JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Mentor Questions Forum Why don't great songs make it?

I've been browsing over the comments on the "Basics of Songwriting" Thread and it came to me that there are some great songs on albums that never seem to break out of the pack and hit their stride.
Some of the ones I like are "DIDN'T I" (Kim Richey), Keb Mo "Baby Blue", "SUNSET BOULEVARD" Lynn Miles or "Rust" by her.
So what does it say about timing for release of a song or what?
Thought it might make an interesting thread because there's a lot of good material out there.
Wyndham

Hey Wyndham!

13 billion - it's a B - artists on MySpace alone, 200 slots every year on the radios! Offers outweighs demand, that's why!

On the bright side, great songs have a way to find their niche. Doesn't mean they'll make you a millionaire, though, LOL!

Take care, Yann

Alternatively, you could ask why the charts are so full of rubbish when there is so many good artists and great songs around that never get heard.

Oh I know that this is one of those unanswerable question but I thought it might prompt so ideas.
YANN, are we talking MC Dougals hamburger music shack.
Any way just a thought. Wyndham

Again, probably the biggest "chicken or egg" argument in the songwriting world. Everybody hears stuff they just don't get and say "How did that crap get on there?" And everyone has songs, artists,musicians, labels, publishers that they just KNOW are perfect but never seem to "get a break."

It's been that way since the beginning of music, particularly recorded music. There are many one hit wonders, actually that is more prevalant with people who are long careers. There are songs that should have never even gotten close but take over the charts for a while. What is the Marcarena?

But the bottom line is Hey, it worked with the only people that matter, the people that buy the records. And contrary to popular belief, record companies just don't sit around and say "Hey let's put out the biggest piece of crap we can and see how we can fool people." When your reputation, financial livelihood and security of your families are on the line, a lot goes into those decisions.

And in this day of You Tube videos, there is more of an fan base element to it.

A friend of mine wrote a song called "I Pray for You." which breaks about every rule of modern songwriting. It talks bad bout a woman, really piles on the insults. "I pray your plane crashes...a pot hits you on the head..." etc. Man, pretty insulting.

But they did a You Tube video, it started out getting hits and the next thing you know it is number 34 on the charts. A major producer hears it, signs it to his record company, RESHOOTS the video with a hollywood hottie actree, Jamie Priestly and they shoot it up to about number 10.

You can never figure it out. Conversely, several songs you hear on the radio, (again I am talking primarily country here) will have been written up to 8-10 years before. Mac Macanally had a number one Kenny Chesney song that he had done as an artist 21 years before.

Music by committee. Don't try to figure it out.

MAB

Hi Marc, as usual I'm being tongue in cheek and your being deadly serious, I haven't listen to the charts since I was a teenager, i do see stuff on TV but it doesn't do anything for me, you know all these slick video with half naked people gyrating to a badly programmed drum beat and monotonous synth riffs. I'm so glad I'm not a teenager any more and can just ignore it.

I do find lots of great stuff all over the place on the internet, all those music sites, yes there is a lot of rubbish and it takes a little time and patience but you can find something that you like and can consider good if you trawl around a bit.

I think the country charts will be a lot different from our national charts which is mainly pop music aimed at teenagers, as it always has been. I've heard a lot of good stuff on here and some of it may be a hit one day ... good luck to them if it takes 10 years then better late than never.

This is something that always is hard to accept, but we all know it's true: charts don't list the best songs, they list the most popular songs.

We listen to what moves us...it's rarely a matter of playing the very best song.

This is an interesting topic. I first noticed this phenomenon in 1976 when Gordon Lightfoot's "Summertime Dream" album came out. It was following up on his previous album "Sundown" which had the monster hit song of the same name on it.

"Summertime Dream" has "Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" on it and it was, indeed, a monster hit. But it was like the 5th best song on the album

I joke, of course - but that has to be the most consistently high quality album I've ever listened to - not a wasted cut in the bunch.

Only one other song (Race Among the Ruins) on that album got any play to speak of but not much. And some really beautiful songs like "I'm Not Supposed to Care", "Spanish Moss", "The House You Live In", and "Never Too Close" didn't get any play at all, near as I can tell.

I kept waiting to hear some of them on the radio and never did. I would have thought that the record company, given the success of Edmund Fitzgerald, would have pushed some more singles....

Well, it matters to Gordon more than to me I guess - I can listen to them any time I want

Scott

It's not a one on one match up. I might, in one year, buy cd's by A, B, C, D, and E. Someone else might buy albums by A, F, G, H, and J. Again, a third person might muy albums by A, K, L, M and N. "A" becomes the most popular album among us three, but might not be either of our most favorite album. Could even be the least favorite album that all three of us bought that year. But...it's the most popular among us. With larger numbers it gets wierder.

One man's junk is another man's treasure
Sometimes these things just don't measure

Well,
I suspect all good songs eventually get cut assuming they get heard by those that listen for the hits. I have heard stories of someone passing a song over to someone else that they thought was right for another Artist. No doubt a lot of good songs get lost in the shuffle. I once sent some songs to a request. They asked for more songs. I was informed that they went thru 2000 songs for the Album. Keep Pitching. You have just as good a chance as songwriter's anywhere.

I doubt if the Gorden Lightfoot album was released today it would get any play. Some groups are being rediscovered by the newer generation, some aren't. just interesting how others see this issue.
Wyndham

"A" would be known as the "lowest common denominator", which also explains such phenomena as crappy shows on TV and Budweiser beer being sold in bars.

You are absolutely correct! BTW, has anyone noticed how much Rolling Rock and Labatt Blue have gone down in quality since being purchased by Anheuser-Busch InBev? (What? This isn't the Thread Hijacking thread?)

Exactly, Coin and Kevin. The thing about finding the "most popular" whatever, is that you are finding the LCD ( or actually, simply the CD...common denominator, we haven't seen the fraction yet so don't know if it is "least" or not...hmmm...the CD of cd's LOL.). Well, the "most popular" beer among 20,000,000 people might only be the favorite beer of 2,000 people. Being the most popular anything is never an indicator of what is best or even what is most highly regarded. That is why a so called "great" (whatever that means) song doesn't make it.

If one wants to determine greatness in music, one must first realize that it is subjective. One must account for taste (for which there is no accounting ). So a decision must be made. Great according to whom? Well, there's my opinion, which is the only one that counts for me, and then there is everyone else's, which I may or may not share. If one wants to be "subjective" which is futile but the attempts may be interesting, then one decides that they might seek the collective opinion of critics, academia, peers, or the general public. Trying to equate any notion of "greatness" with sales is not reliable. Better to ask millions of people what they feel is "great" music. Still, if 20,000,000 people didn't think Gordon Lightfoot was great, I'd disagree.

....and how Little Debbie Snack cakes have gotten smaller. Oh how the great have fallen; Music to beer to snack cakes, civilization crumbles before our eyes. Hijacking my own thread, slow day at flat rock.
BTW, Is this how new art is born? A bunch of misfits and malcontents sitting under an Oak tree with a beer and snack cake and guitar in the summer heat of Luckenbach,Tx coming up with new music, lets do it.
Wyndham

I find a lot of music that is just great, but is nowhere near "making it"...I actually stopped listening to any radio but MN Public Radio, classical and jazz. I guess as long as that music continues to "make it" into my MP3 player I'm a happy dude.

There are also many different levels of "making it." Having no aspirations to be a signed artist I have a very different definition. I once went to a local coffeehouse too see a group of young musicians there and they covering a song of mine. I thought...this is as cool as it gets. This song "made it" as far as I was concerned.

Cheezo,

That is actually THE way you should look at it. What are any of us doing any of this for? To share what we do with as many people as we can. Having a song performed is better than not having a song performed. Having a great sounding representation on a song is much better than having it limited in it's appeal. Having someone else cover a song is much better than just keeping it to yourself.

Making money at it,getting fame, is all a great thing. But often not all it's cracked up to be and there are, as you say, many definitions of "success." I would say that you have found a nice little part of it. You can say something that a lot of people who are writers can't. That you are in the marketplace and are being represented. I would say that counts for quite a bit. Congratulations.

MAB

Marc is right. Over the years, I've made an unscientific study in the music business. More people who are doing this for the love of it, success or not, tend to stay with it. People who are doing this to become "hit" songwriters, singers, etc., usually quit in a few years (and often after spending way too much money on it.)

For sure! Hundreds and hundreds of posts here discussing possible copyright disputes, how to pitch, what to write, what not to write...after a while my eyes start to cross, because all those concerns strike me as being very focused on some future moment, sitting by an Olympic-sized pool under the palm trees, being rich.

When the whole time, the greatest joy is right there in your hands!

I'm all about people going for music as a career...but never forget the simple miracle of music that gave you the idea in the first place. Concentrating on that will answer a lot of these questions about "what to write", because the hardest thing to find out there are great songs with integrity. There are already a whole lot of songs that sound like they were written for an assignment. Focus on writing songs, playing songs, being the best you can be...and all those other possibilities just might have an even better chance of happening. But if they don't, you won't be so disappointed...

I have never,ever, met one hit writer or artist who said ":I am doing this for the money." Ever. They are all doing it because they can't NOT do it. They move to places like LA, New York and Nashville because there is no where else to go in their own areas.

Some get successful, most don't. Most quit. ninty nine point nine per cent of people that do this, will quit very quickly after really trying the business side. Those that stay with it have a genuine love that is not determined by chart success or monetary value.

You don't choose music.
Music chooses you.

MAB

(PS. Yeah, I already wrote that)

Marc, the love of God & music is what drives me to write what we write.
I have no idea if it's good or not. Our work says what we feel compelled to say.
My day job is making pottery. It has been my craft for 25 years. In the time I have been around artist, both musically and visually, I have seen first hand those that don't learn how to protect their creative work will be exploited.
Many artist are very naive about the value of their work, some don't want to know the biz side because of a wealth of reasons.
I mentioned in this thread how some contest MAKE the artist sign over their rights as a condition of entering the contest.
So I am one that comes to the table with questions that I feel most people should ask about any group of people or any business association, it's just good common sense.
Willy Nelson sold the rights to one of his songs"Around the family Bible" (Not the correct title)for $50 now when he puts that on his album he has to paid for the use.
Sometimes we can learn by others actions.
I don't know if we'll ever have someone use our work on their CD, chances are we won't and that's alright too.
I most likely will record, produce and publish our own CD just because it cost too much to pay for studio time and singers and I have enough computers and software to do an reasonable job . It will not be nearly as professional as it might be but it will be as well produced as I can make it.
I'm not saying this to put down the Nashville system and the fellowship that is as important as it is to those who live the life.
I'm also not saying all of this because I seek fame and fortune, because Gospel is the stepchild of music Biz, so not a lot of $$$ there.
This is just my POV but unless you see music or any creative endeavor as the business that it is, the good, bad ,& other your likely to pay for the learning with more bumps than necessary and I've had my fair share of bumps.
Wyndham

Wyndham,

The song you are talking about with Willie Nelson was "Crazy" which was a big hit for Patsy Cline and is a standard today. That was in the late 50's and changes in the 1973 copyright law made changes that addressed that. Songwriters can no longer "Sell" their interests in songs. They can "assign" their publishing share, but can't give anything away. At least not legally. Since then Willie has done just fine in his career.

Nashville is only one part of a very large musical world. People come to this town because they like the neighborhood and because it is easy to negotiate and meet like minded people. But people write, record, perform all over the world with varying degrees of success.

I never suggest that people "HAVE to move to Nashville, in fact I spend a lot of time either convincing people NOT to or helping them prepare themselves for visits or a move. I am the musical equivalent of the tortise. Slow, methodical, but usually get people to where they want to be.

I think as long as you ask questions, be around people who can give you information you can't get yourself, you will be just fine. Do your material the best you can, always represent yourself well and be open to opportunities that come your way. Touch people's lives in positive ways and help other people. It always comes back.

Good luck.

MAB

Hey Marc,
It's sometimes hard to write a POV without sounding a bit harsh or overly critical. In any creative area there is a huge dropout rate because the love affair in one's mind is far from the reality of day to day life, but that goes for almost everything.
The song I referenced was from the NPR interview from several weeks ago and "Crazy" as well as 2 other huge hits were written in a span of a week, so we don't know when genius hits, that for sure.
Music maybe be one of the most elusive crafts. A painter paints a landscape, a potter makes a vase, but music is all in the imagination of the songwriter then singer then audience.
I my mind, Nashville is both a place, tangible, real, atmospheric and a larger concept. The way you describe Nashville makes it come alive in others concept of Nashville that's more than the place. So when I mention the Nashville scene, it's more than the place, again my POV.
This is a great forum,case in point is your mentioning the 1973 copyright changes. I knew that creative work has a copyright from it's creation, but not the part about Assigning vs Selling.
Good to have you willing to share info on the inside working that can't be found as easily elsewhere.
Thanks Wyndham

Wyndham,

My definition of Nashville is "filling up the well of the soul." There are things in every area of the town that stir creativity. In multiple clubs, every night, there are writers nights. There are meetings at places like NSAI every day. There are various seminars and workshops continually. If you want to be around like minded people, you will probably find a group of people just like you. All it takes is a starting place.

We have a web site called www.musicstartshere.net. It is made up of videos from writers, artists, publishers, song pluggers, record people, producers, etc. all giving their perspective on the town. That is pretty much what we are, a loosely associated group of distant cousins. Or disfunctional children that won't grow up.

Most everybody here are helpful, friendly and always open to talking about their opinions on the business. That doesn't mean everyone is going to roll out the red carpet. Far from it. And there is plenty of bitterness here. For anyone who has been here over ten years has seen their world be made free.

But there is much to be positive about. That is what I try to present here. And there are plenty of other areas around the country and world that have vibrant things going on. I just present the town I live in.

Hope you can visit us sometime.

MAB

Had a conversation with a client today. He's sold his business and is sitting on a pile of cash. I called him with an opportunity in film, and since he's financed stuff like this before, I though maybe he'd want to pursue it. I'm not going to tell you what it is, but from what my contact told me, there's a "perfect storm" coming around this movie's "core" and I was able to verify this.

But he said no because he's learned that no matter how good a movie is, there's no guarantee it will get distribution or be a hit, and independent stuff just does not have much of a chance against the big studios. He also learned from a film mentor that no one knows what makes a hit film. Being "in the biz", he was also able to attend some film festivals around the world where he saw movies that were amazing, but never got distribution ( film festivals like Cannes or our own now world leading TIFF, are all about matching distributors with films)

Sound familiar?

Same exact deal. Try to figure out what the public wants.

MAB

Marc,check your URL. This site http://www.musicstartshere.net/ looks like a domain snatched up by folks trying to redirect to other sites.
I lost one of my domain names when I missed the expiration and someone else bought it from under me.
Wyndham

edit: http://www.musicstartshere.org

Wyndham,

You are right. It is: http://musicstartshere.org/

I am involved in a lot of things and can never get the .coms. .orgs and .nets all straight. I type fast but am a dunce when it comes to doing a lot of the tech stuff. That is why I have a really great girlfriend. LOL!

The Music Starts Here site was started last year by Doak Turner, myself and Will Carter, a representative of the Chamber of Commerce here.We have worked a bit with the Chamber on developing a "Chamber of Commerce for the music industry in Nashville. This site is a first step. It has videos featuring people on publishing, writing, recording, networking, performing, etc.
I do several videos on coming from outside the town and things you can do in your own neighborhood to get ready for a trip here.

I hope you will visit and find something that helps you. thanks for pointing out what I missed.

MAB

Yann:
I got in trouble for questioning numbers before, but there is no way that there are 13 billion (with a "b") artists on MySpace. Did you mean songs, or am I making a fool of myself asking this question?
Ott

Ott,

There are 13 Billion downloads a month on the Internet. There are around 30 million artists listed with You Tube, web sites, Facebook, My Space, etc.Those numbers are from organizations like ASCAP and BMI.They are talking about in a very short time the Internet will be totally out of availible space.

MAB

Ott,

yeah, what Marc said. My bad

Most of the times, I can get confused - especially with numbers - doing different things at the same time I write comments on the Net. I started a sentence and ended with another. Must be those 2854 (or maybe it was 8542?) phone calls in between =D

Anyway, thanks for pointing out and correcting my mistake, both of you. But as you can see, Ott, while I got the numbers wrong, the general idea stays identical: an oversaturated market.

Have a great day, gentlemen!

yann

Yann,

YOU get confused? I can't keep anything straight. It is hard to do so though, no matter what. The point is that yeah, a LOT of people are out there trying to do this.

MAB

Whilst I agree that no record company sets out to deliberately release a load of crap...I sometimes wonder at the thought process that went into deciding the crap they do release. Even more mind boggling is the decision from the so called discerning public to buy this crap and make it a hit. I am referring generally to pop music and not specifically country but I believe the same failings applies there.

Look at the way American Idol has changed the face of pop/country music. A lotta high production values, much less on vocal quality.
If I lost 150 lbs, got a sex change op, a face & body lift, and took 40 yrs off my age, I'm sure I could compete in AI. Oh the voice thing has to get worked on too.
Looking at the people standing in line to audition, makes me think, as bad as most are, they identify with a peer group I have nothing in common with. This also means that my songs are most likely going to be tailored to my peer group, which is getting smaller, and not to the market that buys.
Carry this one step further, pitching a song to a publisher who sees a 14-30 yr old market by someone generationaly(old as dirt) challenged might be a problem. If you get someone to pitch the song, can there be this same issues, preconceived biases
For those who know, something to it or not?
Wyndham

We are now 70% likely to hear new music when someone sends a link to a web site or an MP3. That means someone is forwarding this stuff. That means the audience is more in control than they have ever been before, which is why American Idol have the texting voting such a huge componant. you can't figure out the audience.

Wyndam, everytime we start talking about the age factor, I have to say this:

How many over 40 guys were up there screaming "PAUL,PAUL, PAUL!"
in 1964 when the Beatles played the Ed Sullivan show?" Music has ALWAYS been marketed to younger people.

That is why you need to be opening up to find younger artists to write with and be your voice. Our challenge is saying what we want to say, but saying it in "Their vocabulary."

How much money do you spend a month on purchasing music?
That should tell you something. If most people who are fans for your music are your age, how much do THEY spend on music?

The answer should present itself.

MAB

If I remember the old TV clips about the Beatles, I don't recall seeing a single guy screaming "Paul, Paul, Paul!" On the film clips, it was all young ladies.
And no, I don't mean to come across as a male chauvinistic pig. What I have noticed on the awards shows in recent years is -- what do I call it, the mosh pit? It's all those beccoming young people, right in front of the stage, waving their arms to the tune, and acting like rabid fans. Do they audition to get their 15 minutes? And most of them seem to be attractive young ladies. Not complaining, just pointing out the staging. Ott

Ott,

Women have been attracted to music since David had his lyre back in Biblical times. I think he really packed them in at the mosh pit at the Collisium. Getting a favorite rock star, rushing the stage and screaming their guts out.

Al Jolson had them screaming in his day. On Frank Sinatra's first matinee his manager paid girls to feint. Then so many did it on instinct, he didn't have to pay a dime. The Beatles, Elvis,on to Justin Bieber, that is the tradition of 16 year old girls.

In some of the retirement homes where I have played, they will often drop their teeth in excitement.


MAB

Marc, you were great!!! Uh...anyone see my choppers?

Mike,

A lot of people have noticed I don't perform as much as I once did. Actually it is because most clubs won't insure me. They are afraid I'll fall and break my hip. It is also harder to get my walker over the monitor speakers.

MAB

Marc, I know you're no prima donna, but maybe in your next gig contract, ask for a ramp. Far too difficult to get a walker up the stage steps.

Me, I make sure I have an extra tube of polident in my gig bag so I don't spit out my dentures singing "shame shame shame"

John,

I am trying to be as peppy as I can be. But the "Ensure" is working well.

MAB

Sorry to hear you're being taken in by that supplement scam Marc. Me, I use red blue algae in gelatin capsules from a long dormant volcano to maintain my vitality.

oooohhhh I had to jump on this one.
The internet run out of space?
Naaaa
So kep writing and uploading those song guys. we have a loooong way to go.

How many IP addresses does IPv6 support? Well, without knowing the exact implementation details, we can get a rough estimate based on the fact that it uses 128 bits. So 2 to the power of 128 ends up being 340,282,366,920,938,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 unique IP addresses.

How do you say that, though? 340 trillion, 282 billion, 366 million, 920 thousand, 938 — followed by 24 zeroes. There’s no short way to say it in numbers without resorting to math.


The very large IPv6 address space supports a total of 2128 (about 3.4×1038) addresses - or approximately 5×1028 (roughly 295) addresses for each of the roughly 6.5 billion (6.5×109) people alive today. In a different perspective, this is 252 addresses for every observable star in the known universe.


as for the original question
Why don't great songs make it?

I suppose it depends on what is meant by "Making it"

I think mostly it is because they aren't great songs.

Dang! I swear I was just munching on an Oatmeal Cream Pie and thinking it was smaller than it used to be....

Bill,

Another report yesterday on Fox news that the Internet is reaching total capacity. Google and Facebook are both talking about this. I don't pretend to know any of this but if the peopel who are actually making their entire lively hood off of that are worried about it, I would bet they may know something we don't.

MAB

Example of persistence: From what I understand, Joan Jett shopped "I Love Rock and Roll" to 22 different publishers before starting her OWN label to release it. She believed in the song that much, even after 22 publishers turned it down. The rest is history!

"Whatever you vividly imagine
Strongly desire
Inherently believe
and enthusiastically act upon
MUST inevitably come to pass."

I believe this to be true...it's nature's law.

Polly,

We all love those kinds of stories. I'll tell you another one. There is a friend of mine named Eddie Swartz. Eddie is a hit writer and I met him in Canada a few years ago. We run into each other from time to time and have done some workshops together. He tells one of my favorite of those kinds of stories .

Eddie was originally from Toronto but moved to New York in the mid 70's. He had a writing deal in the 80's with Sony music who was starting to do things in America. One day he wrote this song, and played it for the company exectutives. After listening one of the Vice Presidents looked him in the eye and very stone faced said "that is the worst song ever written in the history of this company. NEVER PLAY that for anyone."

Eddie thought they were BSing but found out quickly they were not. They didn't like it and instructed him that if he wanted to continue to get a check he would just "forget that song." He did but would bring it up from time to time when new staff members came around. Several song pluggers heard it and everyone hated it.

Finally he convinced them to do a demo on it. They still hated it. After the recording session, they told the engineer to erase that tape and never play it for anyone. The engineer gave Eddie one cassette copy and told him "It could be my job if you play it around. Just keep it to yourself."

Now all of this takes about 8 years to go forward. Like all companies, there is corporate turn over. People get fired,new ones get hired to take their place. One day they have a new songplugger and he is listening to all of Eddie's stuff. He said "I have heard all your stuff, is there anything you are holding back?"

Eddie told him that he had one but was afraid to play it. The plugger talked him into it and they played it on the stereo in the office. All of a sudden there was a knock on the door and this very attractive brunette stuck her head in and asked "WHAT IS THAT SONG? I WANT IT FOR MY NEXT RECORD!" She had heard it through the wall.

She did indeed record it. The singer's name was Pat Benetar. The song was "HIT ME WITH YOUR BEST SHOT."

Never know what will work.

MAB

Marc
I think the odds of the internet collapsing are about a good as Taylor Swift cutting "Always Something Good".
BTW we need to finish that one. I did a little rewrite on one section that I thought was weak.

There is an old Hopi Indian legend that talks about a giant spider that weaves a web over the entire world at the time of the end of the world.
Wyndham