphate (a political entity ruled by the religious leader) they found a ready ally in the Iraq Sunnis, leading to their rapid expansion and easy victories over a poorly trained, equipped and motivated Iraqi army.

IN SHORT...we have a region that is unstable because of a long history of western meddling and natural internal divisions...all vying for power for their own reasons and the advancement of their own interests. |

This includes an Israel that is seeking security, but is hampered by its own internal divisions whereby its own right wing is expansionist and seeking a greater Israel at the expense of Palestine (so no, not all Israelis are on board here but the right wing has a strong political voice that is being catered to).

The West wants oil and political stability (the reasons they support Saudi Arabia)

Internally, various sects of Islam are trying to gain power over the others.


SO WHAT NOW?

There is no question ISIS must be stopped.

I would love to see them engage in dialogue with others, to come to an understanding we are really, at our cores, the same all over the world. But this message is lost on these radical elements. They see their own path as the ONLY way and all other paths are wrong.

The fact too is they are killing more Muslims than any others (and this is true in many areas affected by terrorism) because they consider any Muslim not bowing to their ideology as apostates who deserve death. Yes, I am sure other people of faith are being killed by ISIS, but if they submit to Islamic rule, oddly enough they are protected and must pay a special tax. And their gruesome killings are, as the article points out, a means to challenge the west to "come and get them" and to sow fear.

So their violent natures driven by their radical beliefs have created a situation that has to be dealt with militarily. I trust we will get there collectively but it will take time and effort and smart decisions.

But that too takes time. And we are in "this time" now. It will unfold over the next two to three years.

In the meantime what we can do is elect smart people to government, and stand united as a people for all people who share our values (and this transcends religion--I'm talking values such as mutual respect, a desire for peace FOR others as well as ourselves, of generosity to others, of fostering aspects of our common humanity)

By that I mean is that whatever our differences in terms of nationality, race, ethnicity, religion, language, experience, history, aspirations etc,…..what we have in common is our status as sentient human beings: …..living, breathing, feeling human beings who experience emotions, have aspirations, whose quality of life is eroded by pain and suffering and humiliation, ……and who deserve to have their dignity as human beings equally respected

If we can do that, and adhere to that, we can do the right things right in this fight. It allows us to value people of all faiths and traditions who want a lasting and fair peace in that region, and more importantly, we will work to make that happen.





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This was an awesome post John.

What's your take on the whole Niqab thing while taking an oath for citizenship?

Personally it doesn't matter to me but the conservatives are all angry.

Do you know who you want to be PM after this election? I'm on the fence.

I'd like to see what Trudeau can do in a minority government with a NDP opposition. Harper is playing on the fear Muslim and oooh terrorism crowd.
I'm not buying it.

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Um, Scott,
To your question of how to solve this. Have you ever heard the story of the two farmers and their mules. I guess not.

Um Aaron,
The Jury is still out on Organized Religion. However most or none be-head others just because they disagree with the others.

Your statement that the World has always been a plaything for U.S. Presidents exposes you level of Intelligence. The U.S. and most of the Free World doesn't start wars to gain territory like Japan and Hitler did.

Japan attacked the U.S because we wouldn't sell them war materials. Note: We didn't attack them, they attacked us.


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Ray, it really matters little how most or none behead others just because they disagree with others. The fact is that they believe their Gods are going to kill all of the non believers. Dead is dead is dead. If they believe that's what their God is gonna do (kill non believers) and stand behind their God despite this then they are radicals in my eye.

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Originally Posted by Ray E. Strode
Um, Scott,
To your question of how to solve this. Have you ever heard the story of the two farmers and their mules. I guess not.


Um, Ray:

No I have not. But I can't imagine how it would apply. This is not a case of a farmer and two mules. At best, this is a case of 30 cats and no herder.

Scott

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It all boils down the worse thing ever invented RELIGION.....Get RID OF IT.

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