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#901139 - 05/28/11 06:54 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Wyman Lloyd]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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Let's hear from the rest of you, not just in reply to Gordon, but also in how you or your peers compared or contrasted to Harriet? Who was closest to her views? Who was farthest from consensus. Both could be right or wrong, but I'd like to see you all look into the diverse viewpoints and zero in on defending or contrasting those various views and approaches?
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney 
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#901256 - 05/29/11 10:24 AM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Colin Ward
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 05/31/06
Posts: 4663
Loc: Saint Petersburg. FL
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I think that the responses to this lyric were pretty consistent and most people felt much the same way although they emphasized different points. There was support for the descriptive "show me" lines and a general realization that the song is too wordy and perhaps too sad for a song. Harriet noticed a problem with the use of "now", but I felt that it was an evolving now describing the unfolding current snapshots.
Z. Mulls has some interesting points about critiquing.
I have been disappointed that Harriet has consistently chosen lyrics with no music in the last few of these exercises. Seems like we are only looking at a third of a song.
I will take a shot at whittling this lyric down without losing much of the meaning:
Faded Blue
by Gordon Parish
Copyright Gordon Parish
How many times did I write her in class?
Laughed, made angels in the snow
Skated on the pond, behind the school
Our snowballs broke a window
Her yellowed fingers clutch her last smoke
I watch the clock marking the hours
Lost in the stale stench of cigarettes
Nursing a drink by wilting flowers
Alone together, nothing is new
And our memories faded blue
Stripped off our jeans to swim in the pond,
Laughing, naked in clover
How many times did I sing her my songs?
Never would it ever be over
I chuckle at Jay, she hears only silence
We lie in our bed, in the TV’s glow
Wrapped in the stale stench of cigarettes
Another day passes as the shadows grow
Remember the days when the arrow flew
And our blanket's faded blue
We strolled to the crickets’ serenade
Once again I kissed her goodnight
Skipped a stone and made a wish
Embraced to the faint starlight
The lamplight flickers as we settle to sleep
Flowers in our room never bloom
Nothing is left that is fun any more
We're shrouded in terminal gloom
Her skin has yellowed to a paler hue
And her soft lips faded blue
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#901268 - 05/29/11 01:32 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Colin Ward]
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Ricky Layne
Serious Contributor
Registered: 01/13/11
Posts: 325
Loc: Oregon
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Colin,
I am going to reply to Gordon when I have more time but I like what you came up with for the last verse. Especially these words:
lamplight flickers
flowers never bloom
terminal gloom
Actually I noticed Gordon came up with those words but they are more powerful to me with less wording. I think you did a great job with this verse.
Ricky
Edited by Ricky Layne (05/29/11 01:36 PM)
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#901589 - 05/31/11 01:37 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Ricky Layne]
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Samuel Harris
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 03/06/05
Posts: 3618
Loc: Burleson, Texas
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Here is the way I look at how any song develops: It starts with an idea. The idea attracts a kind of tornado that whirls around picking up bits of thought and imagery. The songwriter works the idea for a few minutes, hours, days or months and if he is lucky, the tornado sets his house down in the land of Oz.
Sometimes the idea is an observation about human nature. I think Gorden explained the genesis of his idea as he watched married folks go through the habitual motion of social interaction without actually interacting. Or as summed up in John Melloncamp's Jack and Diane, ".. life goes on Long after the thrill of living is gone"
Now if you really want a lesson in humility Gordon, compare what you have written with what John Prine has done in "Angel from Montgomery". In my opinion both you and John Prine have identified the same sad social tragedy. The difference may very well be that John Prine picked up more thoughts and images and then let his tornado blow away everything that wasn't essential. Let's call the house picked up by the tornado, the "idea"; and let's call the destination (OZ) the finished song. The tornado is your hard work and sub conscious. The energy by necessity is both destructive and constructive. It collects and destroys thoughts and images. Gordon, I think you need a storm to make the lyric work. You can get a lot of energy from pulling out the guitar or piano and hammering out the construction and destruction of the words you have written. Be prepared to let the storm take you to an unexpected place. That is part of the thrill of writing! And then remember, you have to make it personal. You cannot just be an observer. As you have been told by many in this thread, that approach has no heart. You have to make us care.
I hazard to guess that the very best songwriters have often exhausted every rhyme and thread of thought before they are "finished". Some of the best songwriters ride the "storm". Some are lost at sea to be sure; but all of the best are willing to take on the big wave and risk sinking; and then have the determination to pick up what is left and build again.
_________________________
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
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#901598 - 05/31/11 02:08 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Samuel Harris]
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Z. Mulls
Serious Contributor
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 314
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“Write what you know” goes the old dictum. As writers, we are always trying to imagine our way into a situation or relationship that we haven’t directly experienced. After all, you can’t just write about yourself, you’ll run out of material. You have to write about other characters, other lives.
But it’s tricky. You still have to find an emotional space within that world that feels authentic to you. In a sense, even when you are writing something unfamiliar, you still have to “write what you know.”
My dictum is that in writing, you have to tell the truth, but you have to lie about it.
That may be at the heart of why many of us were left cold by the lyric. It feels like Gordon is an observer in this lyric, rather than a participant. He saw this couple and wanted to write about their (apparent) alienation, but even though he is using first-person narration, he still feels distanced from the material.
It is said that King Lear is an impossible role because a young person can’t possibly understand it, and someone of the right age can’t possibly make it through the entire play without collapsing. I’ve been married 20 years and have *some* sense of these alienated moments – I might be able to find one of them, try to live within it to find the truth of this situation (using something that is a tiny bit true in my own life to imagine it as a larger truth in someone else’s).
A younger writer, and/or a writer who has not been through a longterm (ten years or more) relationship, is only guessing at these emotions, and is having to make things up.
I don’t know how old Gordon is, but he’s certainly a lot older than when he started with this idea. But I am getting a sense of being removed from the emotional center of the story, the narrator’s emotions something of a cipher.
_________________________
ZMULLS.COM My Soundclick2007 Grand Prize Winner International Songwriting Competition Avatar Photo by Diana (used with permission)
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#901735 - 06/01/11 11:36 AM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Z. Mulls]
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Gordon
Casual Observer
Registered: 03/24/11
Posts: 39
Loc: Columbus, OH, USA
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Okay, back again…
… I wanted to make a post from home over the weekend, but it appears sometime Sunday I lost connectivity. Several other co-workers w/ work laptops lost theirs, too. We don’t know why. We actually got bought out by an international company and they’ve been “integrating” us this year… it isn’t always pleasant. But that has led me to returning to writing a bit as stress relief… something opposite from engineering, not as “exact”…
As I was writing on Friday, I thought that Faded Blue was potentially a good talking piece for a number of reasons based on my previous experience with it. I never had a tune in my head with this; I really wrote it as a straight poem, nothing more, potentially a piece that could be read aloud, maybe like a William Shatner performance theater kind of thing… or maybe I’m not necessarily helping my case there… but anyway, after I submitted it to the one contest, I printed all the entries and took them to my second-favorite hang-out bar after work one night to read through them all and get a feel for the whole batch, start sorting out how I would vote, but I also like to read my own “in the mix” to try to better “evaluate” it against the others, many of whom I know are much more experienced than I am.
So, then a woman sits next to me and asks what I’m doing. I try to explain it to her without sounding too odd, and not telling her I had written any of these… she asks to read a couple, and Faded Blue was like second in line… she hated it! She said it was terrible! Worst thing she’d ever read! Of course, I didn’t admit I’d written it at that point, I just said I’ll bear that in mind when I assess it. Then she said, “But don’t take my word for it, let my friend read it, she loves poetry and lyrics.” This other woman loved it! Said she sings in a local bad and she thinks it would make a beautiful, sad, sweet song. I probably should have admitted it was mine and seen if she really wanted to attempt to make it a song at that point, but of course I didn’t say anything. But I thought that maybe there was a song-like quality to it that I just didn’t really appreciate, so I thought maybe I’ll do better in the contest.
When the contest scores came in, Faded Blue was pretty much in the middle of the pack, with scores ranging from 4 to 10 on 10-scale… when I placed a follow up post, there was a lot of interesting discussion, verging on debate, about whether this was a pretty decent poem or potentially a lyric. I had one tremendous advocate who felt this could make a very good “piano piece” along the lines of Billy Joel’s “Captain Jack”… I’m a little more humble than that, but it was interesting to see the spread of opinion there, and again here – from niteshift’s “… some things just need to be thrown out and started over again” to MFB III’s (very timely and much-uplifting) “Great write… I for one enjoyed your work… and will help carry the cross of story songs amidst those raging at Golgatha…” (actually, I think MFB’s critique could be worked as a good lyric with just a little effort! Samuel (joe) Harris is right – a fantastically poetic critique!) And of course, many many comments in between.
And with credit to niteshift, my one select quote doesn’t do justice – niteshift appears to have tried valiantly, one of many, to set some sort of music to it… and struggled… and I sympathize, because I can’t either! Yes, Colin… sadly there is no music to this going through my brain…
So, in this case, is it lack of a consistent rhyme and meter? For this post, which I hope to get up at lunchtime today, I’ll try to concentrate on the rhyme… my struggles with this piece.. but for general conversation, for novices like myself… to rhyme or not to rhyme? That should be a discussion. When I took poetry class, rhyming seemed to be generally scorned…
Some suggest maybe I’m better off without rhyme at all, and part of me, the part that is more used to writing poetry… would agree. I’ve always been trying to put that hint of rhyme in this one for some reason, even when not looking at it from a lyric point of view… and it is interesting to see some suggesting I need a stronger, regular rhyme scheme, others saying to do away with rhymes (unless I install a stronger, regular rhyme, I believe is what they are going for – that the sparse rhymes to them stand out, and not in a good way)… to some who seem to disagree on a few specific rhymes – Harriet for example, called out “Once upon a time she used to smile/ perhaps someday it’ll come back in style…” as a line she liked; Samuel (Joe) Harris and Scott Campbell called it out as a line that seemed forced.
To be honest, that particular rhyme never grated on me the way some others do (and I think the commenters eventually hit nearly every one of them… songs-gongs; class-passed; glow-grow… S(J)H arris even pointed out a “laughed” in the first verse that comes off as a misplaced rhyme with “class” and “passed” – I never even noticed that one before!). Actually, Colin gave me a blanket, the second lines all seem a little forced just to get the rhyme… and I can see why… some I’m not comfortable with, others “seem” okay to me when read aloud… but it probably depends greatly on how it is read, and it may be easier to avoid that forced feeling in a “read” rather than a “sing”…
In the two lines…
“Once upon a time she used to smile
perhaps someday it’ll come back in style…”
I try to impart a little bit of the guy’s sense of loss and confusion and not knowing how to ‘get back what they had’… he remembers happier days, then kind of hopes that somehow everything will fix itself… but after reading many comments, I can see where the guy may seem more like he doesn’t care, or that these lines are attributing some blame on “her”…). I try this also with:
“it seems there’s something I used to say
Maybe I will again someday”
S(J) Harris patted me on the back for the first, but scolded me on the second..LOL… I hit the rhyme, for better or worse, but maybe fall just short of the sense of confusion again… he remembers better times, happier times… remembers maybe when he used to say things to make her laugh or something… but again just doesn’t quite have the gumption or nerve or energy or whatever to take that step to engage… perhaps there, I have more opportunity to hit the emotion and improve a sense of sympathy/empathy for the narrator…
I’ve actually been through dozens of alternatives for my opening two lines… and never been completely comfortable. But this discussion has led me to try to think back to why I wanted that occasional rhyming “couplet” to begin with… I believe it relates to me thinking of it as a possible piece to read aloud… it’s kind of long, at 350 words… the rhymes are kind of like memory devices to help me keep track of where I am.
Maybe the take away on rhyming here is that for a more commercial, conventional lyric, having a consistent rhyme scheme is pretty standard/important. Some song lyrics may not rhyme at all, but if someone like me, who doesn’t play music, and might be looking at trying to attract a musician for collaboration – not rhyming, or having an unorthodox rhyme scheme, is likely to limit potential interested musicians… so Billy Joel can pretty much do what he wants… but an unknown freelance lyricist will have to work extra hard, or have written something obviously brilliant in other ways, to find that musician…
Okay... now i have to make an unscheduled car towing call... ugh... wasn't counting on that... the universe seems to be agin' me right now...
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#901746 - 06/01/11 12:34 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Gordon]
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Z. Mulls
Serious Contributor
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 314
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Gordon, just a quick comment about rhyming. There are no hard and fast rules, and your song can be done just about any way -- no rhymes, sparse rhymes, sort-of rhymes, near rhymes or perfect rhymes.
The takeaway is that you should be consistent. When you start a song with a perfect rhyme, the ear starts listening for more of them. You are sending a false signal by starting with a strong rhyme, and then doing more blank verse.
Even in a "no rhyme" song, it's good to slip a couple in, because in a song (unlike a poem), it helps lock down the ear, clicks a musical phrase in place. It's part of your signposts to the structure.
_________________________
ZMULLS.COM My Soundclick2007 Grand Prize Winner International Songwriting Competition Avatar Photo by Diana (used with permission)
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#901757 - 06/01/11 01:23 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Z. Mulls]
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yann
Serious Contributor
Registered: 11/19/07
Posts: 989
Loc: france
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Hi Gordon,
and thanks Harriet for your insight!
I think it's kinda hard to just forget about something you've worked on for a long time. but in this case it's necessary.
I'd write a few lines, just a synopsis for the story you want to tell.
Then ONE line that sums up the most important thing about it you want people to remember after they've forgotten everything else.
Then make some kind of storyboarding, defining what you're going to say and which picture is going to say it. And put some order in the different pictures.
Then - and only then - WRITE the damn thing. 2 lines at a time, rhymes and all, from the top to the bottom, WITH the music at the same time, or at least some rhythm (so you can scan your words as a talking piece, but with more regularity).
Asking yourself after each couplet: is the story moving forward? is it clear enough for an unattentive listener not to tune it off?
Not trying to be a writer. Just telling the story so it's interesting ('relatable' is often a synonym here). It's not about being clever and having people say you're a good writer. It's about having people say wow, this is a story I've enjoyed listening and I want to listen to it again and again.
So, Gordon, if you're in for a major rewrite - or maybe you'll want to write about some other subject, that's fine too - you'll have to do one of the most difficult things on earth: trash something you've spent hours on 
Just my thoughts at the moment. I don't have a lot of time on my hands right now, so I won't rewrite my post and I know my first drafts always read kinda preachy, like you should do this and shouldn't do that. Hope you'll read it like I wrote it, that is with more of a 'maybe you could try this approach and see if it works for you'.
Hope you all have a great day :-)
yann
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#901804 - 06/01/11 06:59 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: yann]
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Samuel Harris
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 03/06/05
Posts: 3618
Loc: Burleson, Texas
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Gordon,
I didn't mean for my "compliment sandwich" to have a rock it in! When you told us this wasn't even a song lyric and said you don't write music, then I understood where you were coming from. Your "tornado", meaning your creative energy, did pick up a lot of thoughts and imagery. You have been told, correctly I think, that you have done well what a lot of good songwriter do well, which is to show instead of preach. But just like a Shakespearean sonnet or a Japanese Haiku have deliberate confinements, a song has confinements that you have yet to put your poem through. One thing a confinement accomplishes is to force the poet or the songwriter to get to the point. The brain is forced to find solutions, and song form confinement causes the writer to focus and shape. There is a lot of subtly going on in even very simple songs. The interaction between the word and the music in infinitely complex. This is where the magic happens. Ask Harriet who has written hit songs. I bet there was a breakthrough in every one of her songs where the confinement of the song form led her to her eventual hit. Until you confine your poem to the form of a song, you will only partially discover what the potential of your ideas are.
I have mentioned that John Prine made the same observation as you have done. He could have generalized about the human tragedy in his song "Angel from Montgomery" but, to paraphrase what poet William Blake wrote, John Prine revealed the "world in a grain of sand". It is the minute detail of everyday life revealing a greater truth that pulls on your soul with an honesty that is nothing short of breathtaking. Notice right out of the gate Prine gives us the unmistakable point of view.
Angel from Montgomery- John Prine
I am an old woman, named after my mother
My old man is another, child that's grown old
If dreams were thunder, lightning were desire
This old house would have burnt down, a long time ago
Chorus
Make me an angel that flies from Montgomery
Make me a poster from an old rodeo
Just give me one thing that I can hold on to
To believe in this living is just a hard way to go
When I was a young girl, well I had me a cowboy
He weren't much to look at, just a free rambling man
But that was a long time, and no matter how I try
The years just flow by, like a broken down dam
repeat chorus
There's flies in the kitchen, I can hear 'em there buzzing
And I ain't done nothing, since I woke up today
How the hell can a person, go to work in the morning
And come home in the evening, and have nothing to say
repeat chorus
Here is a very young Bonnie Rait singing Prine's song (1974). My favorite version was Rait and Prine doing a duet on Austin City Limits a few years ago. It is clear she understood the song better when she was older. A few more years flowed by.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhe3vb0z7mY
_________________________
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
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#901808 - 06/01/11 07:08 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: yann]
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Gordon
Casual Observer
Registered: 03/24/11
Posts: 39
Loc: Columbus, OH, USA
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Okay, i think i've worked out a workaround from home. seems to be a slow slow connection...
so, i will attempt to follow up briefly because i haven't had a good chance to catch up on the more recent posts. But i see Brian has challenged us, and by that i mean you guys... to follow up more with comparing critiques.. particularly with respect to Harriet's... how did yours compare with hers...
One thing i like about creative writing is there is no absolute correct answer... there's always exceptions and i see that Z. Mulls has commented nicely on my comments/questions about rhyming... and i think maybe he has hit something squarely on the head with me on this - maybe the reason i've gone through a dozen alternative opening pairs of lines on this poem/lyric and never been happy is that it's hitting me odd too that i am insisting on starting with that rhyme and then just spacing them in like speed bumps through a subdivision the rest of the way.
i also struggled with meter. as a poem, i didn't worry about that so much, and even intentionally put in some "filler words" as S(j)Harris commented "but for now" and even my "perhaps, someday" - which adds a couple syllables to that line relative to its counterparts... because i envisioned it as a read poem, and those served as sort of commas... pauses, hesitation that i thought could express confusion and regret rather than insensitivity... but again... wordiness in a lyric... maybe bigger than in a poem... (now, i have a habit of throwing in too many 'filler' words normally... it isn't always intentional, but in this case, at least a few of them actually were deliberate).
With regard to scrapping or major rewrite or mostly good - this maybe is a good topic for you guys to kind of discuss and compare your thoughts to Harriet's as well. Seems to me that her critique was kind of middle of the road - it wasn't scrap it and start over... it certainly was not MFB III's wonderfully uplifting encouragement... but i took it as... i definitely should look at some structural changes to make it more songlike (meter and rhyme) and i need to instill a little more empathy for the narrator there... try to strengthen him a little... make it clearer that he's not cold, mean or insensitive..
By the way, i think it worth mentioning, whether intentional or not, it seems to me everybody was pretty good at a form of Harriet's "critique sandwich"... nobody really left me feeling crushed... no Simon Cowell's here, i don't think... there seems to be some general agreement for example that i do imagery pretty well... i guess if i had to say something "positive" about my writing would be that i try to "paint pictures" and kind of let the images leave an emotion in the reader... No, Scott and others, this isn't intended explicitly to be an anti-smoking lyric... for some reason i identify cigarettes with sadness and loneliness... i use smoking images a lot when i want to paint the "sad" picture... Ronnie James Dio had his characteristic "rainbows" symbol... the unknown Gordon Parish has his cigarettes... lol...
and by the way Tampa Stan... this IS one of my happier ones! Guess i need to work on that too!... lol...
but it would be some significant effort to get that meter down at the least, i will say... but i see Wyman and Mackie have posted comments with suggestions on their opinions how to get there... and Jean Bullock got me thinking about ways for a more major rewrite to try to get a more conventional chorus... and i note some differences of opinion on whether i have a chorus going or not... and Harriet commented on that too, i see... and Yann seemed in between - recognizing a "chorus" but suggesting strengthening that i still need to weigh... (yeah, another difference from poem to lyric - hitting that hook?)
... but as Brian suggests... maybe a direction of discussion here, again, not necessarily all about me here, is ... with the critiques.. what did Harriet zero in on compared to board members...
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#901813 - 06/01/11 07:34 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Gordon]
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Gordon
Casual Observer
Registered: 03/24/11
Posts: 39
Loc: Columbus, OH, USA
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OH yes - i should have said, thank you S(J)H for the Angel from Montgomery reference. i like it when people bring up similar lyrics, and have sort of "learned" to do that myself... i am not familiar with the song, but i like the lyrics and it is a good example for me! very short!
(one of the things i've realized is that many of my favorite bands have very long songs... so when i think i want to write something in the style of Pink Floyd, or Marillion, or Dream Theater... well, they got real long songs... if i can read a 400-word poem in 4 minutes, doesn't seem so long. when i look at some of those 8-12 minute rock songs, though... some are kind of long in lyrics, but not all... many are still only 200 words or so... they just spend a lot of time on instrumentals!)
The one that Jean's post got me thinking of was Terry Jack's "Seasons in the Sun"... a 400-word marathon tear jerker, but i don't think anyone could be unsympathetic to that singer... nor think it was overly sentimental... hmmm... and interesting a-a-b-b-b rhyme scheme... don't see that everyday!
"Goodbye to you my trusted friend
We've known each other since we were nine or ten
Together we've climbed hills and trees
Learned of love and A B C's
Skinned our hearts and skinned our knees.
Goodbye my friend it's hard to die
When all the birds are singing in the sky
Now that the spring is in the air
Pretty girls are everywhere
Think of me and I'll be there
We had joy we had fun
We had seasons in the sun
But the hills that we climbed were just seasons
Out of time......"
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#901850 - 06/02/11 12:49 AM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Gordon]
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MFB III
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 08/18/10
Posts: 2698
Loc: ohio
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In regards to Harriet's critique, she chose to end on a positive note, requesting that you rework the song/poem/ slash-rhyme/prose, and not give up on it because it held so much potential.
Much like various famous paintings, by world renowned artists have been studied and the researchers found 3 to 8 other paintings hidden beneath the one that became famous. Artworks that had been painted over, in search of perfection.
Much like poor Edgar Allen Poe who struggled and suffered for recognition in his day, but now is a household word forever for his works.
I have over 4,000 poems and 300 or so songs that I could sit over and ponder and rework them all until I am frail and eighty, and I do spend much time on many.
But I still maintain a body of raw work, and publish a lot of it in newpapers, and sing a lot of it in cafes, in an imperfect form, because there is a message in many of my writings that needs to be heard.
And perhaps 200 years from now some of what I created will be cherished and appreciated.and perhaps not.
But fame is not my driving force, it is instead the marvelous chance to have a voice in a world inhabited by so many mimes. It is a cry out to the silent majority, that choose to hold their tongues rather than another's attention.
I write because it is "right" for me, I am not that concerned with what others are left with when they read or hear it.
It is verbal and printed art, and yes I have seen others moved by it, and that moves me to write even more. But it is the sheer joy of writing that propels my mind and pen.
I have stood at the wall and read works on war, that made hardened veterans weep. I have sung songs about racism, Such as my solo's of "What color is God's skin," that boldly claims God's skin is black, brown, yellow, it is red, it is white...every man's the same in the good Lord;s sight.... and watched the guilty hang their heads in shame.
There is incredible beauty in telling a story, or moving souls to ponder a tragic situation, or a joyous moment in the world.
You need to find a place for this work, and either let it be simply story of two lovers growing old, or re-work it into a marketable, abbreviated, synopsis of two long and tragic lives reaching their halceyon days....and nearing a conclusion.
Harriet saw potential in it, but it has to meet the shortsighted, and carbon copied formulas of mass produced music. Otherwise no record producers will give it a second thought.
But if you were per say to send it to a senior citizens publication, it would have a much more appreciative audience... or even a lonely hearts club publication. It might require a bit more hope at the end for such publications though. Folks tend to lean heavily on hope, and a chance to change the situation no matter how grave it becomes.
You should study your own heart and see what the true purpose for this work truly was, and then see to it that it reaches that goal.
Perhaps this critique column that is now two pages long was the perfect venue for your poem/song, many have learned much and spoken even more over your work.
This then might be its pinnacle, or its birthplace, the rest is up to you.....Godspeed.~~~MFB III
Edited by MFB III (06/02/11 08:50 AM)
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#901901 - 06/02/11 11:21 AM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: MFB III]
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Ricky Layne
Serious Contributor
Registered: 01/13/11
Posts: 325
Loc: Oregon
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Hello, finally getting back to comment.
As far as critique goes I felt pretty good about adding something to the discussion that could be helpful but it really echoed what most others had already said. Since then I have actually "read" Gordan's lyric as a poem out loud and it stands up quite well in that forum imo. From Harriet's critique I did not notice the "now" issue myself until she mentioned it. I think I understood where Gordon was going with this, just a little time was passing but it was all still in the "now". Maybe "today" or "these days" would work better? I dont know. I think for me it felt good to contribute to this great idea and try to learn from it.
I had mentioned Dan Fogelbergs song "Same Old Lang Syne" as a song that this reminded me of. Is that a good way to critique? I know it kind of helps me when someone mentions a song that my music reminds them of and sometimes I am surprised at who they say I sound like. The reason I thought of Fogelbergs song is that to me it is a song about life, or better yet reality. I like these type of songs and they move me the most. Not overly sad and certainly not real happy, just real. Some look at Fogelbergs song and think he wished he had married/got with his ex lover but I personally don't look at it this way. It was an experience that just hit him hard emotionally and made him wonder "what if". We all wonder "what if" sometimes and it doesn't mean we would change a thing. Could be a bad day or just a bad moment for us...
o.k enough about that song. Another song that Gordons reminded me of is a song by Death Cab for Cutie "What Sarah Said". What did Sarah say? "Love is watching someone die". interesting lyric to me and I still don't quite "get it" but it sure makes me think! (saw these guys in concert last Friday night. Some of their lyrics/songs are great and some I don't like so much.)
I like a lot of the pictures and lines in Gordons poem/song. If I were to do a rewrite I would first:
Highlight the lines that repeat the same thought ie:
"pond behind the school"
"stench of cigarettes"
Those 2 thoughts you mention 3 times each. How many times do you say "faded blue"? (3)
What are you trying to say? What is REALLY important to get across to your listener? I can see why we wanted to know the significance of the pond or if this is an anti-smoking song and I don't think these are the points you are trying to get across!
It's o.k. to repeat stuff but you better hammer us with the chorus or hook line at least a few more times. Then we know what the song is about the first time we hear it without any doubt.
I do also like the suggestions of making more then one song out of this. I would keep this song as an idea and might steal some of the lines for other songs that I am writing. This is not always a comfortable thing to do but it may get this song back to more of a skeletal form and force you to rewrite it. Of course this could also blow it up forever! But the benefit would be that these visuals could be used in at least 4 or 5 other songs.
I like the rhyming scheme discussion a lot. That may be the hardest thing for me personally because I read some of my rhymes and think they sound stupid. Too simple or obvious. Then I change them and think "you are trying to be to too cute" with that one. So rhymes can be tough and sometimes you have to live with less then perfect.
Gordon, I hope you will continue with this song or at least the idea of it. I have ideas of what I would do as stated but do not consider myself much of a songwriter yet so please take my comments with a grain of salt. I have learned many things about songwriting in the last 3-4 months and much of it from this site.
I am hoping to read through all the older lyric/mp3 critique posts as there has to be a wealth of info there!
Thanks Brian for this forum. Great idea and I am looking forward to the next one.
Ricky
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#902016 - 06/03/11 08:04 AM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Ricky Layne]
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Gordon
Casual Observer
Registered: 03/24/11
Posts: 39
Loc: Columbus, OH, USA
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I think last night and this morning i got caught back up with the comments... keep them coming, not just "for me" and i'm liking this... but i see Ricky Layne's post that rhyming discussion is helpful to him!
I think we're in similar places there, Ricky! When i took poetry classes, it seemed like rhyming was sort of a stigma... if i rhymed something it would usually seem like they considered it "bad poetry"... but i wrote some lyrical poems with rhymes that i kind of liked, but thought they're probably just bad poems. Now, trying to write lyrics, i feel self-conscious every time i rhyme, and maybe in this one, i'd actually be better off not trying to rhyme... well, probably best off for a commercial song lyric to rhyme more consistently/rhythmically, but you know what i mean.
Thanks for the Fogelberg ref, too, Ricky... i do appreciate when someone points out similar-ish lyrics for reference or as a pointer... when someone says "this part reminds me of Brown-Eyed Girl" - obviously that is very flattering because it is a great song, so to hit even one line reminiscent of that is pretty cool. And to read "Angel from Montgomery" or "Same Old Lang Syne" is "humilifying" but obvsiously those guys are great at what they do... i'm an amateur... i can learn from them. I was working a lyric for an on-line contest two months ago, thought i would try a Mumford & Sons style... finally got it ready to go, i thought it was good, much like them... then i played like 6 M&S songs in a row while i read mine and i thought, "man, i stink. this isn't like Mumford and Sons at all!"
But, don't worry Ricky, i know i'll keep working this... might keep a form like this one (seems i do need to work on empathy for the narrator even as a poem, tho) as a true poem (someday if i ever have the nerve, maybe a readable poem - i like the "signposts" comment by Z - that's exactly why i put the seemingly odd rhymes in here, i feared there was no way i would ever memorize 350+ words), and maybe try to take some of these elements and suggestions here and re-work a truer lyric...
thanks for the line suggestions, colin, i find it hard to believe i didn't try to work "hue" in there... i like that word.
MFB - another wonderfully well expressed post, thank you! Geez... in my notebook i've got maybe 20-25 poems, only two true attempts at lyrics from the ground up.... a handful of short stories... and 2 short comedy skits i wrote in college (there's some happier ones there, Tampa Stan!)
and SJH... yeah, write what you know, but if you're like me and don't know much, it doesn't leave me with much! LOL!
Z - your comment on me being 'distanced' from the narrator in my attempt to write it - like i did first person but was still a cold observer ... this reminds me of something i read AFTER i posted: the article warned against having passive lyrics/characters... not to be confused with passive voice, but the author had indicated that passive CHARACTERS could be met with a lot of confused or unsympathetic listeners... that there was a good chance that listeners would just not like a passive character - even a flawed character that is active is more likely to be empathized with.... so i thought, "oh, that might be a problem here... and actually with a lot of my characters." This guy is passive, as passive as can be... and my reactions to this poem (I have a hard time calling it a lyric) have ranged across the board! Ricki Bellos sees no sadness in this man - which means i didn't connect that strongly enough... maybe i am trying to be too subtle by half, maybe i don't have that right personal perspective... keeping it too asceptic... too gray... too analytical? The guy being passive, i think is leaving so much in the air for you readers that depending on your mood, time of day, background... i mean, a very sensitive and caring person could be like "what the heck is wrong with this guy?
A lot of my poems, i would say i attempt to be like a painter... put up a picture, set a scene, a tone, and let readers bring their own perspectives as to what lies underneath... this one reminds me of that Seinfeld episode when jerry's girlfriend paints the portrait of Kramer... at the end, the elderly couple are studying it... the woman is fascinated and intrigued by Kramer... the man is repulsed and disgusted...
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#902061 - 06/03/11 02:52 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Gordon]
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Ricky Layne
Serious Contributor
Registered: 01/13/11
Posts: 325
Loc: Oregon
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Just wanted to make a quick reply to your last paragraph.
I too like to let the listener make up their own pictures/perspectives to songs as I am sure many do. A thing that I have realized over the last few months is that it really depends on what type of song you are writing. If you are looking to write a country song it seems better to spell everything out and make sense of every line. Have a complete story. I think folk music is similar but maybe just a LITTLE less so. Then you get to rock/pop and it does not matter nearly as much. I grew up on pop/rock songs so I think my mind tends to go that way but I am learning to write a better lyrics and stories by examining country lyrics. I feel somewhat caught in the middle with some of my songs.
I think either way I have learned you have to spell things out succinctly and quickly no matter what or your song just loses interest.
I am a painter but only a house painter. Not really considered art!
Anyway...Carry on.
Ricky
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#902470 - 06/06/11 12:18 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Ricky Layne]
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Samuel Harris
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 03/06/05
Posts: 3618
Loc: Burleson, Texas
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and SJH... yeah, write what you know, but if you're like me and don't know much, it doesn't leave me with much! LOL!
"Write what you know" may be good songwriting advice but I don't think I said that. What I believe is that you have to "connect" with the listener which should be obvious. You can do that in a serious way or can do it playfully. But something about your song must "hook" the listener. It may not even be lyrics at all! Here are some "hooks" that I recognize: a "clever" rhyme; a guitar riff (think Pretty Woman) or a good story line(think "The Gambler"). Now the Gambler is a song without a lot of musical hooks so it is a good one to study. It it loaded with a variety of hooks beside the compelling story line. There are too many to discuss in this forum because you could write an essay around each one of them. If you just took the the last part of the song you hear: "Somewhere in the darkness, the gambler he broke even". The writer could have simply said he died. But what he did was to phrase the information, which concludes his story, in language that connected with his theme. That doesn't happen by accident. It is just great songwriting. Did the writer have an intimate knowledge of his character and his world? Probably not. He certainly did apply his knowledge of human nature to the song but really the song is an example of the "craft" of songwriting applied masterfully. That is why I think every aspiring songwriter should study it even if all he does it write Rap.
I hope I don't insult anyone when I say this but my honest opinion is that anyone who has the ambition of becoming a songwriter and has not studied the "form" of songwriting; or has not listened studiously to, and critically analyzed hit songs, has a near zero a chance of writing a hit. And if you don't sing, don't play and can't write music, either learn to do it or team up with a trusted co-writer who does because a song is, without exception, signed sealed and delivered by musicians.
_________________________
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
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#903383 - 06/12/11 06:15 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Samuel Harris]
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harriet schock
JPF Mentor
Registered: 12/01/01
Posts: 102
Loc: L.A., CA 90036
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Just back from New York. Not sure if this is closed, but I wanted to say I agree that music is so very important to whether a song has emotional impact and whether the lyric is working. Colin Ward had a problem with my choosing lyric only. I was able last time with Dayson's song "Everwinding Road" to have a melody with it, so not sure how you got the idea I keep choosing lyric-only examples. I always try to find melody and lyric so keep submitting and it'll be easier for me to find one each time.
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#903554 - 06/14/11 03:28 AM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: harriet schock]
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Dayson
Serious Contributor
Registered: 08/01/06
Posts: 277
Loc: San Diego California United St...
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Yeah I was wondering myself how Colin came to that conclusion....
Thanks again Harriet for all the fantastic mentoring that you give us!-Dana
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#907542 - 07/09/11 04:27 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Dayson]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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Okay.. this one is now closed. Thanks to everyone who contributed to this and of course to the lovely and talented Harriet Schock for her sage advice! We hope to start the next one soon!
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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