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#776042 - 12/03/09 03:58 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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mattbanx
Serious Contributor
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 1384
Loc: Northern Minnesota
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Aha, John, but not everyone has the same interpretation.
There are a number of musicians that the clicks here may not find professional at all that many listeners like.
And I never stated there is no need for a clicker.
It is that too often many musicians try to be so perfect that all feeling and emotiveness gets lost.
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#776119 - 12/03/09 09:24 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: mattbanx]
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Mike Caro Substudio
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 7782
Loc: NY
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The click or use of a metronome is not the secret of "life"
First and foremost it's an aid,when your timing is not good or when your learning MUSIC it teaches you and helps you.
That is why you saw those large triangle metronomes on top of pianos and students practicing there piano with them since who knows when.
Playing with a click or working on proper techniques will not make you sterile sounding and emotionless.
If someone has no musical groove or soul so to speak it's got nothing to do with a metronome. 
George Benson & Carlos Santana play with tremendous feeling and emotion and I'd bet my life they can play to a metronome.
It's just seems an excuse not a perception.
Cause here's the deal and bottom line, when you play live and jam you DON"T use the click track. Recording with the click has it's big importance, practicing with it has it's big importance..
Which all leads to ONE important thing.
Being able to play without it........
And nobody ever bringing it up when they hear you. See?
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#776380 - 12/04/09 10:21 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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in2piano
Top 200 Poster
Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 1304
Loc: Oregon, USA
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David...
I was pretty fortunate to be around a pretty fair drummer when I was young and whom I admired greatly.A great composer and musician as well...these guys IMHO were consummate pro's....recorded under the American Grammaphone label...he had a fine keyboard player by the name of Jackson Berkey if I recall correctly...their stuff was always so crisply produced and always sounded heads and shoulders above many others of that time...and still on a vinyl LP..lol.
His name is Chip Davis of Mannheim Steamroller...If you don't know of them I would wager you have heard some of their music..especially around this time of year...And YES always used a clicktrack as I understand....
Kind of an ebb and flow thing...Oh you are gonna nail it occassionally but not for long...it's only a matter of time...and yes I apologize for the pun (a wee bit)..lol.
Jim and others said it well...
Larry
_________________________
Can't find the stairway to 'heaven'...but I know where the elevator is.
Each of us has cause to think with deep gratitude of those who have lighted the flame within us" - Albert Schweitzer.
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#776597 - 12/05/09 08:41 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: in2piano]
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mattbanx
Serious Contributor
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 1384
Loc: Northern Minnesota
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My long term goal to begin with was to do musical pieces and have gone to places such as film sites.
Also so musicians can better determine what instrument they think I am better on for a full set of songs.
I would not be ignorant to such tools as a click track with those professionally intended songs.
Even now I snap my fingers to imitate a drummer at the beginning of a show slapping their drum sticks when I do a track.
I just don't want to rely on click tracks through an entire duration of a song so my playing will be that much sharper.
It sure has not hurt with the smaller, easier structures.
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#776599 - 12/05/09 09:14 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: mattbanx]
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Johnny Daubert
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 01/27/01
Posts: 7185
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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It is that too often many musicians try to be so perfect that all feeling and emotiveness gets lost.
That usually comes with the beginning stages of learning HOW to play with a click. I hear mine,,,"I think",,but mainly, I feel the timing and then express away like there;s no tomorrow. I didn;t do that in the early stages. It was probably emotionless, as you say. Just need to do it often enough to where the emotion and epressions are fully there,,,,but in time!
Then, wen playing with a drummer that may want to surge here and there,,,,the good sense ofo sticking with the clicker has us sticking to the drummer, no matter what. With out drummer, Marnie will sometimes not use the click and experiment with stepping up the chorus one click,,from his now good sense of timing, from knowing the steady click in the first place through much time on it beforehand.
So,,,it is mostly with not using the click enough that leads to not playing with emotion with one. They just should play with all the time! Ha!!!
Thanks Matt! Good to talk with ya,
John
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#776608 - 12/05/09 10:44 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: Johnny Daubert]
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mattbanx
Serious Contributor
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 1384
Loc: Northern Minnesota
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I used nothing but clickers and borrowed samples with the first instrument I started with.
Many of the musicians I grew up with did metal and punk.
What I played on the synth was an offshoot of the same form, from PIL to Tubeway Alley.
None of the performers that I saw had a click guiding them all the way through a set.
I saw this as a no nonsense performers site.
Maybe I have a complex from how I started or do not take responses the way I should.
I just try to go with what I can assess will not make me any worse with my song ideas.
My recordings are bass dominant, which also serves in the rythmn section, as well as the maim melody or hook.
I have to push myself harder to do anything beyond a 4/4 rythmn if I want to keep better time.
The playing may never be spot on, but at least tighter.
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#776720 - 12/06/09 02:13 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: mattbanx]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8077
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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The performers you saw and grew up with probably had a fairly decent sense of rhythm. If you have not got a good sense of timing then you need something to keep you from straying off the basic beat. Listening to your songs I can say that you either have a poor sense of timing or you do not have the recording and editing skills to edit seamlessly. IMO probably a bit of both. Your songs all have a very simple beat but even following that is proving very difficut for you. That is why a click track is essential to help you follow your own beat. You seem to want to experiment but refuse to lear the basics first. Before people can experiment, improv or elaborate on something they need to be able to play the basics.
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#776728 - 12/06/09 02:58 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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mattbanx
Serious Contributor
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 1384
Loc: Northern Minnesota
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Good enough, I went with what I was inspired with and pulled it out of my head and figured it to be an improvement.
So be it.
My main point about it was not trying to be Brahms or flunking in class with basic fundamentalists, it was about what better holds my accuracy with whatever you make of it.
There are people that can not touch their nose with the tip of their finger sober and I'm one of them.
Maybe I should try some simple instrument and voice tracks with occasional covers.
But thanks for the take.
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#776881 - 12/07/09 05:46 AM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: mattbanx]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8077
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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Matt your failure to embrace conventional ways of performing and recording does you no favours. You also seem incapable of listening to well meant advice and constructive criticism from people with experience and talent. This attitude will hold you back and stymy any talent you already have. Clever people will at least try different things and alternative ways before labelling them as not for me.
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#777232 - 12/08/09 02:21 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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mattbanx
Serious Contributor
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 1384
Loc: Northern Minnesota
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I don't get in to the musician's mindset.
It gets too much in to the ego bruising, highs and lows.
I just wanted to kick out something that reflects me for my love of music.
Instead of being a "real musician" I guess I just want my expression with some structure.
But I would reserve this site maybe if I were out to try one area at a time.
Because there are certain influences I would like to learn with the members for that.
This was a great topic.
It really brought a sense of closure.
Happy Holidays!
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#778972 - 12/15/09 09:13 AM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: mattbanx]
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niteshift
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 12/17/06
Posts: 4053
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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I've never been in a studio where a click track wasn't used, even initally, when track laying. It's exceptionally important, especially in these days of digital audio edits, to be able to tranfer one passage to another point in a song, or create an "overture" without timing issues. No-one I've ever met will play an entire song at the same tempo all the way through.
If you want to make the whole production process difficult, then don't start with a click track. You'll wish you did in the end.
cheers, niteshift
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#780344 - 12/19/09 10:53 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: niteshift]
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mattbanx
Serious Contributor
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 1384
Loc: Northern Minnesota
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I begin to believe that maybe I don't understand the basic concept of these click tracks and forms.
Nite and others here seem to be able to bring themselves in to their recordings using them.
I have a mound of synths and have relied on what is electronic and not touched by human hands before the internet.
But there are definitely good arguments here for how click tracks also do not stink.
I can not do a straight line on a 4 beat but still believe that the metered enviroment is not a valid tract on performance.
I looked at it like building endurance riding a bike up a hill, but there also needs to be a direction.
But then there is the recorded presentation.
I thought I was doing conventional pop with my 2 new recordings.
Though there is what people hear on the listening end as well as doing something for myself.
I do not dismiss any of the talents here. But I knew members here were already not crazy with the brand of music I prefer.
I am attempting different rythmns and clickers and have re-investigated this subject.
It is not so much of what stinks as much as what can better one's delivery.
The only question I have to the initial poster, is that if the performance is considered good enough to begin with, then more trust should be given without that big click track.
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#783868 - 01/02/10 04:02 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: david Leinweber]
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Joy Boy
Serious Contributor
Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 695
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Click tracks work for some situations and not for others, like folks here said.
The first time I went in to the studio to do a promo, I naively prepared the rhythm guitar part without a click track, not having ever done any one step at a time multi-track recording.
I had the part nailed, but the click track screwed me up. I actually asked if there was something wrong with the computer. The engineer, who's a good friend of mine now, almost busted a gut laughing.
Anyway, it prompted me to make a study of tempo -- not just playing to click tracks, but listening to recordings, illegally playing a shaker to music in the car, walking in rhythm, so to speak, learning a little drums....
Now I can play with click tracks if need be, and my tempo skills are light years better when there isn't one around. I listen better, all those good things.
You can learn to play expressively with a click track or metronome. Once you do, your understanding of groove will surprise you.
On the practical side, if you think the click track makes your playing flat -- play a scratch take to the click track and then play the keeper track to the scratch track. It might be easier to be "expressive," but in time with another guitar backing you.
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#783973 - 01/03/10 04:09 AM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: david Leinweber]
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Mike Caro Substudio
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 7782
Loc: NY
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I've done some nice stuff using clicks (and our engineer virtually insists on it). However, I also think they tend to limit inuitive tempo changes that a great live-band might have, and they also tend to flatten the playing.
David
Matt posed this question to the original poster
"The only question I have to the initial poster, is that if the performance is considered good enough to begin with, then more trust should be given without that big click track."
A GREAT LIVE BAND, so yeah why bother with the click.... otherwise what performance was or is considered good enough to begin with?
And with a GREAT live band comes a must have great drummer. And still just maybe he is in the studio and says to the engineer,
"Give me the click in my phones only" the rest will play off me"
Besides great drummers play in great time in groove with NO click. Why? because they spent more hours than you can imagine practicing and playing with one.. that's why.
If I'm not mistaken Matt plays alone, and mostly without programming or use of drum machine/loops etc...
So perhaps he hits the record button and then beings to play.
The first track whatever instrument it is is going to be out of time accept from the perspective of "In time to itself"
That's wonderful, but now the next track played over it is going to be off period, in trying to stay with the other track, hence a poor performance which is the number one thing to kill a recording.
This whole click track thing is not just a question of preference. It is all depending on WHAT your doing and how you are going about doing it.
Timing is part of music no matter how much we would like to ignore it, or whatever trouble arrives from it.
You do what is needed for the task at hand.
The CLICK track is only an issue when TIMING is an issue.
Joyboy - great post...
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#783975 - 01/03/10 04:17 AM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: Mike Caro Substudio]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8077
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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Why do orchestras need a conductor?....Same reason why studios use clicks. I am sure those guys can keep pretty good time but they still need someone to sync everythig up. BTW it does not have to be an electronic click it can be a simple looped drum pattern.
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#783976 - 01/03/10 04:27 AM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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Mike Caro Substudio
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 7782
Loc: NY
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Why do orchestras need a conductor?....Same reason why studios use clicks. I am sure those guys can keep pretty good time but they still need someone to sync everythig up. BTW it does not have to be an electronic click it can be a simple looped drum pattern.
GREAT point Jim, great point.
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#788246 - 01/17/10 02:34 AM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: Mike Caro Substudio]
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mattbanx
Serious Contributor
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 1384
Loc: Northern Minnesota
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I knew I was not in a privalidged spot to mention anything about exacting rythmn.
I recall my first posts here vividly.
The thing that I did not do coming here was to look in to the forms I was working on here as much as having an inkiling of some type of influence and inspiration for what I had in mind.
But for anyrthing else, what is certrain is that depending on whatever one uses as an aid for rythmn and song, what is made of song structure is of primiary importance.
When I did styles more accostomed to this site, I went in thinking that that would be my best, as hilarious as that sounds.
I would not be out to explain my musical worth except for the fact that members gave me their time here and have given thorough critiques.
I don't get in to the musician's mentaliity..
I hear where I live for example of the wonderful togetherness of the jazz and blues fests in South Dakota and Minnesota and how one person in a hapless project was seen in another individual to make that happen.
But my passions are not going to end for what is not seen in me.
That is pretentious.
I may as well do everything around a docile drum machine if I think that.
If someone sees something in me, I would like that to be for what I am.
I have discovered that my expression is a personal thing because I have never been the band type.
The 3 recordings I have up on my link in my sig should be considered my best.
Doing the forms in a sense is like math, but I may not be really good at that.
I can only go with what I do through consensus.
I intend to bounce things up that inspire me and do things that are more formidible.
But if anything will be seen in the song idea to begin with, then a metrenome or click should not be relied on in the first place.
I intend the same thing with exacting the right songwriting and playing to go along with that.
I have my recordings posted chronologically at Soundclick along with what I have at f3 and songcast.
In every estimation with consensus I have I should be considered better.
But at the same time I would like to stick to what this site does more of since that is what I am out to learn more of.
So I get the point of Jim and Mike sub.
Just not all the "prove me" thinking.
I would have really wished that my recordings were digged by the members.
But I knew this site was critical and had Nashville connections from the onset.
I have my own tracks clicking off in my head.
People may like that less.
But I am out to exact my expression.
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#788247 - 01/17/10 03:20 AM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: mattbanx]
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the songcabinet
Top 100 Poster
Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 3390
Loc: Denmark
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I don't think a practical musicians tool as a click can hold a philosophical discussion like this. A click is really not rocket science, and it has nothing to do with your expression. It's about keeping in time with other tracks, otherwise your 'expression' will sound terrible.
There's really nothing to it IMO, just use it when you need it..
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#788401 - 01/17/10 05:01 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: the songcabinet]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8077
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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Matt it is time to stop analysis and re inventing the wheel. Learn the craft of songwriting, performing and recording techniques properly. There are no shortcuts or easy other options. It is now a lot easier than in past times due to all the technology available to produce decent home recordings. Learn to use the tools to YOUR advantage. These tools including click trcks were put there for a reason. Dismiss them as "not for me" AT YOUR PERIL. When you do not use the technology and proper techniques mistakes and lack of ability show up and are magnified many time over.
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#788553 - 01/18/10 09:22 AM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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PopTodd
Top 200 Poster
Registered: 06/06/01
Posts: 1606
Loc: Western Springs, IL, USA
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I generally like to play/record without a click track; I like the flexibility in tempo. But, if I do start to stray too far off-tempo, I am not opposed to using a click. However, I do generally prefer a more-organic feel, it tends to swing more.
And, yet, I used a click (2 clicks) as an instrument in this song:
"Here"
That is two tracks of click that you hear in the beginning (and throughout), autotuned to be in-key).
So, clicks are good, depending upon how you use them.
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#788621 - 01/18/10 02:09 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: PopTodd]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8077
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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Todd there is nothing wrong with freeform especially if the tempo changes often and there are lots of stops and starts. But if layering or playing different parts you need something to keep time to.
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#802078 - 03/11/10 12:04 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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mattbanx
Serious Contributor
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 1384
Loc: Northern Minnesota
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The early post punk, classic rock, and metal musicians I know of and have had opinions with my recordings on like to go by hand with their instruments.
I like making my own click samples to lead off a recording.
But whatever one can do with even a small thimble of knowledge can be that much more when the technology of clickers and samples is more heavily relied on or in a band situation - hence the emotive approach.
Unless one picks up all the instruments to create in that given genre, their opiinions could just be from any listener.
I was out to go back to the wheel and not hide behind other means.
That being said, just like with the eighties electronic acts, there are people that are more interesting then others that are totally automated and rely on click tracks and samples.
I like the instrument in hand, but the samples are good for the synapses.
I could not look at this site as all that conventional or traditional if I relied on them though.
Where I would use click tracks would be to try and compliment a recording, not rely on.
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#802104 - 03/11/10 03:14 PM
Re: Do Click Tracks Stink???
[Re: mattbanx]
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BIG JIM MERRILEES
Top 20 Poster
Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 8077
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
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Matt FYI the bands you mention most probably use clicks otherwise their layered samples and synths would be all over the place. Genre or style has nothing to do with it. Click tracks is the only way to record properlyand keep in time. We have gone to great lengths to explain about click tracks and WHY they are so important. I have also explained that because you do not use click tracks your recordings are out of sync, jumpy and out of tempo. It does not matter how often you say it you are in the minority and IMO very wrong. Putting it bluntly you are the inexperienced one trying to tell people with vastly more experience how to suck eggs. Listen to your stuff then compare it with say Sub's and see why we use click tracks. Of course you could continue to disregard what we say and learn the hard way.
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