|
|
#928829 - 10/19/11 04:29 AM
Critiques...what have you learned from them?
|
BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8077
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
|
OK We have given and probably received many critiques over the years...but what have we learned from them? Have you given a critique that is fair honest and helps or received a critique that has helped YOU in a particular way?.....
Is there an example of a pretty good honest on the money critique you can give a link to....or even a bad one.
Sometimes when I hear a song and read the critiques I wonder if they are talking about the same song.
What constitutes a good critique and what criteria denotes a bad one......
I am not talking about the quality of the song....I am talking about the quality of the appraisal.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#928844 - 10/19/11 06:43 AM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
|
the songcabinet
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 3390
Loc: Denmark
|
I've learned a lot from critiques. More than anything from the lyricists here at JPF, who's level of talent is unrivalled in any comparable Internet forum, I believe.
I think the exact thing is that I've learned to pay attention to details. No matter how small they seem, every syllable is really huge in a 3min song. One minor drop off can make any listener zap to the next song, so every small comment can be important to direct attention to those small but very important things.
About concrete examples, I think I haven't been able to finish a single song in a year due to critiques. I rewrite, rewrite, put it down for a while, reread the critiques, rewrite ect. So for me, critiques are definitely not helping to speed up the process, but to slow it down. Just like a session with any good teacher would, if you choose to listen that is. The more annoyed you get about the critique, the more there probably is to learn from it, is my experience.
And sometimes a comment on a song just means "hello, I hear what you are up to", and that's also allright. Appreciative in it's own respect. So there's a difference between a comment and a critique, but both are viable in building relationships, I think.
Like with any new relationship, you have to tolerate a certain amount of babble to build a safe environment for others to speak what's on their mind. So comments and critiques are also to be seen as statements in an ongoing conversation, and not isolated. Folks are too smart to pour their heart out to complete strangers.
If I were to say what the ultimate quality of appraisal was, it would be that the listener would risk something of their own in the poster-commenter relationship. Like an A&R person who after having listened, saying they want to sign the song, or an artist saying they'd like to record it, or a Radio promoter who want's to put the song in heavy rotation.
Those kind of responses are not likely to happen (that's the attraction of getting pro reviews from Publishers, A&R people ect.), and I believe that is the exact reason we never really experience fulfillment from posting a song. There's always something wrong with it in someones eyes, and if everything is great we feel the critiques are sloppy. What we really, REALLY want is to have someone say, this is a classic song, I'll sell my house to market it for you.
So, as posters we need to understand what we are dealing with. Posting a song is really about beginning a conversation and inviting relationships, as much as merely asking for a "peer review" or an "expert advice", and it's always up to us to decide how far we'd like to take it.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#928845 - 10/19/11 06:44 AM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
|
Roy Cooper
Helping Hand
Registered: 09/27/09
Posts: 2773
|
Most time Big Jim people offer suggestions which are not really critiques, I guess. and usually they suggestions are real good and nearly always make me rethink the lyrics and do a re-write. Sometimes 14 re-writes is usual for me.
I have been know to drive co-writers to dispair lol.
However 3 or 4 times someone has really torn into what I have written and things that were missed by me or not obvious have really improved my writing on those occations.
Of course innitialy I was angry with the critiques on a couple of examples, but then stood back and realised that the critiquer was right. I guess it how you say it sometimes... lol
I do however have two occations that were not only brutal but hurtful and dare I say it, nasty in the way my lyrics were critiqued by someone.
Not on this site I would hasten to add. And both times on other sites, I removed myself from those sites.. lol
I feel it was their loss not mine lol... nothing like self praise. lol
If I can think of the examples I will add them, but it was way back.
Come to think of it, one one occation, I had a brutal critique on JPF, but it wasnt nasty and it really helped on that occation, so I am thankful for it.... no names lol
Sorry if I didnt exactly answer your question.
critique me if you like. lol
God Bless Roy and Helen
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#928849 - 10/19/11 07:18 AM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: Roy Cooper]
|
Scott Campbell
Top 10 Poster
Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 10861
Loc: Lakeland, FL, USA
|
I don't think I've learned anything about songwriting concepts from critiques. I mean, if you've listened to music for 40 years, you're pretty much going to know all the different song structures, rhyming conventions, importance of metering, etc. That doesn't mean I believe I write good songs - just that I understand songwriting concepts.
Where critiques HAVE been very helpful is when they have provided specific suggestions about a particular song - such as:
Some horns in there would be really cool
I don't understand what you are getting at in that line of lyric
The accents are falling on the wrong syllables there
Try EQing your vocal this way
That guitar string is out of tune
That kind of thing. 
Also, if I'm on the fence about something in a song and a critique mentions it without any prompting from me - that provides a lot of incentive to make the change
It's been a while since I've had a song torn to shreds here - but, those times it happened really led to improved versions of the songs.
Scott
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#928851 - 10/19/11 07:31 AM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: Roy Cooper]
|
Colin Ward
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 05/31/06
Posts: 4663
Loc: Saint Petersburg. FL
|
First I feel honored when someone takes the time to listen to a song of mine and critique it, regardless of what they say. Nobody is obligated to do that.
The number one thing I get from it is a new perspective. I may put a line in a song the meaning of which seems obvious to me, but someone else may not get it because they are listening from outside of my head or my experiences. So it is valuable to know how a "stranger" reacts to the lyrics and melody. Also, when we spend a lot of time on a forum like this, we learn about our fellow writers and consider the source when we receive a critique.
As far as my critiquing others is concerned, I try to help lift the song one level from where it presently stands. We are all at our own level of skill and talent and should be striving for the next step up. So bashing a song from a beginner and trying to make it perfect is too much for the writer to swallow all at once. Best to offer baby step suggestions to get the writer to think for himself and raise it a step at a time. I try to consider the idea behind the lyric and then the execution. Lots of people have great ideas but fall flat in the actual writing. (I am just about at capacity when it comes to break-up songs....people keep writing them but they rarely make the radio.)
It is also hard to know how someone will react to comments. Some ask for help and accept ideas openly - others are not very receptive. To me, there is no point in sugar coating a turd so I say something that I think is useful or just move on if I don't think I can contribute.
The bottom line is that songwriting is an art and, as such, is subjective and nobody really knows what the public would latch on to. We are just giving our opinions based on our experiences, our taste and what has worked in the past.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#928853 - 10/19/11 08:11 AM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: Colin Ward]
|
niteshift
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 12/17/06
Posts: 4053
Loc: Sydney, Australia
|
Hey Big Jim,
What do I get from a critique ? Generally those small bits I have forgotten, overlooked, or just simply missed.
If 2 or 3 folks say "hey, your timing is off at the x bar" ... then it probably is. Likewise if the lyrics don't fit, or the overall sound is out of whack, then something needs to be done to improve it.
When working on a piece, it's all too easy to get so tied up in it that you can't see the forest for the trees. A good critique should give an overall view, then other smaller points where improvement could be made. If the song is pretty much Ok, then it's "no nits" from me.
Please..... if you are going to critique a song, then "I really liked it" doesn't really cut it for me.
cheers, niteshift
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#928856 - 10/19/11 08:25 AM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them? *DELETED*
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
|
Sausagelink
Serious Contributor
Registered: 08/01/09
Posts: 669
|
Post deleted by Sausagelink
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#928861 - 10/19/11 09:18 AM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: Sausagelink]
|
PopTodd
Top 200 Poster
Registered: 06/06/01
Posts: 1606
Loc: Western Springs, IL, USA
|
It's sorta knocked the proud out of me, for one thing. Helped me to see my songs from a more-objective perspective and, whether I agree with the critique or not, I can see new directions to take things.
Sometimes folks don't "get" what I'm trying to do. And I now get that it's not their fault, it's mine. And, while that may not necessarily change the song that they don't get, it will change the way that I may approach future songs.
A broader perspective.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#928866 - 10/19/11 09:27 AM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
|
Tom Shea
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 3565
Loc: Nebraska
|
I have learned a lot.
1) structure - I have settled on v/pc/c/v/pc/c/b/pc/c for all songs.
2) need for big / huge differentiation music of the chorus and verses and bridge
3) much more
TFunk
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#928886 - 10/19/11 12:05 PM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: Tom Shea]
|
BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8077
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
|
Thanks all for the input.......I very much agree with most of what you say.......I would stress one point that has been touched upon....a fresh look or fresh pair of ears......all to often it takes someone else to point out the blindingly obvious......we can take it on board or refuse to accept it......that is our choice.
At the end of the day it is the writers own song so up to them to listen to critiques or ignore them.....my philosophy is to ignore critiques at your peril if you are a serious songwriter cause if a number of people point out a neg...then it probably is a neg that probably should be addressed.
Worktapes are designed so that the bare bones are displayed to show off a songs potential and are often sent for critique....no point in wasting time and money of a finished demo...that needs changing. Post a worktape first.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#928906 - 10/19/11 04:24 PM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
|
Noel Downs
Top 100 Poster*
Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 1548
Loc: Gungal NSW Australia
|
Some very good responses... I have probobly learnt more from critiquing others as I have from the critiques I've received...
The other thing I've noticed is there are three types of critiquers,
Those that what to help you write a better song by benifit of their experience,
Those that feel the need to write your song how they would write it, and
Those that burn everyone to make themselves feel better about themselves.
Cheers
Noel
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#928910 - 10/19/11 04:42 PM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
|
Mark Kaufman
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 09/25/07
Posts: 5927
Loc: Minneapolis
|
I've learned that anything I put out there will eventually get every possible response from "love it" to "hate it".
I've learned that following the general consensus usually makes the song more boring.
I've learned that mistakes are often better than corrections.
I've learned that people often want you to make your song more like theirs.
I've learned that complimentary critiques are less helpful than harsh critiques.
I've learned that universal acclaim for a song won't necessarily increase its number of plays. A good thread argument, however, will.
I've learned who I sound like.
I've learned how to make songs more acceptable to publishers who reject songs by the reviewers.
...okay okay, just kidding!  Sort of. Even though I often feel these things, the deeper truth is that just one little suggestion from some random stranger can sometimes be the key to bursting open the door of understanding for ALL of your future songs. That has happened to me here many, many times. If you're early on in your songwriting journey, you need all the critiques you can get...and after you've learned a lot of the basic lessons, then you STILL need to listen. In the end, you have to make the call...and as much as I believe we must to stick to our visions or risk turning generic, we also still need to listen hard and to truly embrace every comment we hear, with as much honesty as we can muster. Otherwise, we probably won't ever change much.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#929013 - 10/20/11 08:52 AM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: Mark Kaufman]
|
Dave Rice
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 02/20/05
Posts: 3414
Loc: Glen Rose, TX , USA
|
An interesting topic, Jim:
Most critiques are given by songwriters to each other with mutual support in mind... and most are glowing or nice comments. Unfortunately, these "critiques" may be soothing but they do not allow the songwriter to zero in on his/her weaknesses or areas needing improvement.
Every now and then, you encounter the opposite end of the spectrum and may feel "humiliated" by the words expressed. In the final analysis... most "critiques" are soothing, a few are harsh, but neither provides sufficient feedback to promote improvement.
I value an objective critique. I prefer to receive it "in private" and I want specifics. If there exists a "checklist" of the many facets related to a song, it's lyrics, the melody, the genre targeted, the message, vocal delivery, musical backing... all with a point system of 1 to 10 for each category... it would be much more beneficial than a wordy, written reply. Making it as impersonal (but specific) as possible (and private) would be much more satisfactory to the recipient. (In my opinion.)
If I had a standardized form to fill out, addressing these and other issues related to a specific song or performance, I would be much more prone to give as well as request critiques. In essence, I don't want others "reading my report card."
The act of being a songwriter is not for sissies... LOL! An honest critique is a valuable tool if provided in an effective and objective manner.
No matter what, the songwriter should eventually analyze the results of song critiques and react according to what he/she believes is the best path... even if it involves "swimming against the current." How many artists or songwriters have been told their work "sucks" and still overcame adversity?
Who said, "It's not important how many people dislike your work... it's how many embrace it?"
_________________________
Fame is fleeting... money will last a little longer... but a good song is forever! Showcase Your Music
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#929016 - 10/20/11 09:10 AM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: Mark Kaufman]
|
MaxG
Serious Contributor
Registered: 09/08/11
Posts: 233
|
Yea! Since I've been here (it's just a little time) I already received some good critiques that fair honestly said what's wrong and WHY ...
I liked so much that 'why' and that's the reason why I took them into account and I will go for them in my next songs! thank you guys!
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#929017 - 10/20/11 09:10 AM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: Mark Kaufman]
|
MaxG
Serious Contributor
Registered: 09/08/11
Posts: 233
|
Yea! Since I've been here (it's just a little time) I already received some good critiques that fair honestly said what's wrong and WHY ...
I liked so much that 'why' and that's the reason why I took them into account and I will go for them in my next songs! thank you guys!
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#929018 - 10/20/11 09:10 AM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: Mark Kaufman]
|
MaxG
Serious Contributor
Registered: 09/08/11
Posts: 233
|
Edited by MaxG (10/20/11 09:11 AM)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#929098 - 10/20/11 05:36 PM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
|
Mackie H.
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 09/20/09
Posts: 5683
Loc: NASHVILLE, TN
|
JIM
THIS IS A GREAT THREAD!
MANY OF US HERE WOULD LIKE TO HAVE THAT HIT --A LOT OF US UNDERSTAND, THAT THE MUSIC BIZ SUCKS FOR MOST OUTSIDERS--THIS IS IN CAPS--CAUSE I’M THINKING OUT LOUD!
THERE ARE SEVERAL TYPES OF CRITIQUERS :
1-ATTA BOY--THESE ARE NICE AND SOMEWHAT NECESSARY FOR BUILDING EGO TO START WITH--
2-POSITIVE AND GET THE MESSAGE--KILLER HOOK
3-NEGATIVE ON STRUCTURE
LIST IMPROVEMENTS--IDEAS--THESE HELP ME
4-RHYME SHOOTERS--TRITE PHRASES-BETTER WAY TO DO A COUPLET--HELP ALOT
CAUSES MY WHEELS TO SPIN AND IMPROVEMENTS CAN BEGIN
5-TOTAL RE-WRITE--SOMETIMES I’M GUILTY OF THIS--BUT I’M STILL TRYING TO HELP--IT TAKES TIME TO DO THIS
6-CLOSE FRIENDS AND CO-WRITERS--MOSTLY BEING DONE BEHIND CLOSED DOORS--VERY PRODUCTIVE
7-SOME THAT ARE ON ANOTHER PLANET--HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE SONG IS ABOUT--SOMETIMES THESE HELP--HONING THE STORY OR IDEA SOME.
8-A LOT OF OTHERS I’D HAVE TO THINK ABOUT.............
THOUGH MANY ON THIS SITE NEVER COMMENTED ON ANY OF MY LYRICS OR SONGS, I FIGURE SOME DAY THEY MAY, WHEN I GET A LYRIC OR SONG GOOD ENOUGH--OF COURSE GENRE AND MATERIAL PROBABLY HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH THAT--SO I KEEP WRITING AND BARE BONE RECORDING LIKE A LOT OF OTHERS--LEARNING FROM MANY: THOSE WHO DO RESPOND--
Mackie
Edited by Mackie H. (10/21/11 06:01 PM)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#929268 - 10/21/11 02:52 PM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: Mackie H.]
|
BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8077
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
|
Mackie thanks for the response.....I would point out though that not EVERYONE is looking for that big hit.....OK to most it would be nice BUT that is not the reason many possibly most of us write songs or indeed ask for critiques. Speaking for myself I write firstly for my own pleasure and amusement.....if anybody else likes any of my creations then that is a bonus.....I could not care less if anyone wants to turn my song into a big hit or not....that does not mean I am not a serious writer it just means I have no allusions about the biz or what constitutes a hit. I am forever trying to improve and perfect the craft and find both giving and receiving critiques rewarding and a great learning process.
I would go so far as to say that most people write songs for writing songs sake and any success or hit is a welcome side effect rather than a pre planned goal. Most will not give up if they do not have any success and never wrote with success in mind.
On the other hand there is a tiny corps of so called pro songwriters who IMO spoil the art by writing hits to a template to create or manufacture cloned hits. Most of these songs are pretty mediocre and from an artistic POV are just copies of what is charting at the moment they add little to the table except bring hits to impressionable teenagers who will forget the thing in a couple of months or so anyway.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#929340 - 10/22/11 03:07 AM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
|
Stevens119
Serious Contributor
Registered: 11/25/06
Posts: 377
Loc: Nashville, TN
|
Honestly, I don't believe in "song critiques" as they call them. I do believe in suggestions, more specific, suggestions and fixes by co-writers. However, I don't play people stuff of mine until it's done. If you are just getting started, and you don't really understand how or what to write, then they may be very useful. If someone is that unsure about what they have written, then I can see that as an avenue for improvement. Some years ago I had a couple songs "Critiqued" by some people who's names I don't remember. Using _____ services. But I'm positive they knew no more about my song than I did. Who's to say the person reviewing/critiquing your song is any better of a songwriter than you. As a songwriter your songs will be polarized. Either people like it, or they don't. I don't let other people, other than co-writers/publishers give me suggestions. Nor do I offer the same for anybody else. I mean, it ain't my song. I certainly don't want to tell you how to write or re-write your song, and I don't expect for anyone to tell me either. It's my song. In a co-writing situation, yes. You tell each other back and forth what you think is good and what isn't. I consider it a critique if enough people don't like it. That's what writing another song is for. Everybody wants other people to like their songs, because you want people to feel the way you felt when you wrote it. Songwriters have enough walls to climb and bridges to cross to not have someone else tell you it's a dud before you even do anything with the song. I've personally never critiqued anyone's stuff, (online or elsewhere) unless I was involved with the project. If it's my business to say something I will.
Critique = Co-writer to me. If you change the words of my song, you essentially wrote it with me. Right? How would you deal with a situation where you received a critique from somebody online and that song went on to be a hit, and they weren't compensated for their contribution? What if there were multiple suggestions used in the song from multiple people? What if it was 10 people that you used suggestions from? There is after all, proof (online) that they gave you those suggestions. Maybe only one person has a problem with it, and is not happy for you and your new hit...and rightfully so, because they wrote it too. I think we can all agree that would be a tough spot to be in. so...no critiques from me, and none accepted from others. People will like the song...or not.
I don't wish to try to sway anyone's opinion one way or the other on this subject. I just figured since the question was about song critiques I would offer my take on it
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#929354 - 10/22/11 07:45 AM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: Stevens119]
|
Kevin Emmrich
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 8632
Loc: Crozet, VA
|
... Critique = Co-writer to me. If you change the words of my song, you essentially wrote it with me. Right? How would you deal with a situation where you received a critique from somebody online and that song went on to be a hit, and they weren't compensated for their contribution? What if there were multiple suggestions used in the song from multiple people? ...
This topic has been discussed before and the consensus of opinion was that is a pretty good chance you'll get sued by somebody if one of your songs that was posted here for "critiques" becomes a hit!! (ha, ha). I guess that is one reason why hit writers don't contribute publicly to boards like this. Plus, if you are a hit writer/artist, then you don't have time to hang out on public forums too much.
Honestly, I don't believe in "song critiques" as they call them. I do believe in suggestions, more specific, suggestions and fixes by co-writers. However, I don't play people stuff of mine until it's done.
By and large, I think that for most folks here -- this is our audience. We post songs here for listening and commenting, make changes, re-post and re-start the process. We also listen to others and comment on their stuff. Most of us won't have a hit record or big selling CD (hey, over 1,000 copies would probably be a huge seller to one of us). So this is it for us.
I like to think my critiques are fair and honest -- but I do realize that folks think I am on the negative side. The problem is that I write the critique while listening, so mostly I just type what I think -- good or bad. Of course, the benefit of this approach is that other don't hold back too much when listening/critiquing my stuff.
So I think I have learned to write/construct songs better because of my time here. What else can you ask for?
Kevin
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#929355 - 10/22/11 08:03 AM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: Stevens119]
|
Vicarn
Top 200 Poster
Registered: 11/16/10
Posts: 1112
Loc: UK
|
Personally, I don't like to give to much detail in a critique. What qualifications do I have? Have I written a couple of hits?To assume you know more than the person who wrote the song is arrogant. I don't like Jerusalem artichokes so how can I criticise someone who does. They obviously taste different to them.
The term "In my opinion" is the best way to start or finish a critique. ie. "In my opinion the song has a good start and middle but lacks an ending" or "In my opinion the chorus doesn't reflect the meaning of the song".
Vic
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#929357 - 10/22/11 08:13 AM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: Vicarn]
|
Kevin Emmrich
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 8632
Loc: Crozet, VA
|
... What qualifications do I have? Have I written a couple of hits?
To assume you know more than the person who wrote the song is arrogant. ...
The term "In my opinion" is the best way to start or finish a critique. ...
I think that is a common misperception in song critiquing. You don't have to be a better songwriter than someone (or "know more") to make meaningful and helpful critiques. You just have to be able to articulate what you like and don't like about a song. It is up to the writer to decide what to use and what to ignore.
If I have to be better than someone here to comment on a tune, then I might as well just not participate anymore.
Kevin
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#929358 - 10/22/11 08:50 AM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: Kevin Emmrich]
|
JamesDF5
Serious Contributor
Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 341
Loc: London UK
|
Nice post Jim.
I think critiques serve two things: Ego & learning.
If you are open to understanding both of those things then you will benefit from critiques.
I have been upset from critiques in the past because I thought I was the greatest. Once I allowed me ego to understand I started to learn what I needed to see.
What's nice about critique when you get to the stage where you are producing good work is they feed the ego more and keep pushing you to produce better and work harder. So really I can't say a bad word about critiques.
One thing that writers should take on board is this:
"A single critique is only an opinion based on personal experience and preference" But, if several people share the same opinion with you then you probably should take on board what they are saying.
Jim
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#929367 - 10/22/11 09:41 AM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: Vicarn]
|
Colin Ward
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 05/31/06
Posts: 4663
Loc: Saint Petersburg. FL
|
What qualifications do I have? Have I written a couple of hits?To assume you know more than the person who wrote the song is arrogant.
I would have to disagree with this statement. First, the people who ask for critiques want to know what others think of their song. You are a human being from essentially the same culture so you are a potential audience member so of course I would want to know what you think. If you hate my song, I want to know why. You don't have to to rewrite it for me, but I value your opinion whether you have written a hit song or not.
Somebody said he doesn't want critiques which is fine, but when he has finally finished his song and possibly spent hundreds of dollars on a demo, what if everybody hates it? Oh crap - they don't understand the lyric - the $500 went down the drain because the music doesn't go with the lyric - and so on.
I need fresh ears.......
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#929403 - 10/22/11 12:32 PM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: Colin Ward]
|
Stevens119
Serious Contributor
Registered: 11/25/06
Posts: 377
Loc: Nashville, TN
|
finally finished his song and possibly spent hundreds of dollars on a demo, what if everybody hates it? Oh crap - they don't understand the lyric
As I said, I don't offer advice on peoples songs, because it's a touchy subject, but I offer plenty of advice about the business and recording to any and all, pretty much all the time. Even questions about the process of writing songs themselves. I am not a teacher, that's not my function, but I do get asked alot for advice, my opinions, and how I do things. I have been through alot in the business so far, and I certainly don't mind sharing my thoughts on what it takes to make certain things happen. One thing that I never do, and it may not be common knowledge here, is I never leave a tracking session without the session files. If only because I want them for backup, or maybe I want to do an (alt) mix, or maybe I need to add stuff to the track. Maybe I want to sing a vocal, or get somebody else to. I may need to send a rough out for whatever reason, or send the track for somebody to play on, or sing on.
Also, to avoid having to do a recall every time you change a lyric, I suggest when getting your final mix, to also get a final mix without vocals, and maybe an additional one with just background vocals. That way, if your lyrics changes, all you have to do is put a vocal on there. I do realize that not everybody has the equipment and knowledge to just put another vocal on a track, but if you know somebody that does, it's easy enough to change the lyric of a song. Not that a recall is hard, but if you live in Poughkeepsie and your song was recorded in Nashville, than this could be a problem. Always get a final mix of just the track. That way, you never have to be sorry about whats on tape...it can always be changed.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#929435 - 10/22/11 03:21 PM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: Stevens119]
|
BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8077
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
|
I agree that you do not need to be a better writer or have a string of hits before you are qualified to critique.....just like you do not need to be a Michelin star chef to pass judgement on food......you either like a thing or you do not....and you probably know why you like it or if you did not can give suggestions as to how it could be improved. In the days of tin pan alley new songs were given the "old grey whistle test"......they were played to the old doormen referred to as "Old Greys" because of their grey suits..... now if they picked up on a catchy tune and whistled along to it the song passed.
Actually I prefer a judgement from a lay person whose opinion I can trust than from someone who perhaps may for various reasons not quite give an accurate appraisal.
Re what to put into or leave out of a demo...well we have to first establish what the demo or worktape is for....and obviously the budget involved. Rule of thumb is a final demo should be the best quality you can get.....whilst we should keep a worktape simple just to get the song across... no point in spending time and money on something that may be ditched or dramatically changed.....
Any pro studio or decent software program records in a non destructive way so that parts can be edited and cut and diced or adjusted or revisited even after the final mix cause all tracks are separate and all edits and edit history etc can be done or undone at any stage.....eg a vocal or part of it can be stripped out and replaced or another guitar part added etc and all balances and volumes altered etc...it is difficult to do that with some of the bottom end of the market ways of recording.....Bearing that in mind it is a good idea to state at what stage the song is when asking for a critique.....and whether a song is a draft work tape yet unfinished or a finished demo.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#929439 - 10/22/11 03:41 PM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: Vicarn]
|
ben willis
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/10/06
Posts: 4842
Loc: Ft. Myers, FL. USA
|
Personally, I don't like Jerusalem artichokes so how can I criticise someone who does. They obviously taste different to them.
Vic
I don't know Jerusalem artichokes from California artichokes, but I do love canned artichoke hearts dipped in butter milk, breaded, and deep fried.
Back to the subject at hand.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#929447 - 10/22/11 05:23 PM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: ben willis]
|
Johnny Daubert
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 01/27/01
Posts: 7185
Loc: New Jersey, USA
|
Hey Big JIM!
I think, as with cowriting, coproducing, coplaying etc., the more ideas or encouragement, the more info we have to decide anything.
It takes a lot for someone to give a thoughtful critique. Many thanks to everyone that ever gave me one. And even more thanks for each one after that first one!
I think it all adds up to our thinking at whatever we are doing later on.
I just hope I didn't give someone any confusing advice!
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#929449 - 10/22/11 06:18 PM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: Johnny Daubert]
|
Moker Jarrett
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 05/26/06
Posts: 4426
Loc: jacksonville, fl
|
I have learned who I enjoy a critique from and who I don't. I have also learned some only take and do not give. For what it's worth I do both. There is a group of guys and gals on here whom I have a great deal of respect for and others ,while it's entirely their right to do things with less tact- well not so much...a reflection of life itself. The words you choose in your critique can hurt a less experienced writer to the point of being discouraging to them. I have,out of necessity,grown a thick skin over time from countless publisher and artist submissions that didn't end up succesful. Here in an open forum like JPF,it is always better to build them up and gently deliver the parts you felt needed improvement. All in all it's a healthy thing to put your stuff out there and see what other writers have to say about it...wouldn't say it's ever helped me get a cut, but I have met people on here and gotten cuts with them. be well...mj
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#929471 - 10/22/11 10:28 PM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: Moker Jarrett]
|
BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8077
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
|
Thanks again guys.....all points are well made.
One thing I have learned is that everyone has a different opinion and a different ear.....but if most people give a lot of negs then the song needs a lot of work...if mostly positives well you are at least headed in the right direction.
Another important lesson I have learned, and I agree with others who mentioned it is to know who is critiquing and what level they are coming from. All critiques are valuable but some more experienced guys opinions IMO carry a little more weight than others.
I have also gained knowledge and experience from listening to styles of music I may never have heard before. Whilst some of the genres may not be my preferred cup of tea I can still appreciate the skill and craft and to watch how some of my fellow songwriters grow and blossom...no names.... but there are many here who I have seen grow from their first faltering attempt at a lyric to a pretty good craftsperson in both music and lyrics. Long may it continue.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#929483 - 10/22/11 11:13 PM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
|
ben willis
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/10/06
Posts: 4842
Loc: Ft. Myers, FL. USA
|
What about fried artichoke hearts?
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#929494 - 10/23/11 06:25 AM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: ben willis]
|
Vicarn
Top 200 Poster
Registered: 11/16/10
Posts: 1112
Loc: UK
|
Ben,
I love those artichokes that you're talking about. Fried, grilled, boiled, poached, pickled, served on a bed of sun dried damsel flies and lightly dusted with flagellated bees poo or lightly drizzled with charlie's angel spit.
Jerusalem artichokes are those tubers that look like small potatoes and taste and smell like overcooked ping pong balls.
Vic
Edited by Vicarn (10/23/11 08:47 AM)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#929530 - 10/23/11 12:28 PM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
|
Esther9874
Casual Observer
Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 3
|
When my songs are critiqued the only thing that helps me is hearing specifics. Sometimes people told me things like "pull this thing together more" or "it's a little too quirky" or "make it more contemporary", etc. But these didn't help much. I prefer the kind of critique that says things like "your title shouldn't be repeated in the outro because...", etc.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#929559 - 10/23/11 07:56 PM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: Esther9874]
|
BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8077
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
|
Yes Eszter a more in depth critique is preferable to most folks wanting specifics....a tip worth trying is when submitting to state exactly what kind of critique you want.....it sometimes helps but any critique is better than none....you have to take the rough with the smooth.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#929586 - 10/24/11 04:04 AM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
|
MaxG
Serious Contributor
Registered: 09/08/11
Posts: 233
|
didnt know the story of 'old grey whistle test', it is very nice! I think that fellows knew how to work! and I believe too that as a listener (the only one that matters), a sogwriter opinion count as everyboby else - the only difference is that, if he is in the mood ;-) the former can give you some suggestions!
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#929607 - 10/24/11 09:25 AM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: MaxG]
|
BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8077
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
|
All in all an interesting thread......
Some strong points have come out.
1. If you are a hobbyist and just want to improve your writing skills then critiquing, both giving and receiving, are part of a valuable tool chest.
2. If you are serious and trying to get a cut...then the only persons whose opinions count are the folks you submit to....a critique may help get there but it needs to be from someone who knows their stuff.
3. When submitting a song for critiquing it is important to state what kind of feedback and in depth responses you want and to say at what stage in development the song is.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#929609 - 10/24/11 11:17 AM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
|
Mark Kaufman
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 09/25/07
Posts: 5927
Loc: Minneapolis
|
I also think it's extremely important to learn to critique yourself. Every critique I've received has been just as important to future songs than to the one being addressed--because I try very hard to remember what I've learned and to carry it forward. Otherwise, I just keep repeating the error.
No one will ever be "beyond the need for critiques"...even the Beatles put out a few stinkers that really should have been improved upon. But it's also possible to sharpen your own opinions about your own work. I say the harshest things to myself sometimes! ...things I would never write to someone else. But I think it's important to be as blunt as possible with our own work, or we risk fooling ourselves...but not others.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#929725 - 10/24/11 08:51 PM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: Mark Kaufman]
|
Doug Barnett
Serious Contributor
Registered: 09/19/04
Posts: 427
Loc: Glendale, AZ, USA
|
I've learned quite a bit about communication as well as songwriting from the critiques here.
I learned to say what I thought needed work or what I thought was wrong, rather than just tossing it out like a hand grenade, waiting for an explosion of praise (that seldom came).
I also learned that what I thought was fantastic writing was NOT what other people saw. But on the other side of that, I find some people will love things I consider throw away.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#929882 - 10/25/11 07:29 PM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: Doug Barnett]
|
Paul Ryan
Serious Contributor
Registered: 09/29/09
Posts: 68
Loc: Toronto Canada
|
Critiques have been invaluable to me, from some glaring mechanical improvement possibilities to simply seeing song resolution from another's eyes, especially someone with credentials. Sometimes I also look for common threads of comment from song to song and critiquer (is that a word?) to critiquer. I believe we all have a natural tendency to return to some tried and true/comfortable writing elements so that keeps me out of ruts and keeps things fresh.
Paul Ryan
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#932173 - 11/11/11 08:06 PM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: Paul Ryan]
|
Sam Wilson
Serious Contributor
Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 2191
Loc: Nashville, TN USA
|
As with allowing someone else to play my djembe, allowing other writers to see my work shows me and tells me alot about what I do. I learn about my own instrument when another drummer plays it. I learn about my work when other writers read it and critique. I have to thank all of you for teaching me sooooo much about songwriting.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#932339 - 11/13/11 01:10 AM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: Sam Wilson]
|
Lisa Butler
Serious Contributor
Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 157
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
|
I've always found critiques incredibly valuable. In the beginning I felt very upset that my 'babies' were apparently way less beautiful than I thought! It was a massive hit to my ego, but over the years I've learned to accept this form of constructive criticism and I've become a better songwriter because of it.
These days I spend quite a bit of time critiquing other writer's work through my business, and I always remind the writers that its MY opinion based on what I've learned about hit songwriting.
To me, a good critique is one that points out the strengths and the weaknesses in a song without putting words in the writer's mouth. As a song critic, its not my job to write the song for them - its my job to give them direction, and stress areas of the song that can be made stronger and how to improve them.
When I critique a song, each comment is designed to guide the writer toward their end goal - to write the best song possible - regardless if they are writing for their personal pleasure or wanting to write hits for the radio. Either way, in order to get the most out of any song critique you have to have a strong self-esteem, be truly willing to listen and take advice on board, and understand that its not a personal attack on you or your song.
There can be an 'Ouch!' factor - especially the first few times your songs are critiqued, but anyone wanting a CAREER as a songwriter has to grow a tough hide and learn not to be 'precious' about their work.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#932840 - 11/16/11 05:44 AM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: Lisa Butler]
|
Steve Asplin
Casual Observer
Registered: 02/02/11
Posts: 20
Loc: New Zealand
|
Always appreciate what critiquers say, but I have a kind of spiritual attachment to songs and use the critique for future songwriting/reference rather than adjusting or re-writing the song in question.
My personal amusement is that when I try to be all clever with my lyrics people find it obvious, but when I try to be obvious with my lyrics it comes across as vague/mysterious.
I have also found that the general public like different things than songwriters/musos/critiquers so I always take things with a grain of salt regardless.
_________________________
Production Services - Mixing, Vocals, Guitars, Most Instrument Overdubs, Demo Recordings, Song Critiques. http://www.steveasplin.com
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#939820 - 01/09/12 09:33 PM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: the songcabinet]
|
pathardy
Serious Contributor
Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 103
|
I treat critiques this way, I look for a consensus on a particular point. If one person out of about of a dozen says X needs fixing, that's an opinion, but if four or five out that dozen say X needs fixing, it's time to fix it. One thing I like about a forum such as this is that if one person says X needs fixing, another might chime in and disagree, providing another perspective that you might not be able to obtain if you solicited critiques privately.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#939846 - 01/10/12 08:37 AM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: pathardy]
|
BonnieHickling
Serious Contributor
Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 164
Loc: Arizona U.S.A.
|
Critiques can be hurtful or helpful. It depends on how you look at them. Everyone has a different opinion and it shouldn't hurt your feelings if someone doesn't like what you do. Of course on the other hand, they could be in a bad mood that day or mad because you wrote something good and their having a brain fart. Some times I get mad when someone doesn't like what I write, but then I think about it and realize that they may have a great point that just might help me out. And I know that I'm not a great writer anyways, but hope that opinions will get me to be one some day. Don't take it too personal! That's show biz!
_________________________
Bonnie Hickling
Lyric writer would like to try to collaborate with a musician
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#939848 - 01/10/12 08:56 AM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: BonnieHickling]
|
Dan Sullivan
Serious Contributor
Registered: 07/17/10
Posts: 2121
Loc: MI
|
Critiques can be instructive for beginning songwriters or those still learning how to write a song, I suppose. But once you've figured out how it's done, you're on your own and pretty much left to your own devices. You have to trust your own instincts and judgments at some point and not pay attention to everyone who wants to rewrite the song or put their stamp on it.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#939855 - 01/10/12 10:15 AM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
|
Tom Shea
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 3565
Loc: Nebraska
|
I have learned a lot - including
song structure
the need to really differentiate verses from the chorus
nobody is obliged to like your songs.
Tom
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#940790 - 01/15/12 11:29 PM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: Tom Shea]
|
Pamela Bowne
Serious Contributor
Registered: 01/04/01
Posts: 401
Loc: Carrabelle, FL USA
|
I have learned so... much from critiques... Especially when I had the idea that the song was finished and someone could point specifically to how or where it could be improved. I also learn even more learning to critique other's songs and then think about where I could be having the same problem. What is so nice about the folks here is they understand why I would be asking for their time. When I shove papers under my brother's/husband's/friend's/stranger's noses they are usually kind enough to take a look and react with "that's nice."
Sure, lots of times I disappointed with the lack of help in the comments, but I'm always greatful for the effort when other jpf have time to read them. Please keep critiquing folks.
Pam
_________________________
Never think can't do - think how to
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#941155 - 01/18/12 05:28 PM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: Pamela Bowne]
|
Tim Behrens
Casual Observer
Registered: 03/05/08
Posts: 34
Loc: Kansas City, MO
|
After working and re-working, getting emotionally attached, playing things over and over, it's hard to hear things with a fresh perspective. I've learned that from the critiques I've gotten... that what I'm hearing in a song I've written may be more in my head than in reality.
I've also learned that complexity does not equal likability. Some of the simplest songs I've written have gone over far better than the ones where I try to be clever.
And, that something which doesn't go over well in one setting may very well have an audience somewhere else.
As far as giving critiques, I had an art teacher in high school who made a rule that for every suggestion/criticism you express about someone else's work, you need to offer something positive that does work. It's like lining up two ends of an arrow (good and bad) to point in the right direction. If someone only knows what they are doing wrong, it's easy for them to lose a grasp on what they've been doing right.
Great thread. Lots of food for thought.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#941218 - 01/19/12 02:25 AM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: Tim Behrens]
|
Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
|
Anyone who dismisses the opinions of a range of critiques is destined to please only 1 fan, themselves. -Brian Austin Whitney
You need to decide if you want to attract and please fans, or yourself. It's only a happy coincidence when you can regularly do both equally. Most hit writers I have spoken to have no real idea why something is a hit and something else flops. I always think to myself that an audience will usually be only so happy to tell them if they are willing to listen to them. Fellow writers have baggage and agendas and as we've stated for many years (and what was the entire reason for doing Mentor Critiques) is what Mark said. You learn far more about your own writing doing critiques for others. You only recognize bad writing when someone else is doing it. Then, if you're seasoned and aware, you can avoid those same mistakes in your next work. Usually seasoned reviewers learn that trick. The entry level people never get it at first which is too bad. If they stopped worrying about getting feedback and spent more time giving it, they'd learn so much more about their own writing. But try telling that to someone not ready to hear the truth. I've done it many many times. It isn't pretty.
I want to know what Sausagelink had to say but deleted?
Some truly excellent comments here, one of the best discussion posts I've read in a while. Congrats to all involved and to Jim for asking the "right" question. = )
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney 
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#941235 - 01/19/12 07:31 AM
Re: Critiques...what have you learned from them?
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
|
Dan Sullivan
Serious Contributor
Registered: 07/17/10
Posts: 2121
Loc: MI
|
Cook Honors College offers suggestions on writing a music critique. Though it's aimed at serious (or classical) music, its advice is applicable to more popular and common forms of song. It lists these 7 components of a good critique:
What was your overall reaction to the performance?
What was the strongest element of the performance?
What was the weakest element of the performance?
Was the event well-organized? Was there any element of the performance that detracted from your concentration or enhanced it?
If the performance is vocal, how did the text correspond with the music? Did the music communicate the text effectively?
If the performance was purely instrumental, what visual images and/or emotions might have been conveyed by the music? Did the music communicate effectively?
If there was a conductor, did you feel the conductor communicated his or her interpretation of the music to the players and the audience?
It also offers this helpful hint:
In addition, a simple method of describing the actual music itself is SHMRG: Sound, Harmony, Melody, Rhythm, and Growth (texture/formal structure). Even though many of you are not Music majors, you can list one thing about all or a few of these items that caught your attention. Since our minds cannot retain all that our ears hear in most cases, focus on a few key events and hold on to them as the music unfolds.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
Moderator: Brian Austin Whitney, Ashleigh Wehmeyer, Mike Dunbar, Kevin Emmrich
|
|
We would like to keep the membership in Just Plain Folks FREE! Your donation helps support the many programs we offer including Road Trips and the Music Awards.
|
|
19787 Members
120 Forums
101416 Topics
942856 Posts
Max Online: 1456 @ 04/10/08 05:00 PM
|
|
|
