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#928021 - 10/13/11 04:52 PM
Re: Sound Cards
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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Ray E. Strode
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 05/22/01
Posts: 4540
Loc: Brunswick, Ga. USA
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Humm,
Dak I finally brought up the link you provided. I had to type it into my Browser.
I looked and read the specs for the poorest sound card, the Montigo Turtle or something like that. Believe it or not the specs for that sound card are about twice as good as the average tape recorder from about 1948-50 of which they were recording audio that is still considered superb even today and are still avaliable today. The resulting records/Cd's.
Now, let's talk about the average circut/board in a piece of audio gear today. First lets dicuss the circut board itself. It is probably made by a factory that specalises in circut boards. Now let's look at the input and maybe the output connections/jacks. Most likely made by a different manufacturer. But now let's look at all those doodads on the circut board! There are capacators, resistors, micro chips on some, transistors, and maybe coils. Believe it or not all those doodads/components were made by a seperate manufacturer. All different. Probably none by the final Computer Brand.
Now let's talk one more time about audio circuts. Any audio circut that appreciably changes the sound would not be acceptable in today's equipment or yesterday's. Any good audio circut is expected to be like a straight wire, with gain. And the Specs on all the Sound Cards in the link you provided does that easily.
The circut designs, used today, in most circuts, were developed and perfected decades ago. Some Micro Processors in newer Computers are later developments.
No, there is no magic formula for a super secret sound card provides specs twice as good as all the others. But, you can spend more money, if you wish!
_________________________
Ray E. Strode
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#928030 - 10/13/11 05:32 PM
Re: Sound Cards
[Re: Ray E. Strode]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8077
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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Ray do not confuse what happens re analog sound with digital.....it is all about digital processing and converting analog to digital.....a standard card is just not quick enough or good enough to do that to the standards required for good music production or the other specialist apps we spoke about. Now you can say nay or harumph or quote irrelevant figures and specs that apply to different bygone systems all you want...it is fact that the standard soundchip put in 99.9% of all domestic PCs and laptops is no good for music production...so try it out and see for yourself....you experience the probs we have all experienced trying to use these basic cards...... do not take our word for it....we have tried hard to explain why and given enough evidence to prove why...you just do not listen.
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#928032 - 10/13/11 05:39 PM
Re: Sound Cards
[Re: Ray E. Strode]
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Dak Lander
Serious Contributor
Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 229
Loc: LoCal
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Keep in mind Ray, those sound cards in the comparison ARE built for recording as well as gaming. The sound chip in your computer is nowhere near them in specifications.
Any of those on the list will work as a recording interface but those with the better specs will work better for those who's requirements warrant.
That's the crux of the matter.
No on is denying that good, and even great recordings can be done with equipment that has specs that aren't as good. However, the normal Joe Blow does not have the room, the equipment or know how to use it, nor does he have the ear the folks who made those great recording have.
Keep in mind many of those great recording were done on using a great room for audio and using a $100,000 or better mixing board, $5,000 or better microphones, really good preamps, & etc.
As I alluded to earlier, if Joe Blow does a recording on his computer using the onboard chip he is going to spend additional money on outboard equipment or programs to clean up the signal, get it boosted to where it's usable, try emulate the right room and other potential effects and can, literally, spend hundreds of hours trying to get it to sound right.
On the other hand, while it is, in some ways, easier to get good sound using good equipment with good specs a bad sound engineer can make them sound like crap too.
_________________________
Get My Gear Here!"That ol' dog's so mean, he ain't done nothin' but eat nails and [naughty word removed] nickels ever since he was born"
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#928115 - 10/14/11 08:17 AM
Re: Sound Cards
[Re: Ray E. Strode]
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James Perrett
Serious Contributor
Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 54
Loc: Hampshire UK
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Humm,
Any audio circut that appreciably changes the sound would not be acceptable in today's equipment or yesterday's. Any good audio circut is expected to be like a straight wire, with gain. And the Specs on all the Sound Cards in the link you provided does that easily.
Toshiba don't appear to agree with your first sentence if the quality of the audio device fitted to my Satellite Pro laptop is anything to go by. This is the worst sounding audio I've ever heard from a computer (roughly cassette quality) and it even has the harman/kardon logo on it!
The thing is, the cards in the link are all specialist gaming soundcards which perform far better than the audio devices fitted to the average laptop or computer mainboard. Turtle Beach have a very good reputation and their budget cards are nothing like those fitted as standard to a typical computer. Their Multisound Card was the first computer audio device I owned back in 1992 and it was still sounding good when I last tried it a couple of years ago.
James.
Edited by James Perrett (10/14/11 08:21 AM)
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#928123 - 10/14/11 09:48 AM
Re: Sound Cards
[Re: James Perrett]
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Ray E. Strode
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 05/22/01
Posts: 4540
Loc: Brunswick, Ga. USA
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Well James,
Perhaps it was what you were playing thru your Toshiba rather that the system it's self. I have listened to some of the best speakers that could almost play the whole spectrum nearly up to 20K and they sounded terrible! Much the same with Condenser Microphones. They can capture every bit of sound even what you don't want! But Dynamic Mics can as well. Great Specs, terrible sound. Speakers that mask unwanted sounds, with lessor specs usually are more acceptable.
I had a pair of expensive speakers and listened to them for a while. They sounded great. Then I compared them to a pair of 2 way speakers i have with 8 Inch Wolfer and 1 inch Tweeters. I couldn't tell the difference! I returned the expensive speakers.
Today you can buy a DVD PLayer for maybe $30.00. And DVD Players need much better specs than a Sound Card. It's your money. Spend it however you want.
Edited by Ray E. Strode (10/14/11 09:49 AM)
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Ray E. Strode
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#928171 - 10/14/11 02:45 PM
Re: Sound Cards
[Re: Ray E. Strode]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8077
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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James I too have a Toshiba it is a Satelite C660....It is the poorest sound quality from any PC or laptop I have ever heard. It has Realtek High def soundchip......garbage. I have tried different drivers and configurations all to no avail so I bypass the card and run a Creative soundblaster external USB soundcard.
My Dell is so much better but even that is pretty poor compared to the soundblaster.
Ray I have the answer to your sound probelems.....get a hearing test....and read about music production...specifically about multi input recording and overcoming the probelms of latency.
Try this analogy.......Now a dial up modem is OK.... it works..... and it will download anything you want.....the specs say so. However nobody in their right mind would opt for one as a first option except maybe you.
I would prefer broadband...as it downloads in seconds what dialup takes hours to perform. Similar with a standard card V a proper music production soundcard/interface. Nobody who is serious about music production in their right mind would opt for a standard card as a first option....they do the job BUT not in the way we want.....Try comparison after being fitted with your hearing aid and a better technical knowledge and understanding of the problems associated with cheap standard soundcards.
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#928194 - 10/14/11 04:06 PM
Re: Sound Cards
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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Ray E. Strode
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 05/22/01
Posts: 4540
Loc: Brunswick, Ga. USA
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Hell no Jim,
I'm going to come to Edinburgh and the Beers will be on you. As soon as I can hitch up the Mules. You didn't think I was going to swim, did you? Now why did you buy a Toshiba when you could have bought a Victrola. Victrola's wind up, no batteries needed!
Edited by Ray E. Strode (10/14/11 04:07 PM)
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Ray E. Strode
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#928203 - 10/14/11 05:09 PM
Re: Sound Cards
[Re: Ray E. Strode]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8077
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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Naw Ray do not be silly they have a crap soundcard.
I have just had one of my laptops in for repair.....or should I say not be repaired cause the tech says it is beyond repair.....Coincidence or fate call it what you want.....it was a Dell and the standard IDT soundchip hard wired to the motherboard kept cutting out when I moved the laptop. Seems there is a crack in the circuit board and it would cost more than the laptop is worth to repair/relace it that is a common problem with bog standard stuff OK when working but prone to breaking down and no proper replaceable parts as everything is just part of the motherboard. I can run the PC with an external HD and it will work but might be unreliable so I am having to have a new laptop ordered.....as I use them from my gigs to work the sound and lights.....I will need a good quality reliable machine.
The expert suggests a business standard machine which can be made to my specs with a decent soundcard and graphics card....plus all the other bells and whistles I NEED.....gonna have to fork out around £1200....that is a lot of dollars.
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#928297 - 10/15/11 09:03 AM
Re: Sound Cards
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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Vicarn
Top 200 Poster
Registered: 11/16/10
Posts: 1112
Loc: UK
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This is very interesting stuff.
Thanks again all of you.
Jim,as my PC is just a few months old and has 3 firewire ports, I don't think I will be changing it for another 3 to 4 years at least so I may still go for firewire as it's supposed to be more stable.
After that I'll probably be hanging up my pistols and drinking cocoa in my slippers and watching tv.
Vic
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#928373 - 10/15/11 07:21 PM
Re: Sound Cards
[Re: Vicarn]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8077
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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Vic what is interesting is that some products evolve at a different rate from others......sadly the music production software stuff and music hardware always seem to be a couple of steps behind in their evolution than other electronic gadgets.
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#931009 - 11/03/11 03:25 AM
Re: Sound Cards
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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yann
Serious Contributor
Registered: 11/19/07
Posts: 989
Loc: france
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hey y'all,
just bought an EMU tracker pre USB. Sounds good to my ears. Came with light versions of Sonar, Cubase and Live. Trying Cubase at the moment. Good first choice?
Having difficulty with proper levels too. An electric-acoustic guitar directly plugged in and recorded with the preamp up to the first flashes of red light gives me a level a bit too low for me; and the normalize and gain functions make the system crash (I have Vista 32). Any tips?
Hope you have a great day,
Yann
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#931039 - 11/03/11 11:07 AM
Re: Sound Cards
[Re: yann]
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Ray E. Strode
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 05/22/01
Posts: 4540
Loc: Brunswick, Ga. USA
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Compatbility in different devices can get hairy at best. Sometimes reading the specs and requirements of different pieces of electronic equipment may be needed to see if one thing will work with something else. And sometimes the technical information included is not very good. One time I bought a Program that wouldn't work in the Computer I had it installed. After some phone calls, I learned that I dodn't have enough memory for it to work properly. Read the Specs to see if your device wil work with your computer.
_________________________
Ray E. Strode
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#931137 - 11/04/11 10:04 AM
Re: Sound Cards
[Re: yann]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8077
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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hey y'all,
just bought an EMU tracker pre USB. Sounds good to my ears. Came with light versions of Sonar, Cubase and Live. Trying Cubase at the moment. Good first choice?
Having difficulty with proper levels too. An electric-acoustic guitar directly plugged in and recorded with the preamp up to the first flashes of red light gives me a level a bit too low for me; and the normalize and gain functions make the system crash (I have Vista 32). Any tips?
Hope you have a great day,
Yann
I have not used this model so cannot help other than general info but these things are plug and play so you should not have any problems with levels provided you have selected the correct input option for your line in....you may be using a mic Lo setting instead of a line in Hi setting.
Your PC seems to be up to the job although Vista is the pits for music production...notorious for crashes and incompatability issues despite claims that a thing is Vista compatible. If problems with crashes continue you may have to reconfigure or find alternative drivers.....that can sometimes sort out these sort of bugs.
Here is a link to the driver download for your model and system
http://support.creative.com/Downloads/welcome.aspx
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#931572 - 11/07/11 07:24 AM
Re: Sound Cards
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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yann
Serious Contributor
Registered: 11/19/07
Posts: 989
Loc: france
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Thanks 
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#931611 - 11/07/11 02:03 PM
Re: Sound Cards
[Re: yann]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8077
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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No Problem....let me know if you get things sorted out...if you still have probs I will do my best to help....one tip is to try for a clean recording without any clipping so leave yourself some headroom to apply Fx and for mastering.....around -3db minimum is normal.....rather have a clean recording that can be boosted if levels are too low than a hot muddy recording at just below clip.
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#931684 - 11/08/11 06:25 AM
Re: Sound Cards
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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yann
Serious Contributor
Registered: 11/19/07
Posts: 989
Loc: france
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hey Jim!
Thanks a lot for your advice, very useful
I kinda sorted out the level problems. It was mainly a matter of finding the right monitoring level first, LOL! Can also use gain and normalize almost without crashes. Just have to stop playing before applying the fx. More than one task at a time and the computer says it won't be bothered, that's all!
Beginners' mistakes, LOL!
Now onto finding the right settings for EQs and dynamic fx: not as easy as I thought. I think i'll do everuthing flat and dry until i decide it's time for the final mix, and then think about the recording as a whole.
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#931756 - 11/08/11 05:27 PM
Re: Sound Cards
[Re: yann]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8077
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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Using Cubase is a very wise move.....albeit it has a big learning curve but mastering it is worthwhile in the long run...unlike some other programs Cubase is a non destructive recording and editing program.....in short everything can be undone and redone as nothing gets blown away or overdubbed permanently......each project has its own folder and each step in the process is stored in the folder so you will never lose anything.....it can be remixed re recorded or mastered anytime from any step in the process.
Tip one....Cubase requires a save folder when you start a project rather than like most programs when you want to save the finished project so always always always...set up a folder and NEW different file for each new project and make sure you date it, name it and know where it is....that way you can keep your stuff indefinitely and revisit it anytime you want. You can have many projects on the go and dabble as and when you want. I foolishly did not know this when I started and lumped everything into the one gigantic folder....big mistake.
Tip two always record dry on different tracks and only apply fx like reverb etc and compression etc as a last step before mastering.....cause if you decide to put in say another guitar part or harmonies then the whole thing will need re levelled and mixed.
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