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#898515 - 05/16/11 06:22 AM
Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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Hi Folks,
I am so pleased to have this amazing program back for May!
This week's pick by Harriet Schock for the Mentor Critique is Gordon Parish's "Faded Blue" Lyric. She will be posting her critique on May 24th (give or take), so starting now we'd like to get all of your critiques on this. Remember, lyrics/mp3's are not chosen on what is best or worst, but rather what will make for an interesting educational discussion of what was done well, what can be improved and basic building blocks for writing strong lyrics and songs. Please jump in and then once Harriet posts, see if you noticed the same points.
Thanks again to Harriet and everyone who has already participated. If you didn't get chosen (or didn't enter) and would still like a Professional Critique by Harriet Schock, or take a class in person or one of her on-line courses, please check her website at http://www.harrietschock.com.
For now, let's hear your thoughts on Gordon's entry! Remember that Gordon should not post a response until AFTER Harriet posts her critique. After that, please join in the discussion!
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Faded Blue
by Gordon Parish
Copyright Gordon Parish
How many times did I write her in class?
It seems so clear; could so much time have passed?
Once we laughed and made angels in the snow
Tossed snowballs at icicles, breaking a window or two
Skating on the pond out behind the school
Catching each other whenever we slipped
Now I watch the hands of the clock marking the hours
While I nurse a drink amidst our wilting flowers
And her yellowed fingertips cling to her day’s last smoke
Once upon a time she used to smile
Perhaps someday it’ll come back in style
But for now we just sit here, each alone
Immersed in the stale stench of cigarettes
And our memories faded blue
How many times did I sing her my songs?
I wonder between the clock’s hollow gongs
Once we laughed and ran barefoot in the grass
We rolled in the soft clover, searching for a little luck
Racing to the pond out behind the school
Stripping off our jeans to probe its cool depths
Now we lie in our bed, basking in the TV’s glow
Another day’s passage marked as the shadows grow
Leno makes me laugh, but only silence leaves my lips
It seems there’s something I used to say
Maybe I will again someday
But for now I’ll just lie here quietly
Wrapped in the stale stench of cigarettes
And our blankets faded blue
How many times did I kiss her goodnight?
Embracing underneath the faint starlight
Once we strolled to the crickets’ serenade
While holding each other’s hand, the warmest security
Passing by the pond out behind the school
Pausing to skip a stone and make a wish
Now in the silence of our room, flowers never bloom
And gray clouds gather here, enshroud us in their gloom
The lamplight flickers low as we settle down to sleep
I wish there was more that could be done
It seems there’s nothing left that’s fun
So I turn to whisper in her ear
But notice her pale skin so much paler
And her soft lips faded blue
---------------------------------------------
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney 
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#898544 - 05/16/11 08:51 AM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Z. Mulls
Serious Contributor
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 314
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Guess I'm first. Want to put together my thoughts while my brain is fresh.
*************************************************
You want to write a song that contrasts the vibrancy of youth, to a faded relationship. You’ve chosen to write it in a series of double-verses – the first verse about youth, the responding verse about the age. The structure itself is getting in the way of your storytelling.
You’ve chosen to go with no bridge, and no chorus – only the ghost of a refrain (a phrase where the lyrics change but the melody is similar, always ending on “faded blue.”) So the song feels like relentless detail – a lot of stuff happening (or not happening) and that’s that. There’s no phrase or thought that sums up, or reflects, or sticks. Someone tells us a story but when it’s over we don’t remember much about it. This works in old folk ballads when the story is a clear narrative with a climax and conclusion -- you're writing around a long relationship, and I think you need to introduce those musical structures that help us go different places in the song.
I assume she’s dead at the end. It’s not 100% clear, but it looks like the intent is that he looks over and she’s dead. It’s kind of a “shock ending” and feels like a cheat. You don’t need to bludgeon us with it. If you want to poignancy of “she’s dead and I never said goodbye” you want to let us know she’s dead (“buried her last week, etc.”) and then introduce the memory of looking over and seeing her lips blue. Though I still think it’s a ghoulish and unearned ending.
The song is called “Faded Blue” but there’s not a lot of language about color and vibrancy. You may want to talk more in the “young” sections about color and light and brightness – find images that contrast to the dingy curtains and yellowing fingers. And “Blue” seems to be in your title just so you can do the thing at the end with the lips. Why not call it “Faded” and not trap yourself into that concept -- it will give yourself more room to work?
It’s a long stretch from the 16-year-olds in the first verses, to the 70(?)-year-olds in the echo verses. Maybe the young verses could progress? Go through life? First one is high school, second one is post-marriage, third one is middle age?
You use too many extra words. The lines are very very long and will be a mouthful to say and musically busy. You need to let the story, and the melody, breathe more. You should try to cut out 1/3 of the words in each line. A line like "While holding each other’s hand, the warmest security" (13 syllables) can be shortened to "Hold each other's hand, warm, secure" (8 syllables). Not every sentence needs a verb, preposition, definite article, noun and modifier. Lyrics need to be written with economy.
You wind up putting in filler lines like “nothing left that’s fun” and “it seems so clear” and “Maybe I will again someday” that don’t tell us anything but just take up syllables and phrases. Less language will say more.
You make an unusual choice with your rhyme scheme which winds up confusing and frustrating the listener. It’s OK to have a low-rhyme or no-rhyme song, or near-rhyme song. But you start out each section with a strong, definite rhyme, which signals the listener that you will be doing more of it, and then you drop it. We keep waiting for the final rhymes to click in place or for you to rhyme the title (“blue”) but you don’t.
There’s one concept you start to introduce but you don’t use it to full effect. You talk about cigarette smoke and fading – even after she dies, the smoke smell will linger for a long time. The relationship has faded but the smoke won’t – you could do something interesting with that.
There’s a lot more to say about individual lines (and awkward phrasing like “clock’s hollow gongs”) but your next rewrite should be to simplify the lines (fewer words, selected thoughts), create contrasts in terms of faded/vibrant and give some progression to the story in the second verse. And consider a chorus. I understand the story, but I’m not sure yet why you’re singing about it.
_________________________
ZMULLS.COM My Soundclick2007 Grand Prize Winner International Songwriting Competition Avatar Photo by Diana (used with permission)
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#898549 - 05/16/11 09:25 AM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Z. Mulls]
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Kevin Emmrich
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 8632
Loc: Crozet, VA
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Gordon,
Thanks for submitting a lyric to help us get to that magic number and congratulations on being picked. It is always nice if everyone loves your stuff, but don't be disheartened if it is torn apart (ha, ha). This is a critical exercise to see if we can find out what works and doesn't work -- and you are the laboratory rat here! I am not that good at critiquing lyric only stuff -- since melody and music has the upper hand in a good song for me. Of course great music that has great lyrics is what we really all strive for here.
It doesn't really read like a song lyric to me, more of a story, narrative type thing -- and a depressing tale at that. I realize that life is not all mid to up-tempo and positive (and I write as many "dead-enders" as anyone), but I never really got much of a connection with either person. ... and if you don't have empathy with either character, when you get to the end, it is just over.
Plus if you are not the "artist" here, who is going to want to sing this "life gone down the tubes" story?
I just read Z. Mull's review and I have to agree about using more colors in the story. For some reason those perfect rhymes in lines 1 and 2 of every stanza seemed too forced to me, so it took away from the impact of the story.
Blue was her favorite color
she told me in the notes
we passed in class
Blond was the color of her hair
red-hot was my desire
but that was way in the past
we made snow angels in the white, white snow
.... etc
(chorus)
But now everything is faded blue
etc, etc....
I am short on time for this. If I think of anything else, I'll come back and edit.
Kevin
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#898552 - 05/16/11 10:02 AM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Kevin Emmrich]
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yann
Serious Contributor
Registered: 11/19/07
Posts: 989
Loc: france
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Hi Gordon (and Harriet),
congratulations. I was chosen once for this discussion and I can tell you I never learned more about songwriting in such a short time than from everyone here chiming in 
Time's always a problem, so I hope no one will mind if I post only short thoughts as they occur to me. But I'll do it everytime I have the opportunity (and the impression I have something to say, LOL). Just my opinion, I certainly can handle being proved wrong!
First, this reads more as poetry than as lyrics. Doesn't mean it can't be sung or set to music. But you have to decide first who is your target audience. Small cultivated circles or the big crowd. You put in your text more rare and sophisticated words that can be found in any song chosen at random. To me, this level of expression and vocabulary belongs to the realm of poetry only (and I love poetry).
Secondly, 'too-long-iness': I agree lines could be shorter but I mainly think you'd have to cut something like 6 lines at the least, especially as you already have long lines and 8-line choruses.
Third: there should be less changes from one chorus to another (or it's not a chorus any more).
Fourth: I have to keep thinking on your hook, which I don't feel as very hooky right now.
I now have to take my kids from school, I'll be back later. I'm realizing I started with nits and didn't say anything about the good points. Don't think I have none, LOL!
Bye for now,
Yann
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#898570 - 05/16/11 12:11 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: yann]
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niteshift
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 12/17/06
Posts: 4053
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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Hey Grodon.
Well, hmm....... I read through it, tried to get a few chord progressions together and sing it. Re-read it.....and tried agian.
The hook works well, but everything in between just doesn't grab me.
A young couple meet when they are young, then they get bored with each other, and one dies watching television with smoke stained fingers. Is that it ?
I'm just not seeing a story here. And very little imagery to play with musically. There's a start and a finish but nothing in between. It's way too wordy, and would anyone ( apart from someone who wants to slash their wrists ) be bothered to listen ?
I know we're meant to critique for improvement, but some things just need to be thrown out and started over again.
The concept of "blue" is good, but everything else I believe, belongs in the "oops, bad mistake" bin.
Keep the concept, ditch the delivery.
cheers, niteshift
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#898588 - 05/16/11 12:43 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: niteshift]
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Scott Campbell
Top 10 Poster
Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 10861
Loc: Lakeland, FL, USA
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Hi Gordon:
Congrats on having your lyric selected for an in-depth critique. I'm not sure if you know this or not but the level of criticism in this forum is a couple of notches higher than in the lyric or mp3 forums - so please don't feel discouraged.
What I like about this: I like the imagery of the couple both when they are young and when they are old. Particularly for the young couple you have selected very vibrant "memories". For the older couple, the images you have selected seem pretty effective to me too, though they are, of course, more depressing. I like the concept of "faded blue" as well.
There are some things that didn't quite work for me though. Right now, all we seem to have is a contrast between now and then. Maybe that's enough - though my preference would be to have some more. I don't need every detail about what happened to make them the way they are - chances are, if they are like most in this situation, it is a bunch of little things, undetectable on their own, that added up. But I would at least expect a little bit of questioning on the narrarator. As is though, he doesn't appear to be particularly interested - he's just observing differences. In my opinion, this makes it difficult to latch onto these folks - to feel much empathy for them.
Another thing I can't figure out is whether this is supposed to be an anti-smoking song or not. If so, it seems a little too subtle to me - and I generally like subtlety. If not, the cigarettes are mentioned often enough that one starts to wonder if this is supposed to be an anti-smoking song.
Also, in my opinion, more of the lines should rhyme. I'm not trotting this out as a "rule" and I recognize that there are some songs that have few or no rhymes. But I don't think this is one that will work without them. If the listener is caught by surprise when a rhyme is expected and isn't heard (which would happen here because you use them in the opening lines of each section), they will be taken out of the song for a moment or two - which isn't desirable for any song.
As for the ending, it seems she dies. If so, it doesn't feel right to me. It has the feel of being placed for surprise or effect - but there is no emotional power to it. He doesn't seem particularly bothered by it - so why would the listener be?
Finally the line, "Perhaps someday it’ll come back in style" is one that I really like - but it doesn't feel right in this context. Maybe keep it for use in a different lyric....
Hey, these are all just opinions from other amateurs. I expect you'll get enough different ones that it will leave your head spinning. When I've been in this situation, I usually just focus on the ones that resonate with me and leave the others pass. I think you have the potential here for a powerful lyric - but only you can take it there. Good luck.
Scott
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#898602 - 05/16/11 01:31 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Scott Campbell]
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Dayson
Serious Contributor
Registered: 08/01/06
Posts: 277
Loc: San Diego California United St...
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Hi Gordon,
Thank you for sharing your song here and giving us an opportunity to share our thoughts on it.
When I first scanned through it my first thought was that it didn’t seem to fit what I believe is a “song form” meaning verses and lyrics.
It’s more like a short story, with repeated phrases at the end.
Along with the repeated beginning of “Now in” that let’s us know what’s the supposed to be the chorus is here.
That aside, I think you have some really descriptive story parts.
I like how you remember the good times of throwing snow-balls at icicles,
Growing up in Alaska made remember doing things just like that!
“
Now I watch the hands of the clock marking the hours
While I nurse a drink amidst our wilting flowers
And her yellowed fingertips cling to her day’s last smoke”
I really love how you describe how things turned out down the road,
Especially with the small details of her “yellowed fingertips” clinging
To her day’s last smoke” beautifully done!
I also loved this part of your story too, very detailed…
“Immersed in the stale stench of cigarettes
And our memories faded blue”
I love how you show time passing in a subtle way with the changing of the season…
The pond that was once frozen and skated over is now thawed and ready to for some
Great splashes!
This line “We rolled in the soft clover, searching for a little luck”
I really enjoyed, made me think back to when I was a kid searching for four-leaf clovers right before school.
The chorus’ are very strong and powerful but as I read through them and take the images in, I kept being distracted by thinking “how does this sing?”
Also I felt I wanted to really edit and whittle the story down to make it resemble more of a lyric than a story with paragraphs…
I would be curious to know how this would all sing. It seems you have some really good powerful descriptive writing here but needs more work on how to shape it into a song lyric that would fit a melody.
I wish you the best of luck in your writing!-Dana
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#898608 - 05/16/11 02:43 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Dayson]
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tim houlihan
Serious Contributor
Registered: 01/25/11
Posts: 215
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Hi Gordon--
Some of the imagery in this song was very good
I had real trouble figuring out the meter--
It is very depressing and if that's what you were after then you hit it out of the park, but if sad was what you wanted you went way too far--this is dark indeed--
I don't know why I should like this guy--
I never got the sense that he yearned for the happy day of yore so to speak--just that he realized that things weren't as playful as they were when they were young--there was no real sense that he ever loved her or her him--I think maybe it's because anytime something bright gets mentioned we are immediately reminded that they smell like stale cigasrettes and don't even talk to each other--if we could have time to get a picture of them being happy before we're brought around to the depressing part we might get a chance to feel bad for him when she dies in bed next to him while he's watching Leno--
you gotta make me like him and her and I just don't
That's my two cents worth
Tim
_________________________
As Neil says: Keep On Rockin' in the Free World!
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#898643 - 05/16/11 04:53 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: niteshift]
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Samuel Harris
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 03/06/05
Posts: 3618
Loc: Burleson, Texas
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There is a lot I like about what you have done starting with the title hook and the way you gave it new meanings in each verse.
I can imagine John Prine having similar feelings about alienation, as you have expressed, when he wrote Angel from Montgomery in 1971.
I'll just post the lyric and tell you what I like, what I would change, and my thoughts as I read through it.
Faded Blue
by Gordon Parish
Copyright Gordon Parish
How many times did I write her in class? (remember how poignant is was when Leann Rhimes sang "Probably wouldn't be this way" directly to the subject; especially at the end of the song when we realize the subject had passed away- something to consider here.
It seems so clear; could so much time have passed?
Once we laughed and made angels in the snow I like the image but "laughed" is a near rhyme with "class" and "passed" so it seems like a misplaced rhyme and just make me say Huh?
Tossed snowballs at icicles, breaking a window or two
Skating on the pond out behind the school
Catching each other whenever we slipped (if your imagery can make me feel an echo of "brown eyed girl", that's a good thing!
Now I watch the hands of the clock marking the hours
While I nurse a drink amidst our wilting flowers
And her yellowed fingertips cling to her day’s last smoke (startling image because I didn't expect it, but well done)
Once upon a time she used to smile (a good idea but it ended in a forced rhyme. I would give it more thought, maybe stay away from "smile" and use something to imply joy or contentment etc. If you pick a word that doesn't have a lot of rhymes, you may find yourself saying something you didn't exactly intend-
Perhaps someday it’ll come back in style
But for now we just sit here, each alone
Immersed in the stale stench of cigarettes
And our memories faded blue ("but for now" are filler words in my opinion. It is lyric real estate you might be able to add more imagery instead.
How many times did I sing her my songs? I think that is a good opening line for this verse. I would probably take a look at the rest of it and make sure you are re-enforcing the idea you have introduced with this line- that she lost her appreciation for his gift or the gifts they shared. You are covering the same ground as you did in the previous verse so you need to show here examples of how he appreciated her and she him; not more examples of good times they shared. For instance she loved his songs and he loved her generosity or childlike sense of wonder
I wonder between the clock’s hollow gongs
Once we laughed and ran barefoot in the grass
We rolled in the soft clover, searching for a little luck
Racing to the pond out behind the school
Stripping off our jeans to probe its cool depths
Now we lie in our bed, basking in the TV’s glow "Basking" is a word associated with pleasure, which is contrary to the mood you are creating. But "basking" is almost always followed by "sun" so the fact that they are "basking" in the TV glow could be a brilliant choice if you mean to say this couple is using the TV as a feeble replacement for the real thing (the sun). So maybe you know exactly what you are doing.
Another day’s passage marked as the shadows grow
Leno makes me laugh, but only silence leaves my lips
It seems there’s something I used to say Excellent chilling revelation that he has lost the impetus to share. This is a good summary of the whole relationship.
Maybe I will again someday. I'm not sure this adds anything. If it does, I don't get it.
But for now I’ll just lie here quietly
Wrapped in the stale stench of cigarettes
And our blankets faded blue
How many times did I kiss her goodnight?
Embracing underneath the faint starlight
Once we strolled to the crickets’ serenade
While holding each other’s hand, the warmest security
Passing by the pond out behind the school
Pausing to skip a stone and make a wish
I think this is the best verse development of the three. Each verse should add a new shade of blue. The first is "good times" together; the second shows the couples attributes and (lost)appreciation for each other; and the third shows the couple in relationship to the natural world. At least that is how I would identify the verses.
Now in the silence of our room, flowers never bloom
And gray clouds gather here, enshroud us in their gloom
The lamplight flickers low as we settle down to sleep
I wish there was more that could be done
It seems there’s nothing left that’s fun
So I turn to whisper in her ear
But notice her pale skin so much paler
And her soft lips faded blue
These lines have strong imagery, meaning and mystery. I'm not sure if I would change anything about them except whatever is necessary to put it to music.
finally,
I don't know if she is dead or if she is alive and I don't think I need to know for sure.
There is definitely sadness if not tragedy in this lyric even when we come to understand that it was probably time that undid this once thriving relationship. People will listen to a tragic song if you give them a little hope like Gorge Strait did when he sang "I hate everything". You have written a "real" lyric. I don't think there is anything phony about it. Have you accomplished exactly what you wanted? I don't know, but this is very promising.
Congratulations are getting selected. I have a hunch Harriet might just be able to help you develop some strategies to make it pack the most punch as a song lyric.
I enjoyed it. It was a pleasure to read.
_________________________
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
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#898740 - 05/16/11 10:56 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Samuel Harris]
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nightengale
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 03/17/09
Posts: 2505
Loc: Eugene, Or USA
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Hi Gordon,
I think you've got some great images and a real story of reflection, some depression, and wonder.
It's obveuosly not country so I think that limits many of our reviews. This calls into play how much we are able to open our minds to other writing styles, and to what the audience would be for this type of song, knowing that in movies in particular, there are songs for all walks of life, style, genre, etc.
I hear this as a mellow rock, that's just me.
I have very little time right now, but will be back in a day or two. For now I'll say that the wording should be condenced, alot could be changed to make it more conversational without taking away from your meaning, and things like the stentch of cigarettes, rather than repeated so much, could be referred to differontly in some of the lines, ( smell of smoke, tobacoo aroma) not great examples but what quickly popped off the top of my head.
I got things to say but no time so be back in a day or two.
I think this has a lot of deep thought and could be a great song!
Geneva
Edited by nightengale (05/16/11 10:56 PM)
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#898839 - 05/17/11 11:48 AM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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"Tampa Stan" Good
Top 10 Poster
Registered: 07/24/10
Posts: 26755
Loc: Tampa, Florida since 1973
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Congrats, Brother Gordon!
A very "Artistic" Lyric here...Longer-than-Pop Verses, Hook arrives..once..after 7 previous lines. Rhyme Scheme's consistent..it's the work of Someone Who Knows What He's Doing.
&..what He Does is set us up for a Romantic Look-Back in V1. "Catching each other whenever we slipped" is a Multi-Level observation/good ending for V1.
Because in Next V., the Young Flashback gets contrasted with TODAY: "Wilting flowers/yellowed fingers/used to smile/each alone/Immersed in the stale stench of cigarettes..(& The Hook Arrives.)" (This is gonna be a rough ride from Here-On-IN..ain't it????) ;-)>
Next V, Flashback Again to Happier-Times...then..
Longer V: "Leno makes me laugh, but only silence leaves my lips"...{A REALLY Good Line, Image-wise...tho the reference to Leno's gonna be tough IF he retires before this song gets cut.) More references to the Silent Treatment THIS Couple's NOW engaging in, & a nice slight Change in lead-in to Hook..keeps it Interesting.
There's no Bridge here, tho the next Short Verse, my mind seems to sing it UP a Register....&, again, it's a Flashback, with a QUESTION to open it up..(& grabs my attention pretty well!) Young Love gets covered from Songs-Sung to Skinny-Dipping...AND..yep...
We already know this Last Verse is gonna be a bit of a Drag:
"It seems there's nothing left that's fun"...& OK, Singer's Spouse is Artistically DEAD..in the very last couplet.
Good Writing..But not the Typical Love-Conquers-All Plotline that
somehow makes for a Good Commercial Song. I AM Entertained..but it's such a negative P.O.V. that probably hearing it Once...would be enough. (Maybe it's the Olfactory Imagery...VERY Effective...but we sit there awaiting the Stench..of Death..in the Last Reel.)
And..at my age...who wants to be reminded?
Good Luck with it Amigo...I'm impressed/look forwards to Your Happier Ones. Best Wishes & a Big Guy-Hug,
Stan
_________________________
I try to write For The Ages, yet I'm aware about the only 200-year-old Pop Songs that have survived are Nursery Rhymes....
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#898863 - 05/17/11 01:23 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: "Tampa Stan" Good]
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Colin Ward
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 05/31/06
Posts: 4663
Loc: Saint Petersburg. FL
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Gordon,
I just read your profile and introduction so will welcome you to the board as a new member first. You have jumped in with both feet and people will not be pulling punches in this exercise. Don't let that scare you away!
I will comment before reading the comments of others.
First the structure of the lyric - sections of 6 lines and 8 lines repeated three times. I don't know if one is a verse and one a chorus since the only repeated phrase is "faded blue" which is a refrain that appears at the end of each 8 line section.
Lines one and two rhyme in each section and lines 4 and 5 in the eight line section. Otherwise there are no distinct rhymes.
There are a couple of ways the rhythm makes sense....each line could be two measures of 4/4 time, or four triplets of 6/8 time. In either case, there seemed to be too many words/syllables in several places. One reason I usually don't review lyrics without music is that I don't know what the lyricist is hearing in his head regarding rhythm. What I perceive as defects could be fine with a different rhythmic structure that only the writer is hearing or feeling.
As far as the content of the lyric is concerned, each 6 line section describes the past, early in the relationship of the couple and each 8 line section describes the current situation as the relationship draws to a close and possibly ends. It is rather depressing, but is probably an accurate description of many lives.
The word pictures are vivid and meet the requirement of "show me, don't tell me". Some lines are better than others. The second line of each section is sometimes a bit forced in order to rhyme with the first.
In conclusion, I would describe this as a pretty good poem but a rather poor candidate for a song lyric. Obviously there is no accounting for taste and some people might want to hear this depressing story set to music, but I am not one of them.
Edited by Colin Ward (05/17/11 01:31 PM)
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#898916 - 05/17/11 06:36 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Colin Ward]
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yann
Serious Contributor
Registered: 11/19/07
Posts: 989
Loc: france
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Hey again!
Positive points :
- the imagery (show, don't tell) is quite good.
- And the attention to significant, meaningful details.
That in itself makes for us being interested in your text, in spite of other, less appealing aspects
Suggestion for a rope of hope: rewrite the chorus, LOL!
Imagine a different story, where someone just needed to be reminded of those fond memories to reawaken to life and love. Like, OK, we've recently become a bit faded, but do you remember this and that? Is that a sparkle I can see in your eyes now (sort of thing)?
The verses are already full of nice memories and visuals.
One more argument to rewrite that chorus: the verses don't really point to the hook.
I understand 'faded blue' as happiness gone. Writing to this hook would need allusions to the frailty of our condition in the verses: 'this is cool right now, but how long will it last, I don't know' allusions.
I understand you wanted a sharp contrast and produce a shock with the chorus. But the reader/listener could be mad at you for letting them hope for a nice story, LOL!
One last thing (for now): verse 1/chorus 1 say it all; subsequent verses and choruses don't really add anything new, just the same idea written differently.
Cheers, yann
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#898921 - 05/17/11 07:15 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: yann]
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Lee Arten
Serious Contributor
Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 678
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Unlike some posters I have no problem with the dark tone of the lyric. I also think that a tune could be written for it and a good singer (I have a lot of faith in singers, for some reason), could add emotion and color with phrasing, etc.
My problems come with the verses showing the early life of the couple. They work OK but, if I had written them I'd be going back to try and tighten them up. The line ending in "break a window or two" bugs me and I'd find some other way to say it.
_________________________
"No man but a blockhead ever wrote except for money." Johnson.
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#898937 - 05/17/11 08:15 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Lee Arten]
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Lynn Orloff
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/06/06
Posts: 5161
Loc: PA of the great USA
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Hi Gordon,
Faded blue is a nice change up from faded gray, almost as if the word blue has two meanings intentional or not. This is a rather dark/sad lyric of so much life/love gone up in smoke (pun intended). The fact that you focus on the cigarettes, stench and yellow fingers makes me feel your anger at her or the cigarettes which really are one and the same in reality. If death was taking her by no fault of her own you would feel more sympathy for her. These lines really got my attention:
Now I watch the hands of the clock marking the hours
While I nurse a drink amidst our wilting flowers
Now in the silence of our room, flowers never bloom
And gray clouds gather here, enshroud us in their gloom
How many times did I sing her my songs?
I wonder between the clock’s hollow gongs
I think lyrically you could make your Chorus' more distinctive from your verses. The verses describe things the two of you did and you continue to mention more activities in the Chorus, whereas I think it would be better if the Chorus had different material perhaps just relating to feelings. Seems like you mention school more than once and you only need to refer to that once.
Definitely could use some trimming in the right spots. I'd change the word "basking" to maybe "only light the TV's glow" and not quite sure about "probe" for a pond swim since probe sounds more like something a submarine/scuba diver might do, maybe
"racing to the pond (quarry) while stripping off our jeans,
crazy things we did while we were in our teens"
that way you show some progress in the timeline also.
Don't know whether to take this as an anti smoking lyric but it does send a strong message in that vein. Good luck Gordon with your lyric. Some real nice ideas here.
Best,
Lynn
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#898948 - 05/17/11 09:11 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Lynn Orloff]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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Outstanding job so far folks. For those who haven't weighed in yet, please don't worry about being wrong or that you aren't experienced etc. This is a learning session on how to critique a lyric and everyone has to start somewhere. Even if it's just a few observations or things you like or dislike, just add the "why" you like it or what might work better and you're there. Some really outstanding ones above!
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#898950 - 05/17/11 09:38 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Diane Ewing
Serious Contributor
Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 1120
Loc: Wayne, PA USA
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Hi Gordon,
You've already received some great constructive comments about your lyric and still have Harriet's ideas to look forward to.
I'm not sure why more of the regular posters haven't joined this
thread, but consider yourself fortunate that you will be getting
a professional to review your lyric and give you solid advice on it.
You certainly have a knack for creating pictures with your words!
I could "see" a lot of images while reading your lyric, which
means you show rather than tell.
I love the title, but if I had read the lyric only,
I don't think I could have guessed what the hook/title was.
I'm not sold on this lyric as a song for several reasons.
I think it's way too long to be able to keep a listener's
interest and the content is not something I want to hear or read about. If I were a singer who had to sing it, I'd have a panic attack over the thought of having to memorize the lyrics!
To me, there are lapses of focus. The first line of the lyric
reflects on class, but two lines later you're out in the snow.
The first line of the third verse is about singing songs, but
two lines later you're rolling in the grass and clover and
probing the cool depths of the pond. By the way, I think probing
is a bad word to have in a lyric.
I really love your idea of past/present reflection and
think you can do great things with this idea and your
talent for creating images with words. Keeping with the
past/present reflection idea, the words that really stood out
for me are "Memories faded blue." In my mind, that is a great hook!
Good luck with it!
Diane
_________________________
Diane Ewing
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#898970 - 05/18/11 12:54 AM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Diane Ewing]
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MFB III
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 08/18/10
Posts: 2698
Loc: ohio
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Your song is like an hourglass where the bottom holds what was and the top holds what's left....and the listener is left spellbound somewhere in between. It is the beginning of the end,
linked to the end of the beginning.
I saw many memories of my own played out in your sands of time, all trickling away...
It touches on the tenderness as well as the pain of growing old together, and gives one a bittersweet taste of what is swallowed in the process.
It is wordy, but then how does one describe life's erosion without such flowing words. All the promises and predictions of youth become the premises of despair and the addictions of brief escape from the burden of what was not fully realized. Nothing but smoke and mirrors, as nicotine stained fingers probe the wrinkles exposed in the looking glass of time.
And though the song holds out hope for something more, something still a faint possibility, in the end it all becomes nothing more then fading blues.
If there was a way musically to begin the song with teenaged style melodies, and gradually fade to songs that old folks like, it might add more emotional impact and a melodic timeline to match the lyrics.
The industry hold little patience for long, story songs, because the general public is addicted to short burst of communication such as twitter, and texting. Their attention spans cannot grasp the value of such trains of thought, most of today's crowds minds tend to derail.
Perhaps you, like I were born long past our time, back when men and women wove tales in songs that could make even the hardest souls weep. Back when those tales were the stimulation for so many in a much slower world, where thoughts were cherished, and chat was unheard of.
Music has become high speed brain blips, that give one only a glimpse of what the story is about if it even has one.
But times change and what was once so much more literate, and not conversational will come back around again...and perhaps we will live long enough to be a part of that re-emergence. Or perhaps what we write and leave behind will be discovered and shared to a far more appreciative audince in the distant future.
Much like your song we are writers of the past, the present and the future, who long for the hourglass to be turned upside down and allow us the rush toward what is yet to be....and what is not now.
Great write Gordon....I for one enjoyed your work.... and will help carry the cross of story songs amidst those raging at Golgatha...until the ressurection of true beauty brings us musical ascension....once more~~~ LOL
~~~~~~MFB III
Edited by MFB III (05/19/11 12:04 AM)
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#899061 - 05/18/11 12:13 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: MFB III]
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Samuel Harris
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 03/06/05
Posts: 3618
Loc: Burleson, Texas
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MFB 111
That was the most poetic song critique I have ever read in this forum! Be it rough or polished, I think you see what I see in the lyric- heart breaking truth about the human condition.
I think a song can be beautiful even if it doesn't offer a "solution" to the darkness it reveals. "Dust in the Wind" is a fantastically beautiful song that offers absolutely no promise of anything but the void- and yet the void is vast and beautiful and the song captures that beauty with melody, metaphor and mystery. A song can touch us, but does not necessarily comfort us. A song is not a Sunday morning sermon even though I happen to think that one of the best sermons ever delivered was kris Kristofferson's "Sunday Morning coming down". A song writer has the advantage over the Sunday morning preacher because she can preach the truth, and nothing but the truth. The preacher has to "answer the question" or "redeem" the lost. The songwriter just has to ask the question and admit that he she lost.
_________________________
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
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#899103 - 05/18/11 03:42 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Samuel Harris]
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MFB III
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 08/18/10
Posts: 2698
Loc: ohio
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Hey Joe.... Thanks for such kind comments on my comments about a song that won the right to be commented on by Harriet and us.
A song is the easiest way to converse with a soul, it soothes what's savage, calms what is troubled and is remembered if it is worthy for much of our lives.
I have raised my son in ways to avoid the stigma of "Cat's In The Cradle." I have remained politically active in a non-party way, because of songs like "4 Dead In Ohio. and Dylan's classic tune about the "Times They Are A Changing."
So many songs have the power to sway the way we think and act. We as songwriters are blessed with a sacred task that has been sorely neglected, and replaced by a feel good, don't strain my brain, don't impose on my comfort level types of songs...just let me dance and enjoy the bliss of my ignorance over black velvet and a chaser.
If it isn't conversational it won't sell, And don't you dare ever question or praise politics or the government's integrity. past or present.. or take stands against war, lest you anger those in charge, whether they be in charge of the sites where you write, or the hallowed halls of Washing-a-ton of dirty laundry!~ it is unpatriotic to speak freely against madness....or failure by our leaders past and present. n
But...not In My House, and never, ever in my soul...nor my writngs!! If it is too poetic it is not worthy, even as all the dead poets lie rattling their syncopated bones in rage, in mouldering coffins. If it seems contrived or to close to the bone....don't publish it. Keep it short, people just want to move on to the next pleasure. If we still made 45 rpm records today they might just wind up 4.5 RPM.
Thanks for stopping by my comment to Gordon.~~~~MFB III
Edited by MFB III (05/19/11 12:03 AM)
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#899140 - 05/18/11 07:09 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: MFB III]
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Wyman Lloyd
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/14/01
Posts: 6175
Loc: Missouri
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I wasn't going to critique this time, just read, but I'll do one of sorts. this is just another possible take on the Chorus
I just skimmed some of the other crits--looks like they've covered a lot of ground
On the lyric in general, more poem than song all right and too long for ordinary consumption. In Folk you can get by with a little more but I don't see it as Folk.
I make it out to be around 350 or 360 words. Twice too many.
In country for example, one of the most recorded songs ever, is "Rocky Top"--somewhere I believe around 100 words
Anyway, another take on what I figure is the 1st C since it has the hook--which is a GOOD hook IMO
The hands of the clock mark the hours?
I nurse a drink mid our wilting flowers?
THERE WAS a time she used to smile
YEAH THERE WAS A TIME,IT'S BEEN A WHILE
NOW Her FACE AS GRAY AS HER CIGARETTE smoke
AS we sit here TOGETHER alone
THE GRAY CREEPING OVER OUR LIVES NOW TOO
And ALL OF our memories faded blue
That would still need some more work no doubt,but just some thoughts
I thought it needed another color ahead of it to set up BLUE . the first 4 lines are just kinda' "musing"
Not a real crit but another look.I didn't cut out many words
Tried top keep all your thoughts. I think probably the first two lines of what I have should be cut out and there's quite bit of repetition throughout the song that looks like it could be cut
Good luck with it in any case . You have a lot of good thoughts
Wy
Edited by Wyman Lloyd (05/19/11 06:25 AM)
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#899163 - 05/18/11 08:16 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Mackie H.
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 09/20/09
Posts: 5683
Loc: NASHVILLE, TN
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GORDON--
I HAD GIVEN MY TAKE AND SUGGESTIONS IN A RE-WRITE IN FORUM #3--I AM REPOSTING HERE TO BE IN ON THE CRITIQUE WITH THE OTHERS.
GORDON--
MY TAKE--CAPS--JMHO--USE OR LOSE
Faded Blue
by Gordon Parish (c) 2011
ALL THOSE NOTES I PASSED HER in class?
HARD TO BELIEVE THE YEARS have passed?
REMEMBER US LAUGHING TRACED angels in the snow
THE SNOWBALL FIGHTS, BROKE a window or two
Skating TOGETHER out behind the school
Catching each other WAS REALLY COOL
Now I watch the hands of TIME marking the hours
AS I nurse a drink amidst THE wilting flowers
Her yellowed fingertips HOLD THE day’s last smoke
Once upon a time she HAD A smile
Perhaps ONE day it’ll come back in style
TOGETHER TIME PASSES EACH OF US alone
COVERED WITH STALE SMOKE FROM cigarettes
ALL our memories ARE PAINTED faded blue
How many times did I sing her my songs?
I wonder between the clock’s hollow gongs
Once we laughed and ran barefoot in the grass
We rolled in the clover, FINDING A FOUR LEAF GEM
Racing TOGETHER BACK THERE behind the school
Stripping off our jeans FOR A cool SWIM
Now we lie in bed, WATCHING the TV’s glow
Another PASSIN’ DAY MAKES the shadows grow
Leno makes me laugh, but NEVER PASSES my lips
CAN’T RECALL THINGS I used to say
Maybe THEY’LL COME BACK 'ROUND someday
For now I’ll just lie here quietly
WRAPPED IN STALE SMOKE FROM cigarettes
And our blankets ARE TINTED faded blue
How many times HAVE I kissED her goodnight?
Embracing underneath the STARRY SKY
Once we strolled to the crickets’ serenade
AS WE HELD handS FEELING SO SECURE
Passing THE pond out behind the school
Pausing to skip a stone and make a wish
A QUIETNESS IN THE AIR WHERE flowers never bloom
Gray clouds UP ABOVE LOOK DOWN ON OUR ROOM
The NIGHT LIGHT IS low as we settle down to sleep
I SAY A PRAYER FOR BETTER TIMES TO COME
BUT seems there’s nothing left that’s fun
THEN I turn to whisper in her ear
SEE HER COLD skin HAS TURNED paler
And her soft lips HAVE TURNED faded blue
Good Luck with this one!
Mackie
Edited by Mackie H. (05/18/11 10:28 PM)
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#899196 - 05/19/11 12:01 AM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Jean Bullock
Top 10 Poster
Registered: 09/18/01
Posts: 10244
Loc: Anaheim, CA, USA
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Hi, Gordon!
I am writing this without looking at other responses. Tact does not come easy to me, so I hope you will forgive as I blunder my way through this critique.
You have captured a feeling of hopelessness in this piece, a good contrast between then and now, and the feeling of isolation that the speaker is clearly experiencing. You have produced very good imagery that helps bring in a sense of reality - a slice of life effect. Depressing but real.
There is also quite a bit of nicely done alliteration throughout the piece.
What is the story about? Is it about a couple (for simplicity’s sake - a heterosexual couple) who has grown apart as they aged or is it a deathwatch? I think it is a deathwatch, especially because of the last line, “So I turn to whisper in her ear But notice her pale skin so much paler
And her soft lips faded blue.”
The speaker makes references to the woman’s smoking but not his own and refers to the cigarette odor as a stale stench. Because the stale stench of cigarettes is mentioned twice in addition to the line, “ ... her yellowed fingertips cling to her day’s last smoke,” Yellowed fingertips are the signs of a very heavy smoker - probably a chain smoker. The combination of the smoking references and the contrast between the active lifestyle of the past and the inactivity of the present leads me to believe that this is not only a story about a deathwatch but a warning about the dangers of smoking. It is a story with a message. Very sad and depressing but that is the way life is sometimes.
To me, these words work better as a poem. I can envision them in an operatic or musical show setting, but not in a “normal” radio-type contemporary song setting. (I don’t know how else to put that, but I hope you know what I mean.)
If you want this to be a contemporary radio type song, extensive editing may be needed.
You could do it like this:
Now I watch the hands of the clock marking the hours
While I nurse a drink amidst our wilting flowers
And her yellowed fingertips cling to her day’s last smoke
Once upon a time she used to smile
Perhaps someday it’ll come back in style
But for now we just sit here, each alone
Immersed in the stale stench of cigarettes
And our memories faded blue
Now we lie in our bed, basking in the TV’s glow
Another day’s passage marked as the shadows grow
Leno makes me laugh, but only silence leaves my lips
It seems there’s something I used to say
Maybe I will again someday
But for now I’ll just lie here quietly
Wrapped in the stale stench of cigarettes
And our blankets faded blue
Here you could create a bridge that summarizes the early days of their relationship.
Now in the silence of our room, flowers never bloom
And gray clouds gather here, enshroud us in their gloom
The lamplight flickers low as we settle down to sleep
I wish there was more that could be done
It seems there’s nothing left that’s fun
So I turn to whisper in her ear
But notice her pale skin so much paler
And her soft lips faded blue
Or:
How many times did I write her in class?
It seems so clear; could so much time have passed?
Once we laughed and made angels in the snow
Tossed snowballs at icicles, breaking a window or two
Skating on the pond out behind the school
Catching each other whenever we slipped
Then create a chorus that brings us back to the present.
How many times did I sing her my songs?
I wonder between the clock’s hollow gongs
Once we laughed and ran barefoot in the grass
We rolled in the soft clover, searching for a little luck
Racing to the pond out behind the school
Stripping off our jeans to probe its cool depths
Chorus
How many times did I kiss her goodnight?
Embracing underneath the faint starlight
Once we strolled to the crickets’ serenade
While holding each other’s hand, the warmest security
Passing by the pond out behind the school
Pausing to skip a stone and make a wish
Final Chorus
Or you could do some trimming in the present chorus, or you could make the verse the chorus and trim it, keeping the hook.
Anyway, good luck to you.
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#899266 - 05/19/11 10:13 AM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Joy Boy
Serious Contributor
Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 695
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Hi Gordon. Congrats on the critique from Ms. Shock.
I'd agree with what folks have said about meter and rhyme scheme and structure. I have a hard time trying to fit this to a melody, and I tend on first draft to crowd enough words into a lyric to elbow all those angels off the head of a pin.
There's a lot of imagery here. You do a good job of following the old writer's rule of showing instead of telling. And I really like some of the lines: "It seems there's something I used to say," for example. To me, that says more about the mindset of someone in a broken relationship that all the musings about how much fun it used to be to go skinny dipping behind the school house.
But honestly, the whole song seems like a set up to the "punch line" of her dying just as he finally decides after God knows how many years or decades of silence on the subject to finally talk about why things aren't the way they used to be. It feels like a rip off at that point.
The narrative arc, the change in the people, is that once they were in love and now they aren't. I want to know why, or have some indication of why, it happened. Otherwise it's like coming across the aftermath of a train wreck and when you ask a witness what happened, all you get is a shrug of the shoulders and an "I dunno."
There's a certain subset of country song that uses a hook that changes meaning as the time of the story passes. "If You Get There Before I Do" comes to mind. You might be able to do that with faded blue. The winter sky is a faded blue. The jeans are a faded blue, etc., right up to the blue lips. But I'd make it a wistful remembrance and maybe even add the hope of hooking up in heaven.
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#899466 - 05/20/11 12:51 AM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Joy Boy]
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Ricki E. Bellos
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/12/08
Posts: 3817
Loc: Wisconsin
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Hi Gordon,
I have mixed feelings about this lyric. I have no problem with writing a song about getting old. I've written one myself. And I don't mind a sad song with a sad ending. There isn't always a rope of hope in real life. I'm thinking there are 2 stories going on here and the way this is written, neither are going far enough.
In the verses, you tell a story of childhood sweethearts, from the beginning to what appears to be their golden years. It's sweet and descriptive, although I'm not sure of the significance of the pond. It's almost like a third character, but, whatever.
The revolving choruses drop us abruptly into the present and it's not so sweet or golden. I'm visualizing an old man watching the love of his life dying before his eyes, fingers still yellowed from the cigarettes she can't quit that have probably contributed to her illness. I have no doubt he turns to her, only to find her dead. The blue lips gave it away.
There doesn't appear to be any sadness in this man. It's like she's dying and then dead, and the life force has been sucked out of him as well and he's just numb. It's real but emotionless. I don't care about either one of them. Part of that is the language, the "yellowed fingers", "stale stench", "enshroud us in their gloom". This isn't just sad, it's pathetic, not depressing but morbid. The story doesn't have to be but the language makes it so.
I think you're trying to show both sides of the lives of these people but it's really too much for one song to hold. I would pick one, maybe give a hint of the other, but soften the words so the listener feels some sympathy, some empathy for what happens in the end.
And after you've done that, pick a rhyme scheme and stick with it. Anything less is just lazy writing and you've already shown us that you can write.
Ricki
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#899529 - 05/20/11 10:23 AM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Ricki E. Bellos]
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Z. Mulls
Serious Contributor
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 314
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As I understand it, this exercise is for those giving the critiques as much as, if not more than, the person who wrote the original lyric. We’re all too close to our own work and can be more objective about someone else’s. It’s the process of criticism – the ability to look at strengths and weaknesses in a lyric (or song), and dispassionately break down why a song works (or doesn’t). The idea is that the more effectively we can do this on someone else’s work, hopefully we can apply that same sharpness to our own (becoming our own best, and ruthless, editor).
That said, there are some tendencies in the criticism itself that I thought it was worth commenting on; ways of approaching the process of analysis that don’t necessarily help us get to the point of dispassionate analysis, and don’t necessarily help the writer improve his/her work. It’s not just about seeing if we “got it right” when Harriet weighs in, but how well our critical skills are developing.
IMO, the two first questions that should be asked are What was the writer trying to do, and then Did s/he get there? After that, the exercise is to identify those elements that made it work, or caused it not to – what served the song well, and where is it not reaching the goal.
One impulse I notice a lot is to spend time evaluating the idea of the song, and giving praise or criticism. The emotional narrative of a song – regardless of how it is presented – gets in the way of being able to analyze it. Many songs deal with highly charged topics (death of a spouse, or a parent, love for a parent or child, childhood memories, young love thwarted or blooming); it’s no accident we reach for these topics. There will be an automatic emotional reaction just on the subject matter. A song about a child that dies will make us sad, it’s a trigger – but that emotional response will have nothing to do with the skill of the writing. It’s an unearned reaction. And it’s easy to let that reaction color the ability to analyze the writing.
In this case, we are sad because of a young relationship that has turned into a hopeless end-of-life situation, and because of a loveless death. As critiquers, we have to ask if we’re sad instinctively, or whether there was something in the writing of it that did/didn’t evoke that emotion, and how specifically can we pinpoint the writer’s choices behind it. I don’t know that it’s helpful to praise (or criticize) the writer for choosing a sad subject – how well did he write what he chose to write?
The other impulse I see a lot (not only on this thread but on others) is to One is the impulse to discuss the song we would have written if we had written it. The post then becomes a discussion of the poster’s own work, rather than an evaluation of the original writer’s. It’s very difficult, when making suggestions, to avoid a “here’s what I would have done” vibe, but it can go too far. And some people wind up doing their own (unasked-for) version of the whole lyric, or large sections. Again, I’m not sure this is helpful to getting the original writer to learn to do his/her own rewrites, and to rethink their own work. The lesson is not “how would I have written this” (because we all could do our own sensational version of the same story), but “how could the writer better write what he is imagining”
I checked in with Brian before posting anything, as I wasn’t sure if it was appropriate to discuss the nature of criticism itself on the thread, and he felt that if it were thoughtfully phrased and respectfully presented, it might provoke an interesting discussion.
_________________________
ZMULLS.COM My Soundclick2007 Grand Prize Winner International Songwriting Competition Avatar Photo by Diana (used with permission)
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#899552 - 05/20/11 11:30 AM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Nathan Baker
Serious Contributor
Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 350
Loc: Tennessee
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Hi Gordon,
"Faded Blue" is a hybrid, a cross between lyric and poem. I do think there is a solid lyric in the mix, maybe two.
As a poem it reads well but has gaps in the story that leave it up the reader to make the connections as to interpretation.
I was left thinking that the "pond" was the key to the story's intrepretation. It is mentioned three times but still leaves the reader wondering as to its significance. I found myself wanting to know more about the events that led to the isolation and chain smoking.
As a lyric I found the piece too wordy and lacking inherent rhythm with some of the word choices more suited to poetry.
Good luck with this one.
Peace,
Nathan
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#899558 - 05/20/11 11:43 AM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Z. Mulls]
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Samuel Harris
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 03/06/05
Posts: 3618
Loc: Burleson, Texas
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a.mulls,
At various times over the years I have probably caved it to every "impulse" you have described above. Your warning reminds me of what a councilor said to my wife and I when we became foster parents several years ago. She said, "There are three things you must remember about this child you are about to take into your home. Number 1: This is NOT your child. Number 2. This is not YOUR child. Number 3. THIS IS NOT YOUR CHILD!"
_________________________
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
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#899565 - 05/20/11 12:04 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Samuel Harris]
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DonnaMarilyn
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 08/16/08
Posts: 3635
Loc: Netherlands
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You make good points, Z. Mulls. A couple of weeks ago on the Shout Box, I suggested to Brian that it might be useful to post a set of critiquing guidelines at the top of the Mentor Critique thread, so that people could make better informed and more objective observations. (I even offered to draw up the list.  )
I'd be interested to know how others would feel about having that type of backup.
Donna
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#899570 - 05/20/11 12:39 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: DonnaMarilyn]
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Kevin Emmrich
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 8632
Loc: Crozet, VA
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Ah, we are critiquing critiques now (ha, ha). Actually I think that is quite useful. Yes we could have a checklist of things to look at for the song (as Donna suggested) or we can just go free form as we are now. Both are valid approaches. I can do either.
The free form method we have now is effective, though. Individually some of the critiques might not "say" much, but collectively, there is a lot of good insight.
I never care too much, when someone re-writes an entire lyric based on what they would have done -- but dang if I didn't do that very same thing (LOL!). And the mentors often take the approach of "here's what I would do if I was a co-writer on this lyric...".
n this case, we are sad because of a young relationship that has turned into a hopeless end-of-life situation, and because of a loveless death. As critiquers, we have to ask if we’re sad instinctively, or whether there was something in the writing of it that did/didn’t evoke that emotion, and how specifically can we pinpoint the writer’s choices behind it. I don’t know that it’s helpful to praise (or criticize) the writer for choosing a sad subject – how well did he write what he chose to write?
Here is the crux of the matter for me -- I didn't feel sad, I didn't feel much of anything. Does that make it bad writing or ineffective writing? No, it just means it was ineffective for me at the time I read it. Tomorrow I might re-read it and something new will resonate that I missed earlier. It is an inexact science at best.
Kevin
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#899575 - 05/20/11 12:59 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Kevin Emmrich]
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Z. Mulls
Serious Contributor
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 314
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It *is* an inexact science -- which is why we all get better with practice. When we work on our approach, and question our instincts, we get more incisive -- hopefully.
I have done a lot of directing, theatre work, and I've trained myself in (over) 40 years of doing it to react first, and analyze after. First, what reaction did I have, Second, what made me react that way (good or bad). I try (and try) to remember to approach lyric crits that way.
I had the same reaction to the story -- I was left a little cold by it. So I went back to look at how the story was done to see what was missing for me. I felt a distance, despite some good and *specific* images by the writer, and tried to nail what it was in the writing. For someone who had a strong emotional reaction, the process is the same -- was it just the idea of the story that provoked it, or could the writing have conveyed it better.....?
(Oh, and ETA to Kevin, yes, this is sort of critiquing critiques, which is why I checked in with Brian before posting. But this whole thread is about helping us to be better critiquers of others, which will make us better critiquers of our own work. So, I hope some crosstalk is useful -- as long as we always bring the discussion back to the lyric we're evaluating).
Edited by Z. Mulls (05/20/11 01:01 PM)
_________________________
ZMULLS.COM My Soundclick2007 Grand Prize Winner International Songwriting Competition Avatar Photo by Diana (used with permission)
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#899581 - 05/20/11 02:00 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Z. Mulls]
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Wyman Lloyd
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/14/01
Posts: 6175
Loc: Missouri
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As far as the guidelines for critiquing goes---similar has been suggested different times in the past but Brian has never bought it.
But who knows, he might be "Mellowing"---Naaah!!
(You just CAN'T stay outa' trouble, can ya' Wy
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#899627 - 05/20/11 07:08 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Z. Mulls]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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I think everything that Z. Mulls said was spot on. This excercise is about the critiques. The actual lyric or mp3 file chosen is just a happy side effect but not the real point of it all. He did a much better job than I did pointing that out.
I try hard not to confine folks to a set of rules. This is not to suggest Donna's idea is a bad one. In fact, I deeply respect Donna's viewpoints so much I privately asked her to edit my own writing, something I'd never done before on the board in the history of JPF. So please don't anyone feel I am against her idea or ability to write a brilliant set of guidelines. I bet she could and would do just that. But part of me also thinks that leaving it a bit more open leads to other thoughts and ideas that may be stiffled by rules and guidelines. It's why I came to what I think was my best ever idea of judging music with one wide open rule: Does the music move you? That's as wide open as it can be and leads to using your own honest viewpoints without corrupting it by placing rules and guidelines which may have nothing at all to do with why YOU might feel a certain way about the music. I took a similar approach with this process. That may or may not be the best and certainly is not the only way to skin this cat. But I do strongly believe that in our music awards, it's the best possible way to have 10,000 very different people of all levels of skill and diversity of opinion judge a massive amount of music. In terms of this excercise however, I think that Z.Mulls nailed it quite nicely above.
Our goal here is to learn to write fantastic critiques of other people's work and bring those learned, improved or challenged viewpoints (challenged means you may not change your process, but at least you understand the strength and personal correctness of why you approach things the way that you do)to bear on your own music. We can't often see glaring problems in our own work because we're too close to it, but we easily can see it in other people's work. The hope is that what clicks easily for you on this excercise can eventually be used to improve your own abilities in writing and self editing your own work. It may not happen consciously, but instead on a more intuitive and internal way. At least that is the goal here.
The arguments should be more focused on how we critiqued something than what we critiqued. In a perfect world one would lead seamlessly on to the other and then directly on to your own work as you create it.
Well done Z.Mulls. And well done to all of you who are teaching yourself (and others) and strengthening your own self editing skills while helping, as a happy side effect, the writer of this work as a by product of this excercise. I am looking forward to hearing what Harriet has to say about all of this including whether we should introduce guidelines/rules to the process. I do think we might find what many schools have found here in the USA when teachers try to teach to a "test" to get high test score instead of just teaching in their own intuitive style and format so people can learn more organically and get more diversity from the teaching staff. The kids learn little to nothing except answers to a test, the teachers end up frustrated and unfulfilled and the entire mess leaves everyone suffering and less rewarded. But on this, I could be wrong. And perhaps it would work on the general lyric/mp3 feedback boards, but I'd have to have compelling evidence to change it I think. Just because we could do it and do it well, doesn't mean we should do it. Perhaps we could test it on a single board and see what happens. Let's discuss it off this topic somewhere though and get back to this topic. We'd still love a few more thoughts before Harriet jumps back in.
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#900014 - 05/23/11 07:18 AM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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summeoyo
Serious Contributor
Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 861
Loc: Harrisburg, PA, USA
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Hi Gordon. Welcome to JPF. I see this lyric fitting a blues song. The structure fits that genre. As some have also observed, it lacks a bridge which could benefit the song by drawing a climax emotionally. As it is, there's no emotional payoff just a rambling comparision of present and past. Instead of double verses, my I suggest shortening the lyric's verses so that you have single verses that open with lines about the past and closing lines about the present and ending with your hook lines.
Right now that would mean 14 lines to each verse. However since this would be a slow song, you could cut it to 10 lines or under for each verse using your best lines. Then you could add a short bridge to climax the song before ending with v3. An AABA structure could be worked with by a blues artist into an interesting song here.
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#900202 - 05/24/11 01:28 AM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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Ricky Layne
Serious Contributor
Registered: 01/13/11
Posts: 325
Loc: Oregon
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Gordon,
A few initial thoughts:
I think you paint some good pictures with your words. The ending lines were strong to end the story. This song made me think of Same Old Lang Syne by Dan Fogelberg.
Keep in mind for me it is hard to critique lyrics especially without the music to accompany it. I am a rookie songwriter for sure. I wanted to get involved in this forum as it is such a great idea and I hope to submit a song/lyric too someday.
I know this seems like I am copying others but I also thought it more poetic then song. Again, without music...
I get the story but do not prefer the back and forth to the same time "behind the school". I feel like if the writer spent his whole life with her there must be some memories in between. So I would think start with school but then move the story forward especially since the faded blue lines stay consistent with old age. Right now the song is not moving forward or backward but just jumping from very young to very old.
Another thing that is missing is emotional intimacy. How does he really FEEL about her then, now, or about her dying. As it stands I think this could be a relative or good friend of his but I'm sure it is someone much more intimate to him then that! I feel I have to infer that too much. Not only how he feels about her but how he feels about anything, the room, the smoking, or the memories themselves. I think it is a bunch of memories with good pictures that I can certainly see but lacking feeling.
I think an emotional bridge or more emotional chorus is needed. I mentioned Old Lang Syne at the beginning and I think that song bridges between storytelling and emotion with the chorus:
We drank a toast to innocence
We drank a toast to now
And tried to reach beyond the emptiness
But neither one knew how
Sorry to compare your song to a classic. Not very fair but this helped me too because I liked the story and lyrics of your song. I liked how it ended also, but could not put a finger on why it did not grab me personally even though I saw all of the pictures and related to them well.
So I think it is missing something emotionally and it may not be too hard to fix that. I mean I look at Fogelbergs lyrics and don't think they are super brilliant in themselves but in the middle of that song they make all the difference IMO.
Great job and I am sure you will learn a lot from this experience as all of us will too.
Thank you!
Ricky
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#900292 - 05/24/11 12:00 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Ricky Layne]
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tim houlihan
Serious Contributor
Registered: 01/25/11
Posts: 215
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Hey Ricky-
That's a good critique you gave
Tim
_________________________
As Neil says: Keep On Rockin' in the Free World!
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#900397 - 05/24/11 10:17 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: tim houlihan]
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harriet schock
JPF Mentor
Registered: 12/01/01
Posts: 102
Loc: L.A., CA 90036
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Faded Blue
by Gordon Parish
Copyright Gordon Parish
How many times did I write her in class?
It seems so clear; could so much time have passed?
Once we laughed and made angels in the snow
Tossed snowballs at icicles, breaking a window or two
Skating on the pond out behind the school
Catching each other whenever we slipped
Now I watch the hands of the clock marking the hours
While I nurse a drink amidst our wilting flowers
And her yellowed fingertips cling to her day’s last smoke
Once upon a time she used to smile
Perhaps someday it’ll come back in style
But for now we just sit here, each alone
Immersed in the stale stench of cigarettes
And our memories faded blue
How many times did I sing her my songs?
I wonder between the clock’s hollow gongs
Once we laughed and ran barefoot in the grass
We rolled in the soft clover, searching for a little luck
Racing to the pond out behind the school
Stripping off our jeans to probe its cool depths
Now we lie in our bed, basking in the TV’s glow
Another day’s passage marked as the shadows grow
Leno makes me laugh, but only silence leaves my lips
It seems there’s something I used to say
Maybe I will again someday
But for now I’ll just lie here quietly
Wrapped in the stale stench of cigarettes
And our blankets faded blue
How many times did I kiss her goodnight?
Embracing underneath the faint starlight
Once we strolled to the crickets’ serenade
While holding each other’s hand, the warmest security
Passing by the pond out behind the school
Pausing to skip a stone and make a wish
Now in the silence of our room, flowers never bloom
And gray clouds gather here, enshroud us in their gloom
The lamplight flickers low as we settle down to sleep
I wish there was more that could be done
It seems there’s nothing left that’s fun
So I turn to whisper in her ear
But notice her pale skin so much paler
And her soft lips faded blue
______________________________________
The group that participates on this forum has gotten so good at this, I continue to be astounded by you. Sometimes I choose a lyric and I'm not sure why, but I thought this one would provoke good discussion and it has.
My acting teacher, Gary Imhoff, likes to critique by giving us what he calls a compliment sandwich. Something complimentary, then the critique, ending with something complimentary. I pointed out to him that it would not be a "compliment sandwich" because the compliment would have to be what's in the middle in that case, that it would be a "critique sandwich." So now every time he uses the term, he mentions that I have an objection to it. The point here, though, is that the concept behind "compliment sandwich" is very valuable. It eases into the problems and leaves the person feeling there's hope. So let me start by saying to you, Gordon, that you have definitely "shown" rather than "told" and that's the first rule of any kind of writing--whether it's novel, screenplay, song or whatever. I love that you have involved our senses from the get go. You are capable of communicating clearly and saying a lot in a few words, which is my definition of poetry. Many folks consider poetry to be writing in a way that isn't conversational and isn't even clear. That's certainly not modern poetry or if it is, it isn't good modern poetry. Yes, this is like poetry in that regard, so that's good. But it is structured like a song with verses and choruses, each chorus ending with the title. That's all good.
There are problems with it as a lyric, though. I don't care that you don't tell us what happened that made today be such a bummer when the past was such a high. What I do care about is that you say "now" three times and are talking about 3 different "nows." When a listener watches a performer or listens to a singer, he is imagining the story as the singer tells the story. He sees you running barefoot in the grass, rolling in the clover, etc. He knows that's in the past because you then say "now I watch the hands of the clock..." and at that point the wife is clinging to her day's last smoke. The next "now" you're lying in bed (thank you for saying "lying" and not "laying." Is this the same scene? I doubt it because the in final chorus, she's dead. I find it hard to believe this is all the same scene. In either case, you definitely waited too long to whisper in her ear--I'm saying "you" meaning the person singing the song. If I had any objections to the characters it was that "you" waited until she was dead to try to speak to her.
Of course, when you make this an actual lyric, you will have to pay attention to rhyme scheme, etc. Otherwise, you can consider it a free verse poem. But....you need to fix the "now" problem no matter what you call it. It might be easier to have it be one scene for all the nows. Maybe they're in bed the whole time, and she's not smoking in the first chorus. But even that isn't a solution because it's just macabre to have her smoke her day's last smoke and simply die. Maybe the "faded blue" lips don't indicate death and there's some way to tell us that. I love "Once upon a time she used to smile
Perhaps someday it’ll come back in style." It does make him look a bit clueless, though, if he's in bed with someone who in less than 3 minutes is going to die and he's not even speaking to her and hopes she'll change her ways, which clearly he thinks she should. ("Maybe it'll come back in style.")
I'm also puzzled by this: "It seems there’s nothing left that’s fun So I turn to whisper in her ear." First of all, "there's nothing left that's fun" makes him seem terribly callous that he's given up on his dying wife because she's not fun anymore. Maybe he means he's not fun either but still....it seems like he's saying "Hey, why don't you get off your death bed and we could go roller skating. This is a drag." I know you probably had some other meaning or picture in mind but what I see is simply someone pretty insensitive. It would make your character seem much more sympathetic if he missed something about HER rather than just how he felt with her. I don't feel I know this woman at all. Oh, yes, she's a smoker. I definitely know that. But otherwise, what does he miss? Maybe there's nothing there to miss and that's why he waits until she dies to say something. I know this sounds cruel, but this is what the song leads me to wonder.
If this song were not so beautifully illustrated with good pictures, sounds, smells and cleverness, I wouldn't be so hard on you. I'd just suggest that you should chalk this off to a learning experience. But I think this song should and could be rewritten to be very impactful. There are a lot of great suggestions here on the forum. To rephrase the Serenity Prayer, I hope you have the serenity to keep the parts you want to keep, the courage to change the parts you need to change and the wisdom to know the difference.
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#900424 - 05/25/11 02:12 AM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: harriet schock]
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Brian Austin Whitney
Bard of the Boards
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 16289
Loc: Indianapolis, IN USA
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Thanks Harriet for the excellent critique as always! I know you are VERY busy right now, and we are honored you still found time to help out. To everyone, please check out Harriet's site to learn more about her and the work she's doing. http://www.harrietschock.com
Thanks again Harriet!!!
Brian
_________________________
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@aol.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney "Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney
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#900757 - 05/26/11 01:37 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Brian Austin Whitney]
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niteshift
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 12/17/06
Posts: 4053
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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Thanks Harriet,
I like the "compliment sandwich" bit, better referd to, as you say, as a "critique sandwich". Gotta remember that one.......
I'm happy to critique, but am too blunt. I'm REALLY blunt with folks I know because I've heard their work, and if it's a dud song, then I can say so because I've seen better work from them and no offence is taken.
Top marks to Gordon for putting his work out there. It's not bad work, just not so good to write songs to.
Gordon ? I hope you will come back, and give us your thoughts. To be picked from many, then vilified, put through the ringer, hung out to dry, with some nice comments along the way, is a true privelidge.
And who ever said song writing was easy ?
cheers, niteshift
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#900762 - 05/26/11 01:54 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: niteshift]
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Scott Campbell
Top 10 Poster
Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 10861
Loc: Lakeland, FL, USA
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Great to read your critique Harriet!
I was interested about the "now" comments - because I wasn't bothered by them. Then again I interpreted it as a single scene - as if the song was playing out in real time. Maybe that's why I was bothered by the ending.
I'm curious to hear what Gordon had in mind.
Scott
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#900821 - 05/26/11 08:46 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Scott Campbell]
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Diane Ewing
Serious Contributor
Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 1120
Loc: Wayne, PA USA
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I am very impressed with the insight shown in all the critiques.
And Harriet, of course yours is spot on as always. I don't have anything else to add to this thread except,
Gordon, if you're out there, this is probably a good time to jump into the conversation!
_________________________
Diane Ewing
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#900868 - 05/27/11 07:09 AM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Diane Ewing]
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Kevin Emmrich
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 8632
Loc: Crozet, VA
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Whatever happened to Mr Gordon? Well, it was still a fun exercise and I must say that I didn't think about the three "Nows" that Harriet pointed out.
In the end, I am not sure how to fix this one so it is not so "unemotional". Maybe Gordon can give us the background for it, since he probably didn't live this one himself.
In any case, thanks to Brian for resurrecting this, Gordon and all the other participants for making it interesting -- and to Harriet for her time, expertise and caring.
Kevin
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#900875 - 05/27/11 07:59 AM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Kevin Emmrich]
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Wyman Lloyd
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/14/01
Posts: 6175
Loc: Missouri
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Gordon is probably licking his wounds :).
Seriously though, I would think it could be quite an ordeal to throw a "newcomer" into.
I know Harriet doesn't know who's been here a while and who hasn't, but it almost seems like it'd be better if they'd been been here a while and already taken a few licks
Though I think Gordon can handle it, I can see some new writers being somewhat "devestated" by it. Heck, I know "I" would've been when I started.
As far as some saying "They'd just as well get used to it"--quite true, but maybe not all at ONCE
Just some thoughts
Wy
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#900876 - 05/27/11 08:18 AM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Wyman Lloyd]
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Kevin Emmrich
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 8632
Loc: Crozet, VA
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I was very new to JPF (and songwriting) when one of my RPM '07 tunes was selected by harriet for Mentor Critiquing -- I got destroyed.
I survived and I am still here -- but I don't know if I have improved very much (ha, ha). In the end, a songwriter almost needs to have a delusional belief in themself to keep at it. ... and yes we do improve with time and effort -- if we have an open mind.
Kevin
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#900885 - 05/27/11 09:49 AM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Kevin Emmrich]
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Ricki E. Bellos
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/12/08
Posts: 3817
Loc: Wisconsin
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Thanks Harriet. I like that sandwich concept too. Always temper your criticism with what's good, something the writer can build on.
I was also under the impression that all the choruses were happening in the same time frame. This definitely needs some clarification from the writer, which would indicate that there is something lacking. So, Lucy, I mean Gordon, 'spain yourself!
Ricki
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#900916 - 05/27/11 01:10 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Ricki E. Bellos]
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Gordon
Casual Observer
Registered: 03/24/11
Posts: 39
Loc: Columbus, OH, USA
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Hello Everyone!
I'm sorry it has taken me a few days to get to this... work really went crazy on me late last week and into this week... it wasn’t until my morning coffee before work yesterday that i saw Harriet's critique was posted and then i wanted to make sure with Brian that I was cleared to go.
So, I wanted to first thank everyone who has taken the time to read and think about my lyric and post very extensive, thoughtful, and detailed comments. And in particular, thank you Harriet - I truly felt a mixture of fortune and terror when i saw that you had selected Faded Blue this session! But, I realize that this program is not about my lryic specifically... it is about everyone investing some time and thought into a thorough critique of a lyric, then being able to review not only others' critiques, but also that of a professional in the field to enhance our understanding of what makes a good lyric... what works or doesn't work so well. With that in mind, i offered Faded Blue not because i harbored some illusion that it was a perfect lyric, but rather because i thought it might, if selected, offer a great "teachable moment" opportunity and spur some interesting and valuable discussion. And i think that worked out pretty well... i am amazed by the depth and breadth of the commentary, and the full scope
This is a great program that Brian has set up, and I think that we are very fortunate that Harriet invests her time to help us. I hope that we can keep this program going, and i look forward to helping and participating as best i can!
A few days into this I realized that i had better start taking notes to prepare my responses because i was getting so much material it was going to take quite a while! I still have a way to go, and hope to post my replies, thoughts, questions in much more detail this weekend... I think every single comment has offered a great deal for me to think about. Some of you were actually trying to puzzle out meter and music for me even - that is really working hard and i can't tell you how much i appreciate that!
By the time Harriet posted her critique, i think the rest of you had identified, bewteen you, every single line that i was self conscious with... or less than happy with... I've been working on this particular piece, off and on, for about 14 years - it is without doubt the hardest, most frustrating, most elusive bit of creative writing i've ever attempted. I'm sure many of you must have similar experiences... I'm curious to hear how you have dealt with them.
Also, while i'm working on my response this weekend, please continue to comment and discuss this topic. And remember, as i understand it, it isn't just about Faded Blue, specifically, but about what works or doesn't work in a lyric, and it is about how to critique a lyric. I enjoyed the discussion on critiquing - because i am new to attempting to write lyrics, i am also very new and not always sure how to go about critiquing them!
We have been discussing meter, rhythm, and poetry vs. lyric quite a bit... but one thing that has intrigued me, that i didn't expect really, was the discussion on the narrator. Some found him downright cruel, some insensitive or pathetic... a few seemed to empathize with him more... With a short story, a writer has quite a bit of room to develop character, a poem still affords some room... seems a lyric is even tighter...
With a "happy" song lyric, it would seem easier to make a likable narrator... with a sadder or even downright depressing lyric, it seems a little trickier to avoid sentimentality or maybe creating a narrator/character that is pathetic, insensitive, or maybe the opposite - too sentimental...
P.S – sorry for further delays… I got to work extra early to hammer out a short initial thank you once I saw I had the green light from Brian… and our server went down, so I’m getting this not-so-short thank you posted here at the tail end of my lunch hour…
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#900927 - 05/27/11 02:03 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Gordon]
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Wyman Lloyd
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/14/01
Posts: 6175
Loc: Missouri
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Well done and well said Gordon
Wy
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#900929 - 05/27/11 02:24 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Wyman Lloyd]
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Z. Mulls
Serious Contributor
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 314
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Gordon
Yes, what you just said about the difference between a short story and a lyric, that right there. In a short story you can take all the time you need to explain how a character feels. You can add another paragraph or two without violating the length of the story. But your song has limits. There are so many forms to choose, and there are variations, but you know you are going to clock in between 3:30 and 5:00 in almost every case.
It’s interesting you’ve been working on this piece, on and off, for 14 years. It’s probably why it’s so wordy. You’ve had so many ideas come in and out, you’ve gotten a bunch that you’re not ready to let go, so the verses are overstuffed. You only have so much “real estate” and you’ve covered every square inch of it, and stacked some stuff on top of other stuff. Lyric-writing is about economy and removing what’s extraneous. Which writer was it that said you have to “kill your darlings?”
I think everyone gets that the narrator loved her when they were very young; but I’m among those who got the impression he was dead inside now, and feels little when he sees her dead. It might be you need to fill in some of the details between 17 and 70, it might be finding ways to show us more depth of feeling in him now – but you can’t start adding words or moving words around without more room. You need to clear out some real estate to work with.
The other comment I’d make is that if you’ve worked on this for 14 years, there’s probably a lot of different things you want to say with it, many ideas. The wonderful thing about songs is that you can put some songs in this one, and take the leftover ideas as building blocks for the next one. Or three.
_________________________
ZMULLS.COM My Soundclick2007 Grand Prize Winner International Songwriting Competition Avatar Photo by Diana (used with permission)
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#900939 - 05/27/11 04:18 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Z. Mulls]
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Gordon
Casual Observer
Registered: 03/24/11
Posts: 39
Loc: Columbus, OH, USA
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Hello again…
Okay, maybe another quick reply for those inquiring about some revelation into what I was thinking, which may help also to spur some follow up conversation and advice for… well… any of us who may find ourselves in similar situations…
My idea for this originated over 14 years ago, when I drove out to Indianapolis to meet one of my best friends for his birthday. I arrived at the bar a couple hours early, and knowing that he and his work friends wouldn’t be showing up for quite some time, I settled down with a beer and just kind of watched the crowd as I often do. I watched an older couple enter, order a couple drinks and sit at a table. They sat there, smoking (you could still smoke in public places back then) and drinking, but never speaking a word. They were there about an hour, then quietly paid their tab and left.
So I started wondering… do they speak? Were they once young and in love… holding hands, kissing in public, skinny dipping, that sort of thing? If so, how do you get to the point where maybe you don’t communicate any more. So, I pulled out a notebook and a pen and just started scribbling ideas down, like a stream of consciousness. By the time my friend arrived, I had a rough poem sketched out, not too dissimilar to what I have here – same basic premise, trying to show young lovers against aged, seemingly lonely people. Now, for all I know, that particular couple probably left the little neighborhood bar I was in, went to a country and western bar and stayed up ‘til 3 am line dancing!! But I guess I imagined something drearier and much, much grayer.
Over the years, I keep putting it away for awhile, then bringing it up, reading it, not liking it, re-writing and editing. Sometimes I get more “direct” … and the most recent time I pulled it up was last December, and when I read it, I wanted to vomit. I thought, “what the heck was I thinking, this is just AWFUL!” and started into extensive re-writing yet again. But, as a poem. Always as a poem, really. I had it where I felt mostly good about it as a poem and a friend of mine suggested I submit it to a song lyric contest. I didn’t think of it as a lyric… didn’t have a steady meter or nice rhyme scheme… but my friend suggested that it read well (and I was trying to create a poem that could make a good “performance” piece in that regard) and had a little ambiguity to it, which he liked.
So, the “now” chorus-like sections are meant to be “present day”.. in old age… I wanted to suggest time passage on the order of “hours”… they are sitting… then lying watching Leno… then settling down to sleep. The flashbacks to the happy youth were intended to suggest time on two levels… seasons, really, and years, more subtley, much more ambiguously. The first verse is in winter, obviously, and they are participating in more innocent activities… making angels in the snow, throwing snowballs… like they’re very young, just kids and it’s January or February in a Midwestern US town… next we see them rolling in clover and skinny dipping… a little more… hormonal?... like teenagers in the spring?... then finally we see them strolling hand in hand, kissing goodnight, making wishes… perhaps a little more mature, in summer, closer to marrying age… and in that sense, the scenes of them old and in their room… kind of like autumn… gray, late in the year…
I admit… very subtle… perhaps too subtle by half?... and how does that translate to a song lyric? As a poem, maybe if it strikes someone, they can really linger and re-read and “study” to try to find things like that. In various incarnations of this particular poem/lyric, I’ve been more direct, but then the guy seems too whiny, or it just seems too obvious (I still have one remnant from some of those versions… the “could so much time have passed?” in line 2… which still reads “too on the nose” to me in many ways). And attempts to bridge some of the middle portions of their life together to show a general ‘fading’ of love… seemed to me to come up hollow… I tried to focus on the contrast “what was” vs. “what is”… and leave the guy seemingly confused and helpless as to when it happened or how to get it back.
So, again, not necessarily to make this about me, but in similar situations, has anyone any tips, suggestions on how to balance subtlety vs. clarity in a lyric… or to succinctly capture and sum up a lifetime in a relatively short lyric (mine you the Fogelberg song ref was gold – thank you!... and i know several of you have given me some suggestions related to this as well and i'm still taking notes!), how or when to go for “details” vs. “broader emotion” or balance those… all in trying to keep to a song-length…? I have been discovering most of my poems and lyrical poems that I’ve written are in the 400-800 word range… not so conducive in general to a lyric.
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#900949 - 05/27/11 05:47 PM
Re: Week 56 MP3/Lyric Pick "Faded Blue"
[Re: Gordon]
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Wyman Lloyd
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/14/01
Posts: 6175
Loc: Missouri
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As to the length of the poems you now have--that would take some serious work to convert them into song lyrics for sure. Even the 400 word ones would, in most cases need to be cut by at least half IMO. Varying somewhat depending on what genre it's intended for of course.
Maybe better to just take a central idea out of one and start over, drawing some embellishments from the rest of the poem. You have plenty of good ideas.No doubt about that.
My first song lyrics had 8 to 12 verses. ----THREE or FOUR verses and a chorus!!!!!!!????? --You're kidding!!!!-A HUNDRED AND FIFTY WORDS!!!!??>??> No way!!!!!---Yes--WAY
Carry on
Good luck
Wy
Edited by Wyman Lloyd (05/27/11 07:01 PM)
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